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I do not feel that synthetic oil would increase the lifespan of the engines in our vehicles at all. I may be wrong on this, but it is extremely difficult to prove the contrary and so far I don't recall seeing anything on the Town Hall that has done so. Synthetic oil has several advantages, such as smoother running engines in temperature extremes, easier cold starting, better protection in extreme situations. I just don't think longer engine life has been shown, to me at least, it belongs in that list.
You said 'the performance of the oil should determine whether it is a good or bad one.' Valid statement. The problem is, determining 'performance' is not that easy. Sure, oil can be analyzed and that provides useful data. But what effect will that have on how well my engine runs, how long it lasts, how fuel-efficient it is, etc. To me, these are the indicators of performance, not just the oil analysis data itself. And it is those types of questions that I believe are still very difficult for people to answer about any engine oil.
Would it be cool to know that my Citgo SuperGard had a TBN of 4.5 after 5,000 miles of use in my Kia Sedona minivan's engine? Sure it would. And because there are guidelines developed by industry groups and labs that would show that is pretty good 'performance,' that in itself is not enough for me. I want to know the answers to the aforementioned questions, particularly how long the engine will last.
One thing I am curious about is what makes you think Citgo SuperGard is a decent oil - published specs, personal experience of others, mechanic recommendations, oil analyses posted on the internet, etc.
http://www.corrosionvci.com/supergua.htm
Its not as good as other SL rated dinos (like Chevron Supreme) on the market. I expect it to take you 3 K miles with traditional performance on traditional engines. I believe today's engines need better and we can strive to better than traditional performance and life from our engines. It only makes economic sense.
If Bluedevils is concerned about using an SL rate oil, but having too much SJ in stock, not to worry as he burns at the rate of 10 qts per 20k miles. Assuming he does 3k oil changes with 7 qts per change x 7 changes, He will blow off a total of 57 qts before you know it(20k miles)! This time ought to give him enough opportunity to stock up and/or search for a GOOD SL like Chevron Supreme !!!(go Chevron Supreme!!!) Maybe by then Citgo will also have an SL also.
For my TLC's, that 57 qts (if it were synthetic) would represent app 122,143 miles (@ 15k intervals x 8.1428571 changes), to give some perspective, that amount of mileage is what an average driver of 12000 miles a year, puts on his vehicle in 10 years.
However, I think you would agree with me, that while it would be of preference and sense to go the the "new" "better" SL rating, the SJ rated oil would be more than adequate for the application that he finds himself applying?
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Guidechart2002.pdf
Again, I have to say, you get what you pay for.
http://www.synthetics-unlimited.com/apitesting.htm
I personally am excited about the new Mobil One Super Synthetic 0-5w-30. I see that buried in the technical justification for the new SL rating that Mobil One SS has more moly !!! Not to mention better high temp deposit control and better protection curve (again this is really lost on folks that do 3k oil changes, i.e. a waste) and lower oil consumption. Although in the case of consuming 10qts per 20k, it will probably not help in the least.
Consumer Reports, many years ago hinted that they wanted to do more comprehensive oil test. They indicated at the time that in the CONVENTIONAL oil product line that there were THEN many instances of "OFF SPEC". So much so that the data indicated that it was in fact a real trend.
While they abandoned the project as too "expense" intense. I for one wanted them to do the test.
ruking, your TLC must be 20 times better than my Trooper since my Trooper burns 20 times more oil.
As someone who would not be willing to leave any oil in an engine more than 7500 miles max, I do not feel that SL-rated conventional oil at approx. $1/qt. is a 'poor buy' or a 'poor value' in comparison to synthetics at $3.50-$6/qt.
"ruking, your TLC must be 20 times better than my Trooper since my Trooper burns 20 times more oil. "
No, according to your information that you burn 10 qts and I burn 1/4-1/2 qts in 20k mile. You burn 9.5 qts MORE. WHICH is far less than mine..., OR your "...Trooper burns 20x more oil", which you have noted.
Would I like to match your "burn rate?" Absolutely NOT!
Would I want you to decrease your "burn rate?" Since you indicate comfort in it and have not been stopped for excessive burning of oil on the highway, I am comfortable, if you are comfortable.
It is very interesting you say this and yet you are using a 73 cent/quart dino oil. I do agree that this is a very blanket statement. Every rule has its exceptions as I mentioned when I first said it here. There are even exceptions in the field of oil. I agree that a SL dino like Chevron Supreme, Penzoil or Quaker State may be a good value compared to a SJ dino but I do not agree that any SL dino is as good as a synthetic. I also agree that there are some oils pretending to be synthetic that are raping the guys that buy them. Based on my post earlier, how do you know that just because the bottle says SL that it really meets those standards? Why does the Cigo website call it a SJ rated oil?
I am just having some difficulties with the statement of "...someone who would not be willing to leave any oil in an engine more than 7500 miles max...". That is just strange. When you were using synthetic, how often did you change it?
