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Ocelot1...good call, could be the grey container. Actually I like it (grey container). Green cap looks best so I use the 10W-30. Anyway, I applaud anyone who takes the trouble to think about things and experiment with things. Keep it up, even though you don't know what the conclusion is. Also I still use the Marvel M O. I don't put it in the crankcase though, just the gas. I believe it gives me about a mile per gallon.
Later,
Al
rcarboni, thanks for the link.
Mark
Interesting about Mobil stating they recommend the severe service or one year. Well I know of no manufacturer that has a severe service over 5000 miles and very, very few people drive less then 5000 miles a year so Mobil is recommending pretty frequent oil changes. That is disappointing but the entire world has gone to CYA.
Thanks,
Al
There was a test report floating around the forums that was done by Lubrication Engineers. Although they found their oil to be best (DUH), Amsoil did perform better than the rest. Anyone see this report?
Air filters, OEM are the best by far. I tried the oil/foam, not only did they fall apart from the heat after 2-3 years the oil analysis showed no difference over the OEM paper. And a pain to clean and re-oil. Purolator and Fram did terrible.
Oil filters, I use Amsoil almost exclusively and analysis has shown them better then OEM. However, Mobil 1 and Pure One also great and analysis has backed that up. Actually, I feel the Mobil 1 filter is better then Amsoil but Amsoil has done fine by me and the Mobil 1 is much more expensive. Plus, on a few cars I can use a larger Amsoil filter (capacity, canister is larger then the OEM) whereas I cannot find that compatibility info for Mobil 1 or Pure One
And could you go into some detail regarding how many cars you've had the analysis done on, and what your oil change intervals have been like?
And what kind of service do these cars endure - mostly severe or mostly highway?
I know this has been asked before in general, but where do you get your analysis done? Do all oil analysis services evaluate the breakdown of additives - which seems to be of most concern when it comes to syn oil from what I've been reading here on this board?
Thanks.
I use Amsoil 10W30 in 4 cars, 0W30 in one that calls for a 5W30.
Over 9 years I have had analysis done on 9 different cars, basically at least once a year on each. Other then one company car which is traded every 60,000 miles (3 years) we keep the others unless accident kills one off. Oldest a 92 Camry 133,000 switched at 1000 miles. 96 Mystique purchased and switched at 30,000 (now 59,000) , 97 Isuzu Rodeo purchased and switched at 57,000 (now 61,000), 2000 Buick switched at 4,400, and a 97 Mitsubishi 3000GT twin turbo purchased at 5,400 miles it was on Mobil 1, I switched it at 5,400 to Amsoil only has 15,000 in total. Previous synthetic uses were 92 Ford, 91 Corsica (switched at 49,000 killed by accident at 128,000), 95 Maxima and a 98 Maxima. All have synthetic tranny fluid and 3000 has the only Redline fluid in the gearbox. The RedLine gear oil truly out performs Amsoil in that car.
Okay, Camry does filter and oil at 7,500, Mystique oil once a year, filter 6 months
Isuzu, will go to 12,000 with filter at 6 months but just purchased. Buick will be the same 12,000. The Twin turbo I have been 5000 but may go to 7,500 as analysis looks great. My two previous Maximas went 12,000 with a lot of highway, new Buick highway also. Others mostly commuters in stoplight suburbia. The 3000 is a toy, I always drive it at least 10 miles once I start it but only drive it once or twice a week.
Oil Analysis, I use a company called Analysts Inc out of Hoffman Estates IL 847 884-7877 or 800 222-0071. Cost me $9 but I know it should be more as they have me on an old Amsoil schedule before Amsoil dropped them as a lab. Amsoil has own lab now.
Analysis gives me iron, chromium, nickel, aluminum, copper, tin, silver, titanium, silicon, boron, sodium, potassium,molybdenum,phosphorus,zinc,calcium,barium,magnesium, antimony and vanadium. Most of the last half are additives. Gives a parts per million not an indication of whether the additives are depleted. However, if iron count is high and silicon high a problem exists as wear is occurring as shown by the iron so additives may be down also. Remember, analysis is TREND ANALYSIS, one sample means nothing, it is trends you are looking for. New Buick came back (original factory fill oil) with huge silicon 173 ppm but new seals are made of silicon and this does not mean dirt, silicon should be under 30ppm normally Copper was also huge but a new car still breaking in.
