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Comments
-mike
You you may just want to shop at few dealers with your car. I would suspect (and this is a WAG) that it would cost you in the range of $4000 plus your car for a new one. Remember the dealer will make money on your car, and he has to price it as a two year old car that is a previous generation of the Outback. And Outbacks have only gone up $400 between the 1999 and 2001 model years.
You can certainly sell the car yourself and get maybe $1-2K more than trade-in, but then you have to market it and make the car and yourself available to whoever wants to check it out. Been there, done that, don't like doin it.
BTW I really like the new OB. Quieter, better ride, better interior. Maybe better gas mileage than the 98. I'm getting 28-29 MPG with less than 1500 miles on it.
The 2001 is even a bit better that the 2000 with the LSD and a few additional interior upgrades.
Good luck if you sell or trade your car.
The other thing is, if you're paying invoice for theirs, they're going to offer wholesale for yours, i.e. apples to apples. Don't expect full retail unless you sell it yourself and get very lucky.
paisan makes a good point. Your current ride has the Phase I engine and the old bodystyle. The new body is in hot demand.
For that reason, I'm with Don on the transaction costing you at least $4 grand. Figure $21k for the new one, minus $17k or so for the trade.
My usual rule of thumb is that a car loses 10% of its value the minute you drive off the lot, and another 10% every year after that. That means yours would have depreciated 30%, so if you paid around $20k the "average car's" resale is around $14k.
Hence the Outback has excellent resale value.
I'd go in acting very reluctant, and try to get the dealer to work with you.
-juice
Just keep in mind you are upgrading. You're not just getting a newer vehicle, you're also getting more room, the auto, more torque, safety features, etc.
Good luck.
-juice
Well, they do loosen up, and shifting does improve. I have 10,000 miles on the car now ('00 Legacy GT sdn). The clutch action isn't as edgy anymore and the shifter moves between gears with a much nicer feel than when it was new. I'm sure some of it is due to my getting used to it, but I'm equally sure that some of it is due to things breaking in.
So don't give up on the stick just yet ;-)
Cheers,
WDB
Jeff
Basically if they aren't gonna move the car in a week they check with their wholesaler who probably sells em at auction in the midwest (we're located in NYC) and whatever the wholesaler tells em they'll give em, is what they pass on to the customer.
On an acclaim your re-sale is probably worse than anything cause they are such bad cars (my dad's has had over $5000 in warranty work over 90K miles)
-mike
WDB- Are you sure that your transmission loosened up or did you just get accustomed to it? My last vehicle was a Jeep with 113K on the original clutch. For me it shifted fine but anyone else had trouble with it.
-Frank P.
Speaking of shifters, I'm going to try the SPT short-shift kit from Subaru, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.
It's supposed to give the shifter a shorter throw and a real nice snick-snick feel. I tried one on an RS and LOVED it. It's $203 or so, so I'll keep you posted.
Mine was fine before, with kind of longish throws and a soft feel. My wife was surprised I decided to change it.
But going from good to great is still an upgrade, right?
-juice
I have sold cars myself ('92 Legacy, '91 Sable)and been extremely disappointed with how much lower the sale price was than ANY of the car-pricing guides. And I sold two cars ('80 Datsun 200SX and '85 Maxima) where I got a lot more than the "retail" amount posted in NADA. The problem today lies in the fact that there are too many 3-year-old cars on dealer lots from expired leases, and selling a one-year-old car is difficult because you are competing with low-interest financing that is offered on new cars; used-car financing is almost always higher. You need to get lucky and find a cash buyer, meaning one who is paying existing money for the car, not using a car loan or home-equity loan. Then you have to account for the tax differential: a $15,000 trade-in allowance is worth $15,900 in a state with 6% sales tax. So if your dealer offers you $15,000, you need to get at least $16k just to make it worthwhile.
