I am aware that the Citgo SuperGuard is a decent dino oil. All I'm saying is that the performance should determine if the lubricant is a good one or a bad one. How long does the oil take to wear out? How much does it let the parts wear during the time its in the engine? How soon do parts wear out when lubricated with this oil? Those are the questions that I ask myself when choosing a lubricant for my engine. How can you know how to answer these questions for the oil you use if you haven't done analysis or measured dimensions of some of the parts? Do you just wait until something fails and then start replacing things? Do you just get rid of a car at 150,000 miles because you don't want to begin to have high repair bills? What if a lubricant delayed high repair bills to 300,000 or even 500,000 miles. I am not saying that a synthetic will do that but would it be worth it if it did? Indications are that it will make the parts last longer but just how long is still uncertain to me. I am sure it depends on the car and the driver. I willing to take what I believe is an educated risk that it will make a big difference in my engine.
bigorange30, I guess I am a bigger believer in the ability of engine oil in general to do its job. Or perhaps I am just too lazy, like the other 99.999% of the population, to do things like oil analysis and other gearhead activities. I take the time to read these types of forums, look at published specs, etc etc etc. That right there is more than almost everyone else who owns a vehicle. For me, it's enough. I am quite confident that our family's vehicles will last 200k miles or more given the maintenance habits I currently employ. I do plan on owning them at least 6-8 years each, more if the major mechanical aspects are still doing well at that age.
I do not feel that synthetic oil would increase the lifespan of the engines in our vehicles at all. I may be wrong on this, but it is extremely difficult to prove the contrary and so far I don't recall seeing anything on the Town Hall that has done so. Synthetic oil has several advantages, such as smoother running engines in temperature extremes, easier cold starting, better protection in extreme situations. I just don't think longer engine life has been shown, to me at least, it belongs in that list.
You said 'the performance of the oil should determine whether it is a good or bad one.' Valid statement. The problem is, determining 'performance' is not that easy. Sure, oil can be analyzed and that provides useful data. But what effect will that have on how well my engine runs, how long it lasts, how fuel-efficient it is, etc. To me, these are the indicators of performance, not just the oil analysis data itself. And it is those types of questions that I believe are still very difficult for people to answer about any engine oil.
Would it be cool to know that my Citgo SuperGard had a TBN of 4.5 after 5,000 miles of use in my Kia Sedona minivan's engine? Sure it would. And because there are guidelines developed by industry groups and labs that would show that is pretty good 'performance,' that in itself is not enough for me. I want to know the answers to the aforementioned questions, particularly how long the engine will last.
One thing I am curious about is what makes you think Citgo SuperGard is a decent oil - published specs, personal experience of others, mechanic recommendations, oil analyses posted on the internet, etc.
I saw on an earlier post Bretfratz said he would never use 5W-20, even if the manufacturer called for it. What do you guys think is wrong with using 5W-20 if that is what the manufacturer specifies?
I have talked to people that have used Citgo Supergaurd and have been happy with it at a 3 K change cycle. I also accept your experience with it bluedevils as evidence that it is a decent DINO. Notice I used the word decent, not excellent. It is however only an SJ rated oil as shown on the Citgo website.
Its not as good as other SL rated dinos (like Chevron Supreme) on the market. I expect it to take you 3 K miles with traditional performance on traditional engines. I believe today's engines need better and we can strive to better than traditional performance and life from our engines. It only makes economic sense.
If Bluedevils is concerned about using an SL rate oil, but having too much SJ in stock, not to worry as he burns at the rate of 10 qts per 20k miles. Assuming he does 3k oil changes with 7 qts per change x 7 changes, He will blow off a total of 57 qts before you know it(20k miles)! This time ought to give him enough opportunity to stock up and/or search for a GOOD SL like Chevron Supreme !!!(go Chevron Supreme!!!) Maybe by then Citgo will also have an SL also.
For my TLC's, that 57 qts (if it were synthetic) would represent app 122,143 miles (@ 15k intervals x 8.1428571 changes), to give some perspective, that amount of mileage is what an average driver of 12000 miles a year, puts on his vehicle in 10 years.
However, I think you would agree with me, that while it would be of preference and sense to go the the "new" "better" SL rating, the SJ rated oil would be more than adequate for the application that he finds himself applying?
It is adequate, however not optimal, for him to use this SJ grade but only if he is driving a car that it at least 2 years old. API states as you can see in this link that SL should be used on any engine on a 2002 or later model.
I personally am excited about the new Mobil One Super Synthetic 0-5w-30. I see that buried in the technical justification for the new SL rating that Mobil One SS has more moly !!! Not to mention better high temp deposit control and better protection curve (again this is really lost on folks that do 3k oil changes, i.e. a waste) and lower oil consumption. Although in the case of consuming 10qts per 20k, it will probably not help in the least.