Hope I answered your questions.
By: Richard Ries
Reproduced with permission of Equipment World
The temptation to compare oil analysis with blood analysis done by a medical professional is over-whelming. Both processes seek to determine the condition of the system, whether mechanical or human. Both use non invasive techniques to discover little problems before they become big problems. Both help design maintenance programs specific to their host systems. Both are remarkably sophisticated procedures that provide data easily understood by anyone with even elementary knowledge of the field.
The big difference is in the primary goals they address. Blood work helps a patient maintain quality of life. Oil analysis drives down costs. Period.
Shirley Minges of Lubricon, an independent testing laboratory, tells the story of a client who had filed Chapter 11. She was confident the firm could emerge from bankruptcy and decided to continue working with the client in the interim.
One of the client's goals was to reduce out-of-frame overhauls by 10 percent fleet wide, which the company estimated would save $8 million. "We developed a program," Minges says, "that combined routine testing and predictive maintenance testing." (The latter is more frequent and comprehensive.) "Over the next two years, the actual extension of life span was greater than 10 percent. It was more like 30 percent or 40 percent."
Larry Czernik, senior development engineer at Caterpillar, cites similar success with a customer of one of its dealers. That customer realized an eight-times return in reduced maintenance costs for every dollar spent on oil analysis.
So compelling are the money-saving advantages, Dick Heinzelman of Citgo calls oil analysis "a no-brainer. As high as operating costs are now, you can't afford not to do it."
These savings aren't the result of a single aspect of oil analysis, but rather of a broad spectrum of advantages it provides. Basically, those advantages can be lumped into two categories: optimization of fluids, and more intelligent maintenance decisions.
In the past, most fluids were used in accordance with the original equipment manufacturer's recommendations. Occasionally maintenance personnel, motivated by personal experience, would deviate from OEM guidelines. Such scheduled maintenance was really seat-of-the-pants maintenance, according to Minges. "This presumes every piece of equipment that is identical will do the same thing at the same time for the same reason. It doesn't work that way.
Given the incredibly diverse operating conditions to which equipment is exposed, from the tundra to the rain forest to the desert, it's a wonder manufacturers can come up with any schedule at all. Factor in the human element - how well equipment is maintained and how hard it's pushed - and those schedules are barely adequate. Notes Minges, "OEM service intervals may be the only convenient, practical way [to accommodate this variety], but that doesn't make it the right way; it doesn't make it the best way."
And as for the well-trained eye of the seasoned mechanic, it has limitations, too. "What if the viscosity is down?" asks John Wagner of Shell. "It could be fuel dilution. But it could be that the [viscosity index] is cracking. That will be indicated by certain tests."
By monitoring oil performance, an equipment owner can optimize machine use. In fact, the vast majority of people engaged in an oil analysis program cite extended drain intervals as a top goal. This reflects not only the costs of fluids, but also the increasing cost and problems of disposing of used fluids.
Intervals aren't extended in every case. For equipment operated in particularly demanding conditions, oil analysis may indicate intervals should be reduced. But this still represents a savings to the owner by preventing catastrophic failure and extending time between overhauls.
Fluids also can be optimized through side-by-side comparisons, or by comparing analyses from the same equipment when trying a new product Which oil results in lower wear? Which hydraulic fluid better resists oxidation? (Here's another comparison to medicine: Just as a doctor may request tests on different body fluids, so might a mechanic use analysis on fluids from a crankcase, hydraulic system, transmission, final drive or cooling system.)
Whether the goal is to optimize drain intervals or to evaluate a different product, oil analysis is required to safeguard equipment. As Czernik notes, "How are you going to monitor [the impact of any change made] to see how it's affecting internal components? Without oil analysis, you're just shooting in the dark."
Fluid analysis also saves money, because maintenance can be done on a more informed basis. Like other service intervals, those for inspections and overhauls are an OEM's best guess. in some cases, they may be too long. Often, they're too frequent. "OEMs err to the side of caution," says Minges, "and that drives costs up by requiring too-frequent maintenance."
