Subaru Crew - Future Models II

lucien2 · January 2003

this is the Subaru Future Models discussion, not the F-150 Maintenance and Repair forum. We haven't got the slightest clue.

Karen_S · January 2003

I showed joed17 to the proper discussion in Pickups.

subewannabe · January 2003

Autoweek says "20,000 to mid $30,000 "range .I hope that means $30,500, not $35,000 to get a GT wagon! Mid-thirties is way out on a limb!
Mark

cptplt · January 2003

R & T (or C & D) tested a WRX with some mod from a CA company(usually does Miata mods) which boosted power to about 260 or 280hp and the company claims the stock tranny is more than adequate for that power. People are simply abusing the car most of the time if not all of the time when they have a problem with it!

rsholland · January 2003

Subaru has shown, with the 2.5 STi, that as far as marketing is concerned, a rigid adherence to the 2.0 WRC displacement formula, is not an issue for selling cars to North America.

With that in mind, I can't help but think, at some point, the base WRX will also get a 2.5 turbo. My guess is that it would the same (state of tune) as whatever the Legacy 2.5 GT gets, which will probably be ~ 250-260 HP. It will probably show up when the Impreza gets redesigned for MY06 or MY07.

Bob

lucien2 · January 2003

if they might move away from Impreza as the WRC car. Mitsu is going with Colt, Pug is running the smaller 205..... Maybe in a couple years we'll see a new hatch from Soob Sti V.1?

kens · January 2003

Bob,

That was one of my guesses too. I see you were also over at the i-club thread regarding the 2.5 turbo Forester:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=297476

I was having a debate with another i-clubber about the possibility (and praticality) of having a 2.5 turbo WRX.

Since emissions is a big hurdle for Subaru, I think it actually might make sense for Subaru to put the 2.5T in the WRX and turbo Forester also. Plus, the 2.5T will help address the low-end torque needs as well. I don't think the material cost of the 2.0T and 2.5T would be that much different either.

The fellow I was debating with said it doesn't make sense to have several models with the same engine tuned to different levels. As we've seen with Volkswagen-Audi and Nissan, using the same engine with different tuning does work quite well.

I think the turbo Forester will tell us a lot about the upcoming engine configurations for SOA. If it indeed comes with a 2.5 turbo, then I wouldn't be surprised if the WRX eventually made the switch too. Why have only one trim in a model line using a unique engine?

Ken

fandc · January 2003

An old friend is currently selling Subarus for a living. His waiting list for the STi is fairly short, so he was trying to tempt me.

My response: "Not with a teenager on my insurance. Besides, I'm waiting for the B4."

His answer: "We're expecting them in the fall of 03. Want to place an order now?".

Dear Santa, what I want next Christmas ....

jimmyp1 · January 2003

I was at my dealer yesterday getting ready to do this clutch stuff, and he said the same thing, to which I replied "wait, you mean we might get a year or two of the Turbo Legacy before the redesign?" and he said, "yep". Very, very interesting. I meant to come home and mention it here, but I forgot. I guess I would wait until the redesign so that the technology/platform could have a year or two to work out the kinks, but, man would that be tempting.

Jim

kens · January 2003

Jim,

I think it wouldn't be out of the question to see a turbo Legacy GT between now and the redesign. Sure, the engine is new, but with the WRX, STi and now Turbo Forester, the Legacy GT line will be hurting bad for some power.

I wouldn't be sure if the Legacy GT turbo would get a 5MT (or at least the current one), but the sport-shift 4EAT and VTD would be a nice match.

Yes, it is kind of tempting!

Ken

subearu · January 2003

Do you think they'll preview these 'hot' Legacy models at any of the upcoming autoshows? They wouldn't just start selling 'em in the fall without promoting 'em somewhat. They just have to reveal 'em at one of the shows.

I'm hoping that the Chicago show will be where they decide to reveal any plans for the Legacy. A LPT 2.5H4 would be just dandy, although I wouldn't care if they happened to through the H6 in instead. I'm getting very anxious about this whole thing now!

maybe if everyone says it with me...dark blue B4, dark blue B4, dark blue B4...