Consumer Reports, many years ago hinted that they wanted to do more comprehensive oil test. They indicated at the time that in the CONVENTIONAL oil product line that there were THEN many instances of "OFF SPEC". So much so that the data indicated that it was in fact a real trend.
While they abandoned the project as too "expense" intense. I for one wanted them to do the test.
FYI, I've used only SL-rated Citgo SuperGard. When I started buying this oil in both 5W30 and 10W30 6 months or so ago, the bottles said 'API approved SL, SJ.' The bottles also indicate that the oil meets ILSAC GF-3.
ruking, your TLC must be 20 times better than my Trooper since my Trooper burns 20 times more oil.
I do not think this is a good general rule. On engine oil, it holds in some cases (paying more for Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, the old PAO Valvoline synthetic is worth it) but not in others (paying more for Castrol Syntec, Pennzoil synthetic, etc. is not, while oils such as Chevron Supreme are far better than their price would suggest). Most people think a statement like that on a board like this applies to most or all synthetic oils. bigorange30, I think you are saying it in a more narrow sense than that, which is fine.
As someone who would not be willing to leave any oil in an engine more than 7500 miles max, I do not feel that SL-rated conventional oil at approx. $1/qt. is a 'poor buy' or a 'poor value' in comparison to synthetics at $3.50-$6/qt.
"ruking, your TLC must be 20 times better than my Trooper since my Trooper burns 20 times more oil. "
No, according to your information that you burn 10 qts and I burn 1/4-1/2 qts in 20k mile. You burn 9.5 qts MORE. WHICH is far less than mine..., OR your "...Trooper burns 20x more oil", which you have noted.
Would I like to match your "burn rate?" Absolutely NOT!
Would I want you to decrease your "burn rate?" Since you indicate comfort in it and have not been stopped for excessive burning of oil on the highway, I am comfortable, if you are comfortable.
"paying more for Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, the old PAO Valvoline synthetic is worth it" - bluedevils
It is very interesting you say this and yet you are using a 73 cent/quart dino oil. I do agree that this is a very blanket statement. Every rule has its exceptions as I mentioned when I first said it here. There are even exceptions in the field of oil. I agree that a SL dino like Chevron Supreme, Penzoil or Quaker State may be a good value compared to a SJ dino but I do not agree that any SL dino is as good as a synthetic. I also agree that there are some oils pretending to be synthetic that are raping the guys that buy them. Based on my post earlier, how do you know that just because the bottle says SL that it really meets those standards? Why does the Cigo website call it a SJ rated oil?
I am just having some difficulties with the statement of "...someone who would not be willing to leave any oil in an engine more than 7500 miles max...". That is just strange. When you were using synthetic, how often did you change it?
There are some analyses on bobistheoilguy's site that are very interesting. Different engines do respond differently but analyses on several engines are posted there. It appears that 4000 miles is about the limit for Chevron Supreme. No one has run it past 5000 and the one that ran up to 5000 miles appears to have run it too far for my tastes with a TBN down to 2.5. It appears to be only slightly better than a standard dino as all I have seen will go 3000. How much does this oil cost again? Who sells it?
The manufacturer specifies the 5W-20 oil because he must. The oil is specified to meed CorporateAverage Fuel Econony (CAFE) standards. A 20 wt oil can not for the most part deliver the engine protection oF 30 WT. Add to this the fact that an oil can shear down to as much as one grade under hard driving in a couple of thousand miles. So you could be driving around with a 10 wt oil. The EPA origionally required Ford to prove that the engine could last a specified number of miles using this oil. Their engineers had some reservations here. That requirement was dropped. Gee I wonder why???
interesting and obviously of concern. Mobil 1 is developing a new 0W-20 synthetic, should I use this, or would you recommend going to a different grade of oil? If so what grade would you recommend? Are there any advantages to 5W-20 besides fuel efficiency? I wondered if maybe it was better at reducing cold starts because it is thinner? Thanks!
Let me, if I may, show you that the 3k has been and will be technically incorrect. The specification for SJ (on back) has really been at 1000 miles. So if you were used to doing 3k oil changes you are really -2000 !! Now the new SL specification is a min of 4k.By any measure a significant improvement? So again, if you change at 3k you are (+1000) in effect not taking full advantage of the 4-7.5k of "still left" oil use ability, ie the extra protection would be a waste. So conventional SL rated oil if you are at all fastidious about it, is good from 4-7,500 miles. The reason why many folks DO NOT do oil analysis and THIS is really the main issue, whether folks acknowledge it or not, is COST !! Or higher cost "PERCEPTION" Why would you spend 20-30 bucks for oil analysis when you can change oil and filter for that price and less?
