Of course longer intervals would be a benefit, and would conserve oil.
But who's going to stand behind my warranty? Shall I give you an address to which you can mail a blank check to cover me should I experience engine troubles?
Gee that sounds frightful, but hey, how many folks have warranties beyond 36k anyway?? Do you ever wonder why they give you a 36k warranty? (or whatever) Because statistically, the engines DO not break down during this period ESPECIALLY due to oil. Hey, if it makes you jolly to do 12 oil changes when 3 will do. I would say, have at it. I asked my dealer if they would honor engine warranty with 15k oil change intervals with Mobil One oil, he winked at me and said NO problem.
On another vehicle,(American car) The oil change is figured by computer sim and it is good to go to 15k miles (synthetic oil (to a spec) is the specified oil, by the way).
So you can talk about conservation, I really don't, I JUST DO.
But, I am glad you are pressing the case for 3k oil change intervals, my kids are saying they want to apply to grad (MBA) and OD school. Geezzzzz does this ever end!!!???
Gonna take a LOT of oil changes at today's tuition rates! I figure you're gonna have to dump around 20,000 quarts and 4,000 filters.......at 5 changes per day you've got a long row to hoe.
But you might get some braces out of the deal for the kiddies. I'd support that!
LOL! Not to put CA in a bad light, but work with me here!!! There are app 33 M vehicles registered in CA
IF,
everyone did say the average 12-15k per yr mileage and 3k oil changes as opposed to 15k oil changes what would the raw numbers look like!!?? (Savings or waste no matter)
I know they are RAW!! but perhaps they get across the collective idea!!
If 98-99% do conventional oil changes, where would you bet your money on?
Greater or lesser consumption.
LOL, I am going for the braces and the whole shooting match!! (Already did the vette and the undergrad gig)
Let us repeat the mantra, 3k oil changes or bust!!!
I posted this link about 40 posts ago, noting that it applies to aircraft engines. Since no one has commented on it, I guess that either no one read it or no one noticed what I believe it tells us.
Basically, to steal short quote to get us started
"There are many misconceptions about starting cold engines. There is the idea that the engine is difficult to turn over because the "oil is stiff". There is the idea that warm oil is equal to a warm engine."
and now another: "Because at these temperatures the engine is difficult to "turn over", people attempt to "prop" them and often think that they turn hard because the "oil is stiff". It isn't the oil. The fit of the bearings, gears and pistons is the problem. It's possible to rotate a main bearing insert by hand propping in these temperatures. Should the engine start at temperatures close to this it could be operating with no bearing lubrication due to lack of clearance."
Essentially, what this article says is that, yes; cold starts are responsible for most of the wear in engines. However, changing oils won't do a lot to prevent that cold-start wear. The reason is that not only is the oil cold and thick, but the engine is cold and the tolerances are tight. It's the cold tight ENGINE that causes the wear - not so much lack of oil.
In his tests, he even heated the oil, and found that it didn't help that much.
So, although this applies to Aircraft engines, where the wear is more extreme because of design and operating conditions, the same is true, I think of automobile engines. I also note that he is talking about very cold conditions which would emphasize the problems encountered.
Synthetic oil may reduce cold start wear, but not very signficantly- not enough to reduce engine wear more than dino of the proper grade for the season or conditions. Another myth blown, IMHO.
Note: I still use synthetic in all my cars and my lawnmower. I'd feed it to the cat if I thought it would help him run better. I like the stuff, but only for the high temp protection for bumper to bumper traffic in Dallas conditions (and the like) and for the convenience of long change-intervals.
Feel free to reinterpet the article, but please explain your reasons.
I think the danger of a prop start is the leverage you get with that prop...it's the equivalent of one big mean starter motor for a car!
I used to prop start in Alaska....very scary...I hated it. Landing on glaciers, it was not wise to shut down the engine for too long at those drastic ambient temperatures.
Some of the heavy trucks would stay idling December through March, all day and all night. Amazing.
good job getting at least documentable evidence in presenting an argument. Something lacking in many of these arguments.
I interpreted the article a little differently in some respects. For one thing the engine is air cooled, aluminum head, aluminum crankcase, steel liners, and aluminum pistons. These clearances he was referring to for this engine are entirely different than a normal vehicle. Aluminum having a different coefficient of expansion. the issue was the clearance of these parts at -30 degreed F.
But even given all of that, he never said that getting oil to the moving parts would not help eliminate cold start wear. What he said was that the oil could not get through the small ports because of its inherent viscosity and the cold block temperatures. He indicated that oil might not get to the valve guides for 15 minutes.
