Subaru Crew - Future Models II

toboggan

Ouch! The OBW MSRP of $32,495 is about $5,000 more than I paid for my '98 OBW Ltd 5 spd. This "poor ol'" retiree may not be able to afford a new OB-XT. Ah,well, when the price of gasoline gets up $2.50 a gallon, the big honkers will be cheap to buy.

MNSteve - Sunny and 47 degrees today

c_hunter

Those were high-end prices for the current lineup, so that clearly refers to the VDC. I'm sure the base 05 Outback will continue to be reasonably priced. If you look at the equipment and improvements, they would not justify higher pricing for parallel models from 04 to 05. I would expect the 2.5i model to be priced inline with the current base models, for instance. Subaru is pushing the design and image upmarket, but they'd be stupid to push the prices upmarket.

Craig

toboggan

My only other "complaint" was I sure was hoping for an H6 with the MT with the OB. I need the MT to tow behind the motor home. Really don't need 250HP, 212/208HP is enough for my purposes. Ah, will keep waiting and see what the year brings.

MNSteve

c_hunter

H6 with a MT would be awesome, and I bet the gas mileage would be great. I bet Subaru could do it, since they now have a MT that can handle the turbo H4 motor.

I will definitely pass on the turbo if the gas mileage is not good, but would definitely get another H6 again. The one in my 02 LL Bean has been great.

By the way, the 05 H6 has 250HP. That's 38HP more than I'm used to!

Craig

sweet_subie

how come the torque on the new H6 stays the same as the old one, when HP went up by 38 ?

So, what does it mean ?

pon1

Excuse the ramble, but I have cold turkey. Currently Subeless, it's a rather odd feeling.

On Saturday, our fun but troublesome Forester 2000 L went back to the dealer for the last time. We now have a "bill of sale" for an as yet unborn 2005 Forester XT. The deal is based on the 2004 model and price, but dealer will hold this price into the 2005 MY, and as we dont absolutely need a second car now, it can wait for a few months. I think I can use this deal against anything in the Subie range.

As we have a few months to figure out what next, thoughts have turned once again to the Outback XT and how it will stack up aginst the Forester XT. Just some idle questions and comments based, as we wait for final specs and prices (soon, soon...please Subaru!!)

- does the cloth model base XT really exist and will Canada get it? Some conflict on the "official" sube pages both in Canada and US (need-desire, subaru.ca, press releases)

- does the OBXT have WRX style seats. I read "sports seats with integrated headrests" somewhere (anyone who has actually seen the XT will be able to answer this)?

- how deep is the tint (saves me money against the FXT, which is not tinted as far as I know, or at least is very lightly tinted)

- what is "pre-wired for towing", and what is it worth (if I was to do likewise with the Forester)?

- will it be priced so as not to steal sales from the FXT? My guess is the base XT will be within cnd$1000 of the base FXT above or below (remember our FXT gets the moonroof, the base OBXT likely does not). A very close price would be good for me, though maybe bad for the FXT (not that it matters).

- how close to the N/A 4 cyl base model does the base 5MT XT have to be to provide logical jumps in the price range. I'd say no more than cnd$4000. Again sticking out my neck, here the OB base 4cyl N/A will be no more than 32995, i.e. $1000 over the current model.

- will the auto XT limited be priced to keep some daylight between it and the 3.0R.

- in general, how much are people willing to pay for an Outback, however good the new model turns out to be. Where does the range begin and end. Sorry for Canadian prices again, but if all but the N/A 4 cyl are above $40K (drive away price), then it will be nice try no cigar.

- I may be very wrong here, but I figure the OBXT will drive exactly like the FXT, given the same powertrain/tranny/ratios?? I'd guess the "210" hp Forester and the "250" hp Outback are just Subaru marketing speak for the same "235-ish" hp motor in the current FXT. There could be minor differences in programming, but I cant see what sense it makes to produce indiv model variants for the already wonderful 2.5T. Actually reminds me of the 1.8T VW motor that comes with slightly diff hp figures depending on the model.

That's enogh speculation for now.

JP

hondafriek

If you look at Australia and the UK for comparison, the price increses for the new model Legacy and Outback were quite small overall. I would expect a similar small increase in North American prices.

  Cheers Pat.

kens

The FXT here in the US needs to be bundled with the Premium Package to get leather and sunroof. Otherwise, it comes with cloth.

I don't think the output of the FXT and OBXT will be the same. Even though the engine block is the same, the intercooler is different. I'm not sure about the turbo, but that can be different too. Also, the OBXT/Legacy GT uses a dual exahust. I'm sure the differences add up to a different output. Think about the case with the STi.