-Brian

bkaiser1 · January 2003

A few issues back in Autoweek (I think, it could have one of the other ones I get) had a great article on the 05 Legacy range and commented with reasonable authority that turbo H6 was planned for 05 as the top engine. That sounds too good to be true, but so did a 300hp WRX with a 2.5l before last week! Time will tell I guess, but my Outback suddenly feels sooooo sloooow. It's going to be a long wait!
B

rsholland · January 2003

Another prediction...

I bet eventually we will see the 2.5t in 3 states of tune: High-boost (STi). Moderate boost (WRX, Legacy GT turbo). And low-boost (Forester and Baja).

It makes sense, from a production standpoint, for SOA to streamline the engine lineup. Doing away with the 2.0 turbo, from North America, I think makes a lot of sense.

Also, if you remember, in the FHI 5-year plan, there was mention of a new small car, beneath the Impreza lineup. Is this to replace the Justy, which is still sold in Europe? Or will it replace the Pleo? Or will it replace both? My guess is that it's replacement for the Justy. If that's the case, I can see that vehicle becoming Subaru's future rally-car platform, and could get the 2.0t, as the top model.

Bob

kens · January 2003

I bet eventually we will see the 2.5t in 3 states of tune: High-boost (STi). Moderate boost (WRX, Legacy GT turbo). And low-boost (Forester and Baja)

I agree 100%. The R&D for the 2.5T is a sunk cost. It would make sense for Subaru to capitalize on it and streamline by removing the 2.0T. I just wonder if the H6T is now going to happen.

Ken

rsholland · January 2003

I'm certain it will happen, especially if Subaru plans to penetrate the $40K market. Unfortunately peons like myself, will just have to watch & wish...

Bob

paisan · January 2003

Wait for the '05

Then I can better afford your 2.2t

-mike

joybell · January 2003

The dealer did not have any brochures of the 2004 Impreza, but he claims the wagon version will also change, not only the sports car version, and that the price will not be that much more than the 2003. On edmunds, only the 2004 WRX is pictured. What about the new wagon? I also called Subaru Canada but got a bozo on the line who read out from a 2003 brochure (the same one I already have). No help there.

rsholland · January 2003

All Imprezas will change. I think you will see more info on the rest of the Impreza lineup released at the Chicago Car Show next month.

Bob

joybell · January 2003

OK, I guess I'm just a little anxious!

rsholland · January 2003

If you go to some of Subaru's international sites; Australia, New Zealand or the UK; you can get a sense for what the '04 TS will look like. The grille insert is slightly different from the WRX and STi. The restyled Impreza is already on sale there.

Keep in mind, those markets use a 2.0L engine, not a 2.5L engine, and some models have the dual-range transmission.

Bob

rsholland · January 2003

http://www.public.fotki.com/RallyeX/western_us_2004/

bluesubie · January 2003

Saw this posted on nasioc.

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=41995&a=a&bt=legacy+turbo&arc=n

Does this mean it's "official" now? :-)

-Dennis

paisan · January 2003

If the answer is No, then No it's not official

-mike

rsholland · January 2003

You won't hear anything "official" until it shows up on your door step. There was no "official" announcement of a US-spec STi until 5:00 Jan 6th, at the Detroit Auto Show press announcement. Prior to 1/6/03, SOA was either very vague or denied the car was even coming. That's the way SOA does things.

I think the the Turbo Forester/Baja/Legacy rumors you can take to the bank. I'm certain the US-spec Forester and Baja will get turbos for '04; less certain about the Legacy for '04 (yes for '05 however), but getting more confident each passing day.

Bob

rsholland · January 2003

Interesting to note that the Forester turbo will debut first, according to AN. My guess is that it *could* be announced at the Chicago Auto Show next month. If not then, then certainly at the new York show in April.

More interesting is the fate of the Baja and Legacy turbo. It sounds like they may(?) be introduced at the same time, which leads to the next question...

'04 or '05 model(s)?

Originally it was reported that the new Legacy would be an '05 model. More recently I've been hearing rumors that it may be introduced in Japan this spring. I understand there will be a Toyko Motor Salon coming up soon. Will it be introduced then? If that's the case, might we get it this summer as an '04 model?

