Synthetic motor oil

ruking1

#4400

JP4 is jet fuel. Oil analysis has been around for a long time. It is just that it has finally trickled down into the consumer market! I used to have an NDI or NON Destruct Inspection shop, of which oil analysis was a bread and butter procedure.

rocky5656

I agree with the regular oil analysis for fleets, I required an analysis on every oil change in a bus fleet I maintained, due to the 2 stroke Detroit diesels having a common problem with the injector tubes leaking antifreeze into the engine. Analysis would highlite the problem long before any damage was done. One engine prevented from catastrophic failure payed the analysis cost 10 times over. The other thing I watched for was fuel leakage (fuel lines to injectors under valve cover), and dirt leakage (air intake sucking dirt). Also common was the rear alternator bearing going bad, pouring iron filings into the engine (high iron, high mileage on alt. = fix it).

However, I still have trouble with the extended oil drain intervals, just doesn't "seem" right to let it stay in so long, you always feel you need to change it out just because of , what, tradition? Where did the 15k mileage come from?

Yours,

sgrd0q

Quite interesting. The opera gloves site that is

sgrd0q

Thanks guys for your input! I'll be back, should I have any motor oil questions.

eric105

Well, I got my 15,000 mile change from a friend who is a mechanic who did it himself. I think the old 3k or 3 month interval has been out dated for some time now. I think most of the oils out there should be able to go 5000 unless under the worst/hardest of use. I think for a lot of us, we actually enjoy changing oil, I think that it makes us feel better, like we're doing the right thing. Problem is, while the oil companies and Jiffy lube are happy to see you do 3k oil changes, oil is a vanishing resource, and technical improvements in the engines and the oils mean you can consume less oil safely. If everybody doing 3000 mile changes simply went to 4000 mile changes you would use a lot less oil.

tboner

While I'm not a fan of 3K oil changes. (My Buick goes 5K if I'm using conventional oil and 10K on synthetic) The notion that 3K vs 4K will save a lot of crude oil doesn't hold water.

Yes as a percentage of crude used to make motor oil, it will go down. But as a percentage of crude oil used by a vehicle, it is insignificant.

If you take my 87 LeSabre that has averaged 23.x MPG over the last 18 months in urban driving, I would use about 44 gallons of fuel every 1K miles, or about 220 gallons every 5K. Compare that with the 4.5 quarts of oil even if it took 10x the volume of crude to make a quart of oil, the consumption of fuel is the biggest consumer of crude oil, and fuel was produced 1 for 1 out of that same crude. (IIRC, a 42gal barrel of crude produces about 50% of that same volume in gasoline, plus the other things produced in the fractioning stack. See http://www.wspa.org/chart7.htm)

However, I do agree that the disposal of waste oil is a smaller problem if one changed every 5K instead of Iffy Lube's recommendation of 3 months or 3K miles.

But lengthening oil change intervals really doesn't save much crude oil in the grand scheme of things.

FWIW,

TB

eric105

Agreed that gas consumption is the big eater, but I would submit that one should try to work on cutting consumption by catagory. Still, if you take one million cars which get 15,000 miles per year with an average use of 4 quarts and jump from 3 to 5000 mile changes you save 8 quarts per car. 8 million quarts = 2 million gallons= 47,619 barrels. Start doing extended drains for all vehicles in the US and you might get some where. Of course if we added in the fact that home heating oil is burned, or just the grand totals of oil used every year for any purpose, it wont look like much. But the way to tackle consumption is incrementally, which is the way it has been done over the years, catagory by catagory. You 87 LeSabre at 23 miles per is no longer considered very much a fuel saver. Compared to a 1970 car though, it would be.

tboner

That 23 is around town, I can get into the very low 30's on the highway Besides it isn't cost effective for me to switch to a more fuel efficient car. I drive about 26K/year in that car and at 1.30/gallon I would spend just under $1700/year on fuel. To cut that expense in half, I'd need a car that averaged 46 MPG around town. Know where I can get a reliable car with a trunk large enough to hold two rubbermade containers full of misc consumable parts, a set of tools, and has a backseat or other area large enough to carry the other parts I need for my service calls.

Oh, and it cannot exceed $0.15/mile to operate over it's lifespan. (I've had the Buick this long and that is the cost to purchase, fuel, repair, maintain and insure.)

