Synthetic motor oil

americanflag · January 2003

driving a truck or a V-8, then the cost of an oil change, even with synthetic, doesn't seem like that big a thing. So out of ignorance and conservativism, I also lean towards the 5k interval. I was 3k but you guys talked me up to 5k BTW!

mralan · January 2003

Are synthetic oil engines considerably cleaner (internally) than DINO engines after many miles?

Anyone see a synthetic oil engine torn down after many thousand miles?

bigorange30 · January 2003

There was a couple of mustangs over on the bobs site that had synthetic compared to dino. The difference was tremendous. The dino engine was dark and stained and the syn one looked like it had been spit shined. They both had approximately 50k miles as I remember.

ruking1 · January 2003

#4961/4962

I also would agree!

mralan · January 2003

Is there any definitive proof which synthetic is best, or is just opinion? I'm considering Royal Purple, Amsoil, or Mobile One. If there's not a huge difference I'm going with M1, because it's much easier to find.

knapp3 · January 2003

Try this one:

http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181031

bluedevils · January 2003

For the most part, those guys don't sound too informed about oil. Definitely not learning and listening as much as folks who post here and on Bob's board. True synthetic oil is a great product, but to conclude that it's clearly far superior based on those pictures from one person's apples and oranges Mustang comparison - well, that's not logical. It sounded like people patting themselves on the back and feeling better about their choice, but not necessarily for a good reason.

SPYDER98 · January 2003

Those stangnet pictures almost seem to good to be true. However if they are, boy do I feel foolish for "shocking my system" switching back to dino at 143k to save a few bucks.
I frankly just got tired of dishing out 50 bucks per synthetic change. I just didn't feel comfortable with 5k mile intervals. Owning a turbo car, the oil has always had a tendency to get dirty very fast. I thought I would feel more comfortable dishing out 20 bucks per 2k mile interval with dino.

But after those pics (if they are really true to the words), I feel I might have a made a mistake..

mralan · January 2003

I spoke with a mechanic who rebuilds engines and he said that full synthetic engines are usually considerably cleaner that DINO engines.

gambiaman · January 2003

Am earlier post said WalMart had 5 qt. containers of Mobil 1 for sale but not all the time. Question - is there a shelf life on the oil or can I stock up next time WalMart has the 5 qt. containers?

jc1973 · January 2003

they will have them in february

gambiaman · January 2003

Am earlier post said WalMart had 5 qt. containers of Mobil 1 for sale but not all the time. Question - is there a shelf life on the oil or can I stock up next time WalMart has the 5 qt. containers?

malachy72 · January 2003

is probably years. The question is , do want to have that oil when the next generation of M1 comes out?

bretfraz · January 2003

You might want an inventory of "old" oil if the next generation of motor oil will not be backward-compatible with what your car requires. That's a real possibility for what comes after API SL rated oils.

Barring that I think a one year supply of oil is fine for storage. Depends on how frequently you change your oil.

tntitan · January 2003

I was also wondering about the shelf life of oil before I ordered my Schaeffers (large quantities have free shipping which is quite a bit with cases of oil). They told me that after about 1 yr or so you would running the risk of some of the additives "breaking up". Just a FWIW.

acelink · February 2003

I am thinking about switching to this brand because I can buy it(1-liter, 10W-30) for about $6.50 in Korea. I used to use Pennzoil 10W-30 Sythentic and I use Mobil1 filters. I would like to hear your opinions on this brand. Thanks.

http://www.petro-canada.ca/eng/prodserv/lubesgreases/automotive/3- - 136.htm

csandste · February 2003

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;- - f=1;t=000266

Here's some specs lifted from that site...

Petro Canada PowerPlus (Synthetic Perf.) 5W30
Visc cSt
@ 40C 60
@100C 10.3
Visc SUV
@ 100F 279
@ 210F 60
Visc. Index 159
Flash C/F 214/417
CCV 2300 @ -25
BorderLine Pumping 10100 @ -35
Sulphated Ash 0.8%

Petro Canada Full Synthetic 5W30
Visc cSt
@ 40C 59
@ 100C 10.2
Visc SUV
@ 100F 274
@ 210F 60
Visc. Index 159
Flash C/F 225/437
CCV @ -25C 2110
BorderLine Pumping @ -35 9000
Sulphated Ash 0.8%

mralan · February 2003

At what mileage interval do you change your M1 oil? I'm thinking about extending to 5k miles with my 03 Dodge Ram V8 truck.

bretfraz · February 2003

I usually do them by 4000 miles but I'm going on 5000 now prior to analysis. If that looks OK I'll stick with 5000 mile changes.