The very fact that syn 5W30 is pumpable at -58 F. would allow it to reach any part no matter how cold the block was. He was only dealing with a low of temperature of -30 F. He also was dealing with 15W50 oils and other oils ranging to 100W!!!There would have been no problem with syn.reaching these parts at -30 F. Why he chose to deal with oils which could not function at this temperature is beyond me.
BTW he did not discuss syn oil at all.
So the issues are that heating the oil didn't help much because it was too thick and also because the cold clearances of the aircooled aircraft are to small. This is a different kettle of fish and doesn't INMO support your conclusion; nor did he say that. But again-good job digging out the SAE Technical Papers.
BTW you may want to dig out Technical Paper 951026. This paper deals with Mobil developmant of their 2 nd generation of syn oils. (Current batch is generation 3)
On the subject of this SAE 951026 paper: There was discussion on this board on syn oil consumption. An 800,000 mile test of 4 vehicles using syn. revealed an oil consumption of less than 25 quarts of syn for this milage. This equates to about 1 oz. per 1000 miles in mixed driving conditions. This is consistant with what I have experienced.
In reply to two of the postings- I owned a 62 etype jag running 12 quarts of dino oil 20/50w- let me assure you that the car was well broken in with 62k and that any attempt to start her under 35 degrees was a lesson in frustration- THICK OIL COLD OIL DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!! but when I warmed the garage the night before-- voila!! Regarding oil change intervals- I currently own two german cars and they both specify syn oil and an interval of 15k- I had always stuck to the 3k change mantra=but am becoming a convert to 15k based on some pretty smart engineers packing the syn in the cars and giving it their blessing. James from ct.
Don't dispute the BMW system of using the engine computer to determine change intervals, but do remember that the oil capacity of most BMWs is close to double that of most Japanese and Domestic models. The larger volume of oil contributes substantially to the longer life of the oil.
1. The SAE Technical paper referenced above. It was published by Mobil but was accepted by the SAE and published as such. SAE reviews the data. This article gave information on the process Mobil used to test their oils against conventional oils, and also competetor's syn oils. They did not name names but indicated they were premium grade oils. They did this to develop their own blend which surpassed the competition's oils. The test was very open, scientific, and informative. They used all accepted API automative tests (called "sequence tests") They ran these test at 2 to 4 times the required test length. BTW many of their own blends from the article did not come up to expectations as the development proceeded. I can't say Mobil is the best, but I can not prove anything is better. Neither can Mercedes, Porshe, Chrysler (Viper), and GM (Corvette).
2. I have used it for 8 years with outstanding results-for me. As they say "works for me"
Armdtm possibly can enlighten you on Amsoil. I was an Amsoil dealer for a couple of years to get the stuff at a better price for myself and friends. I did at that time try to get information from them on the same tests. They would give me results on "ASTM 4 Ball Tests" which is not the same. Bottom line I can't compare the two. Call Mobil at 1-800-ask-mobil and have them send you their propaganda package.
Mobil uses their own PAO(polyalphaolefin) stock as the syn base. I know Valvoline, Amsoil also use PAO's. Other "syn" oils may not really be true PAO's they may start with a base of pertoleum stocks.
Previous poste here could help you.
I'm not hung up on Mobil. If someone can prove that another product is bettter, I'll jump ship.
In the aircraft example their defintiion of cold may be much different, they exist in temperatures well below the pour points of dinos and probably synthetics. Dino becomes jelly at -20 or so synthetics at -50 to -60. So, in most states in this country it rarely reaches minus 30. But even synthetic is thicker at cold start. I usually take my oil sample when the oil is hot, just after shut down. Due to a larger filter and the first time I used the Fumato valve (don't pull the drain plug just move the lever) to drain the oil I overfilled. (seems the valve design holds back 2-3 ounces of oil. Anyway, I syphoned some out the next day when cold, temp in garage around 40 degrees F and wow, it was pretty thick and hard to get into the container compared to hot oil. So I can see where a cold engine does not have any lubrication (except for the leftover oil film) for several seconds or until the oil can flow. Also, the oil has to be bypassing the filter as I doubt it could pass through the filter at the thicker flows.
Yea,l I am a dealer but only to get the discount. I don't resell. I agree, their tests are all the laboratory kind, not out on the streets. Same as Redline. I think Mobil 1 is a grat oil as well as Amsoil and RedLine. I use Amsoil because I have great access via a jobber that actually stocks inventoiry and after 9 years I have had great results. If not for the cost of Redline $6.20-$7 per quart I would probably switch. Amsoil oil are all SJ rated but only their 7500XL series carries the API donut. THe others they say would cost to much to get the donut. I have used the non donut oil 10W30 full synthetic for all of my time with them and the lack of the donut does not bother me but I understand how it can bother many people, especially with new cars. Not sure if RedLine has teh API donut either?