Financially speaking, it doesn't make sense to trade the Buick for an econo box. That $700/year savings (if you could find a 46 MPG car) is more than eaten up in the acquisition costs.

That's better than my SVT Contour, a lighter car with a smaller engine and manual transmission, and I've never seen 30MPG in that car.

I say address the problem incrementally as well, but go after the biggest gains first. And since about 50% of every barrel becomes gasoline and another 20% becomes diesel or home heating oil, the issue of how much fuel is used has the greatest impact on how much crude oil is refined. When about 70% of the crude goes into fuels vs 1.1% of that same crude becomes a lubricant, it is hard to justify large amounts of effort and resources spent on cutting that 1.1% to one percent when you probably can get greater gains working on cutting the use of that 70% used as motor fuels.

Just like my financial analysis of the cost to run the Buick vs something like a Jetta TDI wagon, it doesn't make sense to go after the 1.1%

Gotta go fire up the Buick and head off to work.

TB

armtdm

I have done analsyis on my cars for 10 years now and no doubt, it is a waste of time and money for the 99% of people who drive. I have yet to see it indicate anything abnormal or predict a failure of anything and even if it did, there is absolutely nothing I could do about it (maybe if it found glycol and I did not already know I had a bad headgasket) but really, 1000 ppm of iron or lead, what could I do. Rebuild before it blows, probably not.

So for me, analysis is used just to see if my change interval is okay for the engine and mode of operation. If I changed oil every 3000 miles then totally a waste of time and money.

fleetwoodsimca

I understand that the fraction used for making motor oil is a "waste product" from the cracking tower. What ever is NOT used for making motor oil is "thrown away" by dumping it into old, used up wells. Also, recent evidence indicates that oil is a renewing resource being generated from primordial methane deep in the core of the planet.

rocky5656

Hi there. So what is your oil change interval, based on the analysis you have done? Different for synthetics? What's your favorite oil to use, and why? Thank you.
Yours,

eric105

My point regarding your car was not to convince you to sell and get something more fuel efficent, but to simply point out how vehicles have, incrementally, gotten more fuel efficent. I too drive cars on an economic basis, and as long as it makes sense to drive an older car, I do so. The fact remains that we ARE incrementally squeezing more out of a barrel of oil by higher milage per gallon cars, better insulation in houses, more efficent oil burners, etc. Now it's the turn of motor oil and if we can do it, we should, IMHO.

eric105

I have heard that the oil is self renewing before, but have never seen any articles on the subject. Do you happen to have a source?? I am not trying to give you a hard time here, but all I have heard has been the odd off hand comment here and there. A web site would be appreciated if you've got one. I am no chemist or anything, but where does the Methane come from; the core is pretty hot. Is it a by product of something going on down there??

armtdm

I service five family cars.
Two are on an oil and filter every 7,500 miles regardless of time Amsoil 10W30 (6-12 months in reality) (80,000 and 147,000 miles)
One is on a 12,000 mile interval, filter at 6000 miles Amsoil 10W30 (31,000 miles)
One is once a year filter at 6 months Amsoil 0W30 (72,000 miles)
One is at 5000 miles or one year (last one was a year, doesn't get much use, a twin turbo toy) Amsoil 10W30 (21,000 miles for this 1997)

I may be switching one to Schaeffers 15W40 next time, the Amsoil regular synthetic 10W30 just is not holding up as well as I had believed it would.

Why Amsoil, well, 10 years ago it seemed like a good idea, dealer close by and where I live has a warehouse/distrubution center so no shipping cost. Today, I would also consider RedLine and definitely Schaeffers, Mobil 1 has always been strong.

rocky5656

Thanks for the reply. You still didn't say where or why the mileage intervals came from, I need reassurance that moving from 3k oil changes is "ok".
I've been using a moly additive in my oil changes, called "Molyslip" here in Canada. "Seems" to run quieter and smoother with it, and cooler too in summer. Check out their web site, believe its molyslip.com.
Yours

marcus216

I have started reading this board in an effort to learn more about synthetic motor oil. Basically I have been ignorant on the subject. I have always used conventional oil and have used 3,500 to 4,000 mile change intervals. My driving is about 70% city and 30% highway. I own two vehicles, a 2002 I35 and a 2000 Honda Odyssey. Both cars average between 12,000 and 15,000 miles annually. I would absolutely switch to a full synthetic if I could double my oil change interval up to 7,500 to 8,000 miles. However, when I ask the service folks at the car dealers, they still recommend a 3,750 change interval whether I use synthetic or conventional.

bigorange30

They stand to lose money if you go to a longer drain interval. You need to base it on oil test analysis. I was willing to take the risk based on many recommendations (including my dad's) and Mobil1's gaurantee that you can double the oil drain interval. It has been backed up by my first oil analysis which I posted in #4386. The evidence on this oil change is in the TBN not in the wear metals. I will skip an oil change and do the analysis again when I expect the engine to be broken in and the wear metals to be stabilized.

