Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland

I think you will see a larger sedan than the Legacy. My guess it will be built off the up-coming 7-passenger crossover platform. There's been nothing official from Subaru on this, other than some vague and obscure comments about future products.

Bob

ateixeira

You're looking at the mainstream, last time Subaru went there they got clobbered. Remember 1995? Sales were at 100k/year when they tried to go head to head with Honda and Toyota. Those guys have 10 times the resources, probably more than 10 times.

I'd add sub-classes in the mid-size segment. The Accord, Camry, and Altima are big and roomy. Only the Altima is even remotely sporty, and offers a MT with the V6.

The Mazda6 is a lot smaller, more sporting. Altima sort of serves both sides, but material quality is poor so I might even drop it from the list. I think the Legacy will compete here, entry level models at least.

On the high end, it'll compete with the Audi A4 and the Acura TSX, which are also smallish but very sporting. Passat is also sort of soft for this segment.

So I see Legacy competing with the Audi A4, the Acura TSX, and the Mazda6, primarily.

Subaru will soon have a full-size platform and I bet a big sedan will come from that. That's the one that might satisfy you more.

-juice

[Deleted User]

I concur with Juice's comment about being a niche vehicle. Subabu offers something that most don't.

I hope you're right about the larger platform, Bob and Juice. My wife and I are looking at replacing our Legacy soon, but we're going to wait and see exactly how the baby changes our lives. We know everything will be turned upside down, we just don't know what our vehicle needs will be down the road.

ateixeira

Having a baby? Think wagon. Forget the Accord sedan, sedans are *useless*. Your stroller alone will fill up the entire trunk. Our 626 was the biggest car in our fleet yet got the least usage (despite having the most problems).

So in that case if you want sporty look at the Legacy GT, A4 Avant, or Mazda6 wagons. If you want comfy check out the Passat wagon, Volvo V50, or Outback.

-juice

hondafriek

I concur with juice, forget about a sedan and think wagon.

 Cheers Pat.

[Deleted User]

Did I mention we have two golden retrievers, too? Now I think we're in minivan territory (NOOOOOOOOO!!!!) :-)

ateixeira

Nah, get a wagon with a dog guard.

-juice

robr2

Then where does the stroller go??

[Deleted User]

Just what I was wondering. I guess for everyday type of driving, a wagon would work if you could put the child on one side of the rear seat and then all her stuff next to her, and the dogs in the cargo.

Our weekend trips around the area would be tough, though. We already completely fill the passenger and trunk space of the Legacy with people, dogs, and stuff when we go for an extended stay anywhere. If we only do a few trips a year, I suppose we could rent a larger vehicle for those occasions. Hmmm. Tough descisions. This is why we're going to wait and see what the aftermath is starting in three weeks (from today!)

-Ty

nowakj66

A lockable roof pod might help with the long trips.

ateixeira

Depends on your dogs, I guess. With one kid you strap him/her in the middle, you could have 2 lap dogs on either side, harnessed down, if they're friendly. Or put the stroller in the rear foot well if it fits, and the dogs in the back.

Take the dogs with you! Take the stroller, too. Seriously. Test fit it all.

One very nice thing about the Outback and Forester is that the higher seats make getting in and out easier. You have to bend over on lower cars, climb up to higher trucks. Those two Subies are just right in height.

-juice

[Deleted User]

All great points. The lapdog thing won't work, though. They're too big to comfortably sit on the seats.

To keep this on topic, and speaking of higher seats, what's the raised height like on the '05 Outback? Is it noticeably taller? Subaru certainly is taking a lot of flak for that transition to truck classification. Even Car Talk is giving them a hard time. If Subaru was the only car maker to use the loophole to their advantage, I'd understand the critcism. But since this is a WIDEspread issue across all the makers, I don't think the harsh comments are deserving.

-Ty

bigelm

locke2c

the H6 is not meaningfully heavier than an H4 turbo, FYI. a turbocharger and associated plumbing are at least 75lb.

