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Domestics, Germans Fare Poorly In Latest CU Survey

135

Comments

  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    I think he was being sarcastic.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Geeze, I reread his message and missed it. Didn't get much sleep last night!
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    I don't think there's a Civic on the planet that would have a $500 a month payment unless your credit score only has two digits.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I think Honda is leasing the fuel cell Civic for $500 per month.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think one problem domestics are facing is that they are no longer perceived as innovative. Nowadays consumers place a lot of status on having the "latest technology" and it's my suspicion that the Japanese and Germans gain a lot of street cred based on a reputation for being "ahead" of the domestics technically (whether this is real or imagined, there it is).

    My personal opinion is that while the "gap" is not all that wide, that yes indeed the American auto industry has not been in the forefront of innovation for at least the last 35 years. **

    It's possible that along with better service, and better warranties, a couple of "coups" in the technology department wouldn't hurt the American auto industry at all.

    ** a few examples are fuel injection, AWD passenger cars (not 4X4), effective turbocharging, innovative styling, hybrids, fuel economy, 6 speed automatics, paddle-shifting, stability controls, back up cameras, bluetooth).
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    What, the CNG Civic?
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    No, the Civic FCX. Very exclusive offering in a few places. It is a $100k plus Civic. The $500 per month is a token lease to keep out the riff raff.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    The FCX is no more a Civic than the Prius is a Camry.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    It looks like a Civic. Probably where the similarity ends.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    I think one problem domestics are facing is that they are no longer perceived as innovative.

    What a joke. You don't have the inside scoop here.

    Nowadays consumers place a lot of status on having the "latest technology" and it's my suspicion that the Japanese and Germans gain a lot of street cred based on a reputation for being "ahead" of the domestics technically (whether this is real or imagined, there it is).

    And there it isn't. consumers want comfort, mpg, safety, power, reliability, entertainment, handling, and after all that and price, then comes gagetry. Status comes from how much you spent, not how much you got or how much tech. Maybe 2% of the people who see you in your car knows what tech gagetry is in it. from the outside, looks, size, power, sound are the key determinants of how desirable your car is. How many will ever notice your auto dimming mirrors or mirrors that tilt for backing up?

    My personal opinion is that while the "gap" is not all that wide, that yes indeed the American auto industry has not been in the forefront of innovation for at least the last 35 years. **
    Your entitled to your opinion. I disagree after working in the innovative Amer auto industry for 11 years. There's a gap in both directions. America has hundreds of patents on features only their cars have. Likewise for Japan.

    It's possible that along with better service, and better warranties, a couple of "coups" in the technology department wouldn't hurt the American auto industry at all.

    Delphi bought Lucas, a leader in DIG** a few examples are fuel injection, AWD passenger cars (not 4X4) like the Fusion?, effective turbocharging (Diesels making up what, 1% of all cars?), innovative styling (Sky), hybrids(need $7 gallon gas to pan out), fuel economy (I got 45 mpg in a Cavalier and 28mpg in a 3600 lb car), 6 speed automatics(what for? engine lacks torque?), paddle-shifting( I'd buy a manual if I want to shift), stability controls (useful since one American dies in every 200 million vehicle miles traveled), back up cameras(really can't turn head?), bluetooth (a new cause of accidents)).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Okay name one*major*innovation in modern cars that first appeared in an American car in the last 35 years in workable, mass-produced form. (from year 1968 onwards)

    fuel injection? Nope. OHC engines? nope. Turbocharging? Nope. AWD systems? nope. 5 speed manual transmissions? nope. 6-speed manual transmissions? nope. 6 speed automatic tranmissions? nope. active suspension? nope. Stability controls? nope. Variable valve timing? nope.

    Possible American innovations? Maybe air bags. That's pretty major. Heads-up display...debatable significance. ABS? not sure but I know the Jensen Healey FF had it first--not mass produced though, so maybe that's an American first...need to research that.