I have shown repeatedly that using synthetics in specific parameters is cheaper per mile lubricated than conventional oil. YET at one end folks look at you thinking BS and the other end being a polite hum let us see if the real world bears this BS out!!! Well as you all know synthetic oil was invented during WW2, i.e., been in the real world for at least 61 years!! As a matter of fact, it was conceived and executed to lessen the need for dependance on FOREIGN OIL !!!!???? DAH !!!!!
#4724
This is an interesting dilemma. The goals of 5w-20 are two fold 1. to meet or milk EVERY last MPH as they can to pass EPA mileage tests. EVERYONE understands that individual drivers drive differently with the corresponding consequences. The engine's as you probably know are guaranteed to app 3 yr/36,000 miles, please for accuracy correct me if I am wrong. 2. And the most important. THE EMISSIONS systems are guaranteed for 7 years or 70,000, again for accuracy please correct me if I am wrong. So if you were the manufacturer, and were on the hook for 70k and off the hook for 36k where would you build the durability?
In my humble view the case for synthetic oil is even more important. I personally would not like to be faced with running 5w-20. If I were forced into it I would use synthetic. I also would have a serious discussion with with a knowledgeable factory type as to using 0-10w-30 oils, these are time "worn" and proven oils. That really concentrate on engine durability and as a by product, give good emissions systems durability. In fact, I have run a Toyota Landcruiser 15yrs and 250k and easily passed the CA smog tests which are easily the MOST strict emissions standards in the USA.
The way you have to ask is what is the statistical middle most point that your particular model car is designed to last/go etc. In the example of a 350 cu in Corvette Z06 the figure is 175,000 miles. The big BUT is that the OEM fill is synthetic Mobil One. I might add I had to REALLY dig around and deep to find that one! Using an 8 interval standard deviation (12.5 per standard deviation) you can rough the range of mileage. So each standard deviation is app 22k
Looking to the above reference I may have not presented the standard deviation clearly. With a middle most point of 175k miles the SD is more like 44k. So while variables are wildly variable, If I take good care of my car, I can reasonably expect a statistically average Chevy Z06 350 cu in engine (if the all the component parts are indeed average) to go 350,000 miles.
#4727 See #4718 for the web site reference, or if you do a search for bobistheoilguy, he has a web site and plenty of folks have posted their results. Keep in mind he is a conventional oil vendor AND he also sells oil analysis bottles. The indications are that Mobil One has improved lot from the(SJ) trisynthetic formula to the super synthetic formula. (SL)
bigorange 30, you say no one has run Chevron Supreme Dino oil past 5000 miles, and the one who ran it 5000 miles had a TBN of 2.5.
This is correct to a point,however there is an analysis report on Bobs USED OIl ANALYSIS FORUM, by Terry Dyson...02 Grand Am 2.2 4cyl Chevron Supreme 5/W/30.
This Chevron Supreme 5/W/30 oil was in service for 5,655 miles and had a TBN value of 10.So it appears driving style and type of engine all have a bearing how oil holds up.
I did not see that one. I will have to look for it and see what the metals were too. I do not have any mobil1 analysis information in the 12-15K range. I am as yet not comfortable in going that high but I know that some are. I will gradually increase mine until I feel I am at a limit with a reasonable safety margin.
my best option would be to go to Mobil 1 Synthetic and run 10W-30? I am definitely interested in high mileage, I want to be at the far end of the statistical deviation, not the short end...
Does a thinner oil offer any protection a thicker oil does not, like at startup?
I am sure your owner's manual probably lists 5w-30 as recommended, but also lists 10w-30 as an alternative. Given what you say, I personally would go with 10W-30. I personally would buy either 0, 5, or 10W-30 because on the left coast, that is how the sales sometimes go on Mobil One. If given the same price for all three, I usually go 5W-30 for the slightly extra better gas mileage than 10W-30.
Since you are in Fla I would go with 10W-30 if you drive hard, especially in Summer. In Winer or if you don't drive very hard go with 5W. If you go with longer drain intervals-go with the 10W, it holds up better.
I personally don't recall seeing any Mobil analysis past 10K miles. My limited experience with 3 cars(and oil analysis for them)is as follows. 01 GrandAM the oil was at about its TBN limit at less than 6K. 97 Cavalier with 75K miles will go 10K on a change. My 01 2L Sentra is possibly good for 10K. I realize Mobil has run lots of tests at 15K miles-but we are talking program driving with less than real world driving and fewer number of starts with periods of overnight sitting. Its probably OK, but just not for me.
You seem to be saying that SJ mineral oil should not be used beyond 1K miles, and SL mineral oil should not be used less than 4K. You then complain that people are dismissive toward your claims, so you support them by saying synthetic oil has been around for 61 years. I am not able to interpret your "As a matter of fact, it was conceived and executed to lessen the need for dependance on FOREIGN OIL !!!!???? DAH !!!!!" Please don't think me rude, but I am going to consider this point-counterpoint closed.
