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Domestics, Germans Fare Poorly In Latest CU Survey

245

Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Well if mediocre cars were not seductive either in performance or price or styling, nobody would want them.

    Any mediocre car that has none of the above is probably in deep trouble right now....
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    How could he let it get to that point? As soon as I'd smell the unmistakable maple syrup odor of coolant, I'd immediately have the vehicle in for service. Having the water pump fail is similar to one's heart failing. The coolant is not circulating and an engine failure is to be expected. I'm sure the car would've given plenty of warning before self-destructing from overheating. A graphic message should've been displayed at the bottom of thre instrument panel as his '99 DeVille is similar to the '94 I once owned.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Yeah, and as soon as they're out of warranty, they end up on a BHPH lot in lower NE Philly and are sold to some unsuspecting poseur from a marginal neighborhood. This is the person who most often witnesses and is the victim of the spectacular and astronomically expensive death of a luxury ride. It's one thing to be able to (barely) afford the car. It's quite another thing to be able to keep up with it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Good point. The CR and JD Power surveys really can't account for low maintenance or bad maintenance and how that affects the car's reliability history.

    Probably a bad dealer network can suppress ratings to some extent, and could a sparse parts network. Perhaps this is why Lexus does as well as it does and why Benz doesn't.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Lexus also follows a "replace, do not repair" strategy when things start to malfunction.

    The owners foots the bill, of course. It's a lot easier to replace something rather than fix the original, especially when you (Lexus) are not paying for it.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    I think for VWs you either get a good one or a bad one with no middle ground. My sister's VW bug was fairly reliable for the four or five years she had it and she was the second owner. She traded it in for a Corolla last year and got good money for it.

    Most of the problems she had with it weren't the car's fault they were either her fault, 17-21 year old girls don't tend to be the best at keeping up with maintenance, or were someone else's fault. She ran into a couch that had fallen out of someone's truck in the middle of the highway and the AC never really worked right after that. Body repair on that car was fairly simple though as the fenders easily bolt off the side of the car and that exposes all of the suspension components.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    He did shut the engine off once it displayed that it was hot. He then called a tow truck to haul it into the dealer for repairs. However, the northstar engine does not self destruct from overheating, the engine will shut itself partly down to prevent serious overheating.

    The problem was that a headgasket failed at some point after the water pump failed. There really is no evidence to say the the overheating caused the headgasket failure. However, sometime after the water pump failure, the cooling system was low on coolant and called for more coolant. More coolant was added at the dealership, but this was not considered alarming at the time. After a bit more time passed (a few months?), the cooling system again asked for more coolant. This time the service department was alarmed, and it was determined that a head gasket needed replacement. The engine was torn down, but would not go back together because something was warped perhaps :confuse: - I really did not quite understand what was wrong, except that a new engine was needed. He is still driving the car. His wife is now very anti-Cadillac :sick:
  • Even defining it by manufacturer is getting harder now, for example having Camry built at the Subaru plant in Indiana... is it really #1 in reliability or #3 (or #6?) because it's not built in a Toyota factory?)

    I work for a company that supplies major parts to both Subaru and Toyota @ Lafayette and I can say that Subaru parts are better engineered and made with better materials than the Toyota parts. In our experience, Subaru parts are engineered to last the life of the car and Toyota are made to last a month past the warranty. I hope Subaru doesn't take any Toyota engineering advice. I know several people who work on Camry line in Lafayette that previously worked on Subaru that think Toyota quality is a joke.

    BTW, we own a Subaru Tribeca but would not even consider a Toyota anything. I had a bad Toyota ownership experience in the '90's and vowed I would never go back. The Subaru hasn't been flawless but the dealership experience has made up for the small problems.
  • ggurr54ggurr54 Posts: 30
    I disagree with your CR fun factor comment. As I recall in describing the 3 series BMW CR uses the phrase fun to drive.
  • ggurr54ggurr54 Posts: 30
    Have owned many Toyotas. Quality has always been excellent. My 99 4 Runner has had one problem in nine years. Had to replace the power antenna. Thats it. My 98 Sienna had 140,000 miles at the time it was totaled with no major or minor problems. I have owned Fords that were lucky to make it to 50,000 before the transmission failed. The Toyota dealerships do leave much to be desired but the product never disappoints.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Okay but then what explains Toyota thriving and Subaru struggling? It's not just the parts of course, but how you put them together, how you style the car, etc.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    Maybe if you are the first owner of a Lexus LS, you can keep going without too much worry.

