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Synthetic motor oil

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Comments

  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    I wasn't trying to make it sound like the choice is irrelevant or unimportant (i.e. 6 in one, half-dozen in the other).

    Nor was I trying to imply that the market is 50% dino, 50% synthetic.

    Was simply trying to say that it's not a real easy choice for the relatively few consumers who actually take the time to think about it. I put both of us in that group, as well as most of the people who read these types of forums. Most people just go down to Jiffy Lube and have it changed. They may not even know such a thing as 'synthetic motor oil' exists. That's too bad, because they might prefer synthetic, for various reasons (environmental, spend less time due to fewer changes, better performance of synthetic, etc.) if they researched it. I've researched it, and continue to do so. I've made my choices, and switched back and forth, even stopping in the middle (synthetic blends) along the journey.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    #4909

    I would agree with this above post. Since Mobil One lost the "hydro cracked case", there is at once: more choices and less choice.

    If I was searching for a "synthetic" today, three come to mind: Redline, Amsoil, Mobil One.

    Most of the other brands dance too much around legalism's about the fact they are using inferior base stocks than the above three and in fact don't want to come out and say they are using hydro cracked formulations. So in fact, after the legal decision, the door is wide open for much lower standards for "synthetic". And if that is not bad enough, you will find out how they perform WAY too late!

    While I have read the technical definition (wonderful reading during root canal surgery), I am by NO means an oil expert.

    I just try to get enough knowledge to be an informed synthetic oil consumer.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Glad we agree, at least once in a while ;)

    It seems several of the on-the-shelf PAO synthetics (Valvoline and Quaker State come to mind) have gone the way of Castrol Syntec and are not true synthetics any more. Besides Mobil 1, I don't know of any other oil available off-the-shelf at auto parts or discount stores that still claims to be a fuly PAO- or ester-based oil. Perhaps Chevron Supreme?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    #4911

    I read this in passing and dont have the source but it said that the production costs are fairly similar for synthetic and conventional. However, the new SL standard put in a higher cost rate than the old SJ. So with the new lower standard, the cost structure can be dropped for the hydrocracked synthetic. This to my way of thinking makes me glad I am using Mobil One that in fact does use the higher group rated base stocks etc.

    If you read the Chevron website they will say 100% synthetic (no footnote as to whether this is the pre or post hydrocracked Mobil One case definition) but the code word to look for is group three!!? (it is not there, or hidden away so well that I glossed over it) Not to mention that Chevron is the premier hydrocracked producer. (Sort of like going to hell and asking for the "heaven" section)
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    As you know the XL series is no longer synthetic as well. Kind of irritating that the company that claims to be the first in synthetics changed the process on some of their formulas and continue to state on the bottle that it is a full synthetic.

    Ah, the pursuit of profit at all costs!
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    Chevron Supreme and PAO even be mentioned in the same discussion? Chevron Supreme is certainly not PAO. It might be a hydrocracked dino and may perform very well but I have not seen any evidence yet that it will play in the same ballpark as the PAO's. Mix a little dino into the PAO and you ruin the whole thing so blends don't play in that ballpark either.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    #4914

    Perhaps I mis spoke.

    Chevron does offer a "Chevron Supreme 100% synthetic oil" That is documented on their web site. I don't have the web site on this computer file, at the moment, so will post it from another if folks are interested.

    Thanks for the heads up on Amsoil XL. On researching their web site, it didnt seem like the A ticket product as others. Now we have more information!
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    It still seems to be up in the air whether Chevron's full synthetic is PAO based or simply a group 3 hydrocracked concoction. I seem to recall somebody posting recently the email response they received from somebody at Chevron. I don't recall the details, but the person wanted to know if Chevron Synthetic was indeed PAO or whether it was similar to, or same as, their IsoSyn Chevron Supreme $1-a-quart oil. The Chevron person's response was something along the lines of 'yes, the synthetic IS different. It's 100% synthetic.' But I don't think it was clearly stated if the product was PAO-based or not.

