Synthetic motor oil

armtdm

Yea, initially it did drive me nuts to go a year between changes but with son and car at school it was easier to deal with. Then the oil analysis came back fine and I just started doing it on a few cars, analysis fine, no sludge no condensation. So, now I do it on two cars, others I extend to 7,500-12,000 miles depending but even at 7,500 oil is amber and you can see through it when warm. As someone pointed out on one of these boards when was the last time you saw or heard of an engine failing due to the oil breaking down. It is sludge, condensation etc. but the failure of the oil itself, never. So, if you warm the engine every time for 10 miles, don't live in Canada and use quality products a year is reasonable. I just drained the OEM oil out of my new Buick with the indicator light on the car . It still had 44% life on the indicator at 4400 miles. Oil was still amber and I could see through it at 4400 miles no doubt petroleum OEM as well. So, on most new engines 5,000-7,500 miles even using petroleum. I plan on going 12,000 between changes now that I have switched to synthetic.

dpwestlake

I would think that with 5W-20 being recommended that the oil pumps on these cars would be putting out more pressure and volume. It would make sense if moving a larger volume of oil through the parts would keep them cooler.

I've used 20W-50 on worn engines to keep the oil pressure up. I would be interested to see what the readings on a pressure gauge would be at idle and 2000 rpm.

adc100

That article in Automotiev Engineering indicated that Ford needed to prove that their engine would last 150,000 (I believe) on the 20wt stuff. So I agree with you that wear will be acceptable. There is little doubt in my mind that it will not give the life of a 30 wt oil. Thats just speculation - no facts to back it up. I'd bet the farm on it though. As you said a while back it would be difficult to evaluate the wear for a 20 wt to a 30 wt because of all the variables.

blujeep

I know that using synth-oil can't void a warranty as long as I use the proper grade, but how about this scenario:
If I go 12-15k miles between changes, will I run into problems with Chrysler if, God forbid, something goes wrong with my engine? Since they specify either 3k or 7.5k changes, can they say that because I waited 12-15k to change the oil (even tho it's synth-oil) that I caused the problem & therefore voided the warranty?
If they do, what recourse do I have? Anyone have any experience with this situation or have any thoughts/opinions?
Thanks.

armtdm

There is no question that the dealer will calim that you failed to change the oil as recommended. However, what most people do not realize is that the manufacturer must prove that it was the oil that failed to properly lubricate and NOT that one failed to change it in accordance with a RECOMMENDED schedule. So they must prove that the oil was basically bad and did not lubricate the engine. I know of no catastrophic engine failures caused by failure to lubricate, within warrranty all engine failures are sludge (okay, oil bad or should have been changed) but even if oil never changed any car can probably go beyond the standard 36,000 miles warranty. Thus, almost all engine failures under warranty (normal usage not racing etc) are component failure of some kind. Unfortunately, what scares most people off is that you either have to go to court to prove this or threaten to do so to get the attention of the dealer. Amsoil does warrant its oil for one year or 25,000 miles with a filter at 6 months but quite honestly, not sure this has ever been tested. In my case I have oil analysis to show a judge to prove the oil was still good but most people play it safe and go within the schedule while under the warranty. I would suggest in that case going the maximum as shown in the manual between changes.

adc100

Like armtdm says go with the maximum in the manual. Theoretically they have to prove the engine was damaged because of this extended drain period. But they are also the ones which must agree to fix the vehicle. So the burdon of proof is in the real world on you. They can tear the engine apart and send the pieces to "their lab" and say bla..bla..bla. Now th ball's in your court.

You could be like the accountant on Shawshenk Redemption and have ... two.... oil change books. One for you and one for them. Stock up with extra oil and filters for receipts. I can't believe I just said that. Just thinking out loud. I have few scruples when it comes to scrupleless auto dealers/manufactures.