Using 10W-30 Tri Syn, will go to Super Syn when old inventory is used up.

bigorange30 · February 2003

at 7000 miles. The first change looked very good on analysis so I am now going to push it further. Mobil1 gaurantees it for 7500 miles on my QX4. Many people use a 12-15K interval and feel fine with it. If you are going to change it at 5K, you really wasting your money. You do get better protection than with a dino but not any better protection than if you let it go to 7-8K miles/drain.

bretfraz · February 2003

Mobil1 gaurantees it for 7500 miles on my QX4

How exactly does Mobil One guarantee "it" for 7500 miles? What exactly do you have in writing from them?

I'm not comfortable going over 5000 miles between oil changes, regardless of brand. Money is not the primary issue with me. Engine protection is.

But if an oil company is willing to provide me with some sort of written guarantee......

bigorange30 · February 2003

what they say is "You can use the normal driving oil drain interval EVEN if you drive under severe conditions." Keep all the oil receipts and they will pay for any damage that ever happens due to oil. I was like you and was skeptical so I emailed them. They sent me a copy of the warranty. I am now taking mine to 7500 miles in this next drain since that is the interval for normal driving in my QX4 manual.

americanflag · February 2003

or even 3000, then how would a bypass filter help? Blackstone says they make a significant difference. Obviously, it must be because they are cleaning the oil of particulates (does that sound scientific?). Well, if you change it at 3000, are you not also improving the quality of the oil, in only that it is more free of debris?

armtdm · February 2003

Yes, bypas filters work however, how much will they extend the life of an engine is what no one knows. With good maintenance any engine today will go 100,000 + miles, with synthetic and or 3000 mile changes probalby 200,000 + miles. So in reality, the cost and hassle of a bypass (unless you are a trucker) is simply not worth it.

Synthetic at 7500 miles or longer with analsyis will also get you to 200,000 + miels if you can stand driving the same car that long

bigorange30 · February 2003

So, you are agreeing that changing a synthetic every 3000 miles offers no more protection than changing that synthetic at 7000 miles?

armtdm · February 2003

I can agree with that. Beyond 7500 with a synthetic requires analysis IMO. I go over that on two cars but analysis indicates the oil handles it fine,. on others (like my Camry) 7500 is about it.

adc100 · February 2003

I have yet to see an analysis of Mobil 1 over 10K miles. I have done some analysis on 4 cars with Mobil 1. The longest I have gone was 8500 miles and the oil could have gone further. For the other 3 vehicles 7500 miles was a practical limit for me based on results at the 5 and 5K mark. I am really not an Amsoil Oil pusher-but if I were going the 12-15K route it would not be with Mobil 1.

bigorange30 · February 2003

I didn't say most, I said "many" take theirs to 12-15K route. They are still, however, in the minority. I do not take mine that far because I am also not yet comfortable with that. I am going to push it until I see the TBN reducing to below 5 since that will indicate that the additives are breaking down. I see 2 as a minimum acceptable TBN reading.

bluedevils · February 2003

My impression is that a pretty big percentage (20? 40? 80?) of Mobil 1 users change the oil every 5,000 miles or less. There seem to be lots of owners with cherished cars who want to treat their car to "the best" so they use Mobil 1. These folks don't seem interested in extended drains or the cost per mile of lubrication. I.e. cost is not a big concern, nor is draining oil that has plenty of remaining useful life.

ruking1 · February 2003

First of all, synthetic users are definitely in the minority!

My guess is 1-5% MAX. Since Mobil One is reputed to have fully 60% of the synthetic engine oil market, the actual numbers drift down from there.

As most folks on this thread know, I change my Mobil One oil at 15k intervals (usually between 13-15k) Even I would agree that out of Mobil One users, I am probably an even smaller minority.