Coincidently if you look at the SL specification for performance longevity 4k is about what the new SL standard is also!
Let me, if I may, show you that the 3k has been and will be technically incorrect. The specification for SJ (on back) has really been at 1000 miles. So if you were used to doing 3k oil changes you are really -2000 !! Now the new SL specification is a min of 4k.By any measure a significant improvement? So again, if you change at 3k you are (+1000) in effect not taking full advantage of the 4-7.5k of "still left" oil use ability, ie the extra protection would be a waste. So conventional SL rated oil if you are at all fastidious about it, is good from 4-7,500 miles. The reason why many folks DO NOT do oil analysis and THIS is really the main issue, whether folks acknowledge it or not, is COST !! Or higher cost "PERCEPTION" Why would you spend 20-30 bucks for oil analysis when you can change oil and filter for that price and less?
I have shown repeatedly that using synthetics in specific parameters is cheaper per mile lubricated than conventional oil. YET at one end folks look at you thinking BS and the other end being a polite hum let us see if the real world bears this BS out!!! Well as you all know synthetic oil was invented during WW2, i.e., been in the real world for at least 61 years!! As a matter of fact, it was conceived and executed to lessen the need for dependance on FOREIGN OIL !!!!???? DAH !!!!!
#4724
This is an interesting dilemma. The goals of 5w-20 are two fold 1. to meet or milk EVERY last MPH as they can to pass EPA mileage tests. EVERYONE understands that individual drivers drive differently with the corresponding consequences. The engine's as you probably know are guaranteed to app 3 yr/36,000 miles, please for accuracy correct me if I am wrong. 2. And the most important. THE EMISSIONS systems are guaranteed for 7 years or 70,000, again for accuracy please correct me if I am wrong.
So if you were the manufacturer, and were on the hook for 70k and off the hook for 36k where would you build the durability?
In my humble view the case for synthetic oil is even more important. I personally would not like to be faced with running 5w-20. If I were forced into it I would use synthetic. I also would have a serious discussion with with a knowledgeable factory type as to using 0-10w-30 oils, these are time "worn" and proven oils. That really concentrate on engine durability and as a by product, give good emissions systems durability. In fact, I have run a Toyota Landcruiser 15yrs and 250k and easily passed the CA smog tests which are easily the MOST strict emissions standards in the USA.
The way you have to ask is what is the statistical middle most point that your particular model car is designed to last/go etc. In the example of a 350 cu in Corvette Z06 the figure is 175,000 miles. The big BUT is that the OEM fill is synthetic Mobil One. I might add I had to REALLY dig around and deep to find that one! Using an 8 interval standard deviation (12.5 per standard deviation) you can rough the range of mileage. So each standard deviation is app 22k
Looking to the above reference I may have not presented the standard deviation clearly. With a middle most point of 175k miles the SD is more like 44k. So while variables are wildly variable, If I take good care of my car, I can reasonably expect a statistically average Chevy Z06 350 cu in engine (if the all the component parts are indeed average) to go 350,000 miles.
See #4718 for the web site reference, or if you do a search for bobistheoilguy, he has a web site and plenty of folks have posted their results. Keep in mind he is a conventional oil vendor AND he also sells oil analysis bottles. The indications are that Mobil One has improved lot from the(SJ) trisynthetic formula to the super synthetic formula. (SL)
This is correct to a point,however there is an analysis report on Bobs USED OIl ANALYSIS FORUM,
by Terry Dyson...02 Grand Am 2.2 4cyl Chevron Supreme 5/W/30.
This Chevron Supreme 5/W/30 oil was in service for 5,655 miles and had a TBN value of 10.So it appears driving style and type of engine all have a bearing how oil holds up.
Bill
Does a thinner oil offer any protection a thicker oil does not, like at startup?
I personally don't recall seeing any Mobil analysis past 10K miles. My limited experience with 3 cars(and oil analysis for them)is as follows. 01 GrandAM the oil was at about its TBN limit at less than 6K. 97 Cavalier with 75K miles will go 10K on a change. My 01 2L Sentra is possibly good for 10K. I realize Mobil has run lots of tests at 15K miles-but we are talking program driving with less than real world driving and fewer number of starts with periods of overnight sitting. Its probably OK, but just not for me.
Please don't think me rude, but I am going to consider this point-counterpoint closed.
Don't you get it?
Yes, I said that. I should have clarified that for me, I do NOT think it is worth it. I was simply acknowledging that for many people it is, and for some people I feel it is a valid move. That's in contrast to paying $4+/qt. for a pretender synthetic such as Castrol Syntec, which is a waste of money no matter who it is.