jimmah

Nice to see some good discussion that the average person would never consider. When I switched to synthetic oil over 25 years ago and never switched back. I have been very satisfied with the performance and can tell the difference easier engine starting, improved gas mileage, faster acceleration, and lower engine vibration and noise. I have installed an Amsoil bypass filter (not the dual remote which is my preferred choice) on a Toyota Echo. In hindsight, it was not cost effective but now I know how good it is. I could not find a place to install one on my Honda Odyssey, . If I ever try to install one of these filters again, I will go with the dual remote and install it myself. The bypass required quite a bit of modification and I don't have all the required tools. This was my effort in tinkering with a perfectly good machine, which I made better, but at a cost. I agree with ARMTDM that without oil analysis, most can drive between 12-15k miles which is about one year before changing with oils that are 100% synthetic. Not all the oils labeled synthetic are 100% so you have to be careful (read previous messages). You can't tell unless you know some the insider information from the technical publications. I periodically have my oil analyzed so I can trend its performance and determine my drain intervals. We all abuse our vehicles in different ways and that is why the manufacturer recommended such low mileage between oil changes to cover their butts. In general, the quality of American petro-motor oils is inferior to the European countries who have higher mileage between oil changes. Synthetic oil, in general, have raised the bar. I do not know how far I can drive with the present oil (Amsoil 0W-30), which I have 17K on it now using a bypass filter. My next sample will be at 20K, first sample was at 10k. I'll sample the oil on my Honda (I/I bypass) when it gets to 15K. In general the one year rule should be followed if not using the bypass filter arrangement, because most people don't exceed 20K for one year. If you were driving 35,000 miles a year, the engine is running a lot. Most engine wear occurs when the car is started because the film of oil on the moving parts have drained away. Synthetic stays on longer, even to the point of recommending (Amsoil) not to check the oil level until 8 hours after engine shutdown to prevent false low level reading and to avoid overfilling the sump. I'll report back after my second sample off both vehicles.

blujeep

Good advice, except for 1 problem - I have an extended warranty (10 yrs/100,000 miles). I could do what you suggested and wait out the 36,000 miles (I already have 25,200 miles on it) but I'm still gonna be covered for a long time after.
But I agree with what you said - I guess I'll change it at the max interval specified in the manual.
And I like your idea, Adc100. ;-) Sounds interesting...

blujeep

I've read alot about them here but I have no clue how to go about doing it.
Anyone...?

adc100

I said I thought the Mobil 1 ATF was not a PAO. I called them and the Guy said its a PAO. I asked him if he was positive and he said yes.

However Mobil's definition of a true "fully" synthetic is a PAO. Now the container of the ATF says "100%" synthetic. Mobil 1 Motor oil says "fully" and we know its a PAO. Here's what the data sheet says for the ATF: "The product is manufactured from synthesized hydrocarbon base oils and a specially balanced additive system. The synthetic fluid is fully compatible with petroleum ATF products. " I think they are playing games.

tc93

Regarding message # 1457 by jimmah - Please post the oil analysis results on this board. I'm VERY interested in seeing it.

Would you consider sharing the 10k oil analysis results?

In what part of the country do you live and operate your vehicles? What are the typical summer temps?

Thanks.

brucer2

I think I want to know what your professional credentials are for evaluating petroleum products.

jimmah

There are places locally and nationally that will analyze your oil. Most are probably located in larger industrial areas where commercial customers send their oils. It is a huge expensive when the equipment like the power plant main turbine has a large sump if they change it and the oil is still good. Their sump is can be over 10,000 gallons of lube oil, and the emergency diesels have capacities in the hundreds of gallons. Amsoil subcontracts to an outfit called Oil Analyzers and the kit number is G-1451. Goes to the www.Amsoil.com. and use customer id #402023, cost is under $20. You sample by sucking the oil out with a pump. I was cheap and use a soap dispenser pump (after thoroughly cleaning it) and connected it to 1/4" hard plastic tubing that is available at any hardware store (I use Home Depot) and don't reuse the tubing. Take the sample soon after the engine is shut down, although they recommend while the engine is running. It is too hot for me even soon after the engine is shutdown. I use leather gloves to keep burning my hands. When you pump, purge about two ounces before collecting the final sample to flush out impurties that may be in the tubing or when you inserted the tubing down the dip stick tube. Make sure the tubing is a little longer than the length of the dip stick and you can mark how far you need to insert the tubing by comparing it to the dip stick markings.