The direct costs from this are obvious. There are also indirect costs. Any time a compartment is opened up, risks arise. "You're likely to put more damage into the system than you'll ever get out by inspection," Minges continues. "Most come from airborne contaminants and human error."
By monitoring a system through oil analysis, overhauls can be keyed to the actital condition of the system. The idea is to obtain maximum component life, scheduling replacement when a component has run its life cycle, but before it fails. This results in reduced maintenance costs and lower risk of catastrophic failure.
Not only can maintenance be done at the best time for the equipment, but also it can be done at the best time for the owner. As Wagner explains, Downtime can be scheduled in a more profitable way than the haphazard, on-the-go, run-all-the-time way. The advantage [of oil analysis] is pure cost, and downtime is a big factor."
When an overhaul is indicated, oil analysis will help the mechanic perform it efficiently. It will reduce the chance that a part is overlooked in the process, or that a part with adequate service life remaining is unnecessarily replaced.
Oil analysis also helps resale value. It shows potential buyers the equipment has been properly maintained and gives an accurate picture of its current condition. Buyers recognize the value of this information. As Czernik points out, "If I were going to buy a piece of equipment, I'd ask for those records. I'd want to see the history."
It's clear the benefits of oil analysis are equal to many times the typical per-analysis cost of $6 or $7. (Prices vary depending on volume and on what level of analysis is requested.) What's not clear is who gets these benefits. Everyone who participates in an analysis program?
Not quite. To realize the maximum gain from such a program, an equipment owner must commit to four things:
Amsoil does compare there oil to Mobil 1 at least using the 4 ball wear scar test. I agree it is a bit of marketing
Also provioded that I failed to mention is fuel contamination as a % of volume as well as total solids as a % of volume and water as a % of volume. Most results are not constants, that is they should very with the mileage of the oil tested, ie: iron is 10 ppm at 3,000 miles but 30 ppm at 9,000, well that is normal but silicon is a constant, over a specified amount oil should probably be changed and the fuel, total solids and water as a % of volume are also constants as they indicate that the oil may be too contaminated to lubricate properly.
Is it worth it, probably not, have I ever detected a problem using it, no but have not had an enigne problem in past 9 years either. Who knows!!!!!
Let's assume for a moment that everyone follows the severe service schedule in their owner's manual just to be on the "safe side." I mean, if the guy haulin' a two ton trailer can safely change his oil at 3000 miles, then why can't Joe Commuter use the same service intervals and get BETTER results, right? Then, can anyone claim that they had an engine failure due to oil (petroleum or synthetic) on a properly maintained, mechanically healthy engine? Simply: no.
So, this ongoing argument is the result of three trains of thought:
The first is the car owner who wants the ultimate protection for their engine. The owner who wants his engine not only to last 300,000 miles, but run like new for a good part of its useful life.
Next is the abuser. This guy revs the heck out of his engine, autocrosses on the weekends, or just thinks that engine coolant is optional and decides to use synthetic oil to make up for a dry radiator.
Finally on my list is the economist. This person is more interested in saving money. He likes the thinner oils that grant better gas mileage. But, more importantly, the idea of going 1 billion miles between oil changes is enticing.
I guess there is one more synthetic oil fanatic. It's the person who changes the oil at the "optimal" time. Oil stays in their crankcase as long as it can and not a second longer. The oil provides as much useful life as you paid for. Only, this fellow busted 40 bucks on oil analyses between oil changes. So, he really didn't save any money, but the record books look good, and the optimal timing satisfied his obsessive compulsive need.
But wait! Why can't we have the best of all worlds? Why can't we just follow the owner's manual and change according to that? Or, if you're feeling frisky, extended the drain interval 50 to 100 percent? All the evidence in the world says it would be alright to do. Hey, it's 5 quarts of motor oil - not 10,000 gallons of gas turbine lubricant.
Here's my plan for a healthier life AND a long lasting car. I change my oil three times a year. But, some whiz kid told me I only needed to change it twice a year. This kid got me thinking, though: "If I only had to change my oil twice a year, and he IS right, then I'm throwing away $25 a year on a pointless oil change." Still not fully trusting him, I decide to stick with the 3Xs a year, but will skip desert when I dine out for the next four months. VOILA! Next thing I know I'm rolling in cash and my waistline is smaller. I can have it all!