I have to say that the 15k interval is very boring, in a nice way! Currently, I have a vehicle with just under 100k and have only changed the oil 7 times (15k intervals against a much more normal 34 times (3000 mile interval). This particular vehicle goes into a 60k mile major valve check (and normally gets adjusted at premium dollar rates) The mechanic that tore the valve cover apart and checked the adjustment said that the engine was WAY CLEAN for a vehicle of this mileage and DID NOT need adjustments as it had the factory specs as it came off the assembly line. It is due another 60k miles check (120k mile mark) and I suspect that the results will be pretty similar to the 60k mile mark.

The point is that I am presenting the "minority" report! Unless of course folks do not find that gauge useful. What I am saying is that the results are "boring" and not catastrophic with the 15k intervals. Am I missing something, or is the report boring because I have boring results?

bigorange30 · February 2003

what your point is ruking1. We were not talking about what % of people that use syntetics. Can you restate your post taking into account post #4977 to #4988?

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

...what is boring is the thread, altogether!(:o]

americanflag · February 2003

I read that internet oil book, and I read Blackstone's website. It seems these guys feel oil filtration is very important. Well, then oil intervals would be influenced by the quality of the oil filter. And isn't the best filter an oil change?

ruking1 · February 2003

#4993
You would definitely not think that if you have ever seen a sludged up engine using conventional oil ! The only thing that can get that puppy halfway clean is like a Borsh type internal hot solvent flushing!

If you read the oil book and oil analysis company recommendations, it usually gets down to 3 things: 1. pre oiler 2. double filter system, one bypass (10% small particle filtering), one full. 3. synthetic oils.

1. Why preoilers? Fully 60% of engine wear occurs at start up or more technically, because of metal to metal contact with no oil circulating. (Synthetic oil without preoilers DO NOT remedy this condition)Synthetic oil MAY or MAY NOT have a slight advantage due to the fact the synthetic oil tends to flow quicker and faster in a wide temperature range. 2. Why bypass filters? because 40% of the other 40% of the oil wear (16%) is due to particles under the particle size caught by normal flow through filters. (5-20 microns, I believe) 3. Why synthetic? Well that is the crux of this whole thread!

fleetwoodsimca · February 2003

Some synthetics publicized their ability to keep metal off metal (barrier protection) and to have an affinity to the frictional surfaces, of a nature that held the synthetic oil as a protective film far longer after shut down than was the case for mineral oils. I recall reading very impressive claims from REDLINE Oil. Keep in mind that it is a polyol ester base-- one of very few remaining players in this chemistry. I think the claim about startup protection was assessed as being due to the ester qualities.

ruking1 · February 2003

#4995

Actually part (but not all) of the reason that Redline is unable/unwilling to pass the SL standards test is because it uses too much moly (I believe I read that somewhere) as a anti friction coating device and that compound is a tad less friendly to the new emissions systems. Another stated reason is that Redline is content to SAY it passes the standards, but in fact they have not submitted their products for testing for inclusion. That marketing effort seems to work.

armtdm · February 2003

Same is true for Amsoil in the zinc and phosphorus additives, way above what would pass for the API doughnut.

As to filters, well, I have now formed the opinion that they are worthless in the modern engine and that the oil does all the work. I am going to test this a little in one car. In the past (two analysis also) I have gone 12,000 miles between changes with a filter at 6000 miles. The oil (and filter) currently in this car has about 7500 now and I am not going to change the filter until it reaches 12,000 miles. An analysis at that time will be interesting the hypothesis being that the filter staying in there for 12000 miles at over 6 months will not make a difference in the wear analysis as compared to changing it at 6000 miles.

We see oil change intervals studied, oils etc. but no one has any data on the actual effect of filters on the longevity of a average car (average). Everone seems to agree that if you cut open a fitler you basically find nothing in there (proponents of filters say it is too small to see in the media but it is there. i say who cares, it is too small to do any damage even if the filter was not in place. So, a cheap fram or an expensive mini micron filtering Mobil 1 will not make any difference in extending the life from 100,000-200,000 miles.