Thanks for your posts. I have been using Mobil 1 for the last few oil changes. I think they are good just like Amsoil but I will continue to use it since it is widely available. I use Pure One filters as well and change every 5000k miles. it might sounds like an overkill but it gives me peace of mind.
Some would say 25 bucks a year to help protect a $20,000 vehicle with a better engine lubricant with extra peace of mind and insurance is overkill. I'd say it's smart.
I have a 98 ford explorer V8 AWD with 40k. I have been using full synthetic since 1700mi. Have used mostly mobil syn, but ocationaly buy the syn. on sale. I normally change every 4k-5k (dont laugh, I have extended 100k mile warranty to keep valid). my question is what are the best oil filters for full synthetics? Is there any documentation or comparison charts available? I have been using the Castrol Max Pro and the Mobil filter they say is "made for thier synthetic".
No truly independent lab tests out there however, there are multiple sites that have run semi independent studies. From what I remember the better oil filters are Mobil 1, Pure One, Motorcraft and the high end AC Delcos. I like the Amsoil/Hastings which like Mobil 1 is designed more for synthetics. Almost everyone agrees that Frams are the worst. Most other brand names like quaker state,pennzoil, deustch, bosch etc. are also not highly rated. I recently held a Mobil 1 and Delco filter and there is no doubt the Mobil 1 weighs more, does that mean better, don't know. The single pass filter efficiency test that most companies use as a comparison is useless. You need to see the results of the multiple pass test to see how good the filter really is and these are not published by most manufacturers. There are only a handful of filter manufacturers but they make multiple brand names with different specs for each. Also depends on how often you change the oil and filter. For longer drains a better filter should be the aim. Most differences occur in the quality of the drain back valve (plastic versus rubber versus??) the number of paper pleats and what the pleats are made of.
A couple of weeks ago, someone posted that they had heard that Mobil 1 is no longer making their oil from the PAO base stocks, but rather using the "Castrol" method of using dino stocks. Everyone jumped up and said they were going to check it out. Has anyone heard anything? It would break my Mobil heart if this is, in fact, true. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks for the info armtdm. There were only three brands that you mentioned in the better filter category that I am able to find. Those being mobil, motorcraft and delco (I have never seen a delco higher end product). I might try the motorcraft since it is much cheaper than the mobil. BTW, never heard of pure one. Where might I find this brand and is there another company that makes the same product under a different name?...I live on the CA coast so maybe not available??
They have two levels of filters the first is the ole standby Purolator Premium Plus and their relatively new one is the Pure One label. Sold in Advanced Auto stores here but not sure where it would be available in your area. Costs about $4.99-$5.99
I believe the Delco is the Delco Silver or Gold, not sure.
I have been meaning to do that. The couple of times I called the line was busy. I promise I will check tomorrow. BTW although this would bug me also, if it's true, any "synthetic" will still be an improvement in conventional oil. I'm sure we can live with it untill the best product is found. The reason I doubt that the formula has changed is that research programs to develop and certify new products are expensive. Mobil has spent a ton of money on research developing the "gold standard" IMHO. Now that they have merged with EXXON they have more resources. They are not going to hastily scrap this current formula. I have read considerable literature about their research. A reformulation involving all the additives with their different solubilities in the base stock and also optimizing is not a cheap shot. Testing the different combinations and adjusting/retesting would take a chunk of time (year(s)).
BTW Subject: Gas Milage with syn oil. A Dec. 2000 "Automotive Engineering" article on testing various large trucks with syn in engine and drive train gave values of 3.1 to 4.2% increase in fuel economy depending of the type and size of truck. With a leap of faith you could realize 25 bucks a year in savings. (if you need to justfy the extra cost of syn)
these words were chosen by the the marketing types to sound the best to the consumer. A PAO base stock is combined with esters to enhance the solubility of the additive package. Hence we have the PAO, the ester, and the addative package. I guess thats 3(tri)? And tri must be better than bi, right??
Pep Boys carry the Purolator Pure One for $5.99 as well as the AC Delco Ultraguard Gold for $8.99. Mobil 1 filters can be found at Autozone for $9.99. Bosch are also at Autozone for $4.99 I have used them in the past and they seems pretty good. I see Fram top of the line for $9.99 but don't know how good they are.
