Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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David
I would try to get to the bottom of this problem. Because if it's a misdesign that engine will go to warranty and then hold on.
I promise there is something here which Ford wishes not to discuss. If it were me I'd have some receipts for some 5W20 oil, just in case and I'd be getting the extended warranty. Remember-you heard it here!! BTW - I'm not a Ford hater.
The new Civics require the same 5W20 oil. Sounds like a pattern to me. (not a conspiracy).
I won't be surprised if Toyota does it too.
I don't know why you're so concerned about that. The difference in viscosity between 5W30 and 5W20 is not that great. The modern oils are improving with each passing year.
BTW I hear Amsoil is releasing this weight in about a couple of months. The other synthetic manufacturers will follow.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
You're kinda scaring me.
The pattern is that the Ford Focus and Escape (4 and 6 cyl), Mazda Tribute (Fords twin), Honda Civic (Accord?) REQUIRE *5W20* oil starting with the '01 models.
This fall a bunch of the redesigned models from other manufacturers is coming to the market that would possibly use the same 5W20 as a manufacturer recommended oil.
What does it have to do with your previous Ford experiences?
5W20 is marginally thinner (when is hot only) than 5W30 and increases gas mileage.
5W20 is most definitely has a different from 5W30 formulation that will not compromize the long term reliability.
And again if one is still "suspicious", he/she just can switch to the synthetic equivalent.
Do you really think that the Honda Civic designers would be willing to compromize the car's hard-earned reputation as a bullet proof vehicle by using the "inferior" 5W20 weight oil?
I think you still don't believe me. Just stop by a Honda dealership and check for yourself.
That's what my wife calls the group as well.
Going to SpringZing in Kalamazoo, MI Thursday. Some road course action, etc.
Topic based content. I have Mobil 1 5W-30 and the Motorcraft F820-S filter in my Contour SVT
TB
vadp: I believe ocelot1 is on it. You are far too trusting of corporate America/Japan. I want my engine to run like new at 100K. Also I want the extra protection of a higher viscosity when bad things happen- Like a coolant leak. Think Ford or Honda takes that into account. No, they play the numbers; couple of extra failed engines due to coolant leak/overheat-siezed engines- owners fauult right??? If you think a 20 weight will protect like a 30 weight I have some beach front land in Nevada I'll sell 'ya.
My Ford experience helped me to understand that the manufacturer doesn't always have my best interest at heart. A '74 Pinto had incorrect bearing clearances and misdesigned cams that required Fords "special" oil. Of course this only came out after I had chananged my main and big end bearings. (Myself at my cost -of course).
Second was that after 3 oil pan gasket replacements my oil pump pump screen was clogged with RTV.('88 Ranger) Could this have occurred the last time they worked on it and used gobs of stuff to fix the leak probably caused by something they couldn't find. Naaaaaaaa---they said. It's the synthetic oil you are using. Am I as trusting as I was 30 years ago? Not likely
BTW I see no trend here on the 10W20 half dozen out of hundreds of engines- not much of a trend. However based on ocelot1's information it could be. This gas crisis may derail a lot of that though. SUV's may die a painful death on their own merits.
Later,
Al
After using synthetic for almost 2years now...I really dont see any more benefit in using it and I believe I may be doing more damage using it the way I am.
I'm think of going back to dino oil and shortening my oil change intervals to about every 2k miles.
The reason being...with this turbo car, the oil gets "dirty" real fast. By 5k miles...the synthetic is black.
Is it not wiser to drive around with cleaner oil being it dino...as apposed to dirty synthetic?
I have 85k miles on the motor and have been using synthetic since 30k.
I can't afford to change synthetic oil every 2k miles...this is the reason I would want to switch oils.
I was wondering what everyones advice here might be on this idea?
Thanks..