I also think that even though trade-in guides have a high mileage calculator, they don't allow a high enough deduction for the extra mileage. Unfortunately, most people will opt for a beat-on service-neglected car with 30,000 miles vs. a much-lower-priced 75,000 mile version of the same car, even if the high-mileage car has been babied.
As far as leasing, all that really matters is the amount you pay per month. Car salepeople will spend a lot of time talking about the "sell" price, residual, and interest rate used to calculate the lease payment because it's usually required by law. But the truth is that those numbers are all B.S. You need to know what you should (or are willing to) pay and let them worry about imputing the right numbers to arrive at that lease payment. You also need to specify that all costs are built into the payment because $500 here or $1,000 there up-front adds up to a lot per month when you amortize those "fees" into the 36 payments. Ideally you don't want to put down any money because it's gone if the car is stolen or totalled early in its life. Gap insurance only covers the gap between the value of the car and the insurance payment. Some dealers will tell you that the acquisition fee is standard, but anything can be worked into the monthly payment, my Subaru dealer even offered to do it that way. You should walk into the dealer when you pick up the car, pay the first month's lease payment, maybe a REFUNDABLE security deposit, and maybe $100 or so for tags/registration, and drive away.
I live in the NYC (Queens, NY) area and got a price guote of $23,500 for a 2001 Forester S (silver), premium package, auto transmission, cargo net, cargo cover, air filter, armrest extension, plus 2 free oil changes. Is this a good price, considering I'm ordering it and the region I'm in. Any info is helpful. Thanks in advance.
Oh, by the way, knowing that you guys are out there makes the purchase of a Forester that much easier.
-Jeff
-Frank P.
Congrats. Any photos to share?
If you prefer, e-mail me the photos and I'll post them on my web site. That goes for all new owners, BTW.
-juice
-Jeff
Thanks for the ideas. There is no Carmax dealer in Oregon. I don't know about other large used dealer chains, but I don't think there are any nearby. As far as sales tax goes, Oregon doesn't have any sales tax, so that is not a consideration.
I stopped by the dealership and spoke to the salesman who sold me my current and previous Subaru's and he said that they would not give me anything near what I wanted for my car, so it looks like I will be trying to sell it myself. I'll try advertising it for $19000 and be happy if I get $18500. For those who haven't followed this discussion from the beginning it is a 1999 Outback 5 speed with 19000 miles in perfect condition. Wish me luck!
My tip: ask for $18,900 or best offer. It's psychologically a lot less than $19k.
-juice
Just venting...the search goes on
Just add that right on to the "profit" column.
If you want to pay invoice, just offer $140 under invoice.
I know, game-playing...
-juice
Don't rent that U-haul yet. Oregon Income tax tops out at 9%, which I think is one of the highest rates in the country. And you hit the top rate at a pretty low income level - I forget just how much.
Do you think that pricing things at ,900 or ,999 prices really works? I just look at the price and instantly round it up in my head.
..Mike
I do the same thing you do, i.e., automatically round up the number in my head. Though as juice said, there's a psychological barrier to round numbers. I'm sure there's been a lot of market research into this; any psychologists present care to comment? I know one of you lurkers must be a psychologist
..Mike
..Mike
Carlsen Subaru is good in terms of attitude and upfront pricing. They usually also have a large inventory and they do let you test drive w/o a salesperson. However, I found them to be on the pricey side. At the time I was shopping for Forester, they charged $800 over invoice for S and S+ model, $600 for L model. They also carry Volvo, so you can compare Outback and XC side by side. Service seems to be good.
I ended up buying from the Livermore Subaru, paid $600 over invoice. $200 in savings as compared to Carlsen. Also not a bad experience, but they still did not deliver the armrest extension for my Forester (car was ordered with it in early May!), so I'm not sure whether to recommend them or not. They also carry Honda, so if you cross-shop with CR-V (like I did), it's a convenient place to check out both. They're close to freeway, and it's easy and fun to test-drive the car on the hills around. Don't know yet about the service.
