Synthetic motor oil

div2

I switched our new-to us 1997 CPO 528i to Mobil 1 15W-50 at 46000 miles. Did the same on two other bimmers as well as a Nissan Pathfinder. NO problems. I have noticed that using the proprietary 5W-30 synthetic will cause some BMWs to use oil at the rate of 1 quart @3000-4000 miles. My 5er has not used a drop of 15W-50 in over 7500 miles.

dhughes3

I haven't read every post, so maybe it's been mentioned somewhere, but has anyone used Schaeffer's synthetic oil? They are a relatively unknown company, but they do a pretty large business with trucking companies. I got on their website and they post specs on all their oils, and the specs for the synthetic are comparable to those for Mobil 1 or Amsoil.
The reason I am interested is because they have, besides a 5W-30 synthetic, a 5W-30 synthetic with moly added. A well known guru, Bob Sikorsky (author of "Break it in Right" and weekly newpaper column "Drive it Forever") has stated that it is the only additive he endorses as having any value.

armtdm

This is an additive in most oils and it shows up on my oil analysis and I use Amsoil! Usually under 5 parts per million but it depends.

Never heard of the company in question, you did not give their web site of the cost of the product!

armtdm

I read the site, confused as to whether the oil is petroleum with moly added and or a blend. It never mentions a true synthetic anywhere on the site. Also, only one multi grade oil offered and that is 5W30. I sent them an e-mail to clarify my interpretations of their site. Will see.

dhughes3

I think if you look at item 156 you'll find it. It is a true synthetic, with a PAO base. Cost-about avg or a little more for synthetic @ $17.67/gal, available only in 5 gal. containers. Works out to $4.42/qt. Problem is, how do you get 5 qts. out for an oil change without making a mess! 5 qt containers are hard to find.

viperrulz

So, any of you all use Mobil 1's synthetic grease? How does it compare to the cheap stuff?

dgsg

I have a 10 year old Acura with 130,000 miles which uses 5-30 Mobil 1, and uses about 1qt of oil every 5,000 miles. As far as putting in syntheic after dino oil, not a problem. I would also suggest the use of a Mobil 1 filter and 7,500-10,000 between oil changes. My Acura goes 7,500 between changes and my old MR-2 which I sold with 190,000 miles went 10,000 miles between oil changes.

adc100

Why would you take that penalty in fuel efficiency and probably a hotter running engine. A 30 wt syn is more than adequate for anything you are likely to encounter.

div2

Simple answer; the owners manual on the 5er specifies 15W-40 for ambient temps above 0F while the 3er calls for 15W-50 above 14F. Mobil tech data states that their 15W-50 can be used wherever 15W-40 is specified. FWIW, I didn't detect any fuel economy benefit on the 3er when I switched it to 5W-30; I did detect increased oil consumption...

adc100

Maybe the 15W50 is apropriate for the 3er. But I would still switch to the 10W30 in the others. There's got to be a milage penalty-its the law of physics. And in cold weather the extra time taking to get the oil where you need it is important. If your filters are vertical, then its not as bad. If they are horizontal and you hear noise on startup-beware. Just my rambling thoughts.

Later,
Al

dpwestlake

Look in parts stores that cater to trucks. Truck shops usually use bulk oil and have containers with flex spouts that hold 4 qts (the "add" mark on most big diesels).

Another idea is to check the automobilia section of antique shops or flea markets and look for those galvenized containers that were used when all motor oil was sold in bulk.

div2

FWIW, the Pathfinder does get 5W-30 synthetic. I've had no problems with oil pressure on startup using the 15W-50 year round in KY. The filters on late model BMWs are paper elements mounted in a canister assembly accessed from the topside of the engine.

tlindeman1

Well, the new Civic is closing on 2000 miles and, despite the quality concerns expressed elsewhere, is running great. Mileage is consistently close to 40 mpg. Honda customer service and the dealers are adamant about NOT changing the factory oil out until 5,000 miles. They claim that there are 1. "special additives in the factory oil to aid break-in or 2. "special" synthetic oil in the engine from the factory (the above info. depending on the source). Everything in me says get the factory oil out before 5,000 miles and switch to a good synthetic and premium filter (as I've done with other cars) but I don't want to compromise the break-in. Also, if I stick to the recommended 5W20 I will have to order some Amsoil as they're the only company currently making synthetic in that weight. One of their reps. said I could use a 0W30 or 5W30 synthetic without a problem...Honda says only 5W20. I'm trying to decide whether to wait or switch sooner than 5,000 miles...any thoughts?

adc100

pretty beaten up on either this or the engine oil forum. But anyway, you'll have to do what you see fit. If it were mine I would change it and use Mobil 10W30- That's probably bad advice.

armtdm

I recently changed the oil in a new Buick at 4400 to synthetic and had it analyzed, could easily have gone 5000. So, go the 5 and then switch. Stay with the 5W20 Amsoil and see how it goes.

pulgo

adc100 is right. Mobil 10W30 will be fine, 5W30 even better. Don't believe the stories about break-in oil. Why do you think that every European performance car and most of the others come factory filled with "normal" synthetic oil?

brorjace

... we don't know what friction modifiers go into factory-fill oils. They could add something to lower the coefficient of friction ... like the additive used in limited-slip differentials.