~spyder98
I would suggest the following: Get a dual filter kit (relocation kit). This will increase the amount of oil (and cooling) for a longer life of your engine and you won't get dirty changing the oil. Keep on using good synthetic oil (Mobil 1, Valvoline, Amsoil), use a couple of quality filters (Purolator PureOne), extend your oil changes to 7.5 K and your total cost will not increase over your planned oil changes every 2K.
The added benefit is that your engine is going to last much, much longer and you won't have to crawl under your car every month.
If the long periods between changes give you nightmares, invest in oil analysis and you will see that there is nothing to worry about.
Now if you are not going to keep your car much longer it makes more (financial) sense to use inexpensive oil and filters and just change either every 3K or 3 months, whichever comes first.
The short answer is to buy a couple of oil analysis tubes. This should give you a baseline of where you are with an 85k motor, and give you a sense of what it has been like to run app 50k miles in a more hi-performance engine with synthetic oil. If you dont want or need this info, it is a no brainer to change to conventional oil in that conventional oils were probably specified for the car to begin with.
I've been using purolater pure one filters, but they don't seem to help. Plus I believe the oil filter designed for this engine is too small in the first place. But thats another story.
so in general..dirty oil can't be a good thing?
I would suggest the following: Get a dual filter kit (relocation kit). This will increase the amount of oil (and cooling) for a longer life of your engine and you won't get dirty changing the oil. Keep on using good synthetic oil (Mobil 1, Valvoline, Amsoil), use a couple of quality filters (Purolator PureOne), extend your oil changes to 7.5 K and your total cost will not increase over your planned oil changes every 2K.
The added benefit is that your engine is going to last much, much longer and you won't have to crawl under your car every month.
If the long periods between changes give you nightmares, invest in oil analysis and you will see that there is nothing to worry about.
Now if you are not going to keep your car much longer it makes more (financial) sense to use inexpensive oil and filters and just change either every 3K or 3 months, whichever comes first.
I can recall SAE 20 oil being recommended in older cars when the temp didn't go above 20F. My TR7 is at the opposite end of the spectrum, According to the Haynes manual 20W-50 is recommended. I guess they want to keep up the oil pressure for the chain tensioner on that crappy bicycle chain they use for the OHC.
A-l-l engines lived beyond 200K. 150K was exceeded in all cases. Statistically it is highly-highly probable that the mean life of a GM engins is thus higher than 200K.
My assessment is that either GM engines are superior to the latest Ford generation (V-Tech-2) or the 20 wt oil has decreased engine life. I wish I knew what the service life of a latest Honda Engine is.
Comments vadp???
My best guess would be to use syn 20 wt with a couple quarts of 30 wt.
Oh, and I would allow extra time letting the vehicle idle on startup and drive it easy until it gets up to temp.
Just my thoughts hopt it helps you decide. You could talk to Ford also, but you'll probably get nowhere unless you get to one of the engine designers who will spill some beans.
Al
Wouldn't it make sense that they would want to get more oil between parts rather than less? My thought process here is that the thinner oil forms a weaker barrier, so an increase in the oil film thickness would be needed to give proper protection.
What do you think?
Vehicle manufactures are reluctant to recommend syn's for some reasons: Probably pressure from oil companies, less engine life( good for them with repairs, quicker replacement, etc.) There are probably others and they are stronger than their desire to raise fleet milage. BTW that's .6 miles per gallon. Your assumption could be right. Who knows??
agt_cooper: Good thought, but just because you make clearances larger, doesn't mean the film will be thicker. There will be more oil in the space (but that is not the film) When the equipment runs the surfaces shift and the points of heaviest load are kept apart by this film. The overall difference between the journal and bearing diameter is smaller for the equipment designed for the thinner oil. In short-the load and speed along with the viscosity determine the separation of parts. I probably didn't explain that very well.
Spyder, don't trust the look of the oil. Dark oil isn't necessarily harmful and it could merely mean that the synthetic is cleaning old deposits from the inside of your motor. But, if the dark oil really bothers you, do a 3-4 week duration oil change followed by another one. A great, safe way to clean the inside of your engine ... for about $8-10.