Anyone who does oil changes will stand to lose money if people change their oil less often. They don't make their money on the oil. They make it on the labor.

armtdm

Also, dealers make their money on getting the car in the shop to locate other services they can sell you. Sometimes the oil change is a loss leader but then they get to push their tranny flush, cooling flush, atf changes etc. etc.

I started at 3000 miles with the synthetic and, not believing the claims, had the oil analyzed at 3000 miles and gradually extended it out. When the wear numbers and/or TBN begin to look bad is where I set the change limits. Losts of highway driving and 12,000 miles works fine on my Buick, however, my Camry is about 7500, at 10,000 the oil seems to break down too much for me and everything seems to increase. So each engine is different and how you drive

The lab will flag the numbers that are high and make recommendations as to whether to change or not. Don't go by numbers generated by an engine under 20,000 miles though, most of the time these numbers will be very high due to the engine breaking in.

mrdetailer

You should be able to go 5 -- 7.5 K on synthetic since that is within the usual recommended intervals, Mobile1 says that you can take it out to the full extent of the recommended interval. I agree however that anything over 5K should have an analysis. My Dodge right now has shortened oil intervals (it's 15 years old) because of oil analysis, while 2 other vehicles now have extended oil changes.

jsleesi

Mr. bigorange30,

Appreciate for printing Blacksone lab's oil analysis. However, I have no idea what you are saying, ie Aluminum 8, iron 3, ????
Can you give me more easy understand about the test result like i.e.

Test Result Good Oil

Aluminum 8 Aluminum ?
Iron 3 Iron ?

So, you can compare what the lab is talking about.
I am sure you know what you are looking at it but I sure don't.

Thank you.

fleetwoodsimca

Very good request to make. I, too, would like a rundown, classroom style, on the analysis process.

bigorange30

The numbers are in ppm (parts per million). I just assumed that most people here had looked at test results before. The metals results are on the high side but that is to be expected on an engine breakin (<20 K miles). The normal levels are quoted from Blackstone as follows:

Aluminum = 2
Chromium = 1
Iron = 6
Copper = 2
Lead = 3
Tin = 0
Molybdenum = 0
Nickel = 0
Manganese = 0
Silver = 0
Titanium = 0
Potassium = 0
Boron = 79
Silicon = 8
Sodium = 4
Calcium = 918
Magnesium = 1196
Phosphorus = 760
Zinc = 825
Barium = 0

As I said before, the TBN being 8 shows that the oil still has life at the mile that it was changed. I will do another analysis after 20 K miles to verify that the wear metals in the oil have come down and that my drain interval is acceptable.

kirbstoy

Hi. Sorry its taken so long to get back to you regading where I buy the Militec. I order it from: Lanigan Performance Products in Brandon Florida. His telephone numbers are: (813) 651-5400 or 1-888-292-0006. His web site is @ www.laniganperformance.com Hope this helps.

armtdm

Your numbers really were not that bad, copper a little high but I have higher, silicon high but I have higher. Note, do not use the Blackstone averages as the benchmark, they are useless. They are based upon 5000 miles, don't know what oil is used and no engine is the same and driven the same. Only your engine over time will give you a trend.

the averages given above are just way too low in my opnion.

billfleming

I must admit that I know ZERO about synthetic oils. But, are there any environmental issues, pro or con for synthetics?

newcar31

better for the environment because of longer drain intervals.

billfleming

n8wvi

I've had a second analysis of my car using Amsoil 5w-30 (ASL). I changed my oil w/ 85,000 miles on the car (a 97 Subaru w/ a 16 valve 2.2L engine) and 5,200 miles on the oil, had it analyzed and posted my results. This analysis (again, I changed the oil) had 6,300 miles on the oil.