The dealerships have NO REASON to turn away your service business for the first 5,000 miles ... unless the stories about break-in oil are true.

--- Bror Jace

pulgo

Wouldn't such a break in oil be similar to synthetic oil?

bobistheoilguy

i thought you might like to know a little more about the schaeffers motor oils you were asking about.. i have be using schaeffers over 6yrs and finally became a lubricant specialist, doing training seminars and teaching lubrication in minor university's here in florida.

 as for the moly in amsoil, your correct, last time i looked i saw about 5ppms of mos2 in the 20w50 amsoil., in schaeffers the basic ppms of moly is approx 130 to 159ppm's. the mos2 is one of 2 ep/antiwear/friction modifiers in the schaeffers lubricants.

 what schaeffers has done is designed thier synthblend's with such high quaility base stocks and robust additive package, that they hold up as well as most all full synthetics. that is one of the main reasons you wont see much in the way of a full synthetic on thier site. ok amsoil guys, i know, it can't be as good as yours, well, if you want there is a company that does indepedent testing with off the shelf products at a cost of $10.00 per report that will give you actual numbers. i would suggest you order those from VOXPOX and see for yourself. thats one of the things i did. and as i speak i have got one of the most advid amsoil believers testing the schaeffers oil and so far has found out some real interesting things for himself. once his scientific tests have been done, he will be posting so others can see.

anyway, schaeffers been in the oil biz since 1830's. ??? oil wasn't around to the 1840's. well sorry, been in the lubricating biz, animal fats and candle waxes back then. i figured they must know a little somthing about oil by now, don't you agree? anyway as a member of STLE and having done many years of research and learning about lubricants i have settled on this company and what they have.

 mobil1's grease.... i have some interesting information about grease and motor oils in general and if you want go to my web site which i recently started and will be working on for quite a while. there i have some good information about lubrication and hope to enhance it continually. i also have a forum on oil, FAQ's (which i'm slowly working on adding to everyday) classified section and of course basic general FYI stuff about oil.

enjoy your comments, and thanks for your time.

bob in jville fl.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

armtdm

I e-mailed them about four days ago asking a few questions and if they had any independent lab results and the name of the lab.

No reply to date!

namfflow

If any additives are added to the OEM oil it would NOT be for providing extra lubrication.

Simply put the reason the OEMs tell you to leave the oil in til the 1st recommended oil change is because the fine metal particles circulating around the engine are acting as a lapping compound to help finish the cylinder walls so that the rings will seat properly and minimize blow by. By changing the oil out too soon you actually increase the risk of future engine problems.

Basically a high detergent oil is used to better suspend the particles so they can do a finer lapping job.

newcar31

Where did you hear/read this? The reason why I ask is because I changed my oil about 3 times on my brand new car before 3000 miles, the first time at 400 miles. When my parents bought a brand new Volvo about 10 years ago, the owners manual said to change the oil the first time at 1500 miles. I hope I didn't permanently screw my engine up. I also just switched to Mobil 1 10W30 at 4000 miles.

namfflow

I learned this many years ago when I used to build engines. I used to build racing engines for use on the NHRA circuit and the Stock Car circuit.

Machinists who build engines have known this for years.

Think about it this way, you can machinne an item to a certain precicion. After that it takes unusal steps top get it finer. It would be way too costly to hand lap all the engines. In the long run it works better this way because you can "break in" the engine to your style of driving (within reason).

You will find references to this in most basic texts on engine building used in college auto tech classes.

I doubt that you would permanently screw up the engine doing the oil change sooner. You just wouldn't get the best ring sealing therefore engding up with higher oil consumption and premature valve seal failure. How premature? Who knows, hard to estimate but definitly sooner than if the engine was properly broke in.

bwiebe

I have heard the same thing regarding "seating". I have also heard that I should wait to convert to synthetic oil til the breakin is complete. I have a 2000 Solara with almost 10,000 miles and due for the second oil change. At what mileage should I consider changing from dyno to syn? Will I see any improvement in gas mileage?

armtdm

The ole breaking in an engine is as old as the ice age, except when the engine is being rebuilt and when you are building your racing engines. Factory machining is just so much more precise then a rebuild and there is no need to worry about break in oils or proper seating. I too have switched enignes over to synthetics quickly with no problems, and how does one address the Corvettes and Porsches that come off the factory line with synthetics in them?????

namfflow

You will note that I have said nothing about switching from Dino to Synthetic Oil. I have only stated to keep the oil in for the recommended time. I won't get into the Dino vs Synth debate only because I do not have enough experience chemically and there are enough advantages/disadvantages of both.