Thanks for checking with them. If this were going to be true, then I would have had to jump ship and go with Valvoline. I'm glad Mobil is not giving in. We still have a great over-the-counter synthetic. By the way, does anyone have suggestions on what grade synthetic oil to run in a Briggs and Stratton, Tecumseh, or Honda small engine? Briggs' web site says that 5W30 or 10W30 can be used anywhere that dino 30 is used. I'm just wondering what is best. Those small air-cooled engines get much much hotter than a car engine.
I have been using the cheapest full synthetic (usually Havoline @ $2.99/quart) that I can find for my mower and leaf chipper for several years now. Mower going on 12 years old. I use the 10W30 and sometimes the 5W30 on the chipper which I use in winter for leaves. I used to change the mower oil every month with dino but since switching several years ago I change it in the Spring and late summer and that's it. Oil looks great at the change too and the engines keep on truckin, the rest of the parts keep going bad but the engines are great.
Let us repeat the mantra 3k oil changes, or bust!!!
Now that we have recited the "right" mantra, exactly what is a "extended" drain interval, say from the article's opinion and more specifically YOUR opinion.
1. One year between changes(every manual I have ever seen says 6 months max) unless you have a service light. 2. If you drive under the normal schedule guidelines (say 7,500) anything over that, if severe (say 3,000) then anything over that
Fairly simply to me.
For many years now I have gone against the advise of the owner's manual on oil changes. Hoping for a fight but the damn oil keeps on going and I cannot get it to make an engine fail. Remember the oil has to be the cause of the failure, not the failure to change the oil per "recommended" schedules.
Seems pretty normal and "no brainer to me" the 7500 mile GIG seems to be what manufacturer's are recommending using conventional oils. The range being 3k, 5k, 6k, 7.5k.
So using SYNTHETIC oils whose longer lasting qualities can vary between 2-5 times that of conventional oils the range seems to be 3k, 6k, 7.5k, 10.5k, 13.5k, 15k, 18k, 21k,25k,30k,...37.5k
When I see these numbers in print it would appear that I am at a way conservative side of the scale using the synthetic oil. (15k intervals)
My 95 Contour, 57000 miles, is running Mobil1 5W30. Been that way for a while (previous owner tells me) though I've changed the oil myself just once.
I'm thinking about switching to 0W30 instead. Any pros or cons to doing this? I live in southeast Michigan, which means it gets cold in winter but not very cold (rarely below 10 degrees Fahrenheit) and hot in summer but not very hot (rarely above 90 degrees Fahrenheit). Car sees "regular" use only - no dragging or track work. It's garaged at night. Several Contour enthusiasts at www.contour.org seem to prefer the 0W30. Any thoughts?
My understanding is that 0W30 will start easier in cold temps, though the 5W30 is probably more than adequate for my situation. The 0W30 should perform/protect just as well at higher temps, correct?
BTW, I saw Castrol 0W30 in stores for the first time this week. I still don't understand how they are charging $.10-.20 more per quart than Mobil charges for Mobil1.
I like you, see no need to use the 0W30. 10W30 would be OK for your condition. I sort of think that in Summer 10W30 gives a little more protection on startup and on lots of short trips. The trade off is maybe a little less gas milage on those shorter trips-probably. I guess in winter 5W30 may be a little better since it gets to parts quicker. Like you said, both in theory should protect the same at operating conditions- in theory. In the absence of anything else what is perferred by the manual??
Castrol-waste of money-cashing in on their name with inferior product.
I was running Amsoil 10W30 in this engine for a few years and this year with it being in a slightly colder climate at school with my daughter I switched it to 0W30. Seems to start a little quicker and quieter. They say their 0W30 lubricates as well as the 10W30 but who knows. stay away from Castol, not a true synthetic.
This month's issue does indeed suggest that oil change intervals should be well beyond 3000 miles for dino. Note on the Buick Regal series they increase the oil change interval to 10,000 miles. This car has the oil change interval light. I assume that this is using dino oil. Interesting potential dealer consumer problem here. Since the oil change interval is different for every driver on a car with the light the dealer will never ever know at what mileage the light came on and when the oil should have been changed. As such, warranty claims will be much different. They can no longer say that you failed to change your oil at 3,000 or 5,000 miles as recommended because there is no recommendation except to do it when the light comes on.
Anyway, if the manufacturers are extending the drain intervals on cars using dino oil then those of us using synthetic should feel very comfortable with the extended drains we have been using (well some of us anyway) in the past.
