Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Comments
Yes, I do it to establish a baseline past initial break in. I do it in a spot check type of situation. It basically confirms the 13.5-15k intervals.
It is funny that while conventional oil users think it is sound management to check synthetic oils with oil analysis, for some reason they dont want to do it with 1.5k,3k 5k 7.5k conventional oils!!! As I have said: which most folks ignore, if the conventional oil does not have as good a durability as synthetic oil, conventional oil users should do the oil analysis!!! As one so aptly put it:
"...I've been corrupted by the 3000 mile Jiffy Lube change intervals..."
On the other side the other truth is that you can change your oil almost after every time that you drive it and it will not hurt your machine.
In fact the acid test is really all of you have probably driven a lot of miles with 3k intervals and have yet to have engine failure due to oil!!!! The only difference is that I have driven a lot of miles on the both conventional at 3k intervals and synthetic @ 15k intervals and have not experienced any engine failure due to oil. The synthetic oil seems to leave my engine parts cleaner and with less wear, but ultimately does it really matter much if you only go 150k miles? Or less? I like the extra protection and lubrication and the slightly better gas mileage and lower cost per mile lubricated but other folks may not even care.
Just to show you the power of "habit," I subscribe to a number of Corvette forums. While Corvette OEM recommends up to a 15k interval there are many on the forum that indeed change oil every 2000-3000 miles !This is with synthetic oil ! The funny part is that if you follow the threads for a while. A lot of them will trade in or sell cars with less than 5000 miles for one reason or another. So what sense this makes, I really don't know. But if you are the market for a cream puff these are the people to buy your used Corvettes from that is for sure!
I had a 70 VW that needed oil changed every 3k and 1.5k in winter time. Several times I had to use engine flush to work out the sludge build up. However it went app 235 k miles with just a clutch job at 145k. at which time I sold it. If I remember correctly Mobil One was something like 5 dollars a quart when conventional oil was like .25-.35 cents? From a cost point of view that was a real no brainer. Not to mention that oil analysis was not commonly commercially available at the time.When compared to todays oil (SL), the oil at the time was pure crap!
"As I have said: which most folks ignore, if the conventional oil does not have as good a durability as synthetic oil, conventional oil users should do the oil analysis!!! As one so aptly put it:
'...I've been corrupted by the 3000 mile Jiffy Lube change intervals...'
On the other side the other truth is that you can change your oil almost after every time that you drive it and it will not hurt your machine."
Your comment about changing the oil after every single vehicle trip grows more and more tiresome each time you trot it out. I find it extremely annoying and totally worthless to the discussion when you tie it and the 3,000 mile change interval together, claiming it proves the stupidity of changing one's oil every 3,000 miles.
No doubt you will come back with something about how if I want to change my oil 5 times more often than you, that it's my time. And I'm filling your pockets because you own ChevronTexaco stock. And I'm polluting the planet because I'm using so much oil. Etc etc etc. Perhaps by anticipating your responses I have saved you some typing time!
I can't believe you continue to have this same discussion with me and others repeatedly on this forum. I am glad that we've exchanged posts because I've learned a couple more things about your views and practices and I have clarified a couple of my views. I just wish we could avoid the other repetitive stuff.
"...I've been corrupted by the 3000 mile Jiffy Lube change intervals..."
What is instructive is: it is not only you that is "bound" by repetitive stuff.
I am describing what I myself have done. Why you take my personal experience as a personal affront to you, I don't know.
What I am advocating is to do the same for conventional as well as synthetic, then make your choice. If you use conventional oil changes and don't do oil analysis, welcome to the club. 99.9999% of those users do NOT do oil analysis!
I am ok with you viewing 7.5 k on conventional as risky but what is it based on?? Are you are saying is it is not based on oil analysis!!?? Or even personal experience!??
On the flip side, I ask you what is risky about 15k intervals on synthetic with over 600k miles? Mine is based on personal experience and oil analysis.
I have further told you I have had NO oil cause breakdowns and or repairs or engine sludging. In fact, it is the dealer's I take my cars to that are measuring those results, not me. Keep in mind that they would dearly love to do extra repairs and maintenance due to my "risky" behavior. (The motivations should be obvious.)
If your opinions are based on other's opinions, again I have no problem with that.
If synthetic did not offer the advantages discribed, trust me, I would not use it! But I think as you can see that over say a round number of 600,000 miles the choice is really yours, do you want do do 3k or 15k intervals (or whatever), 200 or 40 changes respectively. Actually for me, I wish I had started using synthetic that much more sooner! I would have done 164 or so changes less! Given 1 M miles already under the bridge, the differences are indeed HUGE (334 vs 66 changes, use 7 qts=2338 qts vs 462 qts.) It is equally as obvious that for one person that is a drop in the buck. But if you multiply that by a sizable population...