Using Amsoil Series 2000 0-w30 synthetic -
** Over a 1-year period,
** assuming 20,000-24,000 miles on vehicle,
** with 3K oil and filter changes for conventional oil,
** and 1 change with Amsoil oil and 5K filter changes:
Conventional would require 35 quarts of oil and 7 filters. At $2.00/qt for the oil and $5.00 for each filter, the total cost per year for conventional is
$105
Amsoil would require 7 quarts of oil and 4 filters. At $8.10/qt for the oil and $8.00 for each filter (AC Delco Ultraguard filters), the total cost for synthetic is
$88.70
So you see, I have $16 left to spend on analysis if I choose, or just pocket the savings. In my case then, analysis does not cost more. Your savings may vary.
It's gives us a warm fuzzy feeling to think that by extending our drain intervals we are saving baby seals from assured death. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but the few people who change their oil one time less per year (or, whatever) because of results gathered from oil analysis aren't going to make a difference. If you're just curious about oil composition at given in-service periods, then, giddyup. But, from an objective standpoint, is it really making a noticable difference in the World, the life of your car, or your pocket book? There ought to be a label on the side of the sampling package that reads: "For entertainment purposes only."
Don't worry, I have very thick skin. I DO think you read too much into my last post or two ... when I'd rather you have looked at my last 20-30 posts before making generalizations about me. Like I said, from what I see, we agree more than disagree on this stuff.
The point is we don't know how 5W20 will protect a car past 100K or 150K miles ... and we won't get typical, real-world results from users of that stuff for another several years. In the meantime, do you trust the engineers that are balancing EPA concerns with extreme durability to come up with a perfect solution? I know I don't. Most original owners won't keep a car that long and some will be stolen, damaged in accidents, etc ... so if the engineers are going to ere one way or the other, I'd expect durability to be compromised ... even if only slightly.
I also don't consider my car to be driven 'typically.' It's a Civic Coupe DX 1.5L. I have a K&N intake on it as well as an aftermarket exhaust and both of these have improved the car's top-end ... which I exercise frequently. I don't know what kind of sustained speeds this car is supposed to be able to handle but it is not uncommon for me to be cruising at 80mph (4,500-5,000 rpms) for the better part of an hour or more at a time. I feel I need an exceptionally tough motor oil that can take the stress of those higher RPMs without breaking down and thinning out. The fact that I only have to change my oil & filter 3 times per year ... instead of 4-6 with dino oil ... is just gravy. As for cost, it's a non-issue ... just like you said. In a straight comparison, the synthetic costs $10-20 more. If you adjust for the fact that you will get a couple more MPGs with the more exotic stuff and you'll have top-off your crankcase less frequently, they are almost an exact wash. I even set up a spreadsheet figuring this out once ... as a way to familiarize myself with the new software. As the price of gas goes upo and up, getting just one more MPG can be significant ... about $25 per year if you drive 15,000 miles each year with gas at $1.50 per gallon.
And as for the owner's manual, they have been horribly dumbed down in the past 10-15 years. Sure, they are an important source of information but they are usually written for idiots and women who know NOTHING about cars. You're probably OK if you follow the advice contained in it ... but I'm convinced there's a better solution to most automotive problems if you take the time, do the research, etc ...
I've never done oil analysis ... but I might (once) just to see what happens if I leave Redline (or some other synthetic) in my engine for more than 6-7,000 miles. Individuals who do it often are kidding themselves if they think they are actually saving money in the long run. That could only be true of commercial fleets of large-capacity diesels where oil changes are fairly expensive.
And as for adding new gadgets or technology to cars to make them better, I'm always late coming to the party. Once things are proven to work reliably over time I'm all for them ... but I wanna see them work first. Even fuel injection, when it was first introduced, had it's share of teething problems. As for 5W20 it's unproven in real-world situations and I'm going to avoid it until someone can show me that it protects a car as well or better than the slightly thicker stuff.