Even in the Viper and Vette with Mobile 1 there is still a break in period and a recommendation as to how long to keep the OEM oil in. Since I do not own either one I do not have the manual so I don't know what they specify.

Even with the vast improvements in today's machining, there is still some ring sealing that needs to occur. There is no way to substitute any machine or hand operation to the fine lapping you will get with microscopic metal particles in the oil going between the rings and the walls with the pressure the rings have. This wear will give virtually a perfect seal.

Again I am not saying changing early will cause any damage. just that changing early will not give you the extended life you think it will give you. You may actually shorten the life to some degree. How much is too subjective to say.

brorjace

I agree with what you said and that's what I've been talking about for a while here and other places.

Mobil has (had?) two different formulations of their Mobil 1 5W30 listed in the MSDS sheet section of their site. I suspect one was modified to have a higher coefficient of friction to allow proper break-in (seating of the rings, etc ...).

As I've said before. Your motor MIGHT live a perfectly happy and long life without this stuff left in for a long time ... but I'd leave it in as long as they say (or real close) just to be safe.

--- Bror Jace

pulgo

is detrimental to engine life because of improper ring seating, how do I explain that my Toyota Echo does NOT use ANY oil after having changed to Valvoline Synthetic at a mileage of 17(brand new). I drive 80 miles each day, most of it at 70 MPH (engine gets hot enough), so no one can argue that the oil is thinning and therefore no consumtion is being detected.

adc100

I wouldn't get too excited about that one.

pulgo

Please explain.

pulgo

My previous truck had 340K miles on it, always used Mobil 1 and needed 1 pint every 8k miles.
This amount never changed over the life of the vehicle and my neighbour who now own this truck has since put another 120k miles on it and it is still in great condition. This truck was switched to syn oil at 20 miles!

adc100

I wasn't referring to your post. I was referring to the metal lapping theory. I happen to agree with your thoughts. I also changed in my Sentra at 33 miles (Mobil 1) I changed again at 4K and couldn't really detect any oil usage. I also think its somewhat the luck of the draw on what you get and how hard the vehicle was reved up getting it on and off the car carrier.

yurakm

I believe that most modern engines do not use the special break-in oil. Have two recent GM cars, 98 Malibu and 2000 Regal - the oil was not mentioned in the car manual (however, the break-in period was mentioned). Do not remember reading about such an oil in the 88 Taurus manual either.

Most probably, with these cars oil can be changed immediately after purchase, either to dyno or synthetic. On the other hand, it would not hurt to switch to synthetic after 5k, or 10k. Just in case, personally, I decided to use dyno oil /cheap filters / short intervals for the first changes with the Regal, than switch to synthetic. Changed oil at 2k and 5k, and will switch to Mobil-1 and Pure-One filter soon, at 8k.

On the other hand, according to the first message of the tread, if I remember it right, the Honda(?) manual explicitly state not replacing the factory oil before explicitly indicated mileage. I would not second-guess the manufacturer.

bobistheoilguy

armtdm, ask me what you want to know i'll get back with you on it. as for the lab, schaeffers has thier own chemist and lab tech's and use state of the art equipment.
bob in jville fl
www.bobistheoilguy.com

rcarboni

Most newer engines built now are reducing piston ring tension to achieve higher efficiencies. I would think that for these engines a break-in period would not be required.

I change factory oil at 500 miles, change again at 2500, and begin extended drains at 5000. However, I've never had a vehicle that said to maintain the factory oil for any length of time. I think that if the manual states this, I would heed the advice if only to keep within warranty.

newcar31

My manual doesn't say anthing about keeping the factory oil in either. The only company that I have heard of that recommends to keep the factory oil in the car is VW. When I was looking at them, they said to keep the oil in for the first 5000 miles. I always thought the reason why they said this is because they offer free maintenance for the first 20,000 miles with 5000 mile oil change intervals.

armtdm

It appears from the reply pasted below that these are not 100% synthetic oils but that the "best' may be a blend. I specifically asked if any were synthetic! Perhaps I mis-interpret the response?

Dear Tom:

Schaeffer Mfg. has various engine oils that are petroluem based and synthetic blends. they are available in SAE Grades 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40, 15W-40, 20W-50 and in Straight Grades.

Schaeffer Mfg.'s website has technical data sheets on all of these
products.