Even more interesting is the Baja. If an all-new Legacy debuts here this summer, would Subaru put that turbo in the current body? Or would the turbo Baja also be built on the all-new Legacy platform?

This I find hard to believe. I can't see Subaru spending all this money on the (current) Baja for just a 1-year model run. Unless the (next) new Baja shares a lot of parts with the current model; which would make it really not all-new, now would it? Hmmm...

Bob

paisan · January 2003

Yup, and I didn't believe a word of STi-hype til the facts were laid out by SOA on 1/6 @ 5pm

Hee Hee

-mike

bluesubie · January 2003

I had to look at that again. I thought they were quoting an SoA or FHI rep.

-Dennis

kens · January 2003

It's a tough call. Given the new STi, updated WRX and (with almost certainty) a turbo Forester, SOA probably has more than enough new-model hype to last them this year. However, the Legacy GT will really be viewed as being underpowered given the new models. But then again, does Subaru want to intro a new GT engine just to intro an all new chassis sometime next year? Hmmmm...

Ken

subearu · January 2003

without any Legacy hype, sales of it will soften. What would be the big deal of just throwing in a new motor into the existing body? It truely would be a Special Edition (SE)!

-Brian

twrx · January 2003

Check out Misubishi's site. They have a fairly complete section about the Evo 7 (except price). Specs are nice and it sure does slot in between WRX and STI. I was surprised that it is a 5 speed manual rather than a 6 speed. Recarro seats look nice. Water spray intercooler. 271 hp. Brembo brakes. limited slip diffs. No "DCCD" like STI. Looks like it may be quite a bit heavier. 3265 is listed weight. WRX sedan is 3080 (I think). Any weight on STI yet? I wonder if the Al suspension components balance water spray components, special diffs etc?
Anyway don't want to seem like a traitor but I just had to sign up for their contest to win one.
TWRX

paisan · January 2003

I looked at the EVO on the US sight. No front LSD on it. And those sprayers might be what kicks the HP to 271, so if you don't use em, you are limited in HP?

-mike

locke2c · January 2003

the forged aluminum control arms are no lighter than the stamped steel ones, just stronger.

the STi shouldn't be heavier than the standard WRX, but don't expect it to be significantly lighter either.

-Colin

tenchijin · January 2003

With front LSD and clutch plate style center diff, it should be somewhat heavier.

I also have it from a VERY reliable source that the reason the STi doesn't ship with a sound system is that the weight of the sound system puts it into the next weight bracket, which adds to the import cost.

I may have the chance to drive one around may, so I'll do a review if that comes to pass (it should).

rsholland · January 2003

STi specs
http://www.subaru.net/usproduct/2004/Stiinitspec.asp

Pixs From Detroit
http://www.subaru.net/events/2003/Detroit/set/index.htm

STi, WRX, Baja Sport, moonroof, Baja hard bed cover, WRX seats, 17" (not BBS) optional WRX wheels on wagon, etc.

Bob

paisan · January 2003

I wonder if the 300hp is with the water sprayers engaged or disengaged?

-mike

ateixeira · January 2003

I just choked on my rally bread! Holy intercooled turbos, Batman!

I'm...speechless.

-juice

rsholland · January 2003

There's a thread over on the nasioc STi forum area, about the "completeness" of the new STi. I have to agree 100%. The car is virtually perfect as it stands. Oh, there are a few things I wouldn't mind seeing, as options, but given the mission statement of this vehicleit's "complete" as is.

Wouldn't it be great if we could use that word completewhen talking about other Subie vehicles? Some are close (WRX), some have a long way to go (Baja), the rest fall somewhere in between.

Does that mean I want to see 300 HP and Brembro brakes on every Subie? Not at all. What I'm saying, given the particular audience and/or market slot of any specific model, that it be as "complete" as possible, whatever that means.

I'd love to be able to some day say, regarding every Subie vehicle: "Don't touch a thing, it's perfect as is!"

Bob

kens · January 2003

"Completeness" is a relative term. I agree that there is probably far less one would need to do for the STi to achieve it's intended purpose of pure performance driving at it's price point compared to other models. However there are already multiple threads about people talking about how to modify the STi when it even hasn't hit the market yet! For example, the colossal rear wing is getting some flak.

