Subaru Crew - Future Models II

nygreg

yeah, that's the first thing my eye fell on. Yum.

Greg

sebberry

And it's available in a wagon, too... Good Subaru, good.

Now, fit it with VTD, McIntosh sound and a NAVI system and I'll take two, twice the fun!

*Please fetch me my drool bucket!*

Edit: Uh oh... The Altima is now packing a 250 HP 3.5 V6 with 246lbft of torque! (And a NAV)

Subaru: One acronym: H6TTn. (Kinda has a nice ring to it, don't ya think?)

ateixeira

I'm drooling, but I know I couldn't afford it. Looks like it could really give the S4 a run for its money, though.

-juice

rsholland

in NZ the 3rd quarter of this year!

http://www.subaru.co.nz/news/index.html?id=608

Wanna bet we see it here next spring/summer as an '06 model?

Bob

cusafr

Oh my gosh Bob! I was all set on the 2005 model, now I am tempted to wait. I never owned a turbo and although I understand they are better than ever, the old-fashion me, would sure rather have the 6 cyl. with the standard shift. Just don't know if I can wait that long....

CUSAFR

mutsuraboshi

If the B-spec goes state side, more people will be balancing on the famous fence.

subewannabe

I am reminded of Paul Hansen's side-by-side test track drive of the JDM Spec B and the Legacy GT. Although both had the JDM 2.0L turbo, the difference that Paul commented on was the VERY stiff suspension set up on the Spec B. He felt it was great for the track but probably too harsh for most buyers, whereas the "normal" Legacy GT would be plenty nimble for anything but the race course.

Mark

ateixeira

Just when I was leaning towards an Outback XT, The Fence makes a come back.

-juice

kens

Mark: Agreed. I think the GT will be better suited for most buyers.

juice: Curious, why the OBXT and not the GT?

Ken

bigelm

If it comes to this side of the pond, consider that because Legacy's are more of a daily driving vehicle as SOJ/SOA puts it for us NAmericans and see less of the track; your chances will be that it won't be a full blown specd out "B".

The only thing I see good coming out of this is the 6MT on a NA engine. But since I like my spooling responses, I'll just wait 2-3 months and enjoy my GT :-D

ateixeira

Maybe it's the timing. My nanny cracked two ribs and it was painful for her to sit down into the Legacy. She could get in to the Forester easily without pain.

Even though the Forester is 4 years older, I dunno, I just prefer it. Can't really explain all the reasons, it's just more user-friendly. Also more injury-friendly, and let me throw in kid-friendly while I'm at it.

More likely it's the usage I expect to get from it.

While personally I'd like the GT's handling, more realistically this will be our family/trip car. I'd rarely use it when I was alone. It would have kids, cargo, or both. So the ride would be more important than the handling.

Easier to get things in and out plus more comfortable once you're there. Beefier, more substantial look. More clearance just in case.

I'd really have to drive it. I liked the '98 Forester better than the '98 Outback in terms of handling, so who knows?

-juice

njswamplands

so juice you cracked her ribs when she wrote something positive about BMW X3 in that other chat?

ateixeira

I think you're mistaking me for a couple of the other Subie fans in there. I've been pretty tame compared to the good ol' days.

-juice

johnclineii

Pretty good comments. What do you figure the price difference will be between the Legacy GT and the Outback XT?

ateixeira

My guess is the OB will cost slightly more and have a little more content to go with it.

-juice

johnclineii

Darn you! If it is only slightly more, NOW I am up on that thar fence.

My ederly mother would have much less difficulty getting in and out of the Outback.

I wonder how much difference there will really be in the handling? See, I sometimes have to drive on back, dirt roads and I got to worry just a bit about the Legacy's clearance. Plus, I got to think the resale would be better on the Outback. EVERYONE knows what an Outback is, few even know who makes the Legacy.

kens

juice,

So you're willing to give up the alumnium control arms, dual chrome tip exahusts, vented rear disc brakes for some ground clearance? ;-)

I doubt the Legacy GT will be tuned to the point where it would be uncomfortable. That's what the Spec B is for.

Get back on that fence! :-)

Ken

ateixeira

People see our Legacy and say "nice Outback". You're right, the Legacy is invisible.

OK, I read that article, and get mixed feelings.

<begin rant>

The author is probably mixing up models, when he says "new wagon" he means the 7 seat crossover. In that case $30k starting price would be good news. VIP pricing might put that at around $27k and change, if so I'm back on The Fence.

But then Tom Doll talks about innovation and...I dunno, is Subaru really a leader here? Enough to go near-luxury?

I'm not saying they are way behind, but VW and Toyota are ahead right now, with stability control and air bag availability, not to mention premium options.

VW and Toyota are not upscale makes! Catch up to them before you talk!

