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Sure there are! I just saw one today, in fact, at a local gas station. It looked like it was in excellent condition.
Lots of people do give the PERCEPTION of having the money. If you dig deeper, they are swimming in debt with huge monthly car payments and leases for their lives! I have not had a car payment in decades, no mortage either - how can one argue with that?
The on-going mortgage meltdown crisis is a great example of a similar perception problem to keep up(instead of down) with the Jonses.
Hyundai does--the Elantra SE with leather package. It has all the safety equipment you listed. From my "sit tests", it has at least as much usable rear seat room for two as the Accord, and a bigger trunk. More fuel-efficient also. But not as powerful as the Accord or Sonata (or Altima). But also a lot less expensive.
The Sonata GLS I4 MT and SE I4 meet all your criteria except for leather. As do the Accord LX and LX-P. Aftermarket, maybe?
That creates a fantastic buying opportunity for a much improved quality car today at bargain prices! That's great for consumers like you & me. Besides the $10K price difference with competing Japanese cars including rebates, you have the added 10 yr powertrain warranty, the 5 yr bumper to bumper coverage and a lot of options thrown in, some of which are not offered by the competition.
But I believe the top line 2008 Sonata Limited comes with leather and an I4 option that may have MT.
Yeah...try 6.6 seconds. And the Accord V6 got the same exact 0 to 60 time, but was faster in the quarter-mile by .2 seconds and 2 mph in that comparison test (C/D 12/05). The Accord is the faster of the two and will leave the Sonata behind after 60 mph.
That Accord you supposedly "embarrassed" wasn't even trying. If it were, it would've been a tie.
A comparably equipped Accord or Camry was at least $30K.
WRONG. The 2007 Accord EXL-V6 (Top of the line) has a STICKER of $27,400. The new Accord EXL-V6 has a sticker of under $29k. What you have posted is completely false information, unless you looked at an Accord with built-in Voice Activated Navigation, but then your Sonata wouldn't be comparable would it?
I embarrassed a 2007 V6 Accord that tried to hustle me at a stop light. I believe C & D with their clocked 0 - 60mph times of 6.4secs.
Then he must not have been trying hard to "hustle" you at a stoplight (for someone interested in drag-racing I'm surprised you bought a midsize sedan - I'm 20 and don't use my car to race these other geniuses responsible for making my insurance rates sky-high; no at-fault accidents, no-tickets EVER, and my insurance is double that of my mother's because I'm a young man).
From Car and Driver:
In acceleration it (Sonata) leaves the Toyota and Ford far behind, tying the fleet Honda at 6.6 seconds from 0 to 60, then dropping back to finish the quarter-mile at 15.3 seconds at 93 mph. //
Honda claims a mild 4-hp increase in engine output, to 244 at 6250 rpm. We've never thought the Accord was underpowered; Honda apparently thought otherwise. The 2006 Accord ripped through the acceleration test to 60 mph in 6.6 seconds, a tie with the Sonata, then strongly broke to the front to clear the quarter-mile in 15.1 seconds at 95 mph.
Just checked the Motor Trend article comparing Sonata, Accord, Fusion, and Camry. In this article, the Sonata had the advantage in acceleration, or seemed to anyway. They tested a lesser GLS V6 model (less weight than the LX from the C&D test) and used a 2005 Accord, which didn't benefit from the power bump. Here are the results from that test.
With the group's second-highest horsepower (235), the Sonata predictably posted the second-fastest 0-to-60-mph time of 6.8 seconds//
However, the combination of their eager wheelspin--and the car's 240 bubbling horsepower--took the Accord to 60 mph in a group-best 6.6 seconds.
Yes, I have all this posted, but I'm not interested in drag-racing other kiddos on the street. That should be left at the track, or drag strip.
Very true and the inital offerings from Hyundai and Kia were pretty pathetic.
Then a company called Daewoo tried to elbow themselves into an already overcrowded market. Tried and failed.
I find it interesting how some salespeople pop up in these comparison discussions involving Hyundais to throw out generalities that have no bearing on the discussion such as, "Then a company called Daewoo...". All that indicates to me is that these salespeople, and their parent companies, are worried about the steadily improving Hyundais such as the Sonata and what that means for selling their cars like the Accord that go for several thousand dollars more than a comparably-equipped Sonata.