"paying more for Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, the old PAO Valvoline synthetic is worth it" - bluedevils.
Yes, I said that. I should have clarified that for me, I do NOT think it is worth it. I was simply acknowledging that for many people it is, and for some people I feel it is a valid move. That's in contrast to paying $4+/qt. for a pretender synthetic such as Castrol Syntec, which is a waste of money no matter who it is.
Many people are simply not comfortable running oil past 3000 miles, 5000, 7500, etc. Every person has his/her own comfort zone. We are all influenced by the world we live in, which includes numerous 'change your oil every 3k miles' quick lube TV commercials. When I was using Mobil 1 in 2 different vehicles, I changed it every 5000-6000 miles. This was the longest interval with which I was comfortable without doing oil analysis. I was not willing to do oil analysis for various reasons. I'm not sure why you think it's strange that I would not be comfortable leaving the oil in past 7500 miles. You made the same sort of statement about Mobil 1: "I am as yet not comfortable in going that high [12-15k range] but I know that some are."
Your following statement really makes me shake my head: "Based on my post earlier, how do you know that just because the bottle says SL that it really meets those standards? Why does the Cigo website call it a SJ rated oil?" Many of the oil company web sites seem to have less-than-current data. I am quite confident that if it says SL on the bottle, then it meets the SL specifications. Are you leery because of what's on the web site, or are you suspicious of the oil company and are not willing to take the product labeling at face value without conducting an independent oil analysis? To me, that is totally unnecessary. If it says SL on the label, I believe it. If that makes me gullible, which I don't think it does, so be it. I don't measure the fat content of the food I eat. I take the label at face value.
where I posted an article that stated that many oils claiming to be SL rated have been tested by API and found not to pass the SL standard. Therefore, if this is true, how can you be sure your oil is truely SL rated? API claims many are not what the claim.
As to your other point, you said you did not feel comforatble taking Mobil1 past 5-6 K miles without analysis. I said that I feel comfortable taking mine to 7500 but not more without analysis. The difference is that I am willing to do the analysis to stretch my drain interval. People that have let themselves be brainwashed by quick lube joints to believe that 3000 miles is the absolute limit for any oil are just very naive. Don't you know that they draw a financial benefit from you changing your oil that often? Can I sell you a nice oceanfront home in Kansas. Its got a beautiful view. Just sign the contract, you don't have to go look at it. Don't believe everything you read or see on TV. If you do, you are ripe pickings for a decent scam artist.
I personally am not saying it, the SJ and the SL specifications are saying it!! READ the SPECIFICATIONS!!
If after you read the new SL specifications and it does not lead to conclude that the indications that 3k is much too frequent a change, then do me a favor and buy Chevron Supreme!
Also the manufacturer's of your cars and the ones that I particularly care about are giving their specifications! In the case of my Z06, not only does the OEM say it engine warranty is guaranteed with 15k oil change intervals. I also have a onboard computer that MEASURES it. The way I drive, the computer in effect is measuring the useful oil % left AND it happens to be between 14k-15k. I have also validated with the dealer of my other vehicles that would have done my warranty work and not only did he do most of the 15k changes, he also said that he would do any engine warranty work I would need. So yes this counterpoint is closed. I am ok with all of you changing convention oil at 3k. Just make it Chevron Supreme !!! Let me also give the boogie mans' scream so that you will change your oil at 1500 miles !!!
money. That's a given. The problem arises when there is little value for the price. Oil changes at 3k may provide less value than at 3.5 or 4k but there still is value as a preventive measure. You choose to use synthetic oil as a preventive measure, that's where you find value. Others, on the other hand, can't stand the thought of ever blackening oil churning throughout their crankcase and engine and prefer to remove the suspended contaminants more frequently. to each his own.
With all this SL and SJ talk, I'm getting dizzy. What about Honda's new claim for the 2003 Accord. 1st oil change 10,000, first major service 100,000. You think this is based on synthetic oil?
either here or on Bob's site about 8-10 months ago that compared a mustang engine with standard dino oil to a similar mustang engine that had used synthetic. The interesting thing, now that you mention blackening, is that there was none with the synthetic. After draining, it was as shiny looking as it was new. The dino on the other hand was all blackened with old oil. I don't remember all of the details but believe the oil was changed at normal intervals. Does anyone else remember those pictures? Have you seen them malachy?
I have heard about that and heard that is was based on using synthetic oils. I may see if there is someone from Honda over on one of their discussion boards that can clarify. However, I don't see it on the website of a dealer in my area. They seem to still be calling for service and oil change at 7500 miles.
No, I did not read the article you posted a link for. I'm sure it's an interesting article and I may dig into it sometime, but I am not interested in spending my free time going on crusades to verify whether all of the products I use meet the specifications they claim.