~c

robr2

A minivan is nothing to be ashamed about!! We've had our Odyssey for 4 years now and we're all happy with it. Handles nicely, looks good (IMHO), carries all our stuff, works great for Depot/Lowe's runs.

Although now that the kids are older (7 and 4) we don't have to haul as much stuff. Our next moves look like a sport wagon and an SUT.

c_hunter

One of the biggest doozies I read over at Nabisco was in the tire and wheels thread, guy buys 04 STI and then takes a pair of pliars to roll his fenders, he was complaining about the paint chipping when he was doing this.

Let me guess, just to make it worse, he did not use a heat gun and he did it in sub-zero temps, right?

Yep, this is a classic example of the kinds of stuff you read on Nabisco that can induce heartburn....

Craig

hondafriek

I actually posted and asked him why didn't go the whole hog and get a big hammer and beat the hell out of it. I try to be quiet over there and not be nasty, but this one was so blatantly stupid I could not resist.

  Cheers Pat.

rsholland

I too have a golden retriever, a 7 year-old 95 lb female named Annie. I can't imagine having two of those "puppies" in a sedan -- even a Maybach 62 limo!

Bob

rsholland

Recently it was posted that the Baja turbo, as of April, will come standard with a hard, lockable bed cover. I wonder if these models will be considered '05 models? There is no mention of this in the '04 Baja brochure. Sometimes carmakers will announce that some items will arrive later in the model year in their brochures; not so in the '04 Baja brochure.

The '04 Baja didn't hit dealer's lots until last month, because of the huge stockpiles of '03 models. I wonder if the '04 model will have an ultra-short model year, and that SOA just starts calling these April models '05s, since there are some upgrades (or at least one upgrade)?

Along this same line of thought, I've noticed that '04 Bajas, of any sort, are pretty rare. So maybe, SOA produced only a handful of '04 models, knowing that '05 models will shortly arrive?

Bob

[Deleted User]

The removable and lockable hard cover would be a huge benefit to the Baja. That would add security, decrease wind resistance, and ease cleaning (no snow and dirt collecting in the bed).

Bob: We have a female light-colored golden named Annie, who's just starting to gray around the face. Our other one is a dark red female named Kita. We adopted each from different families when they were about 6 months old. They're around 5 years old now and still full of energy. Annie has severe hip dysplasia, though, so we keep her on meds and moderate her activity. They're quite a pair in the back seat of any car, typically resting their heads on each other to maximize space and cuteness :-)

rsholland

Our Annie is a medium colored golden. We've noticed recently that sometimes she limps a little, when she gets up, but it quickly goes away. We're a little concerned about hip dysplasia too. Keeping our fingers crossed... She's a great dog though, still as playful as ever.

And to bring this discussion somewhat back to Subarus, I was playing with a toy self-propelled Subie (compliments of Patti from the Philly show) the other day, and Annie grabbed the toy car and took off! She's got good tastes when it comes to cars!

Bob

ateixeira

Maybe it was size, not mass, that I was thinking of. The H6 didn't fit in the Forester's engine bay, IIRC.

But Bob, in the Mayback, Annie could watch satellite TV and have chilled water and heated treats!

Since they're on the same assembly line, my curiosity revolves around whether they can switch platforms on the same line. They might stock pile some Bajas now and not produce any for 2005.

-juice

kens

Nabisco discussion used to be a lot more constructive and mature prior to the WRX. It's still a pretty good source of info, though. But, the people here have always been a lot more pleasant.

Standard AWD is still the main differentiator between the mainstream. Without it, Subaru would be head-to-head against the Accords and Camrys. However, AWD is slowly making it's way down to the mainstream so it'll be interesting to see what Subaru comes up with. They're already trying to keep the distance by marketing a "symmetric AWD".

Going slightly OT again, but I'm going to be going to the Volvo Drive event this weekend featuring the new S40. I've heard that they're going to have a 2.5T mated to a 6MT there. Mmmmm.