I agree with the folks who are saying the 5W20 oil is designed to appease the EPA and lower Honda's and Ford's CAFE standard. That's Corporate Average Fuel Economy. I remember a mechanic telling me that many internal engine tolerances have gotten LOOSER instead of tighter in the past 10-20 years!
I don't know why they don't simply recommend a synthetic oil. Perhaps potential owners will think the cars are too difficult or expensive to maintain? Perhaps the EPA won't allow them to use syntheic oil in the testing for CAFE standards as there is no assurance that most owners will keep using the more expensive oil? It's fairly easy to get people to use a given weight ... but the average person will balk at using an oil that costs 3 times as much.
I think the auto manufacturers know that worn out bearings and rings aren't what "do-in" the average car so they have no problem in specifying an oil that will only give 150K miles of average life instead of 200-225K miles.
If it were my car, I'd use 5W20 for the first couple of oil & filter changes and then when the car hit 10K miles, I'd switch over to a 5W30 synthetic.
--- Bror Jace
Bror-I think you may be correct on those clearances on new cars- higher bearing speeds require greater clearances for heat dissipation.
I also read that the oil change interval on Ford's latest engines was supposed to be 10,000 mile intervals??? I wonder what changed this,
Bror-I think you hit the nail on the head with the syn recommendations. The milage would be based on syn which Joe Sixpack in his infinite wouldn't use. Also as you said the same Joe Sixpack wouldn't buy that $30,000 vehicle that required syn-he'd buy the $35,000 that did not require syn. Dumbing of America I guess.
Even though RedLine and others suggests to make a switch to synthetic not sooner than after you put 3000-miles on odometer, I would go even further and follow brorjace's advice.
pulgomaus: Pennzoil is a cheaper oil to manufacture it is not a PAO oil like Mobil, Amsoil, Valvoline or Quaker State. Pennzoil claims it has superior High Temperature Properties compared to PAO's (of course they would)
For those new to this discussion, I feel that the first couple of oil changes should be done with conventional oil to allow the engine to fully break in before switching the the really slippery (synthetic) stuff. I use 10,000 miles as a gneral guidleine. This may be unnecessary but I prefer to be on the safe side with my new motors. adc100 starts running synthetic in a new car ASAP.
achenator, the farther south you go, the less comfortable I'd be using that thin, thin, 5W20 motor oil ... even if it IS a semi-synthetic like I've heard some say. a 5W30 synthetic should flow just as well in most temperatures and will resist breaking down much better over time. If you use the 5W20 Motorcraft (or other brand) oil, I'd never, never, NEVER leave it in my car for more than 4,000 miles. My Dad just changed his Mercury's oil and before him the dealership did it and I'm guessing they used 5W20 oil. The warm stuff that came out of his Mercury had the consistency of heavily stained/colored water. It's unnerving ...
--- Bror Jace
I switched to synthetic at 11 miles, after getting home in my new Toyota Echo (Valvoline Synpower). At last check (3500 miles) oil is almost as clear as new, NO oil consumption!
I plan on using only Valvoline (SYN) for this car, doing changes every 5K.
The Pennzoil I bought today will be used in my Caprice, which has 210000 miles, uses less than half a quart between changes (every 6000 miles).
It probably will last another 200000 miles.
By the way, for this car I've always used Pennzoil (I know, no PAO oil but pretty good anyway).
Take a peek:
http://www.valvoline.com/products/products.asp?cat=1&Product=53
--- Bror Jace
I switched my Camry over to synthetic at 1000 miles and it now has 133,000. New Buick will be switched at first normal change interval. Ha, received a notice from the dealer for the 3000 mile service, had to write them back as manual has no such animal in it, this car has the oil change indicator light which the manual says will usually come on between 5000-7,500 miles. Typical dealer maintenance wish list to keep the service bays full!