I have not been brainwashed into thinking that 3000 miles is the safe limit for dino oil change interval. In most cases, 3000 miles is probably overkill. Sometimes I leave the oil in for 4000 miles instead of 3000. My impression is that the better SL oils are probably good for 4000-5000 miles in most applications, maybe more. I wouldn't go more without analysis, and I'm not interested in doing analysis. So I stay a little below my perception of the safe limit and change every 3000-4000 miles. As malachy72 noted, the 3000 mile change interval is a preventive measure, just as using synthetic oil is a preventive measure. Does one need to change dino oil every 3000 miles? Probably not. Does one need to use synthetic oil? Probably not. But what's the harm in either approach - greater cost? Increased use of a natural resource (for the dino, not for the synth)? That's not something I take lightly, but used oil is recycled and that helps.
I also remember the exclusion of information as to how the car that received conventional oil was maintained,, i.e., how often was the oil changed, how was the car driven. For that matter, I can't remember if the synthetic oil was changed every 2k, 10k, whenever. I think most of the posts I've read say that oil that doesn't change color after substantial mileage would be worrisome. There has to be contaminants from usage, if the oil doesn't suspend them, where are they?
"I think most of the posts I've read say that oil that doesn't change color after substantial mileage would be worrisome. There has to be contaminants from usage, if the oil doesn't suspend them, where are they?"
I seem to recall the same thing from the posts on the Town Hall oil forums. The consensus from people who know more about this stuff than me was that darker-colored oil is a good indicator that the oil is suspending the contaminants.
Hi Al--Chris here. I was talking with Jack Merkel (Turbo6 and Buick v8 builder--great guy that is a stand up professional) because I just bought a 87GN to play with for the winter and it has about 10k in the motor (supposedly capable of high 10's easy!) and we were discussing oils and experiences with them. He mentioned to me that since about 6-7 years ago when the government put pressure on some of the oil co's to lessen the metalic lubricating agents (I know that sounds like an oxymoron but it's true--the government said that most of the metalic lubricating agents caused too much emisions) in most of their oils--some co's complied and others did not, realizing that these metalic lubricants were too important to the viscosity if they were lessened or discarded completely.
Well Mobil 1 was one of the co's that complied and since that time the Mobil 1 oils are no where near the effectiveness that they used to be.
In fact--Jack talked of a "source" that works for Quaker state and he mentioned that there were several tests done on the top motor oils and that even though the source works at Quaker state--he mentioned that Pennzoil came out on top for holding its viscosity and lubricating qualities. When I asked Jack about Mobil 1 he quickly said he would not use it in ANY application and that he personally has seen problematic issues cuased from using Mobil 1 compared to other oils.
Anyways--just thought I would share that being that the topic was going around on the board. I just thought it was pretty compelling to hear that someone who actually earns his money from Quaker state mentioned that another oil was better. Talk to ya all later. Chris
Used conventional oil for the first 10,000 miles in my wife's Legacy. Her short trips caused this oil to sludge after after 1,000 miles. Started using Mobil 1 and have been using it for 132,000 miles changing it every 3,500 (it probably could have gone longer). Just bought a 2003 Legacy Wagon and will use Mobil 1 after the 3,000 mile break-in period.
Actually, my RSX-S's change interval is 10K miles also, with filter change every 20K miles. The manual says use Honda oil (dino) and explicitly says they don't recommend synthetic oil.
And by the way this is a high revving (8K RPM red-line) engine that turns any oil black within 2-3K miles. Go figure.
I started with the 10K miles interval initially, but then reduced the interval to 5K miles and switched to Mobil 1. As I said earlier, Mobil 1 increased the MPG by about 3% making Mobil 1 the cheaper oil (you buy a lot of gas in 5K miles so 3% increase in MPG is a lot!)
I'd agree with you on all counts - 10k on dino oil is probably too long. 20k on a filter is probably WAY too long. Our 2002 Kia Sedona owners manual specifies a 7500 mile oil change interval and 15000 mile filter change interval under the 'normal driving' schedule. No way would I leave an oil filter in for 15,000 miles.
Well, I guess that fits with a "buy things with cheapest initial cost and don't worry about the long term costs" attitude. Do you shop for doctors like that too? Do you buy your dishes at the Dollar Tree?
Comments
I do not feel that synthetic oil would increase the lifespan of the engines in our vehicles at all. I may be wrong on this, but it is extremely difficult to prove the contrary and so far I don't recall seeing anything on the Town Hall that has done so. Synthetic oil has several advantages, such as smoother running engines in temperature extremes, easier cold starting, better protection in extreme situations. I just don't think longer engine life has been shown, to me at least, it belongs in that list.