My results after 10K. I live in Atlanta where the summer temperatures average around 95F, winter average low is about 30F. I drive 17 miles to work one way. I average about 17K on the Echo, my Odyssey (18k for 9 mo) for this first year may end up around 24k because I have been traveling a lot for vacations and table tennis tournaments. I don't encounter a lot of stop and go driving because I'll find alternate routes to keep moving.

oil vis oxd nox TBN Fe
2000 Echo 5W-30 12.2 12.2 48.6 7.0 20ppb
10740 miles w/byp 11.8new 12.0new

2000 Odyssey 0W-30 12.0 11.1 34.3 7.2 70
9558 miles w/o byp 11.5new 11.4new

Alert limit >12.5 >100.0 >100.0 <5.0 >300

There are other parameters such as Pb, Al, Sn, Cr, and Cu which are wear products from the engines. Most of the above are oil properties except for Fe.

jimmah

The table didn't come out very well. Anyway Amsoil viscosity for the two oils I use when new range from 11.1 to 11.5, and TBN from 11.4 to 12.0. Viscosity will increase as engine heat degrades the oil and TBN deceases as acids buildup. Someone in an earlier message mentioned an oil cooler. That would help minimize viscosity degradation, but it was another extra cost. Buy it if it is an option from the factory.

adc100

Thanks for the info.

brucer2: (re:professional credentials). Pardon me, But I didn't think they were required to post on this board here. But seriously, I would like to know the answer- is it a PAO or not??? Perhaps someone out there with sufficient "professional credentials" can enlighten me- I'm stumped.

Thanks
Al, B.S.Eng.(M.E.), B.S Phys. Sci

brorjace

Gee, I leave for 5 days and look what I miss!

Well, I'm not going to try and answer every point but there are some comments I'd like to make.

Brucer2 - just because I'm not an engineer or tribologist doesn't make my points or opinions invalid. Engineers disagree on the issue of synthetic oil's benefits and because they are human, some get "tunnel vision" on a given issue, become stubborn and fail to look at the big picture. So, having the title "engineer" attached to your name doesn't automatically make your opinion 100% valid while canceling out everyone else's ... especially when those layperson's opinions are backed up by at least siome reasoning.

Taass, I like the fact that you initially poked fun at some things I said but if you followed my earlier posts on this board and others, you'd see that we agree about a lot of points. Lots of little things like thicker oil isn't always better, It's the additives in oil that break down first, etc ...

I agree with adc100 that Honda and others are willing to trade a little long term durability in return for fuel economy numbers the EPA approves of. Sure, 5W20 may be fine for SOME everyday applications but for folks who live where it's constantly hot and they drive under higher loads or at higher RPMs, I think they are marginal. For example I drive a '95 Honda Civic 1.5L and I drive mostly highway at around 75mph. This car does not come with a tach but based on Hondas I've driven in the past, I'm estimating I'm turning around 4,000-4,500 rpms ... for hours at a time! Thanks, but I'll take the extra protection that a synthetic 5W30 or, now that my car has over 100K on the clock, a synthetic 10W30 provides.

When people ask me how to clean out their motor using additives, I tell them to forget the additives and do a couple short-interval oil & filter changes using a conventional oil and cheap filter. They are very inexpensive (compared to some services I've heard about) and they couldn't be any safer to perform. I referred to it as a "dead-dino enema," so what?

--- Bror Jace

taass

This would be no fun if there were requisite credentials for joining this discussion. I'm a firm beleiver that it doesn't take a trained engineer or scientist to make insightful deductions from data presented before them. What it does take is someone who will look at that information, find out what it says about the system analyzed, and then legitimately question those results. Data is only as good as the person analyzing it.

What an engineering education does provide is the scientific and mathematical tools to make deductions from pieces of information and understand things that we see. Most importantly, engineering is about SOLVING PROBLEMS. Often, that is more art than it is science. I won't elaborate - this could go on a while.

So, I don't care about the crendentials of anyone who posts on this board. In fact, I prefer not to know. What I do object to is: 1. Spouting complete and utter crap; 2. Nonesensical conclusions without reasonable evidence. Adressing the 2nd point: People are sometimes wrong, and that's OK. But, spoken word without due thought is just criminal. If you are unsure about something, think about it and question why things are the way they are. For example - why is it presumed that 5W20 won't protect a particular engine as well as 5W30? I mean REALLY - not just because it's thinner. (Yes, the "presumed" can be read as commentary . Ask questions, PRESENT questions (that keeps the discussion going), and do some homework before you post.