As for wide-spread oils like 5W40, these are additive intensive and I think the Valvoline guy was playing it straight when he said the additives tend to start to break down after 4,000 miles. This is true of most oils ... not just Valvoline. Anyway, this is not as bad as it sounds but you'll have to top off the car more after that point with fresh oil. Personally, I think stretching things that far (10,000 miles) is pushing it. I MIGHT stretch the Redline oil in my Civic almost 9,000 miles next year ... but it'll be a car that's been driven hard with over 120,000 miles on the odometer. I'm not as picky about it as I was during the first few years I owned it.
Lastly, my subjective analysis of the thinned-out 5W20 oil was not something I was betting my life on. It's just that this is a classic sign of oil that's losing its viscosity through sheer and thermal breakdown. My brother had a 1968 Dodge Charger and he used to see the oil pressure drop down to zero after lifting off the gas pedal and he immediately pulled into the driveway and changed his oil. This sort of thing used to be conventional wisdom. Perhaps this newer 5W20 oil (which I've heard is semi-synthetic) can still protect when it's thinned out ... but someone's gonna have to show me some serious evidence of this before I believe it.
--- Bror Jace
of the engine,transmision or whatever is being tested. Say you engine oil
was tested and found the oil had high silica and chrome and aluminum content=your
air filter is not filtering the air very well(K&N).Your Has high brass=might be the main
and rod bearing are failing? Antifreeze in the oil=might have head gasket leaking.ect
Steve
<<<Severe-hydrocracked lubricating oils could make all this possible - at about half the cost of synthetic oils.>>> Blah, blah, blah...
And now go to a store and check for how much Castrol sells its Synerlec. Such a rip-off.
Later,
Al
On synthetic oil: I have used Mobil 1 in my '96 Intrepid since it had 11K, changing every 5-6K. I now have a sticking lifter and various loose engine sounds in cold weather (at 85K). Trust me, I'll never waste my money on a synthetic again unless I move to Alaska. I'd go back to Castrol dinosaur if I could be certain the wisdom about oil leaks was only a myth.
Now, on the other hand, are the sticking lifter and other engine sounds a result of the oil failing to perform as it was designed? 85Kmi certainly seems early for those kind of engine problems. This would lead me to believe that there is/are other causes of your problems.
With any engine design there exist periodic component failure. The engine maker hopes that the statistical breakdown is low, but sometimes moron assembler does something incorrectly, or a manufacturing flaw is to blame. Sometimes these problems show up early and are nothing more than a hassle covered under warranty rather than a costly out of pocket repair. That the problems encountered by dhughes3 and armtdm showed up at 85Kmi doesn't neccessarily implicate the oil as the cause.
dhughes3- one word for you "Chrysler".
I have known 3 people with Mitsu 4-cylinder cars ... and all were pretty good runners, but they consumed oil regularly (unlike my Hondas and some others). So, your criticism of the Mitsu 3.0 seems reasonable to me.
My father ran Mobil dino in his '94 Mercury 4.6L V8 and at just over 100,000 miles, a noise appeared suddenly which we both agreed was a stuck lifter. He switched to a synthetic blend at the next oil change and the noise instantly disappeared, never to return.
Of course, ANY fresh oil & filter change might have eliminated the problem.
>;^)
--- Bror Jace
We then switched to Volvo (which Ford now owns), and when we were in the market for a full-sized van a few months ago, we ended up with a new Ford Econoline E-150. No one else could match the price !!
It took me over 10 years to get over my problem with Ford, and I also said "never", but yet when the price difference between the Ford and Chevy van was in the $5,000 range, I jumped at the chance to buy the Ford (which I have been using "Mobil 1" in, since birth)
armtdm could tell you more. Good oil? I use Mobil 1, If I had to switch I'd go with Redline, Amsoil, Valvoline, Quaker State. Others may not be "pure syn"- (like Castrol, Pennzoil) I generally go around once per year on my vehicles.
With synthetic I extended the interval to 6,000 miles. At 3,000 I exchanged the existing filter for a premium one (Mobile 1) and drove another 3000 miles. I added only a pint of oil where I normally used 2 quarts over 6,000 miles. The oil was even a lighter color when changed than conventional at 3,000.
It starts MUCH easier in winter. I'm happy I made the switch.