    I do see pushrod engines though, and to be fair, they work pretty darn well, too. But about as new as 1912.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    satelite radio, onstar, DOD, int wipers, traction control, magnasteer, OBDII, use of plastics in engines, rain sensing wipers, air conditioned seats and steering wheel, lock-up torque converters, superchargers, self leveling suspension, remote entry, remote start, long life coolant and plugs. I'm no expert but we were filing dozens of patents a year in the ignition group. On the manufacturing side there are thousands of process innovations to make cars go together smoother, quicker, and with higher quality.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    Oh come on you can't expect to take credit for a lot of those can you?

    Air Conditioned Seats were SAAB although they were owned by GM at the time so I guess that one counts.

    OBDII????? You can't count that it was gov't mandated everyone had to have it in 1996.

    Superchargers have been around since WWII.

    I am pretty sure Traction Control came on MB cars long before any domestic. I wouldn't brag about the plastics in engines as the early attempts of doing that didn't turn out so well.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I'd have to respectfully disagree on some of your suggestions, and the others...well, I did say MAJOR and I know that means different things to different people, but really now, long life coolant is clever but....major?.

    I think self-leveling suspension goes to Citroen and traction control to Mercedes Benz (Pontiac was the first American car with it in early 1970s as I recall).

    So that leaves you with the coolant, the ac seats, int wipers, sat radio, etc. As you say----GADGETS! (not that gadgets are bad per se...)

    You are right about lock-up converters (Packard, 1955) and you missed......cruise control!! Definitely an American invention.

    and Corvette's magna-ride or whatever they call it. That's pretty slick.

    So yeah, there have been a few innovations, but not that much compared to the imports. It's not what you'd expect from the American reputation for innovation and technical dominance.

    I think the American auto industry basically went to sleep from 1965--1985 or so, staggered back to life 1985-1995, and right around OBDII realized it had better do something good again.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    I dunno. I think Packard had a self-leveling suspension as far back as 1955.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    yeah but Citroen's could be controlled from the driver's seat. It was active, Packard's was passive and merely tilted the rear of the car up or down to get it level. Citroen's actually raised the entire car, and you also use it to change the tire! Much slicker and more advanced than Packard.

    But hey, the Citroen didn't "level" the suspension, that's true, so technically you are correct. Score one American.

    The question is, which makes the greater impression. Obviously Citroen, as the '55 CIT was voted by world auto journalists as one of the most significantly innovative cars of the 20th century.

    Packard's lock-up converter was highly significant however, for which it was rewarded by going bankrupt. Not a sexy item I guess but you see it in almost every car today!
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    Citroen had it in 1954 though for the rear and 1955 for the whole car.

    Magnaride was developed by Delphi but I don't remember if it was before or after GM sold the company off.

    It is a very slick system though.
  • fezofezo Manahawkin, NJPosts: 10,376
    I was away and missed all the fried engine talk. My daughter's lack of knowledge of the smell of coolant perhaps and a very sudden overheating on the Garden State Parkway of all places resulted in the loss on one (1) 99 Toyota Camry engine. Not to be content with simple engine failure it also blew out the catalytic converter and, after all was said and done they traces it to a radiator blockage.

    Oh, well. One black mark on a 99 Camry and I can confirm lemko's thought - once you put $5K in a car you are going to keep it a while.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    There one point in favor of heavy cast iron pushrod V-8 blocks...they hardly even need coolant to get you home!

    But these french poodle alloy engines we have today...they bend like Beckham the minute they get hot.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    Drivable concept versions of General Motors cars that use efficient new engines with HCCI technology revealed Friday.

    I mentioned several items. You called them gadgets because they were not foreign. You mentioned transmissions, transmissions, transmissions, turbochargers. Turbochargers have sucked for 20 years. 6th gear is a gadget. How much credit do you want for an extra transmission gear. Like I said, not enough Torque in the engine mated to the tranny?
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    what about DOD? that's better than any extra tranny gears and takes far more tech to execute. It bumps up mileage of a car by 30-40%.
  • p0926p0926 Posts: 4,423
    I don't think there's a Civic on the planet that would have a $500 a month payment unless your credit score only has two digits.