Had a chance to call Valvoline (1-800-team-val) and Pennzoil/Quaker State (1-800-best-oil same company) to ask them about their syn oils. The Valvoline guy said their oil is a PAO. The Pennzoil/Quaker guy said that the Quaker is a PAO and the Pennzoil is a re-engineered Petroleum Base stock product similar to Redline. He said that the Pennzoil does better in the API Sequence IIIE tests with regards to oxidation. He indicated that its flowing properties at low temperatures are not up to the PAO standards. Both companies are sending me their specifications on all three oils. Both individuals appeared very knowledgeable. Neither has any info. comparing their product to others (naturally). I think I'll call Havoline tomorrow just for the heck of it.
I'm still leary about going more than 1 year on an oil change. I have seven cars to take care of(not all mine) so if I change around the new year and put a filter on somtime during the summer months it's less confusing.
Avoid the oils with the widest spread between the winter and summer numbers. For both conventional and synthetics, the oil manufacturers use a STP-like polymer goop to bridge this gap and this stuff breaks down rather quickly. And when this stuff breaks down, it can form varnish and/or hard deposits inside your motor.
So, I'd a use a 5W30 synthetic unless you live above the arctic circle.
In lawn equipment you are going to ride long and hard, one of my faves is Mobil 1 15W50. Really tough stuff according to some tests done by Redline. Even the competition showed that this stuff's performance barely degraded at all even after 5,000 miles.
If I was going to use a highly-tuned-up petrolem oil (grade III stocks) I'd use Valvoline Max-Life which is a lot like Castrol Syntec ... only half the price. >:^)
aaahhh... Iguess I was under the impression that Redline and Catrol were similar in their makeup. I realize though that Redline is a quality product. Especially if you believe everything that they say.
I really don't believe everything Redline says. It's just that nothing I've seen them say (on their site) jumps out at me as suspicious like some other companies. Ever seen Royal Purple oil? Their site is a bad joke:
www.synerlec.com
Oh, and Redline has an enviable reputation among racers and I really respect THOSE people's opinions a great deal.
Yes, I understand that what makes a good racing motor oil does not necessarily make a good oil for the street but I'm betting there's a very strong correlation.
Actually, the only thing that should change is the weight and the additive package.
Folks: A little help here, please. I have only used dino & semi-synth before, and have not used full synth. When I was changing the oil in my car with the semi-synth every 3K, the oil was dirty, hence the reason for changing it. Do these full synthetics have less contaminants or something that they don't get as dirty, hence longer intervals. I attended a technical course years ago that explained (in dino oil) that 90% of contaminants were actually already in the oil, and that if filtered down to 10 micron they would last much longer, but then the manufacturers wouldn't be selling as much... Are the synthetics filtered more, or just cleaner by nature? Also, are there any issues with additives? My car has had the Fram filters with teflon every 3rd oil change, 9K miles. Is there a problem with switching to synthetic, and if not, what about running these filters? I still have a few of these filters left, that is why I would be using them. - Eric
There is a lot of information above on previous posts you might want to look at to get more information. As far as the filtering issue. I am not really aware that syns are filtered better than other oils. there are ISO standards for filtering purity. I assume they apply to all oils but I'm not sure. I know that when I used to work for a living I read many new oils came packaged complete with particle counts in the numbers and size ranges that were unacceptable.
As far syn blends, they are a big waste of money. You probably only have 10 percent of syn. Fram oil filters in my and many others on this board are the cheapest of junk. I personally would not use one and would throw any I had. I know that's hard to swallow. The premium ones are Mobil 1, Pure one, Ultraguard (Delco), Amsoil. I use Mobil 1 cause I know it has compressed fiberglass media (not paper). The reason that oil gets dirty is mainly three reasons: combustion products/dirt coming in through air filter, oil oxidation, and ring leakage. They all sort of tie together. The syn oil will many times stay cleaner because there is virtually no oxidation of the oil. But once you switch to syn it gets dirty faster because it cleans up deposits left by the old oil. My 94 Corsica is very clean at 5000 miles and only at 10,000 or a years turns dark, at which time I change it. My Toyota Truck on the other hand is dark at 3000 miles. I change it every 8000 or 8 months give or take.
Like I said If you switch to syn, be prepared to change oil every 3 or 4 thou at first. IMHO.
I concur., however, I gathered that you only changed the filter every 9,000 miles, hope I was wrong in that, especially using frams. Their quality in terms of the anti drain back valve is poor, plastic, poor seating etc. and the filter media in general poor. Synthetics additives last longer then dino as well. My oil does not begin to become dark until 7,500 miles but when warm I can still see though it at 10,000 miles. Enignes are clean inside. Dirty looking oil is not necessarily a bad sign and does not mean that oil must be changed. However, without oil analysis the color may be the only indicator. My vote would be to switch but only if the additional cost is not going to be an issue and you do not have unrealistic goals as to what synthetics can do.