The seats on the OBXT will probably not be the WRX-style seats. The auto show models didn't have it, plus Subaru mentions an active head restraint system with the new model.

As for pricing, I have no clue where Subaru intends to place the OBXT yet.

Ken

ateixeira

I've sat in the Legacy GT seats are they are unique, like nothing in the current Subaru lineup. Very, very nice.

Output is 250hp and 250 lb-ft, we already know that. Both stated figures are higher than the XT, and we know the intercooler is different, the intake plenum looks different, plus there's the dual exhaust. I doubt output is the same.

With more equipment (side curtains and projector beam lights) plus a bigger platform it should cost at least a grand more than the F-XT.

The tint didn't look dark in Chicago, but we don't know if that's how it'll look when it hits dealers. The Baja is darker, for instance.

Pre-wired for towing means the harness just plugs right in, no splicing wires. This means a handy person could install it without professional help.

A lot of the other stuff is not even determined yet. My guess is the turbos will cost at least $1-2 grand less than the H6 equivalent, and at least $1-2 grand more then the base H4 equivalent.

-juice

fibber2

Can anybody see the full text of this snippet:

"Fuji pushes Subaru to go upscale
New wagon, higher prices are part of strategy
Subaru, once advertised as "inexpensive and built to stay that way," has considered drastic changes, including fattening its vehicles' prices substantially and even jettisoning its brand name, in an effort to move upscale. [IMAGE]
View story"

It might answer some of our questions....

Steve

ateixeira

They'll do less volume, for sure, if they do that.

-juice

hondafriek

Anywhere else that the new model is already being sold there was a minimal increase I don't expect it will be any different here.

  Cheers Pat.

fibber2

I wouldn't want my first Subaru to be my last!!

Steve

johnclineii

Full quoting from any Automotive News article would get the quoter in LOTS of trouble. Here's the part you are most interested in:

***Subaru won't reveal prices of its new wagon until closer to its 2005 introduction, but Doll says it will be between $30,000 and $37,000.

Subaru prices have been climbing steadily for years. Its six-cylinder L.L. Bean Outback wagon is priced in the low $30,000s. Optional turbo engines added last year pushed Subaru's top-of-the-line Forester wagon near $30,000. But its incentives also have been rising, albeit less aggressively than the competition's.****

bblacha

... can't Subaru stay affordable and have a luxury Lexus-like division going so far upscale?
In fact, Saab could function as that division!

30-37K, that's tough. On the other hand, I can't believe they'll price it so high and still expect to grow volume (as that LafayetteJC article said they did.)

hondafriek

Will be all sorts of speculation until prices are actually released, but I cannot see Subaru shooting themselves in the foot by boosting prices astronomically.

 They have not done this in other markets why would they do it here, Legacys and Outbacks in the high twentys and low thirties just are not going to fly, and I would think that that the marketers will know that.

 As well Subaru used to have this market niche pretty well all to itself, it is now getting crowded with an alternative selection of AWD vehicles.

  Cheers Pat.

ateixeira

I'm gonna be bold and say that would just be incredibly DUMB.

Why? Because they will not sell for those prices. You are well, well beyond Acura TL/G35 and entry level BMW and Audi prices. These cars are the same size as the TSX, not the TL, they should not and cannot be priced in the TL/G35 range.

So, what will happen? Same as what happened to the Chrysler Pacifica. $35k retail, $27k selling price. Massive rebates almost right away. Extremely poor resale, bad image, failed marketing, eroding profits. Anyone who pays close to MSRP for an early model will faint when they see resale values in a couple of years and they'll leave the Subaru brand in droves.

I'll also predict that sales will drop 5-10% rather than increasing, if those prices hold up.

Now, I think they're plain wrong, or maybe they're only looking at the H6 models. No way, no how, could an Outback 2.5i fetch $30 grand.

On the other hand, that would knock me right off the fence and I'd run, not walk, to my nearest dealer to buy a Forester XT before they move the next generation of that vehicle "upscale".

Sheesh.

-juice

c_hunter

Am I the only one who noticed that the article was talking about the 7 seater?? Not Outbacks, guys!! The "2005 introduction" is an important clue there. That's clearly the 7 seater.

Craig

subearu

smile as I consider the F-XT a bargain.

-Brian

subewannabe

You can get a very-nicely equipped Ford Explorer for less than 30K...$8000 incentives now. I'm guessing Subaru will not try to sell the new generation Legacy/OB for more than $1500 above current model range MSRP.The Indiana plant will be closing by September if they try.