    Huh? If you're buying with zero down and no trade, a $500 a month payment doesn't get you all that much car. That's assuming you stick with the old fashion traditional 36-month loan :P I find it depressing that the length of new car loans keeps getting stretched longer and longer. Now I believe you can even get a 96-month loan! :sick:

    -Frank
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    A auto in a civic new is 18,200 plus tax. 36 mo factor for a 6.9% loan is .03055. 19k times .03055 gives the 36 mo payment for this Civic with either 500 down or 500 off sticker.
    The crunched numbers:
    loan amt 36 mo pmt
    19000 580
    18000 550
    17000 519
    16000 489
    can you buy anything besides an aveo for under 16k out the door new?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    what about DOD? that's better than any extra tranny gears and takes far more tech to execute. It bumps up mileage of a car by 30-40%.

    In what lab could you manage to pull that off.

    When did DOD come out anyway 2005 or 2006?

    A 2005 2WD durango with out DOD gets 12/17 and 14 combined on the new EPA ratings.

    A 2006 2wd Durango with DOD gets 13/19 and 15 combined on the new EPA ratings.

    Please show me a car that gets 30-40 percent better mileage with DOD or variable displacement.

    I am not saying that it is bad technology but it is not nearly as good as you are saying it is.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    My SRX's northstar engine is supposed to prevent engine meltdown by shutting down some of the cylinders if the coolant somehow disappears. One can supposedly continue on part power until the oil turns into sludge.

    While the SRX is available with magnetic ride, the 20 inch wheels require regular shocks.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I think how good your mileage is depends on how you drive. In particular, Motor Week (PBS tv show) did a comparison with two drivers driving 300C's, one used the power, the other DOD, with the difference being 17 and 24 MPG.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Well Dave my point really was that when people go shopping for a luxury car, and one has a 4-speed auto and the other a 6-speed auto, and if this "gadget" is explained to them, they're gonna go for it over older tech. And why shouldn't they?

    The 6-speed auto is actually quite purposeful. Read here for advantages:

    http://www.audiworld.com/news/00/zf/content.shtml

    And they handle up to 440 ft/lbs of torque, so the torque argument doesn't really hold up IMO.

    Innovation does not mean "complexity" in my book at any rate...the two aren't synonymous.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I think you are right. A Civic hybrid out the door in CA is very close to $25K. On a 4 year loan that is close to $600 per month with 6.5% interest. Like you say, if you have a loan longer than your warranty it is super risky.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I really think that the six speed automatic on my SRX is much better for overall performance than the 4 speed that my Seville had. I also think that fuel consumption is reduced somewhat, as I can cruise 70 MPH with the engine turning over @1800 RPMs in sixth. It does kick down into 5th to climb a moderate grade though.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    well sure, any overdrive ratio will require a kickdown or downshift under load. Even manual 6-speeds work great in certain types of cars....look at that great gas mileage on the Corvette and yet there's no lack of performance when you need it!!

    It's interesting, isn't it, that the "tech leaders" in the GM lineup, Cadillac and Corvette, are doing great?
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Well, Cadillac is certainly better than Buick, but the DTS (deVille/whatever) is really not much of a tech leader. Cadillac's CTS and STS are really the tech cars at Cadillac, with the SRX a fairly decent mid-size lux SUV.

    But I think you have a good point about GM not being much of a leader in tech. They are just getting the six speed automatics in production. I will say that mine is very smooth, and with the manual mode, is much easier to downshift than the Seville 4-speed was. I think that GM's big problem is going to be fuel consumption. With high priced fuel, people will be looking for economy, and Toyota's Prius is where GM needs to be. The Volt, if it really does what they are projecting, may take the wind out of Toyota sails, but I would not bet on it quite yet.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    OK so I'm cruising at 70 mph in a 5.3L Impala and running on 8 cylinders. 4 of them shut down and I'm suddenly getting 27 mpg. You tell me what I was getting with a 303 HP V8 running on all 8 cylinders at 70mph? 20 plus 30% is 26 by my math.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    It bumps up mileage of a car by 30-40%