    Not a lot of worry, just a lot of money. I can show evidence that an LS400 is not cheap to keep in top shape for many years. My wife bought hers when they first got here in 1989. It still runs like a champ. It cost many thousands of dollars to keep it running like a champ. It just went past 90k miles. We will keep it as a family loaner car after we buy a new luxury diesel SUV. I did notice a couple drops of oil on the garage floor the other day. Better take it in for the 90k mile service. NOT at a Lexus dealer though.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    CR surveys show that 8 year old Lexus LSes had fewer defects per 100 than a brand new Mercedes!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I wonder how other 18 year old Lexus fare. My point is that cars all cost a lot to keep in good running order. We just sold our 1990 Mazda 626. It had just over 90k miles. Got $1250 for it. The cost to maintain the Mazda that always sat outside was a lot less than the LS400 over the same time and mileage. If Lexus SUVs were not such gas hogs we would consider the LX. I am hoping a few more will show up with diesel option before I plunk down the cash. Right now the ML320 CDI is in the lead, and I could care less about the CR report. Means absolutely nothing to me. I know the truth and it is not on the pages of that magazine.
  • Have owned many Toyotas. Quality has always been excellent.

    Have only owned one Toyota but had problems within two weeks of new purchase and dealer experience was a nightmare. Neither Toyota Regional Rep nor Dealer experience were acceptable.

    The Toyota dealers in our area that I've had personal dealings with have been less than acceptable. The same Toyota dealer I bought my Truck from also operates a separate Subaru store and the dealership experience at Subaru store is totally customer oriented. There couldn't be a bigger difference between the two stores. The Toyota store is very high volume, high pressure and the Subaru store is very laid back and low key.

    I understand that my engine failure in my truck may not be the norm, but the Regional Rep and Dealer experience guaranteed Toyota would never see my money again.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    If Lexus SUVs were not such gas hogs we would consider the LX. I am hoping a few more will show up with diesel option before I plunk down the cash. Right now the ML320 CDI is in the lead

    Wow - you're concerned about gas mileage in a $50,000 vehicle?
  • Okay but then what explains Toyota thriving and Subaru struggling? It's not just the parts of course, but how you put them together, how you style the car, etc.

    I agree that Toyota is thriving and Subaru is struggling for recognition. I do know that they are two completely different companies. Subaru quality is a cut above the Toyotas I have seen, IMO. To me Toyotas are a cold utilitarian piece of equipment that expresses no driving fun where Subaru has personality, even if it is quirky. ;)

    Every Subaru sold in NA is also a top safety pick, Toyota, I think not. I realize that not everyone cares about safety but it is a big deal to Subaru and I think they deserve the recognition for the effort.

    These are just my opinions but I vote with my car dollars. :)
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Personally I wouldn't touch a Mercedes, any Mercedes, with a 10-foot pole now. Their quality and reliability have apparently gone to hell in a hand basket, and it's not just CR stating this.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Every Subaru sold in NA is also a top safety pick, Toyota, I think not.

    Um, not quite: to get the IIHS Top Safety Pick award, the car has to have stability control as at least an option. On most Subarus, only the higher line models have standard or optional ESC. Toyota's stumbling block in the safety arena has been head restraints (rear crash protection). They have a number of vehicles that get the highest rating of Good in both frontal and side crash tests, but it's the head restraints that fall short. But ESC is more widely available (and standard on all Toyota/Lexus SUVs and the Tundra).
  • Personally I wouldn't touch a Mercedes, any Mercedes, with a 10-foot pole now.

    The M-Class CDI would be on my short list if I were shopping for an SUV right now. I see Mercedes improving on quality recently. I think it matters on the model and equipment picked. We currently have.

    2007 BMW 335i - No problems to date, 10k miles.

    2006 Subaru Tribeca - Only minor issues, 32k miles.

    2004 Mini Cooper S - Only 1 minor issue, 29k miles.

    2000 Chevy Silverado - Several issues, replaced transmission
    @ 60k miles currently has 75k miles.

    Traded a 2005 BMW 325xi with 32k miles for the new 335i and that was the first car I have ever owned that I had ZERO problems with. Just the normal scheduled services which cost me nothing. Even the Mini Cooper which is suppose to be problem ridden has been all but one minor issue of being trouble free.

    I typically avoid alot of optional electrical doo-dads which I do not need to add to my driving experience. This also lessons the potential problems as well.
  • Um, not quite: to get the IIHS Top Safety Pick award, the car has to have stability control as at least an option.
    My bad, you are correct, Here is the quote from Subaru website.

    "In the 2007 IIHS awards, 13 car models were designated as Top Safety Picks**. Three belonged to Subaru—the Legacy, Forester, and Tribeca—the most awards of any single automotive brand."