Sincerely

Lawrence G. Ludwig, Jr., OMA, CLS
Chief Chemist/Technical Director

Schfer@aol.com wrote:

rcarboni

I guess we have our answer why the dealer is so adamant about not changing until 5K. They don't want to give away any free oil changes!

Even the Dodge 5.9L Magnum engine, which is comparatively rough in casting as compared to the OHC high-revvers, does not have a break-in recommendation. Does anyone know of a specific make that claims to add a special oil or break-in component that needs to be maintained for a specific amount of time?

This FAQ seems to indicate that they may not exist?

http://www.citgo.com/Products/Lubricants/brochures/brochures.asp

Here is an engine rebuilding guide that recommends removing the first oil at 30 to 50 miles, then again at 300 to 500:

http://www.sdpc2000.com/htm/techtip.html

newcar31

Yep, thats my take on the VW "break in oil".

mufasta

I have a '92 Toyota Previa with about 205k (everything original). My driving is about 95% highway in N. Cal. My question is about switching to Mobil 1(or similar). Currently when I change the oil every 3-4k miles with regular oil, there is no difference in the oil level that I can see. Also, the last major maint. with Toyota, they didn't find any leaks while doing the valves and everything else. Since leaks have not been a problem, do any of you think that switching to synth. oil will pose a problem? The main reason I want to change to synth. is to stop changing oil every other month (or less).

BTW -- I know some of you feel that changing to synth. doesn't cause leaks in high milage cars, but mainly I want to see what those of you that feel it can does.

armtdm

Doing the valves and everything else? What exactly does that mean? If they did a valve job that is major work, not normal maint.
I would not switch oil, but I would go a minimum of 5000-7500 with your dino as your driving is mostly highway and in CA.

adc100

Changing to syn at this ninth inning probably is not worth the risk of seal or gasket(s) leakage. It may and then may not leak-no one knows. As armtdm said-you could go further on your oil changes-given you are doing highway miles. With that, you could also go with a quart or two of syn mixed with your normal engine oil. Start with, say a quart. Just a suggestion. I guess you are one of those rare people who does not have a Toyota that sludges. I am another and so is armtdm. He-he

rayfbaird

Castrol Syntec, and Valvoline Max life use the new hydrocracking. They are more durable than standard, and are reputed to actually help soften older seals. Then go a little longer.

adc100

Castrol syn (the origional scam), and Pennsoil are hydrocracked. Don't believe Valvoline is though. I guess if I were imitating a pure PAO and able to call it synthetic, I would go the whole route and proclaim it the better (or best)"synthetic" oil.

dhughes3

If you go to Schaeffer's site and find the product ident. as number 156, you'll see that it is a full synthetic 5W-30. There may be others; I didn't check further.

mufasta

armtdm: I did say it was major maint., which was at 185k. It was their 60k? maint. and the total cost was over $1k since the Previa is a b%$&h to work on. My sportbike is easier. I do know that they replaced the gasket by the heads(duh), around the oil pan, and one other location that I can't think of right now. They thought they were leaking a bit, I didn't agree (no oil loss at changes), but thought for the few extra buck, I get a little more insurance. Anyway, I'll just stick to what has worked for this long, and use synth. oil when I get my new Sienna.

As for the sludge: I can say the little four banger in my van has gone 10k before a change (opps!), the oil came out pretty dark, but it flowed easily enough. Also. considering how many Toyotas there are on the road (how many times was Camry best-selling car?) and the first time I heard this problem was here....

armtdm

No problem, only point is that people should be aware of issues and sludge is simply something to be aware of on all cars. Two million Toyotas, satisfied customers etc., Well, Consumer Reports etc. base many of their future predictions on cars as to how the predecessor performed. If the car did well over the past 5 years it is a good indicator that this will continue. Well,, not always, manufacturing changes, profits become more important then product etc. Look at Fram, from a great filter years ago to crap now. Happens all the time and I personally feel that this has occured with Toyota, not the car it used to be, IMHO. No facts to base it on, guess I will have to wait to see the CR issue five years from now!

Good luck with the Sienna and use synthetic!

brorjace

adc100, Valvoline Max-Life IS severly hydrocracked petroleum ... they just don't consider it, noe market it as, synthetic.

--- Bror Jace

mwikle

With the reformulations underway for the new spec., there are even stronger economic reasons to formulate with hydrocracked/catalytically dewaxed base oils --- I think of them a chemically changed and modified by the refining process --(Group II stock) versus the older solvent extracted (Group I stock) --- I think of these as simply "pulled out" from the crude versus being "created" from another refinery stream.

I'd best most oils now "tout" Group II in some way or use it anyway.

brorjace

I had automotive industry friends speculate 10 years ago that the newer motor oil formulations beiong discussed at that time would have to incorporate some synthetic oil in them to qualify. Who knew how complicated the whole issue would become? >;^)

--- Bror Jace