Ranting over, I guess I'd better fulfill the synthetic oil discussion requirement that was left short by my meager effort in the last paragraph. I've not done any oil analysis as of yet. I drain at 5Kmi and figure that $20 for an oil analysis is not much less than it costs to change my oil. Perhaps that would pay for itself after the adoption of safe longer drain intervals. Personally, I'm not going to put much money into oil analysis. Twenty five bucks and 20 minutes of my time three times a year isn't a great expense. Shoot, it costs me more to fill up my gas tank right now! And, there's all the evidence in the world to show that I could safely extend oil services with synthetic well beyond 7500mi with the conditions under which I drive. That means I'm playing it safe, keeping expenses moderate, and not piddling away my time on oil analysis. I'd rather have fun driving then worry about whether my engine is happy. But, for some that may be a hobby as well as an intriguing science. To each his own.

Later.

adc100

I agree with with your concept of not doing the oil analysis. I certainly don't fault anyone who does it. "Knowledge is power" for some. The reason I don't do it is that I'm not sure what I would do If the Irons came back high. So here I think for me the "Ignorance is bliss" policy better describes what I do. If I didn't have so many vehicles to change oil in I probably would change at say the 5000 miles you suggested.

Al

brorjace

Taass, I take the same appraoch to problem solving as you outlined above. If you think I've posted something you consider to be 'utter crap' or where I've reached a nonsensical conclusion, I'd like you to point it out to me and tell me why you think so.

As for 5W20, remember when owner's manuals used to give you a chart for whatever vehicle or machine you'd buy and that chart would show different oil weights for different temperatures/climates? I do, and invariably the hotter the average temperaure expected during operation, the heavier/thicker oil was recommended. Many of us were brought up believing that the thinner oils can't put up with the heat and stress as well as the thicker stuff can. This has always been a basic truth where engine maintenance is concerned. When we see warm 5W20 oil drained out of a car and it's the consistency of water, I think our alarm/concern is reasonable. Think of all the other things that have been added to cars over the past 30 years that have made them run poorly or made them more difficult to maintain in the long run. I'm ready to add ultra-thin motor oils to this list as well.

Sure, synthetics have changed these rules somewhat, but I believe some of the tried and true practices still apply.

Oh, and if you use 6,000 mile oil & filter change intervals and you agree that synthetic oil provides a modest gain of 2% in fuel economy (I've seen tests that suggest 3-4% gains are more common) from fewer pumping losses and reduced friction, then the operating expense is almost an exact wash with mineral oil and 3,000 mile intervals.

--- Bror Jace

armtdm

Yea, I do it but worth the cost?? My son just purchased a 97 Isuzu with 57,000 miles on engine which looks a little dark inside (not sludge, just ver amber coating of film, not clean like a synthetic engine would look. Anyway, I switched it over to Amsoil and after 3000 decided to do an oil analysis which came back great. So, this additional cost informed me that the next change will probably be 7,500 miles or I may go to the once a year schedule as I did on his previous car. As you say, top each his own. But I maintain 5 cars between kids etc so 3000-5000 changes would be a hassle and I only test maybe once a year anyway.

studioartist

I am trying to find a correlation between synthetic user and engine longevity and there are none. There are users out there on various postings w/ high mileage engines running w/ 200-300k miles and not I hardly see them tout it's all due to synthetic. Heck go to Toyota site and log in to the database of owners...you will find plenty of high mileage engines. Unless you live in a snowy climate or extreme heat I can't justify the cost.

taass

I think my "salty" style can bite people now and then. Sarcasm and inflections are difficult to read in text, and I try to avoid them if at all possible. Rest assured that if I make a generalization as I did above, then it is just that - a generalization. If I ever had a disagreement for whatever reason with an individual, be certain that I would also post the NAME of that user. I won't hide behind this electronic anonymity. Perhaps I read too much into the first paragraph of your last post. . . moving on.