I resent you saying that I said it is: "claiming it proves the stupidity of changing one's oil every 3,000 miles." FOR I DID NOT SAY THAT!
What is tiresome is your lack of acknowledgement.
What you do is as I have said, as well as you have said, it is your time and it is your nickel. All I am saying is that you are not alone in your view, so... I may as well get a piece of that action...
So have you tried Chevron Supreme yet!?
I think one of the traps that can be easily fallen into with oil analysis is the intellectual quest for oil purity for oil purity's sake.
I used to have a NDI Shop (or none destruct inspection shop) report to me when I had the responsibility of 100 fighters and or over 200 jet engines. So to say I used oil analysis in my daily work would be a severe understatement.
Actually the use of NDI was pivotal in planning future repairs and maintenance and their real time, real world scheduling, flying procedures, ad infinitum. It was also used for confirming feelings and inspections, post repair or maintenance. While cost was certainly an issue, maintaining CAPABILITY was certainly high on the list of why NDI or specific to this thread, oil analysis was part of the program.
I used to keep trucks (looks like the fed ex and ups delivery trucks) on the flight line anywhere from 18-24 hrs with the engine idling and stop and go operation being the norm! The surprising thing is that even though the motor pool used engine oil just a shade better than "bacon" grease, there were really no engine problems. Of course the life cycle was set at 50k for a full tear down and rehab, but being poh under equipt and undermanned we prided ourselves in beating the odds!!
So just for oil, if you base the $1.50 on 7 qts of conventional say at $1. and 3.67 for synthetic that is a surcharge of 21% and 5.8% for disposal fees. So as one can see if you are doing 3k intervals as opposed to 15k intervals...
ATF cost me 6.75 retail and with a disposal fee od 1.13 that = 17%
I don't know how each location where everyone is, handles it, but the ability to dispose of oil is already factored into my garbage price. So if most folks do not dispose of oil the garbage company still keeps the amortized fees,(while rendering no immediate service) and if they dispose of the oil it ends up profiting the garbage company a second time in that the used oil market probably pays a hefty fee to suck it from the garbage companies not to mention the hefty tax credits on both sides for doing so.
Please tell me what I have not acknowledged, and I will be happy to do so.
Yes, I've tried Chevron Supreme. No oil analysis, so it's hard to say if it did any better or worse than the other oils I've used.
I have 11.6k on an oil interval with PF44 oil filter, which according to the on board computer indicates 16% useful life left(or 84% used) on the oil. This translates to 100% at 13,809.523 miles
(yeah, I know, I am disappoint too, in that I did about a week's worth of stop and go driving in Los Angeles, so it is not at its usual 14,800 figure).
Send me a prepaid oil analysis kit(on your nickel), I will draw the oil IAW the instructions, send it to the specified place and when you receive the results from the vendor of your choice, you can post the results! If you wish to watch it being done, or draw the sample yourself, I can arrange to meet you at a place close to my business.
Again, Mobil One Super Synthetic 5w-30, 7 qts, AC Delco PF-44 oil filter.
And that isn't even the bad news!!
Over 600k in miles with no engine problems or concerns is an ill-advised gambler? Perhaps you will remain unconvinced, so I won't bother you with facts anymore! Perhaps a marketing brainwash of "don't go a mile over 3k" will comfort you?
Live a tad, you don't need a belt and suspenders!
My enthusiasm is peaking because I changed the oil and filter on my 1998 Pathfinder just last night. The Valvoline 5W-30 and the Penske filter combined to make it one great concrete rolling experience. And I was yet a little short of the 3K marker, but I indulged myself none the less. (:o]
Happy New Years to all.
mike1qaz
I just returned from a trip to Disneyland by way of looking at three/four universities in the SO CA area. The trip down and back was rainy and wet about 50% of the way there and back, yet is was marvelous, although a bit chilly at Disneyland. (55 degrees at night.)
Even did outdoor swimming and Jacuzzi at night at the hotel facilities!
Did a steady 85 mph down and 85 mph back. The Landcruiser ran like a clock! All the Highway Cops were blaze about the whole thing. I was almost being passed by half the folks going my way!
I sure don't want to be out tonight (New Year's EVE)
Again, Happy New Year to all!
What's the deal with Amsoil? Which is better, Pennsoil or Amsoil? What are the differences?