Element 1st anyl. 2nd anyl.
Fe 8 6
Pb 3 2
Cu 4 10 ???
Sn 1 1
Al 8 6
Mn 1 0
Si 10 14
B 35 39
Na 3 3
Mg 396 346
Ca 3162 3127
Ba 0 90 *
P 1226 1212
Zn 1529 1517

All others tested were zero for both tests.

Other properties
Glycol Negative Negative
%Water <0.05 <0.05
%Fuel <1.0 <1.0
Visc @ 100 11.0 11.7 **
%Solids Trace Trace
%Ox 10.0 13.3
%Nox 24.3 22.9
TBN 7.0 11.1 **

No make up oil was used as the level had not drop visibly at all.

* I was using (playing w/ Marvel Mystery Oil) and barium is a known Diesel fuel additive. I suspect that's where this came from.
** The oil I was using previous to this was Mobil1 TS 5w-30 (very 'runny') and I made no effort to do a 'flush' before switching to the Amsoil.

Any guesses where the copper came from? No, I don't have an oil cooler.

Based on what I see here, I'm going to go to 7,500 miles next time.

Dave

malachy72

go to Bob's board for responses on analysis

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

larieb

Anybody have any comments on a synthetic blended transmission oil , looking to try some to bring down temperture while towing , seen Pennzoil sells synthetic blend , only $2.75 /qt.
Have newer Ford Van >>> 4R70 Transmission

Any thoughts? Larry

fleetwoodsimca

With it being a "newer" FoMoCo product, I assume that Mercon V is in order for the tranny. It is a ubiquitous substitute for most everything except Chrysler, and it is semisynthetic right from the start. Exxon makes Mercon V under the AAMCO brand at a better price around my area. I have some on the shelf. You might want to check it out.

csandste

(I answered this before but answer disappeared, my apologies if you get 2 posts.)

Group III-- Severely hydrocracked petroleum
Group IV-- Natural gas

lmccall

To Csandste on "What's Syn. Oil Made of..."

I believe that Group IV is PAO (like Mobil 1), and Group V is Other, mostly esters (like Redline.)

Group II and III are both hydrocracked, but Group II has a viscosity index between 0.8 and 1.2, and Group III has a VI greater than 1.2

ps This is all from the Bobistheoilguy FAQ.

csandste

If you want a full blown description of every basestock in the Exxon-Mobil catalog it's at:

http://www.exxonmobil.com/basestocks/pdf/Basestocks_Product_Brochure_US.pdf

Group 1-III and IV-V basestocks are made by two different subgroups within Exxon-Mobil. Group I-III are cracked down from petroleum, Group IV-V are engineered from lighter materials. Break down/ build up.

njdevilsrn

Hello all. Just yesterday I decided to follow a friend's (former mechanic) advice and put synthetic oil in my 2000 Explorer. Following his advice, I changed the oil with Mobil 1, 5W30. I recently decided to start doing my own oil changes, as all the local places are up to $24.95. I spent $22 for a case of Mobil 1 (1 quart left over) and $4 for a FRAM filter (could not find MotorCraft at the store). I plan on going 5000 between changes, I previously was doing 3000 on dino.

I've already noticed that the truck seems to run cooler, with the gauge running slightly below where it used to. Any other things to look forward to or be aware of? Also, the bottle of oil said that fuel mileage will increase, any thoughts?

ruking1

#4436

Your mileage should go up app 2-5% if for example you go from 10w-30 to 5w-30 Mobil One, all things being equal of course. If you go from 5W-30 to 0W-30 you should see app 2-5% again. So for example I ran 10W-30W Mobil One and got 24 mph. Just on oil change alone it increased to 25.2. I also switched from a conventional ATF to the Mobil One ATF and not only was the shifting far smoother, but I got another app 1 mph more (actual .6 mpg) Mileage will of course vary.

bretfraz

One tip I gotta throw in is please do not get hooked on using Fram filters. They have been shown to be the *worst* on the market. Do an internet search for "oil filter study" or something like that and you will find comparisons that bear out my comment.

If you're going to use a top quality oil then use a top quality filter. Mobil One filters are considered by many to be the best available. I like Purolater Pure One's myself; a few $$ cheaper too. Even the SuperTech filters at WalMart are surprisingly good - made by Champion Labs with excellent filtration specs. Check out all these.