I mean, how can he even say that when DVD Nav and HIDs are not even on the options list for their upcoming Legacy? That's fine with me that they aren't, mind you, but how can you tote innovation at the same time?

This is just PR speak. I don't buy the whole "upscale" thing.

Sure, they're using nicer materials, power is very competitive, but what's wrong with playing the value card? We don't need another luxury nameplate.

</end rant>.

-juice

ateixeira

Ken: one drive will make it clear.

It's funny, I'm very Yes/No, Pass/Fail. It'll take me 5 minutes behind the wheel to decide.

-juice

rsholland

HIDs and NAV are part of the 7-passenger package.

Bob

ateixeira

For $37k, though.

If that $30-37 range is correct, here's how I see it:

3.0R - $30k, heated cloth, H6, 250hp
3.0R Limited - $34k, leather, moonroof
3.0Rn VDC - $37k, add DVD Navigation and HIDs plus stability control

I'm going to guess that they'll all get 5 speed automatics with SportShift and VTD AWD. I hope so.

To me that would be a pretty complete base model, the *only* thing I'd give up that I want is the moonroof. I think I would, if that's the price.

-juice

kens

juice,

Yes, test driving will be key. While I'm sure dealers will have OBXTs, I wonder how many will have Legacy GTs at the start? A GT wagon was a rare find on dealers lots with the outgoing model.

I'm the opposite in deciding -- seldom do I find anything that's Yes/No.

When I spoke to the local dealer last week, they were still being told "May" for the new models to roll in.

Ken

subewannabe

I need test drives , too. I was all set in my mind on the Legacy GT LTD wagon, just obsessing over the gearing ratios on the 5MT vs the 5EAT. Then they surprised me, in a big way, with the OBXT. I started leaning toward more winter capability. Now Im thinking I will just put snow tires all around my old Explorer for the hauling and serious bump and run days, and get the better highway handling and milage with the Legacy...reminiscent of a WRX wagon, "just a scoash more room in the seat and thighs", to quote Walt Garrison. The Forester XT is a great car,too. Just not enough room in back for my family.

Could any Texans verify the proper spelling of "scoash"?

Kens, I was in your part of the country for four days two weeks ago...what a beautiful place in early spring...and lots of Subarus! Maybe I need to come back to test drive a Legacy Gt on Pac Hwy 1 north of Muir Beach!

mark

mark

sweet_subie

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/08/eveningnews/main604651.- shtml

ateixeira

Ken: they will be rare. And the first few batches will be swallowed up quick by Subie enthusiasts. Good luck finding one the first 3 months!

Focus is like 100 years old, they worked out the kinks by now. Let's see how the brand new models fare.

I found it interesting that Subaru actually beat Honda at 5 years of age in the new CR mag. Think about it - you want a car that is reliable in the long-term, after the warranty expires. Honda gives you 3 years, after that good luck.

Subaru gives you 5 on the powertrain, and after that it's actually more reliable.

This despite the Baja dragging the brand down. I bet that model will improve in its 2nd year, too.

-juice

subewannabe

I have to admit that I am a little anxious that the reliablity reports for the Forester and Impreza...models assembled in Japan-have been so great, consistent with the raves about improved fit and finish, yet the vehicles made in the Indiana plant haven't been as reliable. Makes me wonder if Toyota, Honda and Nissan are experiencing the same discrepancy between their vehicles made stateside and those assembled in Japan?

In my fence sitting, I also did some quick calculations on gas milage between the 05 Legacy GT and Outback XT. Since the transmission gear ratios are identical,the greater final reductions in the Outback should yield about 7.5% less mpg with the 5MT and 8.8% less in the 5EAT. In theory, the greater factory tire diameter in the OB almost exactly compensates, however. I say in theory because its hard to know which tire will provide less rolling resistance.
  Slightly greater weight( cladding and suspension components) and drag in the OB should somewhat reduce gas milage. Those are not insignificant differences at today's prices .

Mark

ateixeira

Tires offset the gear ratios completely, and I doubt weight will make any difference. I'd guess the EPA figures will be identical for the GT and the OB-XT.

-juice

kenoka

I am not a Texan, but being of Japanese extraction, I can tell you the proper spelling of "scoash" is skosh, from the Japanese sukoshi, meaning a little bit, or a small amount. I don't understand the reference to Texans though.

kens

Mark: Yes, Northern Cali is quite nice in the springtime. Too bad you aren't here this week -- we're hitting record temps in the 80s! And yes, lots of Subarus in this part of the country. I think many people don't realize that outside of the NE, northern CA is a huge Subaru market. The largest volume dealers are typically out here.

As for the gas milage, juice is right -- the OB and GT wear different tires. The OB gets higher profile tires so the effective gearing is almost identical. Someone posted a comparison plot a while back -- I think it was Craig.