Redline and M1 make excellent products with M1 having the best distribution. Also I'd place Schaeffer's near the top due to their excellent additive package. Most of Schaeffer's stuff is a synth blend so their prices are more palatable.
Amsoil is app 43% more than Mobil One. Redline is app 116% more than Mobil One. There is no doubt that Redline and Amsoil are "better" than Mobil One. I use Mobil One because the ultimate kicker is all three of them recommend changing oil a minimum of ONCE a year. I also like the fact that Mobil One is a fine product that is commonly available.
For me once a year means between 13-15k miles so even if I were convinced that the Amsoil 25,000 mile oil change is do able, I would have to increase my milege by app 10,000 per year, or 67%.
What surprises me about your post is your acknowledgement that Mobil 1 is a compromise - excellent oil, but not the best, and its low cost relative to other synthetics and wide availability make it a great choice for synthetic users. I agree with all that.
Previously, I got the impression you thought Mobil 1 was 'the best.'
I am glad that more information came out in the course of the synthetic discussion. The thing most challenging is how a particular product does or does not fit someone's particular application. I am glad we have a wide range of choice in the marketplace.
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/nafl/auto/content/motoroils.shtm
I am not so sure it is ironic either intended or unintended, unless Chevron itself manufacturers synthetic oil with no inherent belief in it being better or to take advantage of the marketing hype. See the above link for Chevron synthetic. Perhaps from yours or a consumers point of view you can put it in perspective. Again, what does Chevron really mean when it advertises 100% synthetic? I don't do this to single out Chevron Texaco, but as you know ChevronTexaco is one of the premier hydro crack producers
From the link FAQ:
"...Is there a benefit in using a synthetic motor oil over a conventional petroleum motor oil?
For extreme operating conditions, either temperature or load, yes there is a benefit. The improved volatility and stability of synthetic base stocks give reduced oil consumption, faster engine starting (especially in cold weather), and extremely fast lubrication of all moving parts compared to conventional mineral oils. In addition, a special blend of additives protects the engine against harmful deposits and wear. Chevron Supreme 100% Synthetic Motor Oils are formulated using 100% synthetic base stocks for the best performance. Chevron Supreme 100% Synthetic Motor Oils provide excellent performance in both extreme cold and hot conditions. In cold temperatures, Chevron Supreme 100% Synthetic Motor Oils flow easily, allowing for faster starts and quicker lubrication. In today's hotter running engines, Chevron Supreme 100% Synthetic Motor Oils maintain their viscosity and resist oxidation better than conventional mineral oils...."
So that I am not perceived as being ambiguous, I would not substitute the perfectly fine Chevron Supreme convention oil product 5W-30 for the Mobil One synthetic oil product 5w-30 in the Chevrolet Z06.
Mobil One as you know meets a GM spec that a few synthetic oil meet. Chevron Supreme not only does not meet the spec GM 4158 spec, but it would disqualify warranty work for in the event engine repair was needed. It also would not meet the requirements for 1 year or up to 15k mile oil change intervals as per OEM.
Trust me it I would be the first one to switch to Chevron Supreme if it were indeed just as good or better than Mobil One. Especially at less than a $1.00 per qt AND being able to go up to 15k oil change intervals. This would be way cool but I repeat: this is a fantasy, right now! And I flat out would not do it, nor would the OEM warranty the damage that might be caused due to using this "equal" oil.
The first thing is that most of the non synthetic folks DO NOT believe you can run a 7.5k interval, let alone a 15k interval. (like I do.)
The reason I say "application" because in an example that became clearer, when bluedevils said he used 10 qts of oil in 20k miles. Whether synthetic oil is better than conventional oil in this scenario is moot especially when oil is consumed like this.
To cut to the chase he uses (in 20k) 7 filters and 59 qts of oil
VS
1.33/2 filters and 10 qts
So to make up the 10 qt shortfall, in his cost price analysis he is saying:
should I spend 10 x 3.67=$36.70
or
should I spend 10x .76= $7.60
The fact of the matter is that he doesnt keep oil long enough in his crankcase to experience one of the benefits of synthetic oil. And the superior protection in his mind is FAR outweighted by the increased cost!
When you factor in the fact that in 20k miles he would change the oil 7 times to my 1.33 times the cost is even higher. I would also think he changes his filter 7 times to my 1.33 times so the costs are even higher, comparitively. While I would get this fixed so the engine would not consume this much oil, he is perfectly accepting of this fact. For me also knowing this would be a cause for not selecting the vehicle or even getting a new model altogether, depending on the situation.