You said 'the performance of the oil should determine whether it is a good or bad one.' Valid statement. The problem is, determining 'performance' is not that easy. Sure, oil can be analyzed and that provides useful data. But what effect will that have on how well my engine runs, how long it lasts, how fuel-efficient it is, etc. To me, these are the indicators of performance, not just the oil analysis data itself. And it is those types of questions that I believe are still very difficult for people to answer about any engine oil.
Would it be cool to know that my Citgo SuperGard had a TBN of 4.5 after 5,000 miles of use in my Kia Sedona minivan's engine? Sure it would. And because there are guidelines developed by industry groups and labs that would show that is pretty good 'performance,' that in itself is not enough for me. I want to know the answers to the aforementioned questions, particularly how long the engine will last.
One thing I am curious about is what makes you think Citgo SuperGard is a decent oil - published specs, personal experience of others, mechanic recommendations, oil analyses posted on the internet, etc.
http://www.corrosionvci.com/supergua.htm
Its not as good as other SL rated dinos (like Chevron Supreme) on the market. I expect it to take you 3 K miles with traditional performance on traditional engines. I believe today's engines need better and we can strive to better than traditional performance and life from our engines. It only makes economic sense.
If Bluedevils is concerned about using an SL rate oil, but having too much SJ in stock, not to worry as he burns at the rate of 10 qts per 20k miles. Assuming he does 3k oil changes with 7 qts per change x 7 changes, He will blow off a total of 57 qts before you know it(20k miles)! This time ought to give him enough opportunity to stock up and/or search for a GOOD SL like Chevron Supreme !!!(go Chevron Supreme!!!) Maybe by then Citgo will also have an SL also.
For my TLC's, that 57 qts (if it were synthetic) would represent app 122,143 miles (@ 15k intervals x 8.1428571 changes), to give some perspective, that amount of mileage is what an average driver of 12000 miles a year, puts on his vehicle in 10 years.
However, I think you would agree with me, that while it would be of preference and sense to go the the "new" "better" SL rating, the SJ rated oil would be more than adequate for the application that he finds himself applying?
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Guidechart2002.pdf
Again, I have to say, you get what you pay for.
http://www.synthetics-unlimited.com/apitesting.htm
I personally am excited about the new Mobil One Super Synthetic 0-5w-30. I see that buried in the technical justification for the new SL rating that Mobil One SS has more moly !!! Not to mention better high temp deposit control and better protection curve (again this is really lost on folks that do 3k oil changes, i.e. a waste) and lower oil consumption. Although in the case of consuming 10qts per 20k, it will probably not help in the least.
Consumer Reports, many years ago hinted that they wanted to do more comprehensive oil test. They indicated at the time that in the CONVENTIONAL oil product line that there were THEN many instances of "OFF SPEC". So much so that the data indicated that it was in fact a real trend.
While they abandoned the project as too "expense" intense. I for one wanted them to do the test.
ruking, your TLC must be 20 times better than my Trooper since my Trooper burns 20 times more oil.
As someone who would not be willing to leave any oil in an engine more than 7500 miles max, I do not feel that SL-rated conventional oil at approx. $1/qt. is a 'poor buy' or a 'poor value' in comparison to synthetics at $3.50-$6/qt.
"ruking, your TLC must be 20 times better than my Trooper since my Trooper burns 20 times more oil. "
No, according to your information that you burn 10 qts and I burn 1/4-1/2 qts in 20k mile. You burn 9.5 qts MORE. WHICH is far less than mine..., OR your "...Trooper burns 20x more oil", which you have noted.
Would I like to match your "burn rate?" Absolutely NOT!
Would I want you to decrease your "burn rate?" Since you indicate comfort in it and have not been stopped for excessive burning of oil on the highway, I am comfortable, if you are comfortable.
It is very interesting you say this and yet you are using a 73 cent/quart dino oil. I do agree that this is a very blanket statement. Every rule has its exceptions as I mentioned when I first said it here. There are even exceptions in the field of oil. I agree that a SL dino like Chevron Supreme, Penzoil or Quaker State may be a good value compared to a SJ dino but I do not agree that any SL dino is as good as a synthetic. I also agree that there are some oils pretending to be synthetic that are raping the guys that buy them. Based on my post earlier, how do you know that just because the bottle says SL that it really meets those standards? Why does the Cigo website call it a SJ rated oil?
I am just having some difficulties with the statement of "...someone who would not be willing to leave any oil in an engine more than 7500 miles max...". That is just strange. When you were using synthetic, how often did you change it?
Coincidently if you look at the SL specification for performance longevity 4k is about what the new SL standard is also!
Let me, if I may, show you that the 3k has been and will be technically incorrect. The specification for SJ (on back) has really been at 1000 miles. So if you were used to doing 3k oil changes you are really -2000 !! Now the new SL specification is a min of 4k.By any measure a significant improvement? So again, if you change at 3k you are (+1000) in effect not taking full advantage of the 4-7.5k of "still left" oil use ability, ie the extra protection would be a waste. So conventional SL rated oil if you are at all fastidious about it, is good from 4-7,500 miles. The reason why many folks DO NOT do oil analysis and THIS is really the main issue, whether folks acknowledge it or not, is COST !! Or higher cost "PERCEPTION" Why would you spend 20-30 bucks for oil analysis when you can change oil and filter for that price and less?
I have shown repeatedly that using synthetics in specific parameters is cheaper per mile lubricated than conventional oil. YET at one end folks look at you thinking BS and the other end being a polite hum let us see if the real world bears this BS out!!! Well as you all know synthetic oil was invented during WW2, i.e., been in the real world for at least 61 years!! As a matter of fact, it was conceived and executed to lessen the need for dependance on FOREIGN OIL !!!!???? DAH !!!!!
#4724
This is an interesting dilemma. The goals of 5w-20 are two fold 1. to meet or milk EVERY last MPH as they can to pass EPA mileage tests. EVERYONE understands that individual drivers drive differently with the corresponding consequences. The engine's as you probably know are guaranteed to app 3 yr/36,000 miles, please for accuracy correct me if I am wrong. 2. And the most important. THE EMISSIONS systems are guaranteed for 7 years or 70,000, again for accuracy please correct me if I am wrong.
So if you were the manufacturer, and were on the hook for 70k and off the hook for 36k where would you build the durability?
In my humble view the case for synthetic oil is even more important. I personally would not like to be faced with running 5w-20. If I were forced into it I would use synthetic. I also would have a serious discussion with with a knowledgeable factory type as to using 0-10w-30 oils, these are time "worn" and proven oils. That really concentrate on engine durability and as a by product, give good emissions systems durability. In fact, I have run a Toyota Landcruiser 15yrs and 250k and easily passed the CA smog tests which are easily the MOST strict emissions standards in the USA.
The way you have to ask is what is the statistical middle most point that your particular model car is designed to last/go etc. In the example of a 350 cu in Corvette Z06 the figure is 175,000 miles. The big BUT is that the OEM fill is synthetic Mobil One. I might add I had to REALLY dig around and deep to find that one! Using an 8 interval standard deviation (12.5 per standard deviation) you can rough the range of mileage. So each standard deviation is app 22k
Looking to the above reference I may have not presented the standard deviation clearly. With a middle most point of 175k miles the SD is more like 44k. So while variables are wildly variable, If I take good care of my car, I can reasonably expect a statistically average Chevy Z06 350 cu in engine (if the all the component parts are indeed average) to go 350,000 miles.
See #4718 for the web site reference, or if you do a search for bobistheoilguy, he has a web site and plenty of folks have posted their results. Keep in mind he is a conventional oil vendor AND he also sells oil analysis bottles. The indications are that Mobil One has improved lot from the(SJ) trisynthetic formula to the super synthetic formula. (SL)
This is correct to a point,however there is an analysis report on Bobs USED OIl ANALYSIS FORUM,
by Terry Dyson...02 Grand Am 2.2 4cyl Chevron Supreme 5/W/30.
This Chevron Supreme 5/W/30 oil was in service for 5,655 miles and had a TBN value of 10.So it appears driving style and type of engine all have a bearing how oil holds up.
Bill
Does a thinner oil offer any protection a thicker oil does not, like at startup?
I personally don't recall seeing any Mobil analysis past 10K miles. My limited experience with 3 cars(and oil analysis for them)is as follows. 01 GrandAM the oil was at about its TBN limit at less than 6K. 97 Cavalier with 75K miles will go 10K on a change. My 01 2L Sentra is possibly good for 10K. I realize Mobil has run lots of tests at 15K miles-but we are talking program driving with less than real world driving and fewer number of starts with periods of overnight sitting. Its probably OK, but just not for me.
Please don't think me rude, but I am going to consider this point-counterpoint closed.
Don't you get it?
Yes, I said that. I should have clarified that for me, I do NOT think it is worth it. I was simply acknowledging that for many people it is, and for some people I feel it is a valid move. That's in contrast to paying $4+/qt. for a pretender synthetic such as Castrol Syntec, which is a waste of money no matter who it is.
Many people are simply not comfortable running oil past 3000 miles, 5000, 7500, etc. Every person has his/her own comfort zone. We are all influenced by the world we live in, which includes numerous 'change your oil every 3k miles' quick lube TV commercials. When I was using Mobil 1 in 2 different vehicles, I changed it every 5000-6000 miles. This was the longest interval with which I was comfortable without doing oil analysis. I was not willing to do oil analysis for various reasons. I'm not sure why you think it's strange that I would not be comfortable leaving the oil in past 7500 miles. You made the same sort of statement about Mobil 1: "I am as yet not comfortable in going that high [12-15k range] but I know that some are."