Ken

buddhabman

When is the debut for the 7 seater. Does anyone have any sketches, pictures, etc? We will be in the market for a larger car/truck by early next year. The current favorites are:

Cadillac SRX
Tahoe Z71
New Dodge Durango
Nissan Quest
Mazda MPV

I love the Legacy wagons, but with kids and a dog and all the stuff that goes with it, you run out of space quickly is everone is rolling. The roof top carriers are an idea though, but I can't imagine getting a double stroller + luggage to fit in that.

ateixeira

Ken: link? How'd you get invited? I love those types of events.

A couple of sketches have circulated, one yellow one that was heavily based on the B11S concept, and a red one that came from a publication in Japan IIRC. I doubt either is an accurate forecast, though.

We might see a clay model at the NY show, I certainly hope so. I plan on going up just to see it.

-juice

c_hunter

Add a bed cover to the Baja, and it is going to overlap with the Outback wagon even more, except the covered storage area is smaller. Without the cover, the bed is too small to be really useful as a pickup truck. I just don't get the point of the Baja. It seems to be a compromise from all angles.

Juice, I believe SIA can build the old-style Baja and the new Legacy. That plant has had the capability to build multiple platforms from the very beginning (remember the former Isuzu production).

Craig

simon_tx

I know Subaru is targeting the performance side of the market, but why are all their cars so fuel inefficient. Even their non turbocharged 4s are some of the worst around - although they probably have a little more power.

Does the AWD really impact the fuel economy that much?

I know there is added weight, but I've never experienced a significant fuel efficiency drop when I load up my Maxima - I know the engine is larger than it needs to be so that extra weight does not seem to effect the fuel efficiency much, but I think most Subaru's have more power than they really need - I'm trying to figure out why they have no car that gets over 30 mpg HWY - and average is even worse.

Maybe the hybrid will help - do you think they will look at that for their wagons?

ateixeira

True Craig, but I can't imagine Baja getting its own dedicated assembly line. I don't think Isuzus were built on the same lines, though they did share a paint booth I think.

Fuel economy is in line or better than other AWD wagons of similar size. Forester actually gets best-in-class mileage for AWD compact SUVs.

The 2.5l is geared pretty short, though, and it's a big displacement 4 cylinder.

-juice

fibber2

Outback and an Odyssey. Only way to fly. Big and bigger! Seriously, I just cannot see buying a sedan again, at least not as a main vehicle. Maybe someday something small and sporty for fun as an extra car, but not as my main driver.

Steve

zman

THEN: two growing boys, two rambunctious (and good sized) dogs, mom and dad. Family 600 miles away to visit twice a year. 20 years with two different station wagons (first a Subaru then a Volvo). No problems.

NOW: Empty nest; mom and dad, one (significantly less active) dog. Family still 600 miles away. Ten year-old wagon. No problems.

NEXT: Another dog and another station wagon! Grandchildren? O my!

Zman

robr2

I'm doing the S40 event in Boston the first weekend of April. Try volvodriveevents.com and click on drive experience.

kens

http://www.volvodriveevents.com/

You need the latest Flash player to see the webpage. I didn't at first and couldn't figure out why I kept getting a blank page.

Ken

ladywclass

My one daughter is coming back from Hawaii next month (married with 2 boys) and one daughter in Texas (married with 2 boys and a baby girl) and one daughter in college ... B/f's boys are 13 and 15 ... I'm trying to get the whole group here for a week or more this summer ... we haven't all been together in almost 3 years ... and if they come they fly ... so how do I haul them all in one vehicle???? LOL even if the husbands DON'T come!

hondafriek

Many years we had two cars and one of them was always a hatchback or wagon, now that we are down to one car it will always be a wagon.

  Cheers Pat.

rsholland

One of those 15-passenger full-size vans. You can probably rent one for a week.

Bob

ladywclass

yeah, bob ... that's what I figured, too ... I used to drive one of those in a bank car-pool into downtown Houston ...

wheelz4

to put in this but I got this off a "spy shots"
forum (not nabisco):
"This is a request for those in the following areas. The Subaru 7 Passenger SUV test mules are supposedly testing in Philadelphia, Lafeyette Ind, and Alaska. I'd love to see a shot get posted here soon"
There were some entries about people keeping an eye out but no pics posted as yet. One poster said it had been shown to Lafayette plant employees.

fibber2

Funny thing about PC software and the web. I had no trouble viewing the Volvo site, but still cannot get your link to the multicar test to run, despite updating my views.