The more focused one's target customer/intended application, the easier it becomes to deliver a product that has features that have near-unanimous approval. Products like the Legacy, Forester and Baja will have a much greater challenge satisfying it's broader cross-section of customers. It's a tougher proposition.

One way to get to near "completeness" for a broad audience is to offer lots of options so vehicles can be mass customized. The funny thing is that consumers often look down on that type of product structure as the auto manufacturer nickel and diming for every option!

Ken

rsholland · January 2003

You will never satisfy everyone. But if you can get 80-90% in agreement, that's better than having only 50-60% in agreement.

My sense over at nasioc is that, Subaru has achieved 90-95% agreement on the STias is. On the other hand, the Baja (over there) has 5% agreement (if that!) as it stands. Here, my guess is the Baja achieves perhaps 30-40% agreement???

Bob

paisan · January 2003

What the STi HP will be w/o using the sprayers on the IC?

-mike

ateixeira · January 2003

Keep in mind it'll cost $32 grand. Though the VDC MSRPs for that much and isn't complete (no 5 speed auto, no Shiftronic).

But it's easier to do so at a higher price point. Or, looked at another way, I'd argue that the Legacy L/SE is complete given its price range. For $20 grand you get ABS and AWD, CD and power everything. At that price some Camcords lack ABS.

Diesels, eh? Definitely need those for Europe, so it'll be interesting to see what they do. I doubt they'll even be boxers. They'll probably just license and build Isuzu's small engines.

I like the stepped roof, I hope the new Legacy has good head room. Though that means maybe they can fit the huge moonroof from the Forester instead of the double small ones.

But yeah, tach in the center and all, the STi will be schweet. Trim rings around the gauges, they're even getting the details right.

I think Patti is in the dungeon, though I'm really proud that she took one for the team and got us everything we wanted.

Does it really have climate control, though? Seems odd to have that and then delete a radio.

-juice

rsholland · January 2003

I think in some ways the Outback Sport, from my perspective, is actually more *complete* than a WRX wagon. It's a matter of giving the most bang-for-the-buck, at any given price point.

Bob

rsholland · January 2003

Paul Hansen's editorial on the US-spec STi! He's predicting big things for this new 2.5 turbo. I couldn't agree more!

http://www.apexjapan.com/

Bob

rsholland · January 2003

 New Legacy will be introduced this summer. The word "flagship" is mentioned when describing the vehicle. Is this the "flagship" that was mentioned several months back?

 The Forester will be sold in Indiaunder a GM nameplate!

 Lots of work going on with CVTs.

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4340

Bob

kullenberg · January 2003

Either of you have a feel for the bump in price the Turbo Forester will command?
Cheers
Pat

jimmyp1 · January 2003

that gels with what my dealer was saying about North America getting the 2.5t in the Legacy by the end of 2003. The only difference is that he seemed to think it might show up in the current body style. Sure seems like SoA, or FHI in general, is ramping up introductions of new models more quickly than we've been lead to believe in months past. Not that I'm complaining.

Jim

lark6 · January 2003

>>The Forester will be sold in India—under a GM nameplate!<<

A very bad sign. Will I have to buy my next Forester at a GM dealer? Will I have to take it to Mr. Goodwrench? Not comforting thoughts.

Ed

p0926 · January 2003

Pat (Ski Beech) K- I'm guessing that the turbo Forester will carry a $2k premium. Anybody else want to hazard a guess?

-Frank P.

cusafr · January 2003

Bob: Does that story say the Legacy will be new this summer? I thought the new one was MY05? If MY04 has a new Legacy w/turbo, I'm in. And, I know the "flagship" vehicle has been mentioned before, but I have forgotten, is that a totally new vehicle that we don't know anything about yet?

Thanks for your response,

CUSAFR

ateixeira · January 2003

CVT for minis and subcompacts, though, probably models not sold here.

I'm hoping the Forester turbo replaces the Premium models in the lineup, with a price close to those, maybe a grand higher. Subaru should price it carefully, it's a compact SUV.

If FHI introduces the new Legacy in the summer, we still won't get it 'til next year. That's probably the intro date for the japanese market. Still, it'll be nice to preview it.

-juice

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles