Synthetic motor oil

csandste

both oils should be safe for far greater mileage than that.

chas_in_okc

Someone bought out Citgo. Not sure who.
Phillips and Conoco (both Oklahoma oil companys)are just finishing up a merger. Read somewhere they now own these brand names. phillips 66, Conoco, 76, Kendall, circle K, Coastal and Jet. They plan on making a big push in the motor oil business with the Kendall name. They have new products ready to sell under that name. The former owner let Kendall slip in the oil wars. Phillips/Conoco are half owners with Chevron of the Chevron Phillips Chemical Company (CPChem).

csandste

The company is owned by PDV America, Inc., an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Petroleos de Venezuela, S.A., the national oil company of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

fleetwoodsimca

It's like a giant jigsaw puzzle: "Phillips/Conoco are half owners with Chevron of the Chevron Phillips Chemical Company (CPChem)." Is that the same Chevron of ChevronTexaco? How is the judge going to keep a clear view of this, when the anti-trust suits are filed later? Who's who? Who's on first? Has Citgo disappeared? (:oÞ

americanflag

(at 4500 posts they should call it a string or maybe a rope) I haved decided to use Mobil 1 in my 2003 Mustang GT, starting at 5K miles to allow the rings to seat as suggested. Also, as discussed in post 4530, I too have short driving distance issues, meaning short commutes that are hard on the car. Given the cost of the car and my limited budget, I want the car to last. So I will incur the extra cost of synthetic and I will still change the oil at 3K miles intervals. Also, I am going with the Mobil 1 filter.

My question is what grade of Mobil 1 should I use? I checked today and the choices are 10W-30, 5W-30, and 15W-50 (or something like that). What would you recommend?

fleetwoodsimca

You might be wise to use the weight/grade called for by Ford for that engine, changing from mineral based over to synthetic Mobil. There really isn't a lot of difference in the API SL mineral products and the API SL synthetic products, except the price. And it's always good to take the opportunity to protect your warranty in any easy way available.

bigorange30

Do you have any test data of dino oil at high drain interval (>7000 miles) that shows it is as good as synthetic? I would sure like to see something like that. You seem to be throwing out an unfounded claim.

bluedevils

fleetwood is basing his statements on the apparent strong similarities between many of the hydrocracked 'conventional' oils and many of the hydrocracked 'synthetics.' The topic has been discussed at length around here. You've been around here a while - I'm assuming you recall the past discussions. I tend to agree with him. The differences between some of these oils are more in the packaging and marketing, not in the actual composition or performance.

Prodding him for some sample results is absolutely valid, but I don't think the absence of such samples from fleetwood means he is making unfounded claims.

bigorange30

but I see them all as unfounded until I see data. I guess as an engineer, I always want to see unbiased data to prove a point. I don't think any dino can go over 7000 miles and still be offering good lubrication. Data has been widely published to show that synthetics can go 7, 8, 10 or even 15 K miles and still be offering adequate lubrication. Does anyone take these so called "equivalent" dinos like Chevron to 7, 10 or 15 k miles without changing?

csandste

In fact changing any SL oil at 3K is probably overkill.

malachy72

that you can/should extend dino oil changes past 4-5k miles. There is however more evidence that you should not extend synthetic changes much past 6-7k miles due to a depletion of the additive package in most oils at that interval.

dave594

What are the group's opinion of the 0W Mobil 1? Who could benefit from using the 0W oil?

bigorange30

(including my own car posted here a few months ago) that shows that synthetics can easily be taken past 7 K.

armtdm

Well, I use a 0W30 in one car but it is the Amsoil not the Mobil 1., My experience is that it lubricates as well as the 10W30 I had in there before (Amsoil is slighlty higher in the 30W viscocity range then Mobil 1) and it is hot here in the summer. I leave it in 0ne year (about 8000 miles) and change the filter at 6 months, No porblems with it. Highly recommend for very cold climates.

malachy72

analysis of your car, who's to argue. I wouldn't advise anyone to extend drains on their own vehicle without a used oil analysis showing that their engine and driving habits indicate it is warranted. Just too many bad analysis results and documented engine problems (see Toyota) to take that chance with any oil change, synthetic included, being cheap preventive maintenance.

ruking1

#4620

In the case of the Toyota's documented engine problems, I have seen some threads (on Edmunds) saying that even though the engine oil and filter change was done by the dealer, the dealer denied the engine warranty work.

The bottom line? There are places in the Toyota engine that EXCEED the parameters that engine oil is supposed to operate!! NO amount of changing is going to work, until the engine area is redesigned to run at or below the parameters the engine oil is designed to operate. Implying or saying that the synthetic oil CAN NOT be cooked is just plain unreal.

fleetwoodsimca

My answer to americanflag in #4611 was based on his question posed in #4610. Relying on what I have learned over the past many years concerning comparisons of (nonester based) synthetic oils and the latest (Chevron technology based) hydrocracked mineral oils, I am inclined to think there is little difference in the products. In my reply to americanflag, I did not clutter up the sentences with provisos aimed at any extended mileage schemes for any lubrication products or categories. He made it plain that he will change every 3K miles, and I firmly believe that under his utilization plan, there is little to no difference to be observed between the hydrocracked and the synthetic. And frankly, I don't really think there is much difference between the two types of motor oils at all, comparing API SL category products, regardless of utilization. I'd be interested to read any reliable scientific analyses you might post here in this thread concerning this topic. I don't have any to post, myself.

bigorange30

my oil analysis results. Armtdm also posted one in #4428 that was at 12 K intervals that looks pretty good. The main criterion I am using to say that the oil is not broken down is the TBN > 2. The wear metals are also a good indicator once you get above 20 K on the engine.

I understand what you are saying about using the cheaper dino oil if you intend to change every 3 K no matter what but to say

"I don't really think there is much difference between the two types of motor oils at all, comparing API SL category products, regardless of utilization."

sure is a bold statement when you know that synthetic can go 7, 10 or 15 K miles and dino is in trouble past 5 K. How in the world can there be no difference? I submit that these analyses are enough to say that there is certainly a big difference between synthetic and dino even among the SL category.

There has been no analysis that I have seen on Chevron or any other "super" dino that leads me to believe they are even in the same league with a full synthetic of any brand.

fleetwoodsimca

I'd like to see a molecular analysis of what constitutes the new hydrocracked SL standard, and compare that to a molecular analysis of synthesized SL. The additive packages should be excluded. The diester based oils should be excluded, of course.
Oh, by the way, I didn't have to muster any boldness at all to share with any and all readers that I THINK there is little difference...etc. That is simply my conceptual opinion based on the idea that synthesized molecules are by definition built up by linking together "building blocks" to construct the desired molecules, while the hyrdrocracking process begins with overly lengthy and large molecules that are cleaved down to the smaller desired molecules. The percentage of "junk" molecules residual in each category may be very important to overall performance. My reading over time has influenced me to think that the new SL mineral product from Chevron, for example, is so near the same product as say, Mobil synthetics, that Chevron could have legally referred to their new product as "synthetic," and that possibly the reason they have chosen not to do that is that they choose to be semantically correct.
I have no interest in groping for the outer limits of mileage one might squeeze out of any oil. I am interested in using products that can be counted on to give absolutely adequate performance over a reasonable mileage, and doing so economically.

ruking1

#4624

That is why I use Mobil One SS and use the 15k intervals. I have used it that way for 250k for a single machine and combined mileage of over 600k. NO ill effects!!

mdecamps

About your new Mustang....if I'm not mistaken, that car calls for a 5W20. If I were you I WOULD use Mobil one and go with a 5W30 until you get out of warranty and then possibly a 10W30 or a 0W40 after the warranty period. 3K changes are really overkill for Mobil, even if you do a lot of short trips. I would go with an absolute minimum of 5K (probably 7-10K)intervals. I'm getting ready to do a 10K in my truck followed by an oil analysis. I don't forsee any problems with that, however. Ruking always posts that he does 15K intervals....you would be silly to waste your money every 3K when it is not even close to being necessary. Money is well-spent on the Mobil 1 filter.

americanflag

some new developements. After Fleets post I checked my oil cap and sure enough, he was right and you are right, it calls for 5W-20. I called Mobil 1, and they said they did not recommend I use their oil until March when the 0W-20 is scheduled to be introduced.

I was pretty burned because the oil change place that has been doing my changes had been using 10W-30. When I called today they said it offers more protection. These are the same guys that recommended the Lucas Oil stabilizer, which you guys set me straight on (to avoid it). Ford said using 10W-30 could void the warranty.