    Not to diminish their commitment to Safety 3 out of the 13 Best Picks is great for any company, especially when you consider how small Subaru is compared to Toyota. Has Toyota made side air bags and or head restraints standard on every vehicle yet?
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Well, the press release you cite is little out of date. There are now 23 models that earn the 2007 Top Safety Pick, and 8 of them are Ford or Volvo products (same company): See this.

    What do you mean by standard head restraints? All cars must have them in front seats by federal standard, and most now have them at all seating positions. If you mean "good" head restraints according to the IIHS, there's only one Toyota to date, the Tundra, but I understand more are on the way.

    As for side airbags, no, they're not standard on all Toyotas yet, just most of them, including the Camry, RAV4, Prius, and even the new Scion xB.

    Really though, I have no bone to pick with Subaru. I think they make great cars, but IMO so do Toyota and Honda. (Plus my 9-year-old Nissan Frontier has been darn near bulletproof, but it IS a simple machine without all the fancy bells and whistles -- I even have to shift for myself and hand crank the windows!)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    You should read the full report in the mag itself to get the full magnitude of it. The statistics on Mercedes are truly gruesome. There's got to be something behind it because no other car scored anywhere near as badly. Benz was the worst car rated, right in the basement.

    Sobering, if true. As a longtime admirer and defender of the Benz name, it depressed me...truly.
  • Well, the press release you cite is little out of date. There are now 23 models that earn the 2007 Top Safety Pick, and 8 of them are Ford or Volvo products (same company):

    Same three Subaru models on there. I didn't see any Toyotas on this list either.

    What do you mean by standard head restraints?

    Sorry It's past my bedtime or something. I meant to say Seat mounted Side Air Bags as well as Side Curtain Airbags. My whole point is being BIG (Toyota / GM)doesn't make your product the best or safest. I'm not saying that Subaru is the best, just that they are making strides compared to their small niche market. they will never be able to compete with Toyota and doubt they want to.

    BMW may not have made the top of the CU Survey but I would buy another one without pause. I also wouldn't think twice about buying a Porsche just because it didn't make the top either. ;)
  • Really though, I have no bone to pick with Subaru. I think they make great cars, but IMO so do Toyota and Honda. (Plus my 9-year-old Nissan Frontier has been darn near bulletproof, but it IS a simple machine without all the fancy bells and whistles -- I even have to shift for myself and hand crank the windows!)

    If Toyota and their dealer would have handled my engine failure differently in my truck, I would have probably given them another chance. Immediately after getting the engine replaced I traded it for a 1992 Isuzu Pickup and drove it 150k miles and only had minor issues. It was a complete stripper with crank windows, no pwr steering and no A/C but I enjoyed driving it more than wondering what was going to happen to my Toyota out of warranty. Toyota didn't lose me by their product alone. The dealer and regional rep treatment sealed that deal.

    (Plus my 9-year-old Nissan Frontier has been darn near bulletproof, but it IS a simple machine without all the fancy bells and whistles -- I even have to shift for myself and hand crank the windows!)

    Both of my BMW's and also the Mini Cooper are manual transmissions with manually adjusted seats. I prefer to keep things simple. I don't need all the fancy gadgets to add to the driving pleasure anyway. Less to worry about repair wise as well.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    You got that right. All this extra gadgetry is killing the reliability ratings I betcha.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,270
    Did they give specific problem areas?

    I will admit as I am able to own newer and newer MB, I run into more problems. My E55 has no mechanical issues, but it does have some other quirks which would be intolerable without the warranty I purchased.

    Now the AC has crapped out after a recharge, and apparently it's either going to be a leak, or it'll need a new evaporator, which will not please the warranty people I am sure. This is a 30K mile car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Not that I recall. They just said it had 200% more problems than average!! I guess that means twice as many or is that 3 times as many? Let's see...100% more is double, so yeah 200% more is triple.....that's not good.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,270
    I wonder about the problems specifically. I don't mind little things like loose trim etc that I can fix myself. I do hate electrical issues.

    I bet a lot of these are W220 S class and some 6cyl E class along with early W211 cars which are known to be troublesome.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    Of course. I consider fossil fuel conservation a good thing. I also like the added range that I got with both diesel vehicles I owned. The MB should have a 700 mile range on the highway. Having owned both gas and diesel vehicles over the last 5 years, I prefer the driving experience with a diesel. That power at low RPM cannot be duplicated with a gas engine. I am not concerned with 0-60 times.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I believe I get more accurate information from Edmund's than is available from CR. I have checked on the ML320 CDI and it has a 9.5 consumer rating here on Edmund's. That is as high or higher than any vehicle Toyota builds. Did CR even test or include the ML320 CDI? If not it would be a waste of money buying the magazine. No faith in CR for 46 years, no reason to change now. There is more and better information on any product you want to buy on the Internet. Why waste money on a magazine?
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Hmmmm! Even more of a mystery. Did your friend notice a white exhaust plume when the headgasket failed? It's scary if the failure happened w/o warning such as the sweetish smell of coolant and the white exhaust emmissions.