Many people are simply not comfortable running oil past 3000 miles, 5000, 7500, etc. Every person has his/her own comfort zone. We are all influenced by the world we live in, which includes numerous 'change your oil every 3k miles' quick lube TV commercials. When I was using Mobil 1 in 2 different vehicles, I changed it every 5000-6000 miles. This was the longest interval with which I was comfortable without doing oil analysis. I was not willing to do oil analysis for various reasons. I'm not sure why you think it's strange that I would not be comfortable leaving the oil in past 7500 miles. You made the same sort of statement about Mobil 1: "I am as yet not comfortable in going that high [12-15k range] but I know that some are."
Your following statement really makes me shake my head: "Based on my post earlier, how do you know that just because the bottle says SL that it really meets those standards? Why does the Cigo website call it a SJ rated oil?" Many of the oil company web sites seem to have less-than-current data. I am quite confident that if it says SL on the bottle, then it meets the SL specifications. Are you leery because of what's on the web site, or are you suspicious of the oil company and are not willing to take the product labeling at face value without conducting an independent oil analysis? To me, that is totally unnecessary. If it says SL on the label, I believe it. If that makes me gullible, which I don't think it does, so be it. I don't measure the fat content of the food I eat. I take the label at face value.
As to your other point, you said you did not feel comforatble taking Mobil1 past 5-6 K miles without analysis. I said that I feel comfortable taking mine to 7500 but not more without analysis. The difference is that I am willing to do the analysis to stretch my drain interval. People that have let themselves be brainwashed by quick lube joints to believe that 3000 miles is the absolute limit for any oil are just very naive. Don't you know that they draw a financial benefit from you changing your oil that often? Can I sell you a nice oceanfront home in Kansas. Its got a beautiful view. Just sign the contract, you don't have to go look at it. Don't believe everything you read or see on TV. If you do, you are ripe pickings for a decent scam artist.
I personally am not saying it, the SJ and the SL specifications are saying it!! READ the SPECIFICATIONS!!
If after you read the new SL specifications and it does not lead to conclude that the indications that 3k is much too frequent a change, then do me a favor and buy Chevron Supreme!
Also the manufacturer's of your cars and the ones that I particularly care about are giving their specifications! In the case of my Z06, not only does the OEM say it engine warranty is guaranteed with 15k oil change intervals. I also have a onboard computer that MEASURES it. The way I drive, the computer in effect is measuring the useful oil % left AND it happens to be between 14k-15k. I have also validated with the dealer of my other vehicles that would have done my warranty work and not only did he do most of the 15k changes, he also said that he would do any engine warranty work I would need. So yes this counterpoint is closed. I am ok with all of you changing convention oil at 3k. Just make it Chevron Supreme !!! Let me also give the boogie mans' scream so that you will change your oil at 1500 miles !!!
http://www.hondacarsofhickory.com/
There is a discussion about this though that might help. It doesn't mention if it is synthetic or what kind of oil it is.
big_dog "Early first oil change for 2003 Accord?" Dec 1, 2002 1:59pm
I have not been brainwashed into thinking that 3000 miles is the safe limit for dino oil change interval. In most cases, 3000 miles is probably overkill. Sometimes I leave the oil in for 4000 miles instead of 3000. My impression is that the better SL oils are probably good for 4000-5000 miles in most applications, maybe more. I wouldn't go more without analysis, and I'm not interested in doing analysis. So I stay a little below my perception of the safe limit and change every 3000-4000 miles. As malachy72 noted, the 3000 mile change interval is a preventive measure, just as using synthetic oil is a preventive measure. Does one need to change dino oil every 3000 miles? Probably not. Does one need to use synthetic oil? Probably not. But what's the harm in either approach - greater cost? Increased use of a natural resource (for the dino, not for the synth)? That's not something I take lightly, but used oil is recycled and that helps.
I seem to recall the same thing from the posts on the Town Hall oil forums. The consensus from people who know more about this stuff than me was that darker-colored oil is a good indicator that the oil is suspending the contaminants.
Well Mobil 1 was one of the co's that complied and since that time the Mobil 1 oils are no where near the effectiveness that they used to be.
In fact--Jack talked of a "source" that works for Quaker state and he mentioned that there were several tests done on the top motor oils and that even though the source works at Quaker state--he mentioned that Pennzoil came out on top for holding its viscosity and lubricating qualities. When I asked Jack about Mobil 1 he quickly said he would not use it in ANY application and that he personally has seen problematic issues cuased from using Mobil 1 compared to other oils.
Anyways--just thought I would share that being that the topic was going around on the board. I just thought it was pretty compelling to hear that someone who actually earns his money from Quaker state mentioned that another oil was better. Talk to ya all later. Chris
Can anyone else add to this discussion?
And by the way this is a high revving (8K RPM red-line) engine that turns any oil black within 2-3K miles. Go figure.
I started with the 10K miles interval initially, but then reduced the interval to 5K miles and switched to Mobil 1. As I said earlier, Mobil 1 increased the MPG by about 3% making Mobil 1 the cheaper oil (you buy a lot of gas in 5K miles so 3% increase in MPG is a lot!)
I think the 10K interval for dino oil is too long. And 20K for the filter definitely sounds too long.