    With Chevron being a leader in the hydrocracking field, it would seem likely that their 'synthetic,' like that of many other major brands on the shelf, is NOT a PAO- or ester-based product. But I haven't seen anything conclusive, one way or the other.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    "Chevron Supreme 100% Synthetic Motor Oils are formulated using 100% synthetic base stocks for the best performance."

    Would Chevron say "100% synthetic base stocks" to describe hydrocracked base stocks? The verbiage in the quote suggests it IS a PAO- or ester-based oil. I'm not saying I think it is, but that's how it sounds.

    That page must be pretty outdated - it mentioned SJ and ILSAC GF-2 but made no mention of the current SL and ILSAC GF-3. Perhaps Chevron's Synthetic previously was a true synthetic, but they have since changed to a group III 'synthetic' like many other competitors?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    #4918

    That was my take also. I also found a reference to the GM 4178M specification (suitable for use in Corvettes)
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    Wouldn't they say that it was if it was? Why do you think they wouldn't call a hydrocracked a full synthetic? What is the price of this "full synthetic"? I thought Chevron Supreme was about $1/qt. My assumption is that if it doesn't say that it is PAO based then it is not PAO based. I would think they would know that this market is savy enough to see through a veil like that. Synthetic oil buyers seem to recognize PAO as the best base and would think Chevron would know that. Therefore, why not tout it for being PAO based if it is? Would they be ashamed of that? Would it benefit them to keep that a secret? I can see how it would benefit them to keep the fact that it is not PAO based a secret.
  • ryokenryoken Member Posts: 291
    I've noticed 3 products from Amsoil.. an un-branded, XL-7500, and Series 2000. I see from a few posts back that XL is one to avoid. What's the difference in the others? Which is the good one? Their website, from what I can tell, doesn't seem to rank their products.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    I didn't say I thought it was a PAO base, I said that's what the Chevron page referenced by ruking made it sound like that. My guess is it probably isn't PAO, since most of the 'full synthetics' on the shelf are not PAO any more. But it would be nice to know for sure.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    The Amsoil XL stuff isn't necessarily to be avoided, but it is not a true synthetic any more and therefore it seems expensive for what you get (a group III oil).
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    what was it that made it "sound" like it was PAO based. I didn't see ANYTHING that made me think it might be PAO based. How much does it cost?
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    The "100% synthetic base stocks" part made me think it might not be just a group III oil. Or maybe all the group III oils say such things? I don't know. Also, the response I recall someone receiving from Chevron made it sound as if there was something truly different about the synthetic vs. Chevron's other oils. Since Chevron's so big on hydrocracking, I was thinking this might mean the difference is that the synthetic is a PAO, not just a hydrocracked group III or whatever.

    I think the stuff sells in the typical off-the-shelf 'full synthetic' ballpark - $4 or so a quart. Not sure though.
  • ryokenryoken Member Posts: 291
    Okay. So, ignoring the XL stuff for the moment, what's the difference between "Series 2000 SAE 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil" and "SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil" (aside from the obvious 0W and 5W.. I'm more interesting in "Series 2000" vs. "plain").

    Now, what's the advantage? I can't go 25k miles, as it says "25k miles or 1 year", and 1 year is about 12-14k miles. So, we're looking at about 4 regular oil changes (at 3k each), or 1 synthetic oil change at about 6 times the cost. I'm figuring 1.30/qt (Castrol @ WalMart) vs. 8.35/qt (Series 2000 from amsoil.com store). Am i missing something?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    #4926

    I think you hit the cost comparisons on the head! If you only go between 12-14k per year, which is app what I do per year, in effect you are changing out your oil while it has app 12k more useful miles or useful life left.

    Very instructive, but beyond the scope of this topic, is the double filtering and preoiler systems for "extreme" mile oil changes. (Amsoil vendors do sell these systems) Again if most or 60% of an engine's wear is at start up and 25k or more miles per year is the scenario, this is certainly a very good option.