Mark

hondafriek

What happened with the 6 cylinder at the start, people balked at a MID thirties price for an Outback they sat on lots.MRSP at the minute for the VDC is $33.334USD> Fitzgerald is selling them for $28,000USD.

  Cheers Pat.

njswamplands

smile as i KNOW my fxt was a bargain.

ateixeira

I hope that is the 7 seater. If they start at $30k instead of the $33k hinted previously, I may actually be able to afford one.

I basically want a 7 seater "Sport", equipped like the Baja, moonroof but cloth. H6 with SportShift or manual, either way. Keep it at $30k or so, street prices will make that affordable to us.

-juice

pon1

No way will they price the N/A 2.5i base model more than US$1000 over the current OB base. If they jack up the price any more than that, they would drive away the traditional outback buyers, without providing enough cost saving or content incentive to get the audi/volvo/passat/v6 suv set to switch brands. The base 4 @ 170hp is just not enough anymore for the typical wagon or the SUV buyer. It's neither quick or refined, plus it runs out of steam at altitude.

The H6 Bean/VDC will continue to be a low volume niche player. Currently too expensive for a Subaru. Only those who really want it will drop that kind of cash. Plus it will be outgunned by the Turbo. I wonder if they considered dropping it altogether?

The volume seller and highest profile model will be the OB XT - provided they get the pricing right. Which means MSRP here just has to start in the 36-38K range for the XT base (or significantly under 30K in the US??) with the usual subaru increments for auto and PP/leather.

One more thought - the 2.5i with VVT @ 190hp or an H6 option with either MT or auto in a value priced base model OB would have both been very attractive to me. As I contemplate my third 2.5l subie, I just cant get my head around another go around with the same old N/A 2.5. Part of the fun of getting a new car is to get something that feels/drives "different". If subaru had offered this in an affordable N/A engine I could have passed on the turbo (prem gas, poor mpg, etc)

c_hunter

The 2.5i models have a slightly different engine than we're used to. The reason Subaru went with dual exhausts was to tune and tame the boxer rumble (that comes from asymmetric exhaust plumbing). We'll have to wait for a test drive to know for sure, but I am guessing that the new Outbacks will be quieter and more refined than the previous models with the same engine.

Craig

pon1

Still think they could have worked a bit harder to differentiate the base model's powertrain from the outgoing model.

Head gasket and clutch issues with this engine's predecessor also put me off.

But will give it a go when there's one to test. The lower weight will help.

James

ateixeira

They could have used AVCS on the base 2.5l, but let's see if 180 lbs weight loss is enough. Might be OK with the 5 speed. Still, the 2.5i Limited models are in a price range where 190hp or so would be desireable.

-juice

pon1

The silence on pricing suggests to me that Subaru are monitoring reaction to the model releases to try and decide how "upscale" we may be prepared to go....

Based on what we know, how much more over the current Forester XT price would anyone be willing to give Subaru today to own the new Outback XT? I'm cross shopping but going no more than about US$1000 over to even consider the OB.

JP

toboggan

hang in the weeds for awhile to see what the pricing ends up to be.

MNSteve

sweet_subie

i'll take OBXT over XT upto 2k diff

rsholland

http://www.salon-auto.ch/en/en_images/index.php?cat=0&page=6

spinaker

Thanks for the pics Bob. I think the clear front indicators look really good with the silver paintwork. Anybody notice the US models at Detroit/Chicago? Do we get clear or yellow front indicators?

Thanks
- spinaker

goneskiian

subearu

Here's the XT from the front:


The Outback 3.0R VDC


-Brian

sweet_subie

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_- id=1165

sweet_subie

http://www.fleetnewsnet.co.uk/roadtests/fullroadtest/?cman_code=9- 909&articleid=33636

ateixeira

Make that blue juuust a tad lighter and that's my car. For up to $1500 or so more than the XT, no more than that. Cloth under $25k street price, under $27k for the Limited, and it would be a very tough call.

That Mitsu Grandis looks like the son of a Quest and a Matrix. )

-juice

bat1161

Sounds like Subaru is almost there on teh hybrid technology. Like the article sadi, that is what people are looking for. Maybe by '05? That would certainly help convince the mrs. to "upgrade" to a new Subie.

Mark

hondafriek

Know I have to laugh at all the talk about hybrids, fuel cells and all the rest of it.