The Subaru of Stevens Creek in San Jose is a more typical high-pressure dealership, with ignorant but pushy salespeople. Everything has to be haggled about. However, if you like something on their lot, and they want to move the car, and you don't mind haggling for hours, a good deal can be had. Just take a shower afterwards. They also carry Isuzu, so if you cross-shop with Rodeo, it's convenient. I heard that service there is not good.
The Downtown Subaru in Oakland. The so-so experience, seem to vary greatly from salesperson to salesperson. Very crowded dealership stuck in small downtown area (they also carry Toyota and Saab), hard to get car out for test drive, and then you're stuck in downtown traffic, with a salesperson on the back seat. Service is terrible (personal experience).
Ford-Subaru in Albany. Inventory is so-so, and salespeople are not very knowledgeable. Haggling is typical. May be a good place to compare Escape and Forester side by side. Not a good place for test-drive, unless you know Albany streets very well.
There's also Ron Price Subaru is South San Francisco and another one in Marin County. Never tried those.
I wonder about the Angels Camp Subaru/Isuzu. Someone posted here while ago that she bought Forester there, but did not elaborate. They are located in a very scenic area up in the mountains, so it's a good place to test-drive the Soob. They're in the area where Soobs are extremely popular but jobs are scarce, so I guess they employ knowledgeable people who appreciate their work, not the sales-drifters like many other dealerships. Angels Camp is not close to the Bay Area (about 100 mi?) but IF they are REALLY good, I can consider buying my next Soob from them.
Anyone can tell about their experience with the Angels Camp Subaru dealer?
Thanks for the tip, Patti!
Hills in the Bay Area?
Thanks for sharing the experiences. It'll come in handy to someone on the Crew I'm sure.
-juice
Back on topic: my wife is decided on a Forester. I'm relieved. She is trying to decide between used (98 or 99) and new, and between L and S ... any words of advice (I've read here for several months but would appreciate any direct comparisons or experiences, if you have them).
Take care.
Joe W>
(A) It was quite hard for me to find a used Forester, or, for that matter, any late-model used Subaru. Even though I live in a city with two (small) Subaru dealerships, I had to go nearly 100 miles out of town to find a used Forester, and even then counted myself lucky to have found a good deal. Part of this might be just that I'm not in one of the prime Subaru territories (not as common in Texas, I gather, as in snowier climes), but there also are simply fewer late-model Subarus out there compared with most major makes, and I think Subie owners probably hang onto them a lot longer than perhaps your average GM owner.
(B) Hey, let's face it, if I could've easily afforded a brand-new Forester, I would've bought one. I can make some good practical arguments for buying preowned (depreciation, in particular), but, bottom-line, it was really dictated by my budget.
The wheels in particular are a nice upgrade. I went from 15" steel on my L to 16" alloys with lower profile tires, and it's made a HUGE difference in handling.
Since the price difference on a used model will likely be small, spring for the S if you can.
You may not have much selection, though, they're few and far between.
-juice
-juice
Used Foresters are rare, the good used are even fewer. If I had to choose, I'd say go for new L as opposed used S. If you can afford new S, go for it, or even better for S+.
You get a 5 year powertrain warranty, so if you finance it for 60 payments you're not likely to have any surprise expenses.
Plus rates for a new-car loan are lower than for used-car loans. Just food for thought.
-juice
thanks especially for the info on the Phase II engine, juice ... I wasn't aware of that at all.
Re: the cold weather pkg. (mirrors, heated wiper area, etc.) Has that been on the S since 98? Or is it new also.]]
Take care.
Joe W.
-juice
1) Would a Subaru dealer be permitted by SOA to "swap out" the Firestones on a new vehicle for an equivalently price tire from another manufacturer in order to make a sale?
2) If yes to #1, what would the likelihood be of a dealer who WOULD perform such a swap? Has anyone tried this yet & if so, what were the results?