(Why do I think that anything, but anything, good or bad, could void a warranty? Sir,you changed your oil every 3k with the manufacturer's recommended viscosity - I'm sorry, that voids your warranty... I think that is a standard dealership answer to any, but any, question! Sir, that could void the warranty.)

Back to my post, so I called Ford. I think the 5W-20 is so new not many synthetics are out yet. So I took it to them and let them change the oil today the right way. You guys can see I baby my car, taking it to dealer felt like taking a child back to it's daddy. I think when Ford makes Motorcraft in synthetic, I may switch. Right now the Motorcraft 5W-20 is a blend.

I feel reassured by Fleets comments on synthetics and regular. Again, I am uptight enough about this car that I plan on changing at 3K intervals. Also, I would think the short mileage commutes could build up toxins in the engine oil which I don't see how the filter could get out. It's not that the oil would have lost viscosity, it is what byproducts would have built up in the oil. I don't see how it would matter whether it was synthetic or regular in this respect. Thanks for the help!

bigorange30

You are a marketing department’s dream customer if they can get you to buy something just because of something they say. I have first hand experience at this from the other side. Marketing people can really make something sound better than it really is. I am sure the developers of some products are amazed at the marketing “fluff” that is written about his products. Take it from a person who has patents on products that marketing has made sound like the greatest thing since the telephone. It’s their job to get people to buy it. They sometimes walk a very fine line between legal marketing and false advertising. Now, I am not saying that Chevron SL grade is one of these products but until I see results from an unbiased source, then it is just “marketing fluff” to me. Have you ever heard someone describe a blind date for you as having a good personality? That’s a good example of “marketing fluff”. So, don’t believe everything you read. Always ask for unbiased data to back up the claims.

I don’t care about the process it’s made from. The key is, how does it perform? There is always a reason behind the decisions we make. Some buy oil because they like the color of the bottle. Some buy it because it is the most recognized brand they know because of all the advertising they see. I personally believe is should be one of the following:

1. It provides the best lubrication
2. It lowers the operating temperature of the parts
3. It extends the life of the engine
4. It costs less (taking all costs including usage, mpg and engine life into account)

Now, my reason for using Mobil1 is mainly #4 with indications from things I’ve heard about reasons 1-3. #4 is reason enough for me to try it while I prove to myself that 1-3 are true or not true.

If Chevron SL is not better than dino but it costs a little more than dino, then they are just making extra profit off of you. If it is as good as synthetic, why don’t they advertise that you can take 7-15 K miles between changes?

vetteryan

"The additive packages should be excluded," is a silly statement when compaqring two oils. Additive packages are what differentiate's SA oil from SB from SC etc... The additive packages are probably much better in the M1 than in Cheveron. The base oils may be close, but it is the additives (a huge percentage of every bottle of oil) that make a huge difference in determining how well an oil works. The TBN are much different in these 2 oils for example!

bluedevils

Chevron Supreme is $1.08 a quart at Wal-Mart. I have seen no advertising of this product of any kind. To me, it is an oil marketed and priced as conventional but which has similar characteristics of many of the 'synthetics' such as Castrol Syntec that are widely considered not to be true synthetics but are still priced as such. To me, that's where the marketing fluff is, not with the Chevron oil which does not purport to be anything more than it is.

bigorange30

documented better performance. Again, lets see some data that says Chevron can go 7-15 K miles between changes and I will be a believer. It will never be as good as synthetic until it can do that.

My money is on the Mobil1 because it has proven itself cheaper than any dino.

fleetwoodsimca

"...silly statement..." You say? You actually got it right when you said the base oils might be close. The way you determine that is by comparing the base oils of the synthetic to the base oils of the hydrocracked. That was the whole idea. That is the reason you would want to disregard the additives. It is the reason the ester based oils should not be included-- their base oils are a different family of chemicals requiring separate consideration.
By all means, I think you and bigorange30 should continue to use Mobil 1 if you so choose. I have nothing to prove to you at all. I merely shared my opinion on the matter, in this forum. I do not desire to use Mobil 1 myself.

bluedevils

There are synthetics such as Redline, Mobil 1, and Amsoil, that I believe offer better overall performance and can be safely used for longer durations than conventional oils. However, there are other products marketed and priced as synthetics. Unless someone defines the term 'synthetic,' I apply my own definition. Many people think if it says 'synthetic' or 'full synthetic' on the bottle that the product must be superior to the conventional oils that cost a fraction of the price. My impression based on following the Edmunds oil-related boards the past couple years is that's not always the case.

In my opinion, the fluff lies in a $4.79 bottle of Castrol Syntec, not a $1.08 bottle of Chevron Supreme or a $1.13 bottle of Citgo Supergard.

I respect the folks who spend a premium price for one of the best oils available. For a while, I did this myself as I used Mobil 1 Tri-Synth in both our vehicles. My preference now is to change with a well-regarded conventional oil with group 2/group 3/hydrocracked/whatever-they-are-called base stocks and change the oil every 3,000 miles. Currently I use Citgo Supergard and Chevron Supreme. Especially since one of our vehicles consumes a quart every 1,500-2,000 miles, this is the most sensible approach for me. I would rather buy oil for a buck a quart and change every 3k miles than bother with, and pay for, oil analysis and try to reach change intervals of 3-4 times as long as the 3k interval I use.

I'm not saying Chevron Supreme will hold up for 7k+ miles. There's probably a strong likelihood that it can't. What I'm suggesting is that many products labeled, marketed, and priced as synthetic can't either.

ruking1

#4631

I also concur with you. Believe me, I would run Chevron Supreme for 15k intervals if I could !!!
The fact of the matter is that synthetics such as Amsoil, Redline, Mobil One ARE better !

bigorange30

and you believe Mobil1 can (I am assuming you believe this.), then how can you say their equal? Let's just limit it to Chevron and Mobil1 at this point.

bluedevils

There are too many variables for one to conclude that synthetic oil in general or a particular synthetic oil is cheaper per mile to use than conventional oil in general or a particular conventional oil, or vice versa. It's just not that simple. I appreciate that some synthetics can be safely used for 10k or even 15k miles. However, a buck-a-quart conventional that is changed every 4-5k miles sure looks pretty cheap compared with $4-a-quart synthetic changed every 10k miles. On the other hand, a $4-a-quart synthetic changed every 15k miles is cheaper to use than a $1.79/qt conventional (eg Castrol GTX) changed every 3k miles. There are many situations and examples that can be presented to show that one type is cheaper to use than the other.

fleetwoodsimca

I have used many brands of synthetic in the past, and eventually came back to mineral based oils. I never developed the emotional investment in synthetics that I often detect in this thread. Open minded comparisons, and expressions of preferences are worth while. Let us not forget that this is not the TV program "Crossfire." (:o]

bigorange30

I have seen a 1.5 mpg or 11% increase in mpg on my QX4. At $1.40/gallon, I save $72 every oil change (7 K miles).

All I'm asking for is some data. I would like to spend less on the oil too because then I could save even more than I do now.

bluedevils

I never said Chevron and Mobil 1 are equal. In fact, I tried hard to make it clear I was not saying that. Apparently, my posts were not clear enough. My impression is that Mobil 1 is a better oil and that it will hold up better and longer than Chevron or any other conventional oil.

bigorange30, because you and I have different definitions of 'synthetic oil' it has caused you to feel that I am disagreeing with you. I really don't think we are disagreeing.

ruking1

This is why I find it hard to believe that folks really believe that conventional oil is as good or better than synthetic. The proof is in the pudding. If folks have that kind of faith in conventional oil, then why aren't they running it 15k instead of the 3-5k? I think they know intuitively what I have said: conventional oil CAN NOT cut it ! I would do it, but I'd make you all agree to pay for all the damages that I would incur as a result! Again, I have had no such concerns with Mobil One and 15k intervals.

americanflag

If I take a new car and use Mobil 1 AND change every 3,000 miles, is there any advantage versus using a blend or conventional and changing every 3,000? If so, how much real world advantage?

bluedevils

Most folks who claim better fuel economy with synthetic do not quote nearly as high a figure as the 11% you are reporting. I saw no measurable difference in 20k miles of driving the vehicle with synthetic oil and the other variables being pretty similar. It makes sense that a true synthetic might help to boost fuel economy, but most folks claim somewhere around 3%.