    Well, if I sunk $5K into a car, I guess I would keep it but I'd never trust it again. How many miles did the car have on it? I believe the Northstar's supposed to have coolant that lasts 100K miles. I wonder how true this is in reality?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    None of the northstars I have worked on could make it 100,000 miles on coolant. The Dexcool in those engines might make it to 50,000 but most likely won't because of time as those caddies don't get driven a whole lot.

    Realistically I think they are good for 50,000 miles or 3-4 years whichever comes first.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's always interesting to hear an insider's perspective, especially since you see things that most of us never do as part of the supply chain.

    As you know, my family has owned several Subarus, and we just bought a Sienna (I wish Subaru offered a people mover, but even the Tribeca wasn't quite big enough for what we wanted).

    I haven't noticed an appreciable difference in quality, i.e. both are fine. Neither is luxurious, but both are well built and have given me no problems. To be fair, the Subaru was 9 years old when I sold it. Still, the Sienna has not disappointed me, and the engine is an absolute gem. I gave up AWD but gained size and nearly 100hp and get nearly the same gas mileage on trips.

    18 years ain't bad for any car, gagrice. Mileage is low, but still, over 18 years we should expect nearly everything to wear out. I don't think that LS owes you anything after that long period.

    As for CR, they're the most controversial source for sure, but they do have the largest survey samples by far. It was 1.3 million cars this year.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Link found in another thread...

    I found this spin pretty funny:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=122185
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Well the flaw in their logic is that while Toyoto increases production and therefore increases their chances for carelessness, there's a presumption that domestic manufacturers will increase BOTH production and their own quality.

    So what I'm reading is that somehow increased production will hurt Toyota, thereby allowing domestics to increase production but that won't hurt them.

    I don't THINK so.

    The last 15 years or so of studies of customer satisfaction pretty clearly shows that while domestic quality is getting better, so are all the Japanese makes, thereby making domestics still dead last overall (cumulatively, not individually). However, it could be that "last" is not as far behind as it used to be.

    Statistics are so squirrely!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    You can wrestle the numbers to say anything you want. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I don't think that LS owes you anything after that long period.

    It is a good car for sure. It will remain a good car as a family loaner. No reason to sell it. I would love to buy another vehicle that would last that long. I don't think any mfg builds them for the long haul anymore. We live in a throw-away society.

    CR really does not matter to me, it is there and people will take it or leave it. I doubt it has an impact on the car buying public. I never hear anyone refer to it other than here on Edmund's.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    You don't sell cars either. I hear it all the time.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I am sure that is true. Especially if you are selling a vehicle that CR was unkind to. I have friends that buy at the auctions and sell to whoever. One is a Honda fanatic the other BMW. Neither has ever mentioned CR. The one has tried to sell me an X5. I told him when BMW puts their diesel in that will be on my list.

    I just don't find it logical that out of 300 million people that even 1% read that magazine.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Well let's say that being totally slammed by CR can't do a car company any good at any rate.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    Funny true story...

    I delivered a SC Range Rover to a guy around 45 minutes away from my house about a year ago. About a month or two after he picks it up he calls me to let me know the NAV system and DVD entertainment system aren't working.

    No problem I tell him I will set up a service appointment for him and pick up the car from his house one morning. A couple of days before the appointment he calls again to say the caretaker at his property thinks the front diff is leaking.

    He is getting a little frustrated since the car is less then three months old and SEEMS to be having all these problems.

    I pick up the car one morning before work and bring it into the dealership.

    The reason the NAV system isn't working is because he got two discs stuck in the DVD player for the NAV system. The NAV system DVD player only holds one and some how he shoved two in there.

    The DVD entertainment system doesn't work because he shoved the DVD magazine in so hard that it broke something inside the player and jammed the retrieval mechanism.

    The Front diff really was leaking so that was a real problem. A seal somewhere didn't take and so there was a little bit of drippage.

    Now what do I tell this guy? Do I tell the CEO of a major corporation that he is a moron and shoved two Map DVDs in a slot for one and jammed the Rear Seat Entertainment DVD player by being ham fisted?

    Or do I just leave all that out and tell him it was broken we fixed it problem solved?