    Again if one goes 25k per year or more, this is probably of benefit VS a 3k oil change cycle is 8-9 oil changes in a year. If not, then the real killer is the caveat that ALL the premier synthetic oil OEM recommend and that is once a year oil changes!
  • mazdanymazdany Member Posts: 28
    How does one know when a company is trying to pass a hydrocracked as a synthetic oil. I understand that Castrol is a hydrocracked synthetic and to my knowledge was the only one. But one of the previous posts mentions that another of the poseur synthtic oils was Valvoline SynPower. I checked thw website FAQ and this is what it states:

    "Is SynPower a full synthetic? Is SynPower motor oil PAO or ester based? Does it require a special filter?
    Yes, SynPower is 100% synthetic. Synpower uses a proprietary combination of various types of synthetic base oils to obtain optimum performance.

    No, a special oil filter is not required with Synpower."

    Please provide info to conclusively dispute this.
  • pjksrpjksr Member Posts: 111
    Hey guys. Remember to check the MSDS of products; the Chevron Synthetic MSDS indicates it is PAO "or" Isosyn... So who knows? At least they don't call their $1.08 dino "synthetic" like Castrol.

    BTW, Citgo Supergard Synthetic Blend also contains PAO at about 20%...if you can find it.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    The 0W is gasoline engines only and has a heavier additive package thent he regular 25,000 5 W and 10 W oils. The wear numbers will be teh same but the 0W will go longer and hold up better. If you change in less then 10,000 miles don't spend the extra $2/quart for the 0W series 2000. The 5W series 3000 is for gasoline and diesel and has an even better additive package then the 0W. Highly recommended if severe driving conditions.

    I use the )w in one car and the 10W in 4 others. If you live in a very cold winter climate teh 0W will be the choice. I leave it in year round with no problems
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    I want to thank all of you who have given me advice on this forum about synthetics. The engine runs much quieter, start-ups are great, and when I rev the engine under hard acceleration the engine sounds and feels very smooth. I think I made the right decision. I will still change at 3-4k miles, but I wanted to know I was using a very good oil. I am going to use the Motorcraft filters supplied by the Ford dealer and have them do the changes. Thanks again!

    I also decided to run 5W-30 instead of the 5W-20 that was called for, but that is a different thread!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    #4931

    Good for you! The engine runs slightly better and is just at the SOTP perception zone.

    I just recently did a 15k oil and filter change interval on my Toyota Landcruiser (@14k miles, why? used oil pick up is this tues :) ). (Mobil One 5W-30 and OEM Toyota oil filter. The oil looked brown (as it should) but the weird thing was that the old oil filter looked clean.

    While it certainly will not hurt your vehicle to change at 3-4k intervals, it can certainly more than comfortably go the oil change interval that your owners or service manual recommends (usually 7.5k?)
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I may soon drain and refill the front and rear differentials, the transfer case, and the manual transmission on my 1998 Pathfinder XE, which has a limited slip rear differential. I am interested in recommendations for brands and formulations of synthetic lubricants to use for this project. I have several thousand miles to go, to reach the 60K service, so I've got shopping time. (:o]
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    Why would you change your Mobil1 every 3-4k miles. Do you like spending your time and money at that dealership? I am just trying to understand that as I attempt to settle in on my final drain interval. I am looking at at least 7.5-8k.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    change at 3-4k:

    1) I seem to be exhibiting obsessive-compulsive behavior toward my new car,

    2) I have 5k miles on my car, when I changed the oil most recently (4th change so far) the oil was so clear we could hardly see it on the dipstick, it was great!

    3) An old auto buff whom I respect told me to change every 3k, even using synthetic. He said it is not that expensive to make the extra oil changes so better to err on the side of safety,

    4) I am not a big believer in the efficacy of oil filters, I believe the best oil filter is an oil change. I think there are acids and byproducts that can build up in the oil under high stress conditions (short commutes) that the filter cannot remove.

    5) Lack of experience with synthetics, I have that 3k mindset I guess.

    I hate to mention this but to show I am open-minded, I am reminded of an old Red Fox joke when I think about going overboard on preventive maintenance: "I know a guy who quit smoking. He got runover by a tobacco truck".

    Maybe that joke is not that funny after all; it actually makes me a little nervous! Better do another oil change after I get done washing my hands for the fifth time in the last half hour, maybe it will help with my anxiety! LOL
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    You go guy! Hopefully one day you will become less obsessive. That's one of the problems with new vehicle ownership. Best of luck with it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    #4933

    If you plan to do synthetics, I would do one of three: Redline, Amsoil, Mobil One. This is in order of price. Some would also argue this would also be in order of quality.