Comments
But who's going to stand behind my warranty? Shall I give you an address to which you can mail a blank check to cover me should I experience engine troubles?
Gee that sounds frightful, but hey, how many folks have warranties beyond 36k anyway?? Do you ever wonder why they give you a 36k warranty? (or whatever) Because statistically, the engines DO not break down during this period ESPECIALLY due to oil. Hey, if it makes you jolly to do 12 oil changes when 3 will do. I would say, have at it. I asked my dealer if they would honor engine warranty with 15k oil change intervals with Mobil One oil, he winked at me and said NO problem.
On another vehicle,(American car) The oil change is figured by computer sim and it is good to go to 15k miles (synthetic oil (to a spec) is the specified oil, by the way).
So you can talk about conservation, I really don't, I JUST DO.
But, I am glad you are pressing the case for 3k oil change intervals, my kids are saying they want to apply to grad (MBA) and OD school. Geezzzzz does this ever end!!!???
But you might get some braces out of the deal for the kiddies. I'd support that!
Not to put CA in a bad light, but work with me here!!! There are app 33 M vehicles registered in CA
IF,
everyone did say the average 12-15k per yr mileage and 3k oil changes as opposed to 15k oil changes what would the raw numbers look like!!?? (Savings or waste no matter)
I know they are RAW!! but perhaps they get across the collective idea!!
If 98-99% do conventional oil changes, where would you bet your money on?
Greater or lesser consumption.
LOL, I am going for the braces and the whole shooting match!! (Already did the vette and the undergrad gig)
Let us repeat the mantra, 3k oil changes or bust!!!
I posted this link about 40 posts ago, noting that it applies to aircraft engines. Since no one has commented on it, I guess that either no one read it or no one noticed what I believe it tells us.
Basically, to steal short quote to get us started
"There are many misconceptions about starting cold engines. There is the idea that the engine is difficult to turn over because the "oil is stiff". There is the idea that warm oil is equal to a warm engine."
and now another:
"Because at these temperatures the engine is difficult to "turn over", people attempt to "prop" them and often think that they turn hard because the "oil is stiff". It isn't the oil. The fit of the bearings, gears and pistons is the problem. It's possible to rotate a main bearing insert by hand propping in these temperatures. Should the engine start at temperatures close to this it could be operating with no bearing lubrication due to lack of clearance."
Essentially, what this article says is that, yes; cold starts are responsible for most of the wear in engines. However, changing oils won't do a lot to prevent that cold-start wear. The reason is that not only is the oil cold and thick, but the engine is cold and the tolerances are tight. It's the cold tight ENGINE that causes the wear - not so much lack of oil.
In his tests, he even heated the oil, and found that it didn't help that much.
So, although this applies to Aircraft engines, where the wear is more extreme because of design and operating conditions, the same is true, I think of automobile engines. I also note that he is talking about very cold conditions which would emphasize the problems encountered.
Synthetic oil may reduce cold start wear, but not very signficantly- not enough to reduce engine wear more than dino of the proper grade for the season or conditions. Another myth blown, IMHO.
Note: I still use synthetic in all my cars and my lawnmower. I'd feed it to the cat if I thought it would help him run better. I like the stuff, but only for the high temp protection for bumper to bumper traffic in Dallas conditions (and the like) and for the convenience of long change-intervals.
Feel free to reinterpet the article, but please explain your reasons.
I used to prop start in Alaska....very scary...I hated it. Landing on glaciers, it was not wise to shut down the engine for too long at those drastic ambient temperatures.
Some of the heavy trucks would stay idling December through March, all day and all night. Amazing.
I interpreted the article a little differently in some respects. For one thing the engine is air cooled, aluminum head, aluminum crankcase, steel liners, and aluminum pistons. These clearances he was referring to for this engine are entirely different than a normal vehicle. Aluminum having a different coefficient of expansion.
the issue was the clearance of these parts at -30 degreed F.
But even given all of that, he never said that getting oil to the moving parts would not help eliminate cold start wear. What he said was that the oil could not get through the small ports because of its inherent viscosity and the cold block temperatures. He indicated that oil might not get to the valve guides for 15 minutes.
The very fact that syn 5W30 is pumpable at -58 F. would allow it to reach any part no matter how cold the block was. He was only dealing with a low of temperature of -30 F. He also was dealing with 15W50 oils and other oils ranging to 100W!!!There would have been no problem with syn.reaching these parts at -30 F. Why he chose to deal with oils which could not function at this temperature is beyond me.