So if you add up the numbers over a LONGER 100,000 mile interval, the synthetic oil given the 15k interval is app 29% cheaper in parts alone. Or if you look at it the other way 3k conventional intervals cost 40% more than synthetic.How you value 34 hrs vs 7 hrs in DIY time, perhaps should be left to the ones doing the time!!
I have stated that it is not "fun for me" but am clearly open to the fact that it can be "fun for others." I guess you pay to have your fun!?
I do agree with this comment from you: "The fact of the matter is that he doesnt keep oil long enough in his crankcase to experience one of the benefits of synthetic oil. And the superior protection in his mind is FAR outweighted by the increased cost!"
One thing I'd say for me is I would not be willing to run a filter more than 5-6k miles, regardless of what oil I was running. So for my filter costs, it would be a comparison of 1 filter every 3-4k miles if running conventional oil (or further if I ever did analysis and determined the conventional would last longer in my 2 vehicles) vs. every 5-6k miles if running a quality synthetic such as Mobil 1. This would minimize the savings associated with running the synthetic oil vs. your scenario (1 filter every 3k miles w/dino vs. 1 filter/15k miles w/synthetic).
Given the fact I'd be unwilling to run a quality synthetic more than 5-6k miles without doing analysis, and I don't feel like doing analysis since it costs money and seems a bit dorky and my wife would think I'm nuts, synthetic would surely cost more to run in my oil-consuming Trooper than conventional, wouldn't it? Here's how I see it:
In 20k miles, I'd change dino oil 6 times (3333 miles average per interval) or Mobil 1 4 times (5000 mile interval). With dino I'd be using 40 quarts of oil (5 qt capacity x 6 changes = 30 qts, plus 10 qts consumed in 20k miles) and 6 filters. I'd use the same filters regardless of oil type - probably PureOne at $5 each. So my cost would be appx $70 -- $40 for oil (40 qts x $1/qt) and $30 for filters ($5 each x 6). With synthetic, let's say Mobil 1, I'd be looking at $3.50/qt x 30 qts = $105. Plus $20 for filters ($5 each x 4).
Now, if I were to run 15k mile intervals on both oil and filter, which I would not do, my costs would be thus: Let's figure on 60k miles then divide by 3 to make the math easier. 60k miles = 4 changes and 30 qts consumed. Total oil = 50 qts x $3.50/qt = $175. Total filters = 4 x $5 each = $20. Total cost = $195. Divide by 3 and the figure is $65. This is very close to my $70 cost of dino oil. I feel my engine is better off running the dino oil and having oil and filter changed more frequently than running a filter for 15k miles and the oil for that long too (though the oil would be rotated more often than that due to the consumption). If I changed the filter every 5k miles instead, filter cost would be $60 over 60k miles and total cost $112.
So given the above assumptions, my oil & filter costs would be $70 per 20k miles with dino oil vs. $105 per 20k miles with synthetic oil.
I'm curious to know if you have had ANY problems with your LandCruisers, because the way you talk you would simply dump a vehicle as soon as it has a single, significant mechanical problem. Don't be so sure that you will NEVER have ANY significant mechanical issues, even with a vehicle with a great reputation such as a TLC.
My 2 Troopers have been extremely reliable and had very few problems. I have enjoyed owning them more than any other vehicle I've owned. If I do end up discovering a serious engine issue with my current Trooper, it will be very disappointing. But it's not yet clear whether there is anything big wrong. It might be as simple as a bad PCV valve.
In app 250k miles, I had 2200 dollars in unscheduled repairs NONE of them engine oil related. (master slave cylinder, radiator, alternator, starter) The cost would be considerably less (950) if I had DIY.
Could I have had significant engine repairs breakdowns? Absolutely !!!! I am reporting actual vs statistical probability.
When planning for probability, the prudent thing would be to set aside the projected cost for what you fear most.
I had initially wanted to keep it past 500k, for as you know the 1987 TLC is truly built like a "light tank". What can I say, boredom set in and I had thoughts of changing the straight six to a 350 V-8 with a 5 speed manual (more power AW AW AW) But I had an offer I couldn't refuse.(sell a 16k TLC for 9k after 14 years and app 250k miles) My daughter still pings me about it. She says not only did she grow up with the truck, it is WAY retro!! (cool).
I personally would agree with you, compared with 1/4 to half a qt every 20k.
In another application I know that some high end Porsches and BMW's (911 TT and the BMW M-3 come to mind), that consume 1 qt of synthetic from 1200-2000 miles! But yeah, unless you are putting the SUV through most severe service, 1 qt each 2000 seems excessive.