I'm becoming frustrated with a lack of information on long term results of 5W20 oil in production vehicles. Trade publications may be my next stop. I've not had the pleasure of draining hot 5W20, but I'm sure it is as everyone says, quite thin. However, Brorjace (here it comes), your perception of the viscous properties of the oil are quite subjective. And, ". . all the other things that have been added to cars over the past 30 years that have made them run poorly. . . " P-LEEEZ! Think about all the things that have been added to cars to make them run BETTER in the last 30 years. Cars today are faster, more reliable, cleaner burning, and much more fuel efficient then they were 30 years ago. That's just a poor argument, Brorjace. NO ONE has yet proven that 5W20 is an inappropriate lubricant when specified in whatever Honda engine we are talking about (Accord I-4?) Think about this - everyone who's posted reservations about the 5W20 oil recommendation has done so sole on the APPEARANCE that the oil is "thin." You'll have to do much better than that to convince me.

So, let's summarize:
1. Brorjace might have thought I was directing some generalizations toward him - I wasn't, but I also might have read his post wrong (my bad).

2. Taass is annoyed that there is no readily available comparative analysis of 5W20 motor oil as it pertains to engine performance and wear. Officially posting a bounty on said data.

3. Formally blasts Brorjace (in a nice way, I hope) for subjective statements regarding the viscosity of his 5W20.

4. Taass continues to question Brorjace's existence in the year 2001 with his list of things added to cars to make them run poorly. I'll take my fuel injection, thank you.

Hey, I probably wouldn't use the 5W20 in my engine if SAE30 was acceptible. But, I want someone to justify my moratorium on the thinner oil. I'll gladly shut my pie hole if someone can point me to a credible source demonstrating inferior protection of 5W20 related to the Honda engine.

I make no apologies for singling people out. It was Brorjace today, who will it be tomorrow? Can't we all just get along? Alright, I'm wearing my target. Fire away.

tboner1965

Well it depends on your view. If you plan to change the oil every 3k, yeah, you are probably right.

But if you want to extend the drain interval to say 5K to 10K miles between changes, then it is actually pretty cost neutral when compared to regular oil changes every 3K.

I worked out the costs a while back and one synthetic change every 5K miles vs 1.67 changes of regular oil is only a couple of bucks higher. BTW, I did this for my SVT Contour and MPV which both take 6 quarts of oil vs the 4 for my Buick, and since the oil is the largest cost in a synthetic change, it skews the numbers in favor of the regular oil, and it was still only a few dollars higher. (Less than $5 IIRC)

Not to mention:

1. Synthetic generally offers better protection at the extremes (heat and cold conditions)

2. If you only get a 1% improvement in fuel economy, then that is 50 free miles of gasoline over 5000 miles, check out the price of gas and tell me you wouldn't like some free gas. It might happen with synthetic oil.

3. It makes me feel better.

4. I have more free time since I'm doing fewer oil changes.

A mixture of pseudo scientific and pseudo psycological reasons why I do synth changes every 5K miles.

Cheers,

TB

armtdm

If one changes the oil and filter with the cheapest crap avialable that has the SJ markongs and filter that doesn't leak (FRAM) (actually every 3000 miles you probably don't even need a filter) one will get at least 100,000 miles out of the car probably 150,000-200,000. So, synthetic longevity, changing every 7,500-15,000 same engine life with easier starting and more protection. Depends on how mush you like to cahgne your oil or viist you dealer/Jiffy Lube. Also, enviromentally better but that does not attract many people!

adc100

I said some time ago we can agree to disagree on the effect of engine life by using a 20 wt. oil. I'll give you my thoughts. BTW you might want to look at the Feb (I believe) issue of "Automotive Engineering which discusses the 20 wt issue in the Ford current generation of engines. One thing which was mentioned: Ford did have to submit proof to the EPA that the engine would last 150,000 miles. Now since the EPA questioned this, it is reasonable that some learned engineers within the organization were "concerned" about the effect of this lighter oil weight on engine life.

150,000 miles would appear to me to be an nonimpressive engine life. As I said mobil has done tests with conventional and syn oil on various engines and evaluated wear at 200,000 miles. At least mobil presumably thinks engines -even with conventional oil should last that long.

For at least 30 years-30 weight oil has been the standard of use in automotive engines. This would be hundreds of millions of engines and thousands of engine designers and engineers involved. Apparently they all agreed on 30 wt oil. Honda and Ford may have come up with a new design to take advantage of a lighter oil, but I'm not ready to buy into it. And I don't believe they have.