Your following statement really makes me shake my head: "Based on my post earlier, how do you know that just because the bottle says SL that it really meets those standards? Why does the Cigo website call it a SJ rated oil?" Many of the oil company web sites seem to have less-than-current data. I am quite confident that if it says SL on the bottle, then it meets the SL specifications. Are you leery because of what's on the web site, or are you suspicious of the oil company and are not willing to take the product labeling at face value without conducting an independent oil analysis? To me, that is totally unnecessary. If it says SL on the label, I believe it. If that makes me gullible, which I don't think it does, so be it. I don't measure the fat content of the food I eat. I take the label at face value.
As to your other point, you said you did not feel comforatble taking Mobil1 past 5-6 K miles without analysis. I said that I feel comfortable taking mine to 7500 but not more without analysis. The difference is that I am willing to do the analysis to stretch my drain interval. People that have let themselves be brainwashed by quick lube joints to believe that 3000 miles is the absolute limit for any oil are just very naive. Don't you know that they draw a financial benefit from you changing your oil that often? Can I sell you a nice oceanfront home in Kansas. Its got a beautiful view. Just sign the contract, you don't have to go look at it. Don't believe everything you read or see on TV. If you do, you are ripe pickings for a decent scam artist.
I personally am not saying it, the SJ and the SL specifications are saying it!! READ the SPECIFICATIONS!!
If after you read the new SL specifications and it does not lead to conclude that the indications that 3k is much too frequent a change, then do me a favor and buy Chevron Supreme!
Also the manufacturer's of your cars and the ones that I particularly care about are giving their specifications! In the case of my Z06, not only does the OEM say it engine warranty is guaranteed with 15k oil change intervals. I also have a onboard computer that MEASURES it. The way I drive, the computer in effect is measuring the useful oil % left AND it happens to be between 14k-15k. I have also validated with the dealer of my other vehicles that would have done my warranty work and not only did he do most of the 15k changes, he also said that he would do any engine warranty work I would need. So yes this counterpoint is closed. I am ok with all of you changing convention oil at 3k. Just make it Chevron Supreme !!! Let me also give the boogie mans' scream so that you will change your oil at 1500 miles !!!
http://www.hondacarsofhickory.com/
There is a discussion about this though that might help. It doesn't mention if it is synthetic or what kind of oil it is.
big_dog "Early first oil change for 2003 Accord?" Dec 1, 2002 1:59pm
I have not been brainwashed into thinking that 3000 miles is the safe limit for dino oil change interval. In most cases, 3000 miles is probably overkill. Sometimes I leave the oil in for 4000 miles instead of 3000. My impression is that the better SL oils are probably good for 4000-5000 miles in most applications, maybe more. I wouldn't go more without analysis, and I'm not interested in doing analysis. So I stay a little below my perception of the safe limit and change every 3000-4000 miles. As malachy72 noted, the 3000 mile change interval is a preventive measure, just as using synthetic oil is a preventive measure. Does one need to change dino oil every 3000 miles? Probably not. Does one need to use synthetic oil? Probably not. But what's the harm in either approach - greater cost? Increased use of a natural resource (for the dino, not for the synth)? That's not something I take lightly, but used oil is recycled and that helps.
I seem to recall the same thing from the posts on the Town Hall oil forums. The consensus from people who know more about this stuff than me was that darker-colored oil is a good indicator that the oil is suspending the contaminants.
Well Mobil 1 was one of the co's that complied and since that time the Mobil 1 oils are no where near the effectiveness that they used to be.
In fact--Jack talked of a "source" that works for Quaker state and he mentioned that there were several tests done on the top motor oils and that even though the source works at Quaker state--he mentioned that Pennzoil came out on top for holding its viscosity and lubricating qualities. When I asked Jack about Mobil 1 he quickly said he would not use it in ANY application and that he personally has seen problematic issues cuased from using Mobil 1 compared to other oils.
Anyways--just thought I would share that being that the topic was going around on the board. I just thought it was pretty compelling to hear that someone who actually earns his money from Quaker state mentioned that another oil was better. Talk to ya all later. Chris
Can anyone else add to this discussion?
And by the way this is a high revving (8K RPM red-line) engine that turns any oil black within 2-3K miles. Go figure.
I started with the 10K miles interval initially, but then reduced the interval to 5K miles and switched to Mobil 1. As I said earlier, Mobil 1 increased the MPG by about 3% making Mobil 1 the cheaper oil (you buy a lot of gas in 5K miles so 3% increase in MPG is a lot!)
I think the 10K interval for dino oil is too long. And 20K for the filter definitely sounds too long.