    i said car not durango
    i said it bumps up mileage. i didnt say city or combined. dont you know that dod only kicks in during steady cruising. and that is where it......30-40%. what mileage increase does 6th gear give a car? gm attacks with 2:1 idea. there is no better idea than that.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,243
    Geez...My 5.4L E55 (354hp/391lb ft) can return 24mpg at 70mph with no DOD or anything of that ilk, just a big old engine developed about a decade ago. What's the point of this new stuff?
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    I was referring to EPA numbers, not made up numbers. The 300 HP 5.4 L is rated 14 city, 18 hwy for reg cab 4WD. If you are getting 24 instead of 18 that's great. I once got 45 mpg in a Cavalier back in '99 so does that make Hybrids worthless tech?
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    The V8 Impala does 0 to 80 at incredible quickness and then delivers 27 mpg at cruise. What other gas powered car of equal size and weight does that?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    Err he isn't talking about a pickup truck.

    He is talking about his E55 as in Mercedes.

    As to your Impala...

    A Jaguar XJ will do that all day long if not better.

    link title
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Nah, EPA says 24 mpg max. Shoot, that ain't so hot. My 928 Porsche got 23 mpg on cruise, and it was plenty fast and 25 years old.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    The EPA ratings are all well and good, my SRX is rated (new 2008 numbers) at a max of 20 highway, but with the engine still new, I got about 21 MPG on my long trip to MI in July with temperatures running upwards of 105 degrees F (lots of A/C needed).

    The Impala gets the best MPG rating with the smallest engine, 28 MPG highway, while the DOD V8 is rated 24 MPG. The real question is what will a driver actually get if they take it easy. As I pointed out before, Motor Week actually did an experiment like this with the Chyrsler 300C and the lead footed driver got 17, while the other driver got 24. The 300C is rated (new) 23 MPG highway.

    The new ratings for a 1987 928 is 21 MPG highway.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    We rented a new Impala a few weeks ago to drive around with 5 of us in the car and it was just not an impressive car to me. Of course, it's a bread and butter model, I understand that, and not expensive to buy, but still, the very name of Impala on this car was a disappointment. I thought to myself that once again GM has put a once-premium label on a vehicle that doesn't exhibit any premium characteristics. Better they had called it a Belair.

    That's not good to mess with the heritage IMO.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,243
    It's nice that you are jumpy and claim my numbers are made up, but they are not. Perhaps viewing my profile to see which vehicle I am referring to would create less confusion.

    See, not much difference
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Actually, that was an idea I proposed all along. Only the loaded up Chevrolet should be called Impala. The lesser cars that go to rental fleets, taxi fleets, police and other agencys should be called Biscaynes and the plainer car sold to the public a Bel-Air.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    Isn't that little chart great?

    Here is one with a XJR thrown in

    A non-supercharged Jag gets one better city and three better highway mileage. All using the 2007 EPA specs of course.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,243
    Very fun toy.

    I like the 17mpg city claim for my car...I wish I got that! I drive a little immaturely. But I can get the 24mpg with little effort.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,458
    The revised 2008 City mileage for your car is 15 mpg. Is that closer to what you normally get?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,243
    That's probably about it when I drive like a normal person. In reality, it is no worse than my C43, not a lot worse than my old 6cyl W126 or the fintail either.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    So your gonna stack Impala against 70 and 80 thousand dollar cars with more gears in their trannies and still give 3 mpg to the Impala.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,498
    As for the XJ, 2 more gears in tranny, 1.1 less liters displacement, 32 valves instead of 16, and less torque enable it to tie the Impala for hwy mpg. DoD makes up for an awful lot here, not to mention $.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    What GM's website says that DOD does for the Impala is 8%. That is approximately 2 MPG. I really think that the Impala would have good performance with the northstar V8 and probably better fuel economy.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,243
    My E55 is 5 years old. I paid 28K for it - last year, with 27K miles on it. This is about what a new Impala would cost me.

    It's not anyone else's fault that this car has a 4 speed. I own a 1964 car with a 4 speed auto...
This discussion has been closed.