BTW he did not discuss syn oil at all.
So the issues are that heating the oil didn't help much because it was too thick and also because the cold clearances of the aircooled aircraft are to small. This is a different kettle of fish and doesn't INMO support your conclusion; nor did he say that. But again-good job digging out the SAE Technical Papers.
BTW you may want to dig out Technical Paper 951026. This paper deals with Mobil developmant of their 2 nd generation of syn oils. (Current batch is generation 3)
On the subject of this SAE 951026 paper: There was discussion on this board on syn oil consumption. An 800,000 mile test of 4 vehicles using syn. revealed an oil consumption of less than 25 quarts of syn for this milage. This equates to about 1 oz. per 1000 miles in mixed driving conditions. This is consistant with what I have experienced.
Al
Regarding oil change intervals- I currently own two german cars and they both specify syn oil and an interval of 15k- I had always stuck to the 3k change mantra=but am becoming a convert to 15k based on some pretty smart engineers packing the syn in the cars and giving it their blessing.
James from ct.
1. The SAE Technical paper referenced above. It was published by Mobil but was accepted by the SAE and published as such. SAE reviews the data. This article gave information on the process Mobil used to test their oils against conventional oils, and also competetor's syn oils. They did not name names but indicated they were premium grade oils. They did this to develop their own blend which surpassed the competition's oils. The test was very open, scientific, and informative. They used all accepted API automative tests (called "sequence tests") They ran these test at 2 to 4 times the required test length. BTW many of their own blends from the article did not come up to expectations as the development proceeded. I can't say Mobil is the best, but I can not prove anything is better. Neither can Mercedes, Porshe, Chrysler (Viper), and GM (Corvette).
2. I have used it for 8 years with outstanding results-for me. As they say "works for me"
Armdtm possibly can enlighten you on Amsoil. I was an Amsoil dealer for a couple of years to get the stuff at a better price for myself and friends. I did at that time try to get information from them on the same tests. They would give me results on "ASTM 4 Ball Tests" which is not the same. Bottom line I can't compare the two. Call Mobil at 1-800-ask-mobil and have them send you their propaganda package.
Mobil uses their own PAO(polyalphaolefin) stock as the syn base. I know Valvoline, Amsoil also use PAO's. Other "syn" oils may not really be true PAO's they may start with a base of pertoleum stocks.
Previous poste here could help you.
I'm not hung up on Mobil. If someone can prove that another product is bettter, I'll jump ship.
Steve J.
Later
Also depends on how often you change the oil and filter. For longer drains a better filter should be the aim. Most differences occur in the quality of the drain back valve (plastic versus rubber versus??) the number of paper pleats and what the pleats are made of.
Mark
I believe the Delco is the Delco Silver or Gold, not sure.
The reason I doubt that the formula has changed is that research programs to develop and certify new products are expensive. Mobil has spent a ton of money on research developing the "gold standard" IMHO. Now that they have merged with EXXON they have more resources. They are not going to hastily scrap this current formula. I have read considerable literature about their research. A reformulation involving all the additives with their different solubilities in the base stock and also optimizing is not a cheap shot. Testing the different combinations and adjusting/retesting would take a chunk of time (year(s)).
BTW Subject: Gas Milage with syn oil. A Dec. 2000 "Automotive Engineering" article on testing various large trucks with syn in engine and drive train gave values of 3.1 to 4.2% increase in fuel economy depending of the type and size of truck. With a leap of faith you could realize 25 bucks a year in savings. (if you need to justfy the extra cost of syn)
Al
Doesn't it say "tri-blend" or something like that on the bottle?
Thanks
In the April automobile issue, they are singing the praises of extended drain intervals for crankcase oil.....
Now that we have recited the "right" mantra, exactly what is a "extended" drain interval, say from the article's opinion and more specifically YOUR opinion.
2. If you drive under the normal schedule guidelines (say 7,500) anything over that, if severe (say 3,000) then anything over that
Fairly simply to me.
For many years now I have gone against the advise of the owner's manual on oil changes. Hoping for a fight but the damn oil keeps on going and I cannot get it to make an engine fail. Remember the oil has to be the cause of the failure, not the failure to change the oil per "recommended" schedules.
Seems pretty normal and "no brainer to me" the 7500 mile GIG seems to be what manufacturer's are recommending using conventional oils. The range being 3k, 5k, 6k, 7.5k.