Steve

ateixeira

That's the way to go, Steve. Get a 3rd car/toy and let that one be impractical.

Thanks guys, I'm registered for the event on 4/24 at 10:30am. Bob - you want to join? I registered myself plus the wife. We could meet up and try out a V50.

And yes, this is on topic, because generally speaking the suggestions we make for future Subies comes from things that exist somewhere else, very rarely is a feature entirely new.

-juice

buddhabman

AWD - Drivetrain + added weight = worse gas mileage. The Subarus are still best of breed (MPG) for small to midsize cars with AWD. Audis are even worse because of weight. Well maybe the Suzuki does better, but it is lighter. Check the goverments fuel mileage website.

kens

Steve: Do you have the latest Windows Media Player? It's clearly a codec issue.

juice: I believe the event only features the S40. The V50 is not due out until this summer. However, I have read that the S40 will be there not only with it's 2.4 NA engine (AT and MT) but the 2.5T with AT and 6MT. Sweet!

Ken

rsholland

in the latest issue of Motor Trend: The new Subie 7-passenger MDX-like (MT's words) crossover *could* be the basis for the 2nd-generation Saab 9-7x.

Also this Subie version to arrive in the summer of '05, which sounds about right if it debuts at the '05 Detroit show, as expected.

Bob

cptplt

Thats interesting , latest C & D, say the Sube will be a new platform which will NOT be a GM sourced one like the 9-7x!
 I think this 7 seater will be perfect for my oldest when she hits 16 in 2 years! Big enough to provide some safety and not sporty enough so she can try hurt herself. Plus it will undoubtedly fit her cello. Incidentally her cello no longer fits my WRX without putting a seat down. Good thing I got the WRX when she still had a 1/4 size or the better half would never have let me buy the WRX! I wonder if a full size will fit in a 05 2.5GT Legacy??? hehehe

ateixeira

There is a "green cars" list and several Subies made it, Baja was the #1 compact pickup. Outback was in the top 3 for the PZEV model, Forester was also in the top 3 IIRC.

Ken: just don't be surprised if the 6MT is a demo ride only, where a pro takes you for a ride. That's how it's usually structured.

Still, it'll be fun to try an S40(R?).

The current 9-7x makes no sense at all, Saab dealers have no idea how to work on trucks. So that makes a lot more sense.

I really wonder though, will the 9-3 and 9-5 move to Subaru platforms later, then?

Lucien had to ditch his sedan due to the size of a cello (and cases o' wine).

-juice

kens

juice,

Not from what I've read:

creakid1 "New S40/V50" Feb 22, 2004 6:52am

The 6MT is available for the public to try. The S40R is still not available.

Ken

rsholland

http://www.lafayettejc.com/news20040227/200402271local_news107785- 8959.shtml

And from AutoWeek:

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=04802127

Note : sidebar mentioned here is not available on online version of this article.

Bob

rsholland

The Audi allroad, PT Cruiser and Scion xB are all designed to achieve light truck designation from the federal government.

There are different ways to make a car meet the federal definition of a light truck, including making the rear seats removable to give a wagon a flat loading floor or raising a vehicle's ground clearance to at least 20 centimeters, or a little less than 8 inches.

Subaru will raise the Outback's height from a minimum of 7.3 inches to as much as 8.7 inches, and will make other adjustments, such as altering the position of the rear bumper, to meet light truck specifications.

I was wondering about the Audi allroad (and Volvo XC70 too), as to whether they are classiffied the same as the new Outback.

Bob

ateixeira

I didn't know the Scion xB is a light truck, that's wild. It's FWD only, and basically an Echo wagon with a tiny 1.5l engine!

-juice

nygreg

I will probably need your advice in the future as my 3 daughters are still fairly young.

Greg

rsholland

http://www.lafayettejc.com/news20040228/200402280local_business10- 77945505.shtml