I think my biggest concern is the level of protection when bad things happen in an engine. To me this would be, say a cooling system malfunction on a hot day. It's not unusual to see cars in traffic jams overheat as they sit there with their AC running. Race engines use 40/50 wt oil with RPM's of well in excess of 10K. Apparently that wt oil is necessary to insure a higher level of protection. Presumably 20wt would not do the job.

I have 3 questions for you:

1. Will the film strength of a 20 wt oil protect moving parts as well as a 30 wt? If so -why?

2. If your wife and daughter (or significiant other) were traveling in a vehicle and the the engine temperature was approaching the upper limit. Would you rather have a 20 wt ot 30 wt oil in the crankcase?? if a 20 wt. why?

3. Will the 20 wt raise fleet milage and allow these manufactures to make more (higher profit/lower milage rating) SUV's/Mini Vans/Trucks

I can't answer "yes" for #1, or 20 wt. for #2 or "no" for #3 so that clinches it for me. It would be interesting to ask Ford/Honda these questions.

rcarboni

Found this posted on another forum:

Mercedes-Benz USA, LLC
A Daimler/Chrysler Company
March 27, 2001

One of the many benefits of owning a Mercedes-Benz is the confidence that comes from knowing your vehicle is backed by some of the world's best automotive engineers. Of course, another is our desire to make sure you continue to get superior performance as long as you own your Mercedes-Benz. For that reason, we ask that you review and follow the two recommendations below regarding the maintenance of your vehicle.

Mercedes-Benz now recommends pure synthetic motor oils.
Based on vehicle performance testing, our engineers have concluded that for vehicles equipped with flexible Service System
(FSS), continued optimal engine performance at service intervals called for by FSS can only be maintained through the
Consistent, long-term use of pure synthetic motor oil.

For that reason, pure synthetic oil is now the only engine lubricant recommended by Mercedes-Benz for 1998 and 1999 model year vehicles equipped with FSS While conventional oils deliver reliable performance, pure synthetic motor oil is engineered to flow faster than conventional oil, thus lubricating your engine more efficiently. Switching to pure synthetic motor oil at your next oil change will allow your engine to perform at its peak

Among the brands of synthetic oil we suggest are Mobil 1, Valvoline, Castrol and Shell. Detailed information on motor oil for your vehicle can be found in the endorsed Mercedes-Benz Factory Approved Service Products booklet

So, if you are currently using one of the recommended brands of pure synthetic motor oil in your vehicle, please continue to do so following FSS-recommended maintenance intervals. If you are using conventional oil, we strongly recommend that you switch to pure synthetic oil at the time of your next FSS scheduled maintenance interval.

Mercedes-Benz - registered trademarks of Daimlerchrysler AG. Stuttgart, Federal Republic of Germany

sinjin_dog

Just bought a 96 Previa, SC, thinking about changing it to Mobile 1.
Can I do any harm to the engine? It's got 87000 miles on it using dino oil.
Already am using Mobile 1 for the new Camry(4 cyl). I do not mind about little more cost for the added protection.

Any input will be appreciated.

pulgo

It is never too late to switch to synthetic oil. Unless your Previa is already consuming a lot of oil I would recommend switching immediately.
Due to the much better cleaning ability of Mobil 1 I would do another change after 3K miles (to remove accumulated deposits) and then go to longer periods of 6K miles or more. Just make sure you use one of the viscosities recommended in you manual. A 5W30 will probably be the best year round option.

ocelot1

I was looking at the chevron site and notice that all their synthetic oils start with a 100% synthetic base stock.And there delo4oo 0w-30 pours down to -76F where as Amsoil 0w-30 only pours down to -62F seems like a big difference to me.I was also reading that the chevron supreme synthetic will be the first oil on the market to meet the new GF-3 standards.just some info from a chevron juncky!! Oh talking about thin oil just check out Amsoil 0w-30 or 5w-30 looks thinner than all the others at room temp.I'm not ditching this stuff just comparing! Tony

adc100

is not to me the real issue when it comes to differences in syn. Mobil 15W-50 pumps down to -38F. Thts good enough for most of the US. I would have no problem with using Chevron if its a 100% PAO. In the grand scheme of things its probably no better or worse than Amsoil or Mobil 1. But then, we'll probably never know.

armtdm

I use both the Amsoil 0W and 10W oil in different engines and at this point I do not see the difference in the oil you mention. One does not seem thinner to me. The 0W is doing great and I am only using it in a car that daughter has at school in a colder climate. I used it previously (different car) and found no change in mpg or other but the car in question does start easier and the lifter noise due to no oil at start up appears reduced or gone. Since I change this one only once a year it is in there until Jan 2002 before I get it analyzed. Lucky other cars all use 10W as keeping multiple weights on hand is a pain

taass

Ford's durability testing makes an interesting statement about SAE20 oil. Does it matter if an engine lasts 150,000 if it doesn't run very well for the last 50,000? It's more then extending the life of an engine, but maintaining performance of that engine throughout it's life. I'll look up the article in AE - thanks for the reference, adc.

To me, the question "will 30 protect better than 20" is not so much relevant as the question "will 20 protect good enough." If the difference between the oils is insignificant, then why not use the 20 to take advantage of the benefits of thinner oil. Then, there is the fuel economy issue. As one contributor wrote that a %1 increase in fuel economy would offer 50 free miles every 5000. That's generally not good enough for me. That equates to 3 bucks savings (max) which is not even the cost of a quart of Mobil1.

So, I can't find any pressing reasons NOT to use 20 weight, or any overwhelming economic reasons NOT to use 30 weight. So, it's just a toss up right now until I hear otherwise. Let me do some reading and look up the article in AE and get back to you.

sinjin_dog

Thanks
My Previa SC is not consuming much oil. Will find out more as more driving occurs.
Looking at 10w30 since I am in So Cal.

pulgo

For the summer you might even consider a synthetic 10W40 or 15W40. This would give you added protection and peace of mind for the hottest months.

adc100

syns give the same protection of one grade thicker conventional oil.

pulgo

Yes, they do. But they resist extreme temperatures better over a longer period of time.

bluedevils

Did anybody else see the recent article on "Synthetic oil - is it worth it?" in Auto World Weekly? There wasn't a whole lot of strong opinion or out-on-a-limb recommendations, just the basics: synth probaby provides added protection/insurance in certain situations, etc.

Overall, it was a disappointing article - I was hoping they would take a stronger stand on one side (synth is worth it) or the other (it isn't). Just thought I'd mention it, in case anybody's interested in digging it up or in having me dig up the copy I've got laying around the house somewhere.

pulgo

I don't think any auto magazine is going to enthusiastically recommend a synthetic motor oil. They wouldn't want to loose advertisers, don't you think?

pulgo

sorry for the spelling error

mapconsultant3

I have read on this forum that short trips are harmful to engine oil because the oil/engine does not reach normal operating temperature and therefore condensation remains in the oil. It is my understanding that this condensation can degrade the motor oil. I use Mobil 1 10/30 in my toylta land cruiser. At what outside temp should I be concerned with overnite condensation? I live in So. Cal. and wonder if overnite temps in my garage would contribute to alot of condensation.It would be rare that temps would drop below 40 in our mild climate. Does condensation occur on a hot summer day? At what temps should I worry about this?

yurakm

Is it the following article you mentioned?

http://www.autoworldweekly.com/Feature%20Archive/Feature%20Pages/SyntheticOilFeature.htm

alanwagen

I am just curious about the blended oils. Conventional and synthetic. The oil companies should tell you what the ratio is. It could be all conventional oil with one drop of synthetic and they still could called it blended.
I used Mobil One in a Mitsubishi 3.0 V6 up to a 116000 miles and it started to blow oil. Valve guides dropped. No fault of the oil but then again I never saw any benefit either.
I wonder if blended oils would be a viable compromise?

ocelot1

I found out that chevron synthetic is PAO actually chevron manufactures the base stock and they sell this stock to the leadind synthetic blenders interesting? I would guess that maybe mobil and shell might make there own but all the off brands like amsoil/redline/valvoline and so on buy from one of these leaders. Chevron said they develope the PAO base about 20 years ago and just recently started selling the rights to others to use it or manufacture it.What do you guys think? Tony

sailor_moon

This is a response to message 1492. I used to own a Mitsubishi Tredia, and the car never
passed smog check since brand new. I always had to take it back to dealer to get smog
test pass. The tranny went out twice. The timing belt broke before the recommended 60K
change. The engine overheat all the time. Always need to turn on the heater just to keep the
temperature gague low. Imagine doing that during summer time. The engine pust out a lot of smoke. So, I am not suprised that your Mitsubishi went out at 116000 miles. Since Mitsubishi makes bad engine, Mobile 1 will not help in this case.