Fire away, studies if you have them?

ruking1 · February 2003

#4997

Based on my prior post about the fact that 60% of all engine wear happens on start up, i.e., no oil protection till fully functioning. This probably is the STRONGEST case for PRE OILERS. And the estimation that only 40% of 40% (16%) of wear due to oil particles is due to just under the particle size that most filters filter out, I agree with you. Con currently, this is a strong argument for bypass filtering.

My however is: I am glad the propholactic is available.

So while how long an engine lasts depends on too many real world variables, for discussions sake, let us use 100-200k miles as a basis. Would you not in theory be better off with 60% more miles of wear or 160-320k with pre oilers?

Add in a bypass filtering system which can decrease the wear from 40% total to say 10%, you would add on respectively 48k to
96k? or 208k-416k?

Yet WAIT there is MORE!!! you can consume up to 5x's LESS oil product using synthetic oil!!

So structurally it is VERY feasible to remove or mitigate those variables that MOST wear is attributed.

{(and inexpensive I might add) 200-400 dollars aftermarket price of pre oilers and 200-400 dollars aftermarket price of bypass systems.}

armtdm · February 2003

Well, they work. Are they worth the cost and hassle (assuming you can find a place to put them) NO. Increasing the life of an engine from 200,000-400,000 , not many people will keep a car that long, nor will the rest of the car be around to hold that engine

Great for long haul truckers, not prcaticle for the ave driver. My real issue with the bypass, no place to mount it in todays small glove box space. You also forget that if you wish to sell you car early on in its life (under 5 years) these two products will make the car harder to sell, they are not perceived as enhancements to a car for the ave buyer and will be detrimental to a sale. You will have to remove them, another hassle!

inky4 · February 2003

Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-20 is engineered specifically for Ford, Honda and any other vehicle where a 0W-20 or 5W-20 engine oil is recommended. Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-20 exceeds API SL/CF, ILSAC GF-3, and the performance requirements Ford WSS-M2C-153H specification. This full synthetic formulation provides both exceptional engine protection while providing more efficient operation as indicated by improved fuel economy or greater power when compared to more viscous products

ruking1 · February 2003

#4999

I would agree that the key point is economic feasibility and perception. While there is chest thumping about conservation etc, the truth is that even the environmentalists like massive consumption!!!.

The other practical matter is that pre oilers and bypass products are good for the true conservationists and or some one who travels between 25-50k miles per year. All of these are true minority positions which probably explains that the oem and their markets are well intergrated to each others wants and needs.

americanflag · February 2003

effective, then why wouldn't they be offered as options by the automobile companies or more popular in the aftermarket?

Post #5000, Inky, please see the 5W-20 thread about the new "reduced engine life" oil.

mralan · February 2003

Once you run synthetic oil can you change back to conventional?

americanflag · February 2003

you won't want to change back to conventional.

mralan · February 2003

I've changed to Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 filter @1k miles. The reasons I'm considering changing back to conventional are:
1) price - my first synthetic oil change cost $61
2) my dealer doesn't offer synthetic oil changes and I'd like to document my maintence through my dealership
3) the place I got my oil change doesn't do lube jobs

greenmax · February 2003

There's no problem changing back to dino oil on a new car. Just pick a quality oil like Castrol GTX, Chevron or Pennzoil and you'll be fine.

bigorange30 · February 2003

You're going to Jiffy Lube every 2 weeks to change you're mobil1 oil? Have you studied about this? Even dino users don't change their oil at 1K miles. My mobil1 change costs $45 each and I use the $11 synthetic mobil1 filter. I provide the oil and filter to my Infiniti dealer and he does it for $16.80 labor. How old of a car do you have that it needs a lube job? I haven't known of a car needing that for years due to sealed up bearings.

mralan · February 2003

No, I changed to synthetic when my new truck had 1k miles. I was planning on changing @5k mile intervals. I was more concerned about having the truck lubed to comply with my warranty. Maybe providing the Mobil 1 to my dealer might be an option. I'll have to check that out.

armtdm · February 2003

Didn't know any cars still had grease fittings on them, maybe SUVs but not even sure those have fittings. Lube jobs are almost a thing of the past.

mralan · February 2003

Don't most cars have grease fitting at the CV joints?

Synthetic motor oil

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