So using SYNTHETIC oils whose longer lasting qualities can vary between 2-5 times that of conventional oils the range seems to be 3k, 6k, 7.5k, 10.5k, 13.5k, 15k, 18k, 21k,25k,30k,...37.5k
When I see these numbers in print it would appear that I am at a way conservative side of the scale using the synthetic oil. (15k intervals)
I'm thinking about switching to 0W30 instead. Any pros or cons to doing this? I live in southeast Michigan, which means it gets cold in winter but not very cold (rarely below 10 degrees Fahrenheit) and hot in summer but not very hot (rarely above 90 degrees Fahrenheit). Car sees "regular" use only - no dragging or track work. It's garaged at night. Several Contour enthusiasts at www.contour.org seem to prefer the 0W30. Any thoughts?
My understanding is that 0W30 will start easier in cold temps, though the 5W30 is probably more than adequate for my situation. The 0W30 should perform/protect just as well at higher temps, correct?
BTW, I saw Castrol 0W30 in stores for the first time this week. I still don't understand how they are charging $.10-.20 more per quart than Mobil charges for Mobil1.
I like you, see no need to use the 0W30. 10W30 would be OK for your condition. I sort of think that in Summer 10W30 gives a little more protection on startup and on lots of short trips. The trade off is maybe a little less gas milage on those shorter trips-probably. I guess in winter 5W30 may be a little better since it gets to parts quicker. Like you said, both in theory should protect the same at operating conditions- in theory. In the absence of anything else what is perferred by the manual??
Castrol-waste of money-cashing in on their name with inferior product.
Later
Anyway, if the manufacturers are extending the drain intervals on cars using dino oil then those of us using synthetic should feel very comfortable with the extended drains we have been using (well some of us anyway) in the past.
I'm still leary about going more than 1 year on an oil change. I have seven cars to take care of(not all mine) so if I change around the new year and put a filter on somtime during the summer months it's less confusing.
So, I'd a use a 5W30 synthetic unless you live above the arctic circle.
In lawn equipment you are going to ride long and hard, one of my faves is Mobil 1 15W50. Really tough stuff according to some tests done by Redline. Even the competition showed that this stuff's performance barely degraded at all even after 5,000 miles.
If I was going to use a highly-tuned-up petrolem oil (grade III stocks) I'd use Valvoline Max-Life which is a lot like Castrol Syntec ... only half the price. >:^)
--- Bror Jace
Did you mean to write "Castrol" but your fingers typed "Redline"?
--- Bror Jace
www.synerlec.com
Oh, and Redline has an enviable reputation among racers and I really respect THOSE people's opinions a great deal.
Yes, I understand that what makes a good racing motor oil does not necessarily make a good oil for the street but I'm betting there's a very strong correlation.
Actually, the only thing that should change is the weight and the additive package.
--- Bror Jace
I attended a technical course years ago that explained (in dino oil) that 90% of contaminants were actually already in the oil, and that if filtered down to 10 micron they would last much longer, but then the manufacturers wouldn't be selling as much... Are the synthetics filtered more, or just cleaner by nature?
Also, are there any issues with additives? My car has had the Fram filters with teflon every 3rd oil change, 9K miles. Is there a problem with switching to synthetic, and if not, what about running these filters? I still have a few of these filters left, that is why I would be using them.
- Eric
As far syn blends, they are a big waste of money. You probably only have 10 percent of syn. Fram oil filters in my and many others on this board are the cheapest of junk. I personally would not use one and would throw any I had. I know that's hard to swallow. The premium ones are Mobil 1, Pure one, Ultraguard (Delco), Amsoil. I use Mobil 1 cause I know it has compressed fiberglass media (not paper).
The reason that oil gets dirty is mainly three reasons: combustion products/dirt coming in through air filter, oil oxidation, and ring leakage. They all sort of tie together. The syn oil will many times stay cleaner because there is virtually no oxidation of the oil. But once you switch to syn it gets dirty faster because it cleans up deposits left by the old oil. My 94 Corsica is very clean at 5000 miles and only at 10,000 or a years turns dark, at which time I change it. My Toyota Truck on the other hand is dark at 3000 miles. I change it every 8000 or 8 months give or take.
Like I said If you switch to syn, be prepared to change oil every 3 or 4 thou at first. IMHO.
Al
Synthetics additives last longer then dino as well. My oil does not begin to become dark until 7,500 miles but when warm I can still see though it at 10,000 miles. Enignes are clean inside. Dirty looking oil is not necessarily a bad sign and does not mean that oil must be changed. However, without oil analysis the color may be the only indicator. My vote would be to switch but only if the additional cost is not going to be an issue and you do not have unrealistic goals as to what synthetics can do.