Currently, I am using Mobile One 5W30 on my Honda Odyssey. I used to use Castro Synthetic oil on my Honda Civic for 5 years. After reading about Castro oil not being based on
PAO, I am switching it to Mobile 1. Good Bye Castro. Hello Mobile 1.

This forum is very informative. So please keep up the good work.

blujeep

but what does PAO mean???? I keep reading about it here but I'm clueless.

adc100

Don't feel bad. PAO is an abbreviation for a chemical term called "Polyalphaolefin" this is a chemical made by a chemical process. This PAO starts out in life as a component of Natural gas which is "ethylene". But really who cares. It's the main component of Mobil one. There is another component called an ester which allows the additive package to "bond" with the PAO.

ocelot1: as yurakm's article indicated, Mobil invented the PAO in the late forties. Don't know where you get your info.

alanwagen: the "blended" syns have a low concentration of somewhere around 10%. Someone who seemed to know indicated this was the required minimum. It's unlikely they would use much more than this. Save money, blend your own, it would be better than 100% conventional oil. But then again the main advantage of syn is its ability to lubricate when bad things happen to your engine. So if you blended the conventional oil in your blend could start "cookin' "

mdecamps

I called Valvoline today and talked to one of their techs with regards to the 5W40 Synthetic that they have. This is the oil that is recommended in the majority of the new European Cars. I asked him about the 10K drain interval recommended by VW (I have a Jetta TDI) and he said their oil is not good for that long! He recommended that I go no further than 4K on my changes. He then mentioned that Mobil used to recommend the extended drain intervals on their products and that they no longer do because they were having too many problems. He went into detail about how the additives dissapear out of the oil after a few thousand miles. He said that the oil would be good for 10K, but many of the additives would already be depleted from the oil. This goes against what many write on this board, and I would like to hear some valid arguments against what this guy told me. Any info. would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark

adc100

I don't know if Valvoline is a PAO oil. If it isn't, that could explain the absense of extended drain intervals recommendations. Quite honestly (in my opinion) you would not expect the total truth from any manufacturer(Mobil included) with respect to their product or information about a competetor's product. Mobil says their endorsement of the 25 K oil change was deleted because of liability and the winds of politics. They did not want to be out of step with recommendations from the manufacturer.
I have a very high confidence in the Mobil product because in my former job (Engineering/ Maintenance Supervisor) , I was involved with selection of lubricants. I talked to the engineering departments which most people have no access to. I also received what I felt was honest information. I got benefits and also negatives of products with respect to Mobil's brand and competetor's brands. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that Mobil made the best automotive syn. As a matter of fact an Exxon engineer admitted this to me (his opinion only). We bought mostly Exxon products.

You can check an SAE Technical Paper (951026) which describes the developement in 1995 of their(Mobil 1) current generation of syn oils (Tri Synthetic). This report does not name competetors but describes oils such an com(competetor) 1, com 2, etc. Their goal of course was to maintain their product superiority. They tested vehicles at 15k drain intervals. Engine wear parts after 200K had "almost no wear" and were within the range of specs for new parts.

So, based on my research and information, I have concluded Mobil 1 is the best. It may not be, but unless I can see documentation that says something is better, I'll stick with Mobil 1. I must however confess that I am going to try Red Line 10W30. I really don't have a plan to determine if it's better than Mobil 1. It's really a curiosity issue.

taass...that's the Jan (2001) issue OF AE. Sorry.

rcarboni

Have you been to the TDI club forums?

http://www.tdiclub.com/

They are always talking about oil (especially synths) there, and would probably have some real good insight for your TDI.

The question of additives surviving could probably be answered very easily via analysis.

bluedevils

yurakm, yes, that's the article. The other day it wasn't on the web site yet, and I didn't think they have been posting those kinds of articles on the site, just the vehicle reviews.