Synthetic motor oil

longo2

We had an old Dutch Guy in our town that worked out of his garage behind the house. He did it all including what was called "motor jobs" in those days, he also did the regular oil changes for all his customers. When you when into his shop he sometimes had a car in there with the heads off and would show you the results of using different brands of oils.

His junk box was full of scored and burnt pistons that had a thick scaly build up of carbon and crap that was welded on like iron.

He always had a least a dozen cases of Havoline up on the shelf and never used anything else for all his oil changes.
Once I saw he had the heads off a customers car that blew a gasket and the pistons had a layer of thin soft grey powder on top you could scape off with your fingernail. The cylinder walls still showed the cross hatch marks from new and were smooth as glass.

He had always done the oil changes on the car and was quite proud of showing anyone interested the difference a good oil can make.

In 2001, Texaco merged with Chevron but the Havoline brand name has been retained for all Texaco motor oils and other lubricating products along with anti-freezes. (Wiki quote)

When I take out my magnetic drain plugs for a Penzoil Platinum oil change, I see that same thin coating of grey powder that only leaves a little smudge on a Kleenex.

Coincidence, or the sign of a great oil?

Mr_Shiftright

I'm about to commit blasphemy.

My opinion is that with *modern* engines, you can take any oil can off the shelf in any store, and as long as it meets your manufacturer's specs, you can dump it in and your engine will probably run to its natural lifespan (about 175K these days).

In the "old days", when the earth was cooling and I was in junior high school, automobile engines were pretty crude pieces of work--they ran colder and the metallurgy was about as good as a Vermont wood stove.

Might one run a healthier engine for 175K with the best oils? Sure--especially under extreme conditions. But is it a matter of life and death? I don't think so.

jeffyscott

I'm under the impression that conventional oil will not lubricate as well for ~6 months once in the engine and having been driven. IOW, the moisture etc that forms due to my 95% city driving of short hops here and there do not let conventional oils work as designed. Yet synthetics are immune to many of the issues of conventional oil over such a long period of time.

But then, additionally, there should be no problems going 12 months and 6000 miles with the synthetic, rather than 6 mo./3K mi. Perhaps you are doing 6 months, due to being under warranty, which also makes sense.

shagnat

I'm not doing the 6months 3K OCI for any reason other than after 6 months of in town driving of very short hops, I'd be afraid to let any oil go further than that. Just my paranoia, not anything to do with warranty.
Hyundai insists on 4-5K OCI, but, I'm not very concerned about their warranty at this point.

the_big_al

I experienced a similar thing with the Max-Life in my old Sonoma with the 4.3 V6. It had almost 100K on it and was losing almost 1 qt of oil every 3K. I also at that time subscribed to the 3K oil change interval mantra.

After switching over, I noticed that it stopped losing oil every oil change. I started putting it in our Ford Taurus which also would lose about 1/2 qt or so and it too would read full at my 3K oil change interval...

isellhondas

I think youi are absoultly correct. I don't think that as long as the oils meet or exceed the specs, it wouldn't make one twit of difference in the life of the car.

But, hey, if using synthetics and having some lab analyze your oil makes someone feel better, they should do it!

0patience

Just think of the natural resources you are wasting and the additional pollution you are creating.
Do you really believe that drivvle?
So you are to believe that changing your oil at regular intervals is wasting natural resources and creating additional pollution? How?

Some better oils are recommended/warranted for 25,000 to 35,000 mile up to 1 year intervals.
Oh please, do tell. Which oils are recommended by the MANUFACTURER for 25-35,000 miles??

Valvoline and Castrol show 4 to 8 times less wear that Mobil 1 5w30 in much more accurate testing that a $20 used oil analysis.
According to who? For every oil analysis that says one thing, there are a ton that will say another.

Understand that silicates and sulphur (dirt and moisture) play as much part of contaminating the oils as does wear.

longo2

Hey TM,

since you have a driveway full of assorted vehicles from 4x4's to a Harley, what oil have you settled on for all your projects?

0patience

That depends.
The Harley gets Harley Davidson synthetic 20W50 oil
The Hyundai Santa Fe gets Castrol Synthetic 5W-20

The 4x4s all get either DELO 400 15w40 or NAPA Fleet 15w40.
the 70 has 290K miles and the 93 has 225K miles on it, so I see no reason to switch from the fleet oil.