As the folks at C/D said re Honda (and Toyota) engineers, "We guarantee it's now a thorn in their sides and that they're losing sleep over how good the next generation Sonata might be." So, better bash the Sonata with generalities like "no one wants a Hyundai" now--it will be increasingly harder to do so come March with the '09 Sonata, and in a few years with the next-gen Sonata.
The steering with a little more slop and the strange center stack design was a turn-off for me vs. my Accord. Of course with the next purchase, it would be anybody's game once again.
I didn't bash Hyundai and I was quick to agree that they are much improved. I didn't think they would survive and they have.
I can't understand why anybody would buy one given the other choices out there but that's just the way I feel.
Another knife in the pie. An already crowded pie and, yes, I'm sure they are considered a "thorn".
People should buy and drive what they like.
I'm not worried. If they do become a force to contend with, it'll be well past my retirement age.
I think I've found the problem... its in the way you said criticizing "your" car. It's not a personal attack. I'm not a Honda engineer, and I doubt you are a Hyundai engineer. If I said I didn't like your dishwasher because I didn't like the controls, even though it had the same power to blast away food and cost less, would you be offended at that too? I can promise you my goal isn't to force an opinion on anyone, but instead to share it...to put it out there. Should someone question it, I enjoy explaining further. It's why I love these forums - my goal is not to get anyone riled up, and if I've managed to, I'm sure sorry.
And, making broad assumptions is a dangerous thing to do. I drove the Sonata in a test drive. You might say it "drove me" away because of the softer-than-I-prefer handling and an interior design (center stack, namely) that was not cohesive, and quite simply, not pretty in my opinion. It's all objective though; you are entitled to your opinion just as I am mine. The Honda felt like money well spent to me, not to you. I don't have a problem with that!
I drove one too and the mushy ride turned me off.
Some people like a soft floaty ride. A lot of people buy Camrys and Buicks for that reason. My wife's uncle thought Hondas and BMW's rode like a "buckboard"...His words.
It'a a matter of personal taste.
Bingo.
Here's another reason: some people like the feel of a V6 vs. an I4. With the Sonata, you can buy a well-equipped V6 for the same price as the base Accord with I4. I have no problem understanding why that would be attractive to some people.
Me neither. I'm not in that group (8 sec 0-60 is plenty for me!), but I can understand it for sure.
In my 40 years(twice your age and long before your parents ever dreamt of copulating) of driving, I never had an accident and a speeding ticket. I enjoy spirited speeding, but one has to be smart about it and use a bait upfront to clear the smokies - you make the guy lead at say 100mph and he feels great (ego stroking) - but you are using him as smokie flusher. WIN-WIN for me.
The only accident I(i.e. my car) had was 28 yrs ago when a dead man (with massive heart attack) hit my parked car and others on the side of road while I visited my wife who just gave birth to our first son.
The guy in the Accord tried alright as hard as he can as he was half a car length behind alongside as we were going 75 in a 45 zone. It was all fun
Talk about pathetic - the initial offerrings from Hyundai and Kia with smoother 4cyl engines would make those early Honda cars to shame.
Some of the Daewoo cars are showing up in other car brands like GM's Aveo and others I cannot recall (Suzuki?)now. Out of misery, comes some opportunity, always...
I just read about Hyundai shutting down Sonata factory for a week in an effort to reduce inventory, and in that thread, a guy had the following to say...
"The Sonata is an average car with a lot of features for a good price. Nothing more. If I was trying to get a loaded car with all the toys for the lowest price I could find it would be on my list, but if I could swing the extra couple grand or live with a few less gizmos I'd look at an Aura/Malibu or Accord or a Mazda 6/Fusion first. For that matter, the Fusion (even without big discounts) has a similar feature/price quotient and is a much better looking, sportier sedan for my tastes.
But the Hyundai is a good family car, and Hyundai reliability has come a long way. Short term, anyway, I don't think the "new and improved" Hyundai has been producing cars long enough to see how they hold up after 8-10 years and 2-3 owners."