    I chose Mobil One synthetics, for the price/ performance. I like the fact that with synthetics you can go much longer between changes. On mine the fluid changes are scheduled at 30k intervals. With the synthetics, I would not hesitate to go to 60k intervals.

    While I would certainly read the owners and service manuals for the precise products your vehicle may need. Mobil One synthetic gear oil 75w-90 and or 80w, ATF come to mind.

    I like also the fact that the drive train tends to sound and feel smoother in operation and the combination on my vehicles anyway seems to gain app 1-2 mpg., which on a TLC any little bit helps! :)
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Having used both the Amsoil and RedLine I have to vote for the Redline. First, they perform better in my application especially when cold. RedLine has a wider range of weights then Amsoil and wider range of GL-4 classification weights as well.

    I use the Amsoil ATF and oil but for gear oil, strictly RedLine
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Redline certainly makes a good product line! They are a Northern Ca company based in Benicia, CA. For me they are up the road a piece HW 680 N.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    I replaced the OEM differential and transfer case fluids on our 98 Isuzu Trooper with Mobil 1 synthetic gear lube at appx 50k miles. I won't worry about changing these fluids again until at least 100k miles. My thought is similar to ruking's - synthetic fluids in these places will probably last much longer than conventional fluids.

    At $5/qt, the cost was bearable since I wasn't using tons of fluid.

    One potential drawback is the Mobil 1 gear lube isn't available in very many weights, IIRC. I used their 75W90 even though Isuzu called for 80W90 - my thought is that this is a pretty similar weight and the Mobil 1 in 75W90 surely can do the job of a conventional 80W90.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    4 oil changes in the first 5,000 miles?! That IS obsessive!

    I'd say changing the Mobil 1 oil every 3-4k miles, and paying the dealer to do it, actually IS much more expensive than other alternatives. This is obviously 4x or more more costly than changing the oil yourself and using conventional oil. Or comparing synthetic at 3-4k with a 6-8k interval, that's twice as expensive.

    If you are going to be spending that much, maybe you should start doing oil analysis. An oil analysis that shows the oil is still holding up well at 4k miles might give you the comfort to go further.

    Have you considered changing the filter, possibly at home, around 3-4k miles, and allowing the oil to stay in until 6-8k?

    3-4k Mobil 1 change intervals is surely good care for your care, but quite expensive. What's the crankcase capacity for your vehicle?
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Any SL dino will easily go 4K on almost any engine. Anything under 7.5 with Mobil 1 is total waste. Although I'm not a huge believer in oil analysis, this should at least make you less compulsive about this wasteful practice.