Again, it's not as simple as saying 'I get 11% better fuel economy' and extrapolating that to all people in all situations in all vehicles. In some cases, synthetic is cheaper to use. In some cases it isn't. I don't see how you can disagree with that.

ruking1

#4642

How could you disagree with: I change my oil after every time I drive it and it runs just fine!!??

bluedevils

There are certainly more knowledgeable folks on these subjects than me, but my answer to your question would be "no." If you are going to change your oil every 3,000 miles - note that many oil enthusiasts would scold you for this as being an unnecessarily frequent and costly change interval and they may be 100% right - I don't think your engine will last any longer on a true synthetic than on a conventional oil.

bluedevils

Your comment in #4643 is the reason why I don't post here very often. Here I am, a person who takes a greater interest than most people in maintaining his vehicles well and who has been willing to use synthetic lubricants despite the higher cost per unit volume (not necessarily higher operating cost - let's leave that out of this discussion). By all appearances, I display good reasoning and common sense in my posts here. I try hard not to bash those with whom I disagree. Tonight, I have not bashed anybody in these discussions despite disagreeing with some of what is being said. And yet you insist on making fun of me with what I feel is a totally stupid comment in #4643. I feel that I respect your views but feel that you neither understand nor respect mine. Good day to you.

bigorange30

In the case you present you will probably see an advantage long term but it will be difficult to measure and it will cost you more money. The advantage I believe you will see will be in a longer engine life. You probably won't know it until you have done it on 3-5 cars. To really prove this point, you would probably have to buy 2 identical cars with exactly the same engine and use synthetic in one and dino in the other to make this comparison. One would be crazy to go to this much trouble just to prove a point. If you just really love a particular car and intent to buy 2 of them anyway, then you could do it easily.

ruking1

#4645

I respect your views, but at the same time I am taking your position to one end of the logic that YOU set up. I am sorry that you don't like that. I understand and respect your opinions, but at the same time it is good to put parameters, so folks can really see.

fleetwoodsimca

Nobody can tell you what you "ought" to do. They can only tell you what they do, and what they think they would do if their situation was the same as yours. I change oil and filter every 3K on 5 cars and trucks. I use major brand top-of-the-line mineral oils. I use standard grade, high quality oil filters such as those manufactured by Champion Laboratories and Wix. In the past, I used synthetics, and eventually realized that for me it was an unnecessary expense, and a matter of "gilding the lily" based on my unwillingness to go for extended oil intervals.

ruking1

#4648

For me, I would be perpetually under the cars (12-15k per car x 5/3k=25 times!!! 2.08 times a month! Or 25 times a year vs 5 x a year. The other difference is that I do extended oil intervals. The other thing is that changing oil has NEVER been fun for me!!

bluedevils

The discussion was about cost of operation, not 'preferred change interval.' Your previous post offered nothing to the discussion.

If you think a 3,000 mile change interval is overkill, say so. I have no problem with someone saying that. Even better, say why you think so. To me, making a comment like 'you can always change your oil after every trip' shows you do NOT respect my viewpoint. If you do respect the viewpoint, then don't make such comments. If you don't respect the viewpoint, fine. Just don't say that you do. Comments like that really make it appear that you do not respect my viewpoint.

ruking1

I do 15k interval oil and filter changes. If one enjoys doing 5 oil changes in the place of one, I would just hope it is an enjoyable experience. Actually since it is commonly acknowledged that Chevron Supreme is indeed a great conventional oil, I should really shut up, for I stand to gain by folks using frequent oil changes like 3000 miles or less oil change intervals !!!(I hold a good amount of the stock) So in that sense, viva la differ'ence! So in that sense I am saying what I do, and I should advocate that folks change oil at 3k intervals and use Chevron of course!!

bluedevils

I would never be willing to leave oil in an engine for 15k miles, no matter what the analysis showed. I don't mind changing oil every 3-4 months. Actually, I enjoy it.

ruking1

After a million or so miles you will get over it!

My children and I thank you for sending them to med and B school !!

bluedevils

At a buck a quart and 20k miles per year times 2 vehicles, I'm spending less than 75 bucks a year on oil.

bigorange30

that buy their product unnecessarily. They are smiling all the way to the bank.

Bluedevils: I spend about the same $/yr on oil on my 2 cars with synthetic.