The SantaFe and the Harley are both under warranty and I will use the oil I feel best protects them. Besides, the Harley is under service contract, so it's at the cost of the dealer.

So you can see, the oil I use depends greatly on the vehicle it is going in.
And I use the MANUFACTURER's recommended intervals for changing the oils.

xwesx

Might one run a healthier engine for 175K with the best oils? Sure--especially under extreme conditions. But is it a matter of life and death? I don't think so.

Yep; I completely agree with that assertion.

Mr_Shiftright

If I get another motorcycle I'm certainly going to run synthetic in it, however. These days, a bike with a bad motor is pretty much a throw-away unless it's a valuable classic---and even then it's "iffy". And with a few exceptions, motorcycle engines are much shorter-lived than car engines.

xwesx

Interesting that you should mention that. I have toyed with the idea of getting a used one the last couple of years, but do not know much about them mechanically. What would be considered an average high-mileage engine for say a sport bike or a cruiser? I suspect there are lifespan differences, perhaps for no other reason than the way they tend to be driven....

Mr_Shiftright

Depends on the bike, really. Given the problem of weather, many bikes don't rack up high mileages unless the rider is really physically tough. For me, any American-made, Italian or British bike with over 25K might start to worry me, but for German or Japanese bikes, I'm still comfortable at 60K---but that's pushing it for me. But I've been off bikes for ten years or so, and maybe things have changed somewhat. But some quick research would reveal which bikes have the worst reputation.

xwesx

Okay, thanks. The most miles I have seen on any that briefly interested me was about 15,000. The owner said he had just put on his fourth (I think) set of tires, which I thought was really surprising, but my neighbor, who has about 5,000 miles on his bike, confirmed that motorcycle tires wear very fast; he just put his second set of tires on last summer.

I have a lot of learning to do should I choose to delve into that domain. :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

It would be nice to find an owner who used synthetic oil throughout the bike's life.

0patience

As was stated, miles and tire wear depend a lot on the type of bike and the rider.
I've seen some of the japanese bikes eat up tires in 3-5k miles, while some cruisers may go 15k miles without eating them up.
My brother-in-law's Harley has 12k miles on it, still on the first set of tires.

Personally, I find it far more tempting to cook the tires on a quick japanese bike than my Harley. :shades:

And I do agree that synthetic is the way to go on a motorcycle, especially the aircooled bikes.

xwesx

Thanks for the feedback!

As a father with two young children (2 and 5) and a wife who is very safety-conscious, I have become fairly adept at controlling my tire-cooking impulses. So, if the day ever comes that I can keep both a motorcycle and wife (the current one!), I will have to be tame while riding the bike.

My neighbor uses a synthetic in his; I will have to see what brand he uses.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah I wouldn't get too frisky on a Harley if I were you :surprise:

I used to drive my Saab Turbo like an escaped lunatic. I'd wear out premium tires in 8000 miles, tops. That Saab engine LOVED synthetic.

My Subaru could care less.

xwesx

Somehow, I think it would be entertaining to go for a ride with you someday. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

Wait until my last speeding points expire. Depends what I'm driving. I morph with whatever I'm in. Put me in a Camry, I am a librarian. Put me in a Ferrari, and my evil twin Boris Shiftright, takes over.

the_big_al

That's better than me... or than i used to be. Now I consider my self more "sedate", although when I was younger I would push anything I drove to it's limits, from my Grandma's various Buicks and Town Cars, to my mom's Astro Van (very VERY scary at 100+ MPH). My dad's Datsun topped out at about 70 on a flat road and my sister's Samuri was scary above 45, although it would do 75 on a flat road. My 84 Laser topped out at 115 and still felt somewhat sorted, but then again I wouldn't really know because I never drove anything that was really meant to go faster than the fastest posted speed. I got my Grandad's Sierra up to about 120 mph. The older Sierra that I drove for while, the speedo stopped at 85, but I had it buried more times than I can remember (it also had a 350 in it with no mufflers and was a blast to drive around)...

Now I'm a bit more sane, although I do occasionally get my own cars into their upper limits when the "need" arises... I haven't found the speed limiter on my Impala yet, it's gone past 115 although it was wheezing pretty good at that point. My S-10 govern's itself at 96 but has room to go more if it were left unchecked, but it like the Astro Van it gets pretty floaty as it nears 100...