And that I find to be a pretty good example of how Sonata is seen in the market today. The bottom line is, Hyundai's arsenal is limited to more feature that they can advertise for minimum price. Not a bad strategy, but that doesn't make it a selling point to buyers who can afford to spend a little more... then they start looking for qualities that goes beyond spec sheet.
As for TCO, we've already discussed how there is not a $4k difference in TCO for a Sonata GLS vs. Accord LX in the real world, one in which people pay typical prices for cars. So why re-hash it?
If you want to characterize a (typical) $5k difference in purchase price as "a little more", be my guest. $5k with associated interest or opportunity costs over 10 years is not a small amount of money to me, and to many other people.
P.S. My '01 Elantra is now in its 8th year and 2nd owner, still runs and looks like new. And it's considerably inferior to the Sonata.
I've already pointed out some concerns I have about Edmunds' TCO numbers, at least when comparing the 2007 Sonata to 2007 Accord, which we did earlier. Some of the issues I have with their numbers are:
* They added $1600 in options to the Sonata GLS, even though it already has more equipment (e.g. ESC with traction control) than does the Accord LX. They added no options to the Accord. So that makes the starting price of the Sonata $1600 more than it should be for this TCO comparison, plus added tax and financing costs.
* They goofed on the sales tax calculation. In MN, it's calcuated AFTER rebates. So that makes their tax + license figure about $200 more than it should be (calculating sales tax on the car w/o options and after rebate).
* I think they messed up on the depreciation numbers for the Sonata. They say first-year depreciation on the Accord is $2927, and $7386 on the Sonata. That means that using the correct sales price of $14,907 (Edmunds' TMV for the Sonata with no options), they are saying a 1-year-old Sonata GLS would sell for $7521. That just doesn't jive with reality. If you don't agree, check out prices of year-old Sonatas and tell us what you find out.
The numbers for fuel, insurance, repairs, and maintenance are all pretty close, although I don't see why the Accord's maintenance costs are estimated to be about $600 more than the Accord's since these are both I4s, and the Sonata has a timing chain (the Accord has a belt, right?).
So given these issues, I think it's hard to draw a clear winner from this particular comparison. But if you want to trust Edmunds' numbers, these are interesting:
Accord value after 5 years: $8794
Sonata value after 5 years: $5992
Difference: $2802
So that leads to a question: if someone can buy the Sonata for $4000-5000 less than the Accord, which car will most likely have the lowest TCO over five years? I'd bet on the Sonata. I don't think the differences in expenses like maintenance, repairs, insurance, and fuel will offset the up-front difference plus the extra taxes and financing costs, and interest on the money saved up front. But I think it's important for people to run their own numbers based on the prices they'll pay, miles driven etc.
One would have to buy a Sonata for $5K less to "keep up" with an Accord. I wonder why Hyundai offers that kind of discount because MSRP to MSRP difference isn't that much...
the Accord has a belt, right?
No. That said, instead of trying to dig up harder to make Accord sound more expensive, try showing the world that Sonata actually costs less to own via a standard comparison like TCO (feel free to use any source that you feel is better, I used TCO).
You won't believe this, but while in the Wendy's drive thru today, I got REAR-ENDED! I'm waiting to hear back from the other woman's insurance! She hit me hard enough to skid my tires a bit, knock me forward, and dent my bumper. Luckily I was in my 1996 Accord, not the 2006.
I wouldn't feel so bad about it if I hadn't just gotten my car back VERY recently from the body shop where I was clipped on the interstate at 70 MPH. I have such BAD LUCK! Never caused one, but I've been run off the road into a guardrail, clipped, rear-ended twice, and have run over a shovel (in heavy traffic, nowhere to swerve) all in my five years of driving!
It was a Honda-on-Honda travesty! Her big young Honda was picking on my little old Honda. It should be a crime.
The silver lining in this is that in the first accident, your car's front end got some fresh paint, and now the rear bumper looks like it will be freshened-up--all at someone else's expense.