Fuel mileage is a mysterious thing. A 2% change in mileage may not even be measurable tank to tank (on a vehicle that gets 15mpg, 2% = 0.3mpg). Gasoline producers are constantly tweaking their formulas and this can play havoc with mileage. With winter coming producers are changing their formulations now which in most states lowers fuel mileage a lot more than 2%.

5000 miles should be OK to go to on M1 but if you are really curious about how well the oil holds up the best way to know is to have the oil analysed. There are several outfits that do analysis for modest fees.

Hope all this helps.

junkman2

I've read a lot of posts on this board and am generally convinced that dino oil changes @ 3000 miles would work about as well as synthetic oil at longer change intervals as far as preventing metal wear goes. What I'm still not sure of though, is whether or not synthetic oil, and its higher prices, is justified anyway because it would be less likely to lead to sludge-like engine deposits. The reason I care is that I have one of the infamous sludge prone Camrys (2001 with 21,000 miles, dino oil changed at 3,000 mile intervals) and am trying to figure out if the synthetic oil is worth the extra price. Even with synthetic oil, I'd be hesitant to go more than 5,000 miles between changes. Any concrete evidence out there regarding advantages of synthetics with respect to leaving deposits?

I am also thrown off by the fact that my dealership service dept. has discouraged me from switching to synthetic several times. This shocks me since they would presumably make more money on that service. I wonder why they have talked me out of synthetic.

Opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

armtdm

I have an older V6 camry bu the same basic design as yours, a 92. Run synthetic since new and change at 7500 miles.

As to the dealer not wanting you to switch, well, probably makes more money on dino, buys it bulk wheras synthetic is not used that much. Further, if you go longer between changes he will not see you as often to sell other services.

fleetwoodsimca

Surely there is no reason what so ever to prefer petroleum over synthetic for any current Toyota engine. Potential earnings for the shop is probably the leading motivation to suspect, I would agree. There is a Toyota 1.6L 4 cylinder in my 1997 Prizm, and it is a very impressive engine with just under 62K at present. I do not fear using either synthetic or petroleum base in it.

sensei1

considering weight being the same, is it an issue when switching brands from one synth to another?

Thanks...

rocky5656

I have a question for anyone who may be able to answer it. I have a 1999 Honda CRV with auto trans. and clutch type rear differential, manual says Dexron III can be used, but only for "emergencys", use of anything other than genuine Honda lube can result in serious damage. What's special in the Honda stuff? I know they sell a special oil for the diff, but is it worth over $10 a litre?

I really would like to use a synthetic lube in both cases.
Any insight ? Thanks a bunch.

adc100

Whatever your dealer's reason for not recommending syn, I can tell you its not based on scientific knowledge. I would tend to agree with armtdm.

rocky: I have heard that there is a special need a better lubricating oil for Honda. Also I have heard honda rips off its customers.

junkman2

for the opinions. I'm inclined to switch over to synthetic at my next change. I'd never thought about the possibility that the dealer would make more on a dino oil transaction due to buying in bulk.

bigorange30

I agree with bretfraz. I read the same filter study and decided to switch to the mobil1 synthetic oil filter at the same time that I switched to mobil1 synthetic oil. It is an $11 filter but I am happy with it so far. On the issue of increased mpg, I have seen an increase of 10% from changing from dino 10w30 to mobil1 synthetic 10w30. My QX4 went from 14 to 15.5 city mpg.

cchuckk

Hello everyone! I read most of the post's and did not learn anything important about motor oils. I don't follow the leaders or buy anything off the shelf. I did my research trying to find good products years ago and found the right set of lubricants that works for all vehicles and that's what I use in all of mine. Feel free to pick my brain! I can be reached at petromolly@aol.com

malachy72

knows where I might buy Amsoil?

bigorange30

We're not impressed. If you have information that you think we would like to know, lay it out there. Please don't try to sell us your snakeoil though.

cchuckk

Have you heard of "System 48-Plus" it's a 25 year old snake oil that makes my vehicles run better, lowing temp, fast starts in cold weather.... You know the drill. This one was developed by an automotive engineer. Not teflon but strong chemicals. I just want to share some information on what works for me.

bretfraz

Could it be....... SPAM?????

Ohhhhh yeah. I'm smelling a "delete" on the grill too.