If all the automakers had of gotten their fingers out years ago when the Arabs started putting the sqeeze on us with oil, hybrids and fuel cells would have been old hat now and gas would be about 50 cents a gallon. Instead like always, instead of leading the pack they are desperately playing catch up.

  Cheers Pat.

locke2c

I dunno, those techologies are still very expensive today with questionable real return. (Or am I the only one who recalls that a 1986 Honda CRX HF could get >50 MPG? 1.3L and 1800lb was a winning combo.)

I can't really see that anything but even further supply constraint would push us towards them faster than we are going now. It sure isn't performance that is leading us there today!

And gas prices are heavily based on taxes, even in the US and Canada. everywhere else, even moreso.

~c

ladywclass

>>Make that blue juuust a tad lighter and that's my car.<<

Claims total custody of the B9 ....

hondafriek

I do realise that taxes are also a killer in gas prices, but my point is and it is only my personal view, but I contend that if the manufacturers had started on alternative technologies way back when the Arabs started to manipulate oil prices with the laws of supply and demand, those technologies would now be mainstream and be affordable.

Lets face it, it is only in the last couple of years that a serious concerted effort has been made to really get alternative methods of propulsion.

 50 cents a gallon was more a metaphor than reality, but the point is taxes aside, when the middle east no longer has us by the short and curlies will oil be more realistically priced.

  Cheers Pat.

locke2c

not really, unfortunately. the chinese are now consuming oil at radically increasing rates as they industrialize, and the russians are the ones chiefly interested in filling that need.

..bah, that's a Cafe topic.

I'm glad to see Subaru working on hybrids, they'll be important someday. could we please get variable valve timing on ALL gasoline engines right now though? thank you.

~c

luck11

Geez....really disappointed in the wheel selection on the 3.0 pictured at Geneva. Hope they don't make it here!

BTW, can't recall when the vehicle is expected in the US, but an article from my local dealership's website suggests "the 2005 Subaru Outback is expected to go on sale in Canada in early June, 2004."

http://www.westboro.subarudealer.ca/interface/Subaru02/NewsDetail- 02.asp?WebPageID=4749&WebSiteID=215&ArticleID=851

I find it strange as we usually get vehicles at least a few months after they are avail in the USA. Hmmmm.....

Can't wait though!! My 00 Outback is looking for a new home!

Hope to see something from Subaru on a 7-seater soon, because my wife is beginning to push me towards serious consideration of the new Ford Freestyle....a new 7-seater due to be available in the Fall, 04. Ford is hardly my top choice, but the 7-seater option, without going to full blown SUV or...dare I say.....a MINI-VAN... is attractive to her because of its practicality. My in-laws don't drive anymore, which means we have to juggle our driving to get the entire family somewhere.

ateixeira

OOPS! I claim temporary insanity, Brenda. I didn't think the B9SC was anything more than a dream! ;-)

My roommate in college had a CRX HF, those were cool but not very popular. The Si was a lot quicker and cost only slightly more.

I'm with Colin, think hybrid for MY2007. How about AVCS now, for 2005? Then double AVCS for 2006 with Direct Injection to boot.

Even hybrids will still have gas engines, they may as well have these efficiencies ready by then.

-juice

PS C&D's Chevy Aveo was quicker than the Prius and the new Jetta TDI 0-60

bat1161

The OB is expected in June here as well. I guess Subaru wants it ready to go all over.

As for hybrids, I agree with Pat in the sense that manufacturers should have been working on this years ago. However, since they did not publicly acknowledge this sevelopment until now, I think Subaru has no choice but to get in the game reasonalby soon. With Lexus, Toyota, and Honda already out there on mainstream vehicles, Subaru has to get involved to stay in the game. They could even use it to offset some of the bad press thye received from the environmental groups regarding the OB.

Mark

hondafriek

Was at the local dealer today and spoke to the sales manager, they have been told a mid to end of June introduction.

As for pricing they have been told that the base price will stay approx. the same, at worst there will be a minimal increase, the turbo will be about the same premium as the XT is over the regular Forester.

 Thats a difference of $1900CDN on the base XT to $3400CDN on the premium XT, you can verify this pricing at www.subaru.ca.

He said that Subaru is accutely aware of the danger of pricing themselves out of the market.

  Cheers Pat.

ateixeira

The XT is a bargain so that's good news. Of course we've heard so many different opinions who knows.

-juice

rsholland

http://www.subaru-global.com/topics/ms/2004gen/index.html

Love the interior!

Bob

hypov

3.0l and 6 speed manual...

Do I hear chantings "Me Wants!", "Me Wants!"? ;-)

-Dave