By asking whether the 2007 Accord I4 has a timing belt, I was asking someone who claims to know a lot about the Accord to clarify for me and others what it has, a belt or a chain. I've read in other discussions that the Accord has a timing belt, so I wasn't sure. Next time I'll ask someone else.
I don't expect you are going to answer my question as to whether you think it's reasonable that the one-year resale price of a Sonata with 15k miles is about $7500, and if you have been able to find any data to support that.
And I really am not hurt much. My back has a little catch in it at the moment, but when you are stopped, and jolted enough to move me from in front of the talk-box at the drive-thru, I guess that's a pretty hard hit considering I had my foot on the brake (my tires skidded/chirped when I was moved forward). I'm amazed there isn't more damage than there is. Now I just wait on the insurance company...
Honda doesn't complicate things with trim levels like most other automakers do. If you select Accord LX, it is what it is. I went with that, and compared it with GLS/5MT. Why couldn't you do the same?
As for timing chain versus belt, now you know. And you should have known well a few days ago if not earlier that Accord I-4 uses timing chain (since MY2003. This was discussed when timing belt was being. And even if it didn't, its replacement doesn't show up until 105K mile mark (and when it does, it costs $350 to replace, as is going to be for the second time in my 1998).
I don't expect you are going to answer my question as to whether you think it's reasonable that the one-year resale price of a Sonata with 15k miles is about $7500, and if you have been able to find any data to support that
Now am I supposed to tell you that TCO is not a number I came up with? But I can see why the depreciation would be higher for Sonata. It is called "resale value".
Believe it or not, Sonata is not a highly sought after car. Its image is also diluted by being one of the rental queens. Couple it to the fact that the warranty gets shaved to half upon resale and that Hyundai offers massive rebates, one can see why it doesn't have resale value.
You say one could buy a brand new GLS/MT for $15K (MSRP plus destination is about $18K). So, how much do you think one would want to pay for a used Sonata with 15K miles? $10K sounds logical to me. But consider the fact that one pays $2K in TTL etc. So, it doesn't seem like a far fetched idea that Sonata will show a massive $7K deprecition after just one year. This has been a long time problem with domestic brands (who have long competed on price).
And like I said, if you have issues with TCO, take it to them who came up with those numbers. I'm sure they didn't pull those out of thin air.
van
How about someone explaining why Hyundai can't ever sell more than 12,000 Sonatas a month.
They sell that many Camrys in a week.
Well, that's not what I'm seeing out there for one-year-old Sonatas. It's lower than I'm seeing for one-year-old Elantras. Consider that according to Edmunds' TCO, a five-year-old base Sonata is worth less than their own TMV was ($5950) for a 5-1/2 year old Elantra GLS MT last year. So, no, I don't think their depreciation numbers are realistic at all because they don't correspond to the real world.
Comparing TCO using Edmunds' methodology for a 2007 Sonata GLS, no options, to an Accord LX gives a TCO of about 46 cents a mile vs. 45 cents. If the Sonata would actually be worth a little over $6000 for a private-party sale at the end of five years instead of what Edmunds' TCO says it will be, it's a wash. BTW, Edmunds' TMV for a five-year old base Sonata MT with ABS and 75k miles in clean condition is--guess what?--just over $6000. And the current Sonata is a far better/desirable car. So, you can take that one-cent difference in TCO as gospel if you want. I'll keep my eye on what's happening in the real world.
Hyundai did sell 20,000 a month a couple of years ago. But that was when they were shipping I4s from Korea and were selling heavily to fleets. With about 10k Santa Fes a month being sold, 15k a month is the limit for the Sonata unless Hyundai wants to ship from Korea again. They may be striving more to get more profit per unit than max out sales, e.g. cutting fleet sales and incentives (now just $1k on the 2008s).
And please don't keep telling me Sonata is a more desirable car. It may be to you, but most of the world seems to disagree with you (and numbers back it up). Desirable cars don't lose money or start a new model year with rebate being a permanent fixture.
350.00 would be be for a belt and nothing else and those would be cheap labor rates. A lot of shops are at 100.00/hr. or more these days.
Talk about saleproof!
As for bias... I don't own a Sonata. But you own an Accord. So, who has the bias?