    Cars are complicated devices with hundreds of different systems that can crap out. Having an engine that goes a half million miles when the rest of those systems bite the big one at 250 can only cost you money.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    I will try to rethink this. With regards to price though, is it really that expensive to change at say 4K intervals? I drive a V-8 and compared to the way I go through gas, the cost of an oil change just doesn't seem like a big deal. Let's see, $30 for 6 quarts of Mobil 1, and another $20 to the dealership to do the change. That is about $25 extra per oil change over dino, times 3 changes a year is an extra $75 a year, doesn't seem like a lot to really take care of a 25k car...
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    for a $36K car. Its just a waste of money but hey, it's your money. I will tell you though that I have had a oil pan drain pan on my mustang replaced because the plug got so stripped out from the mechanic tightening the plug that he couldn't tap it out any more. I was changing every 3-4 K with a dino. The filter threads might also get stripped out. I don't know how you fix that but I hope I don't have to find out. The more you work on the parts though, the more chance there is for something to go wrong.
  • according2meaccording2me Member Posts: 236
    to use M1, checkout Walmarts 5qt jug for $17.88.
    They don't have it all the time, but every month or so they set up a display of these with 5&10w30. Stock up the garage with 1 or 2 when their available.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    bigorange, that is an interesting point about the parts wearing out... oh no, something else to worry about! Well, okay, we just went to 4500 intervals! (That's progress, this morning I was at 3k intervals.)
  • bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    With a little care you should not have a problem stripping threads. Got to be vigilant with aluminum pans and such but that's all. Find the torque spec for the oil drain plug and don't overtighten. I use a copper washer on the plug to prevent oil from dripping out and I torque mine to 21 ft/lbs. Tightening filters is even easier as its mostly just hand-tight with an extra 1/8 turn from a filter wrench.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    I will never go back. I think everyone would go the synthetic route if they understood the benefits and cost effectiveness of it.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    purchase, it looks interesting. I was just wondering if it is the Amsoil line basically? Is it worth buying?
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    I had already made my decision before I saw this. The Mobil1 gaurantee convinced me along with many many comments I have seen here and from friends. I didn't buy the book but learned some things just from the ad. I thought you might be able to get something from the ad since you were still not sure about taking the oil past 7000 miles.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    is very important. Is Motorcraft okay or should I go to Mobil 1? Is a K&N air filter okay, he also mentions air filters as being important?
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    and a K&N air filter. I would recommend the Mobil1 oil filter as it is synthetic and lasts longer. I have not found the K&N to give me anything except not ever having to buy another filter. The gas mileage did not improve. I am concerned that it is letting too much dirt through and will be looking at that in some oil analysis. I may go back to a standard cellulosic air filter once I see some oil analysis on the fully broken in engine.
  • brads03expybrads03expy Member Posts: 12
    Hello all! I have an '03 Ford Expedition 5.4L V-8 with 2,500 miles on it. I have changed the oil (Motorcraft 5W-20 at 500 and 2400 miles) Should I use Mobil 1 5W-30 at the 5,000 mile mark, or is it too early? Also, I use a Purolater Pure One filter with Mobil 1 oil, and love this combo.

     My 2nd question is how long of a oil change interval could I go to? I use a 5,000 mile interval on my F-150 with the same engine. The driving I do is 25 miles to work, a few miles of stop and go during the day, and then 25 miles back home again. Should I stick with 5,000 or could I stretch this? I like to be conservative, and don't want to pay $20 for an oil analysis.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    I don't do oil analysis either, but I'm starting to warm up to the idea. That said, 5000 miles on Mobil 1 is a pretty conservative interval and you should be fine unless your truck sees some very difficult conditions (lots of short trips, lots of towing, etc.). If you did pay for an analysis, and you'd probably want to wait a while for the motor to really break in so the data would be more meaningful, you might be able to double or even triple the interval with Mobil 1. This could end up saving you money even after factoring in the cost of analysis.

    Some Mobil 1 users would say you could go much further than 5,000 miles without analysis. Personally, my comfort zone is 5-6k miles and anything beyond that seems like too far. Since I haven't done oil analysis before, 6k miles is the longest interval I've ever used.

    Is your 25-mile trip to work a highway trip, city trip, combo, etc.?
  • bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    I too use the Mobil One/Pure One combo and I have never gone beyond 6,000 miles between changes. I usually stick to the 5,000 mile concept and am confident I am getting the best protection for my engine without risking oil degradation.

    I also do not use analysis due to the above change intervals. The expense of frequent analysis is directly offset by the cost of an oil change. So other than the somewhat trivial info an analysis would provide me I see no tangible benefit to conduct them. I know others disagree and that's fine; different strokes and all that.

    It sounds like a change plan at every 5K interval is a wise one.
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    If you read many of the messages on this board, you will see that Mobil1 users have no difficulty in going 7500 miles between changes. In fact, Mobil1 actually gaurantees it for that interval (actually whatever your manual says for normal driving even if you are in severe conditions but most manuals are at about 7500). Some on here even go 12-15K. I would suggest using a 7500 without analysis. If you want to go more than 7500, it is well documented to be OK but I would do analysis since all engines are different.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Without doing analysis, it all depends on what your comfort zone is. Sure, the chance that brad's engine will have problems if he leaves Mobil 1 in there for 7500 miles instead of 5000 is extremely small. The real question seems to be, how much does risk increase as change interval increases? This is very hard to answer.
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