3) What other types/brands of tires do other Outback owners have/recommend for their vehicles? I realize that those crew members with later models ('99, '00) probably are still riding on their originals still, but I'm fishing for ideas/opinions if I get good results to questions #1 & 2.
Thanks for all of your help folks & hope to have a pleasant purchasing experience for my first "soobie".
Stephen
dealers. I noticed that your list included
dealers north of Stevens Creek (avoid S.C.
if at all possible!). Another couple of
guys to consider are Subaru of Santa Cruz
(best price, not much hassle but sometimes
seem a little too laid back when trying to
confirm order, etc) and there's a dealer in
Monterey (a friend got an 2K Outback Ltd
for 1% over invoice).
If I were gonna switch tires on an OB, I'd say go for the michillins that came on the pre-2000 outbacks. My uncle's '97 went 60K miles on the original tires and he only got rid of em cause one got punctured. (there was still plenty of tread on em)
-mike
My personal opinion on woodgrain trim is that you can get a better looking woodgrain trim from local shops. I'd personally go for brush stainless steel look or carbon fiber which you can get from a variety of places.
-Frank P
I just recently discovered I'm in love with the subie. I live in Toronto and a recent Aerospace Engineer grad. I drive a Mazda Protege and got stuck in the previous snow storms we had in Toronto. After much research, I learned about the subie and I'm now subiecrazy. Everytime I see a subie (OB/Forester) I drool with envy. Now, my girlfriend thinks I'm nuts over a car. To me this is not just a car but a special car. After test driving both I found the forester to be quicker.
I took my gf to test drive both of them as well and she gave me and the sales guy a shocker as she turn the steering suddenly at 90 km/h without warning and man, I taught we were gonna flipped! The Forester rolled to the left and right and my gf slammed on the breaks to regain control. And it did. Phew...I taught we were gonna do a 360. Atleast it handled well. I'm sold!
Unfortunatly I have to save up until I can afford one of these babies...now that the VDC is coming out...It's making me much harder to choose. Grr...Anyhow, if there's any one from Toronto that bought a subie, I like to know about your buying experince as we got burn on the Honda Accord wagon before we got the Protege. Salesman tooks us for a ride charging us $12k for a 150000km accourd 91' And of course we taught it was a good deal we bought it and later found out we got conned and we trid to get back our deposit ($1000) the refused and told us we had to buy the car. Well, thank god my gf is a lawyer she wrote a stern letter to Honda Canada and created some noise (or else) and lo and behold...they gladly refunded our $$. Sorry for writing too much but I'm a subie nuthead. Thanks.
Service seems pretty good too, although the only time I have been in for service was to have the "check engine" light code read out (was for the mass air flow sensor, nothing apparently wrong).
Chris
The Firestones carry a UTGQ rating of 500AB, which is set by the manufacturer. That's 500 tread life (very long), A for traction in wet braking, and B for temperature resistance. The tread looks biased for snow and rain.
I have Nitto NT460s, which Discount Tire Direct carries. Same size and speed and weight ratings, but they're 460AA rated. So they have a long tread life and good wet traction, but also have better heat resistance. They're more biased for performance.
So, I'd recommend those as long as you're not in the snow belt, and especially if you drive aggressively.
BTW, the Michelins from the '99 OB were 15" and 70 series, so they won't fit.
Dale: try to get something in writing that they will obtain and install the wood grain for free. Only then would I accept it.
-juice
I am so impressed by the information, advice and wealth of knowledge shared by the Subaru owners on this site. You make my car buying experience and future Subaru ownership flat out NJOYable! My thanks to you all.
Take care.
Joe W.
-mike
Service should be just as good even without the sticker. Of course, I've never needed dealer service so how would I know!
-juice
..Mike
..Mike
That blue is the same blue used on the Impreza. I like both, but it's funny because they appear different.
-juice