(this sounds like it belongs in the "inconsiderate's forum...")

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, let's stay on topic!

roadburner

For me, any American-made, Italian or British bike with over 25K might start to worry me

I'd take exception to that with regard to the 1995-on Triumph triples. Some of those motors can go over 90k with just scheduled maintenance.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah and some people live to be 100. But what's *likely* to happen, is the question.

Anyway, I was thinking of the older Brit bikes. The new ones aren't even on my radar anymore, so I don't really know anything about them.

The argument might be moot, since it's extremely rare to see *any* bike driven to 90K---couldn't be more than one in thousands.

Are these new Brit bikes air-cooled or WC? I always was of the opinion that an air-cooled engine really needs synthetic oil.

0patience

To give you an idea of mileage on bikes, My brother-in-laws Harley is a 2006, he has 15,000 miles on it and it is ridden regularly in the spring, summer and fall months.

My buddy's 2001 Harley Ultra Glide is ridden all the time, plus he makes several trips per year on it and it has 55,000 miles.

And then there is my 2008 with 2,000 miles on it. :surprise:
One of my older, more ridden bikes was a 1985 Yamaha V-max that had 65,000 miles on it when I sold it. But I was much younger and far more foolish in those days.
The V-max never saw synthetic, as in those days, it wasn't cheap to use.

There are a mix of air cooled and water cooled Euro bikes.
I know that most of Norton bikes are air cooled, some Triumphs are air (Bonneville series), some are water cooled, Some Moto Guzzi are water cooled, with a few of their classic series being air cooled.

Mr_Shiftright

55K on a Harley is very impressive. I would have never thought it possible.

0patience

The Ultra Glide might as well be a small car, for all the fancy comfort stuff it has.
Full fairing, with heat that blows on the legs when needed, stereo, CB, seems like 20 Cubic Feet of storage, intercom between passenger and driver, the list is endless. These guys ride all the time on those cruisers.

And they are usually pretty meticulous about maintenance on them.
There are a lot of Harley riders who think nothing about rebuilding their engines or putting performance cylinder kits on their bikes. To be honest, a Harley is almost as big a money pit as a boat, if you let it.

roadburner

You'd be surprised at how many of the early T3 bikes have racked up impressive mileages. When John Bloor revived the marque in the early 90's he realized that he'd have only one shot and it had to be dead on. As a result the 885 water cooled triples are just about unbreakable.

Mr_Shiftright

I think that as with British cars, it was never the engines that were the problem. It was shoddy assembly and penny-pinching on parts quality.

roadburner

Well, my 16k mile 1996 Speed Triple has been very reliable. I did need to fit a battery and a starter relay, but I think the low voltage of the old battery killed the relay. Other than that the bike looks and rides like new. The only bike that I would even consider swapping it for is the Street Triple R.

isellhondas

So, if it's a British bike, a battery has to be "fitted" rather than "installed"?

roadburner

Yep. :P

Mr_Shiftright

And when you change your oil, make sure the gaskets are not "perished".

isellhondas

I once had a guy working for me who was from England. He spoke English to be sure but I still could barely understand him.

One day a car hood fell on his head and busted him in the noggin pretty good.

" The bloody bonnet fell on me bloody aid"

Huh?

shagnat

Now that right there is funny ^^^^^^^^^

roadburner

The problem is that I subscribe to a couple of British car magazines -one for over 20 years- so I sometimes use Brit terms or phrases without realizing it.

Mr_Shiftright

Speaking of which--while I did discontinue use of synthetic oil in the Subaru due to oil burning, I did notice that there was less lifter noise when cold, while the engine was "ticking over". when I used synthetic.

I recall the most dramatic improvements in cold weather starting in my air-cooled Porsches and in my Mercedes diesel----both types generally requiring a pretty good spin of the starter to get rolling in the mornings.

0patience

I've found that some older engines will develop leaks and some noises from synthetic oils, because the synthetic oil likes to flow better through leaks.

Mr_Shiftright

That certainly makes sense if the engine was already leaking some, but I can't say as I've ever found any really convincing evidence that a tight engine on an old car would suddenly spring leaks because synthetic was added. My Subaru is tight as a drum, leak-wise, and remained so throughout its diet of synthetic.