The first thing is that most of the non synthetic folks DO NOT believe you can run a 7.5k interval, let alone a 15k interval. (like I do.)/
I do not disagree that syn oil won't run high miles. I do not do that as my warranty doesn't allow it. So it becomes a case of syn or dino at 3K or 4K. Maybe some day the factory will catch up with the new oils, eh? =;-)
If one has a personal issue with oil consumption rates one should buy cars with engines that do not consume oil excessively (by their own definition, of course).
When the consumption in this engine was 1qt/3k miles and even 1qt/2k miles, I was okay with that because many owners w/the same engine reported similar figures. But a qt every 1200 miles sure seems like a lot. That pushed me out of the comfort zone.
Personally, I find ruking's rather hard-line stance on this consumption thing to be strange. ruking, did your choose his vehicles because the engine designs have a track record of very low consumption, or was this a coincidence? If coincidence, would you be singing the same anti-consumption tune if your vehicles consumed significant amounts of oil? Or would you have sold these vehicles due to this 'obvious and unacceptable defect?' Lack of consumption does not indicate a 'better' motor, IMO.
The discussion was germane only as it started as a potential rational for synthetic not being cost effective. I clearly understand that ALL engines are different. If I was to do like a legal caveat and normal disclaimers, even I would go to sleep.
Normally the OEM can give you a definition of "excessive consumption." But the truth is they will probably hedge, for they really don't want to fulfill on a warranty if they do not have to. Normally, they will let the warranty expire and find some way to say it is your problem or fault, or they would be happy to fix YOUR problem for the normal fee.
The problem comes if you ask the question: where is all that oil going? If you know then fine, you may find that acceptable. If you don't and it still concerns you, I would personally find out. So defining excessive consumption is not in the scope of this thread.
I shop for cars a tad backwards. I haunt the mechanics shops and friends who have the particular model in mind and friends in the industry and technical bulletins to see what I can expect. So yes I scopes out the 1984-1986 TLC before I bought the 1987. Reliability is VERY important to me. Last thing I would like to do is be out in the stix needing two to three qts of oil and only having one!! But this also comes from having a Corvair as a teen. You measure distance in miles per qt. I never went anyway without a 12 to 24 qt pack of oil in the front trunk and an extra fan belt and tools. Excessive consumption? Nah, it just leaked like a sieve!
After cutting open multiple fitlers over the past year or so I have come to the conclusion that filters are worthless appendages, like an appendix. they filter out nothing! Even recently, using a mild engine cleaner that placed pin head sized particles into the drain pan, I cut open the filters (one a fram the other a K&N) and I found no debris in the filter media but did find it in the canister shell. Why wasn't the media loaded with debris, wish I knew. My opinion now is if you have a concern about the ability of the drain back valve to work after 6 months change the filter but from now on I am not changing filters between my drains which are from 7,500-12,000 miles depending on the car and driving using synthetic. Filters are useless and only to prevent catastophic failure due to huge particles. I have yet to cut one open that even looked full or contaminated with crud! The oil does the work and in my opnion the filters do nothing but add to cost. Granted Fram construction is crap but perhaps this is why they keep selling so many, filters in general do nothing so a Fram is as good as a Pure One or K&N or Mobil 1!
I have to agree with you. The medium can not be so fine filtering that it constricts the oil to critical parts. Just to make amply sure that this NEVER happens, (dont you think it follows that if FRAM filters or others restricted engine oil at critical times and temperatures that they could be sued for engine damage?) they have a HUGE bypass valve. Another reason why I use synthetic, it stays cleaner longer and does not deposit the same amount of internal waste that conventional oil does as a byproduct of lubrication. Does synthetic get dirty and break down? Absolutely!!! Just not at the rate that conventional oil does!! If that is of value, buy synthetic. If it is not of value buy conventional.
"Does synthetic get dirty and break down? Absolutely!!! Just not at the rate that conventional oil does!! If that is of value, buy synthetic. If it is not of value buy conventional." Ahh, if it were only that simple. Then we'd all be using synthetic. But alas, it's NOT that simple. And people make their own choices. Some determine conventional oil is right for them. Some of them are probably right, given their situation, and some of them would probably be better off using synthetic in their situation.
I truly think your perspective is incorrect, given the market share of conventional oil is upwards of 90% !!??
If it is truly as 6 of one and half doz of the other as you "appear to sound " like it is, it would be like 50/50. This again is clearly not the case!