    I took the middle ground and told him he had two DVDs stuck in the nav system and that was why it was broken. I didn't mention that he broke the DVD player by being to rough.

    If he gets one of these reliability surveys in the mail does he report those as three problems when really he only had one? I doubt he fills those things out so it doesn't matter but still an average person probably would do that.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure how many subsribers they have, but the April issue (Auto issue) sells a lot of copies on the news stands.

    My Credit Union keeps back issues of CR, since they offer auto loans, and that's what most shoppers use when they need a reference.

    When the average consumer is asked what source he would use to look up reliability, he would probably say either Consumer Reports or JD Power. The latter doesn't sell magazines, so CR has gotta be #1.

    I don't have numbers, but it's just common sense.

    Who else is there, even? Strategic Vision? Noone's even heard of them.

    I can't think of others.

    Enthusiasts like us will seek out forums, sure, but now you're not talking about Joe Consumer any more.

    Hate 'em all you want, but CR is the #1 magazine source for reliability.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It certainly stinks to be in that position, but I'm sure all dealers come across cases like that.

    And before you say all CEOs drive Land Rovers (or luxury cars), that's not necessarily true. One survey I saw among millionaries listed Ford as the most common brand purchased.

    Plus, to plebean folks an auto represents a huge investment, the 2nd biggest they'll ever make. There's far more at stake for them vs. one rich CEO that's just gonna lease a different Range Rover in 2 years.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    And before you say all CEOs drive Land Rovers (or luxury cars), that's not necessarily true. One survey I saw among millionaries listed Ford as the most common brand purchased.


    I wasn't playing on saying that and don't see where you got the idea I would. IIRC have the most CEO customers at my dealership with five but I know that not all CEOs drive Land Rovers some of them drive Mercedes and BMWs too. :P

    I was just telling a story about perceived problems and reliability. He cause two of those three faults himself but I bet the majority of people would report those problems to a survey as a problem with the car and not the driver. He hasn't had any problems with the car since and I would know as we live fairly close and he would call me to come get the car if he had a problem.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It just sounded like you were coming up with excuses. :P

    I'm sure cases like that happen to all brands. A dealer wouldn't want to make a 16 year old girl who just spent her life savings on a Toyota Yaris feel stupid, either.

    Any how, bottom line is I agree, many problems are very likely caused by the consumer. Absolutely. If not an extra DVD jammed in to a GPS, perhaps neglected maintenance (you mean I have to change the oil?), or hitting a large pothole and not reporting it, etc.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    If you look at the most popular cars researched at Edmunds:

    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/mostpopular/index.html

    I think you'll get the impression, as I did, that imports are of far more interest to consumers than domestic cars.

    Just to keep score...domestics only posted 13 cars out of the top 50, and none in the most popular rankings (near the top I mean).
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    I had to design products for GM. My product was a commodity. Anyone with a garage and $1000 could become a competitor. In reality only the best of Japan and Germany were our competitors quality wise. Korea and France had low priced stuff that was terrible quality. The problem was that to make a product that sells for $10 each, GM had to allow 25% for materials, 65% for labor and 10% for engineering and profit. Japan's ratio was quite different. They had 40% for materials, 30% for labor and 30% for advertising and profits.
    So in the end the denso part has higher quality materials but the employees were paid less and forklift drivers for denso didn't drive caddilacs and live in a 4 br house. At GM they did. As an engineer at GM, it was my job to make a better reliability and performance product with $1.50 less material content than denso. I did that. My product looked cheaper but outperformed the denso product.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    I especially like the article from CR that advised strongly that teenagers should be only given cars with stability control. I immediately researched the availability of stability control and ran out and bought my high schooler a $25,000 '07 Civic. We just sold our house and now rent a 2 br apt so we can handle the $500 per month payments on the Civc. We have a popular car in the driveway though. I only want a car that at least 80% of people want
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Did you really do all that so your son could have a new car? If so, you're an extremely generous Dad.

    When I was foolish enough to approach my Dad about him buying me a car, he always gave me the same reply, "Get a job, buy your own car, and pay for the insurance!" Well, that I did.

    In 1981, I bought my first car at 16 for the princely sum of $650 - a rather plain 1968 Buick Special Deluxe 6-passenger station wagon. I passed the car down to my brother and he ran it until 1992. This car made do with primitive drum brakes at all four corners. Sometimes I think NOT having stuff like stability control and ABS made me a better driver. Another great thing was the car was cheap and easy to service and repair. I learned a lot about servicing my own cars rather than relying on a mechanic.

    I also found out what an excellent car Buick builds and have purchased several others later on. I currently have a 1988 Park Avenue that simply won't die and my girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she simply loves.
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