Sandman6472

The oil minder on my '06 Civic is now at 30% so I'm back at my dilemma about which oil to use. The car only has 25.6k in 3.5 years of ownership which means I only put like 7k or so per year. I've already had 3 changes, all with synthetic blend. Think I'd like to try synthetic this next time and do it once per year as opposed to the current schedule. Price wise I can get a synthetic done for about $50.00 as oppossed to dino fills for about $21.00 or so.

I know I 've asked this question here before but does synthetic really seem necessary for my Civic? I do get free rotations at the dino shop which is good for the tires. I've also just renewed my 3 year 4-wheel alignment policy at the same place. They also know how to reset olm in the car. Luckily since I bought the tires at this shop, free rotations come anyways. Really leaning towards their synthetic brand...Kendall I think.

Decisions...decisions! Shipo, Ruking & Mr_Shiftright...what say the experts?

The Confused Sandman :confuse: :sick: :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

I'd almost be tempted to say that 7K a year is "severe service" in that undoubtedly you have a fair share of "dry engine" starts--meaning that the car probably sits for a week sometimes with no use and no starts. So yeah, given that the worst engine wear occurs on a cold engine and a dry engine, I don't think synthetic would be a bad idea in this case.

I'm no "expert" on oils but I'm trying to apply common sense here. :P

Sandman6472

The car only sits on Sundays, as my wife or kid usually drive since I'm in chronic pain mode 24/7 due to a truck accident at work. Round trip to work is around 19.5 miles, 5 days per week. Maybe that falls into he severe category...maybe not. That's what got me thinking about this a few years back. Just don't remember the advice I was given here. But part of me thinks synthetic is the way to go. There must be a way to reset the oil life minder, as it won't know the difference as to which oil is in the engine.

The extra $'s are not an issue here as I'd like to keep this car for another 6 to 7 years at least. And with retirement or disability happening at the end of 2010 or earlier, I will be driving even less then due to my increasing spinal issues. Luckily I'm happiest spending time in the house as the increasing pain makes walking very difficult. That's why Edmunds.com is a g-dsend to me.

Luckily I've still got some time to decide on what to do since I'm at 30% now. Any intelligent responses would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

The Sandman :confuse: :sick: :shades:

vipasynthetics

Synthetics dont cause or create leaks...the seals have aged, or shrunk and are brittle, etc. due to age...the Petroleum oils created a false seal due to varnish and sludge buildup.
Synthetics with their natural detergent characteristic, started to clean out the gunk, sludge, varnish, thus exposing, "the real seal"...Thus the leak....
Todays synthetics are much more seal friendly than ever before, and are actually better for seals than petroleum based oils.

jeffyscott

I guess it depends on the meaning of "cause". The synthetic is not the ultimate cause of the leak in that scenario, but does make the symptoms of the underlying problem worse. On an old car I'd just as soon leave the gunk alone, if the alternative is expensive seal replacement.

isellhondas

I'm no expert but I see a lot of 300,000 mile plue Hondas that are running just fine on dino oil. I just don't see the overwhelming benefits of synthetics.

shipo

The benefits are two-fold:

1) Extended oil change intervals that still allow the engine to achieve lofty mileage totals.

2) Superior cold start characteristics.

The above said, if I was operating a vehicle that was rarely driven and/or inclined to change the oil every three thousand miles (I typically go ten to twelve thousand miles), and I lived in a moderate climate, I would probably use conventional oil.

Best regards,
Shipo

0patience

The synthetic is not the ultimate cause of the leak in that scenario, but does make the symptoms of the underlying problem worse.
Exactly,

I have to learn to remember that a lot of folks take the written words literal.

I am pretty sure I stated that "synthetic oil likes to flow better through leaks". Meaning that there would already have to be a leak.

Yes, when I said that they create leaks, I meant that they have a tendancy to make small or minor leaks worse. Not always and it isn't a rule. :sick:

So many armchair quarterbacks. :lemon:

colloquor

Shipo's 2nd point is worth it's weight in gold here in the midwest. Two weeks ago, we had bouts of -13F ambient temps each morning, and having used dino and synthetic, there's no comparison. The dino won't even pour from a bottle at that temp, whereas the synthetic will. Thus, what would you rather have in your engine's crankcase?

The cold start characteristics of synthetic alone are enough to justify using a synthetic oil for me.

jpf

Also, it may be wise to invest in an engine block heater.

isellhondas

OK, that makes sense.

I'm glad we don't get those extremes here.