Ken: I was thinking "sukoshi" also!

Ken

paisan

Anyone have power output on that? If it's around 300hp that would be nice.

-mike

cptplt

why would it be different from an OB or Legacy??? mechanicals and interior are essentially the same

subewannabe

walt garrison was a dallas cowboys running back in the early 70's who was almost as wide as he was tall with tremendous leg strength. after his football career he was very marketable as a good ole texas cowboy. He was the pitch man for the very first style of jeans with what is now known as 'relaxed cut'. His pitch line was'just a sukoshi more room in the seat and thighs"? Who knew!

Mark

kens

Well who would have known:

http://yahooligans.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/66/s045- 6600.html

It does come from the Japanese "sukoshi" meaning "a little".

Ken

gotenks243

CR actually picked the Baja as one of the MOST reliable trucks. Somehow in a press release or something the Baja got shoved into the Least Reliable column, and even stranger than that occurence, I never saw any corrections issued for the mistake. Baja reliability is top-notch just like my Indiana-built Subaru, my dad's Indiana-built Subaru, and a whole lot more Indiana and Japan built Subarus.

I don't think there's much of a reliability discrepancy between Indiana and Gunma built cars. Both plants seem to produce dependable machines. The same holds true for other Japanese companies with plants in America, as far as I know.

I wonder if by the time I replace my Outback with a new-gen Legacy they'll have introduced a n/a 2.5 DOHC w/AVCS. 87 octane, nice performance all the way to a higher redline, good fuel economy... maybe for '06? I can't wait to drive the 168hp 2.5i anyway. I suppose I'm the only one considering not scrounging up for a turbo?

Mike

njswamplands

cheeks and gums and get real tobacco satifisfaction

Karen_S

Since Subaru isn't the only future model discussed here, I thought you all might enjoy this new article on Edmunds.

The Smart Invasion: A New smart Line of Cars Is Coming to the U.S.

ateixeira

Show me the Smart Roadster, it's the only one I'd consider.

Roadsters are totally impractical, and it might be the only car in the lineup where the diminuitive size is an advantage. Price it $3 grand below a Miata.

Figures, we'll get an SUV.

-juice

bkaiser1

The H6 in the spec b is apparently unmodified -- so output will be the same as in the Outback. Still, the addition of a 6mt will likely change the character of the engine entirely.

B

toboggan

Make it with AWD (like the Subaru) and 8" of ground clearance for the snow parts of the country. Also make it towable behind motor homes. Plus have an extendable periscope to see over all those SUV's, mini-vans, and 4X4 pickups that are clogging the roads ;-)

MNSteve

subewannabe

Mike, the 2.5i with a MT is looking better and better as gas prices keep climbing. It would take electroshock therapy, however, to erase my memories of driving the WRX and the Forester XT....must....have....turbo!

Mark

ateixeira

I keep recalling the +7mpg change in the UK models, at least one claim said that.

I'd like to see 23/30, that would be very impressive even with just 168hp.

-juice

qbrozen

actually, that exists .... in a Honda.

ok, so its actually 160 hp, but it gets 26/34. I would think that with AWD and a hair more power, they should be able to still achieve 23/30. So I don't see it being far fetched at all. As a matter of fact, I don't see why they don't already offer it.

ateixeira

Well, the RT4WD CR-V with that same exact engine gets just 21/25. Gearing and aerodynamics come in to play, though.

Some Subies get, what, 22/27? I think 23/30 is obtainable is 5th were taller. Maybe 23/28 is more realistic.

-juice

pon1

For those that have seen the new model esp the turbo, does it look like it will ride significantly higher than the current OB? I know ground clearance and wheel size have increased, but how have body height and seat height changed. How would it place in height in relation to the Forester, Volvo XC70 and 90, or Allroad.

Thanks

JP

(Also infected with the turbo virus)

eps105

Got my CR auto issue in the mail yesterday. It is NOT a press release mistake about the poor first year reliability of the Baja. The bar-chart on page 78 indicates that it has had about double the problems of the average truck, the blurb on page 69 states that first year reliability has been disappointing, and the detailed history on page 92 seems to indicate significant reported problems (5%-9.3%) with body integrity and above expected problems (2%-5%--poor for a new car) with Electrical, A/C, Brakes, and Power Equipment.

In contrast, my Forester has perfect ratings for every category (less than 2%) and has returned as their top pick for compact SUVs.

I'm sure Subaru is working out the kinks in the Baja and the second year will be significantly better.

Does this mean that the rule to never buy a first-year American car should now apply to Subaru as well??

Elliot

bblacha

2.5i could be a much better value; the costs of turbo really add up (purchase price, some repair risk, premium gas, lower mileage, higher insurance). 168hp is a bit low, and we could get an enhancement in the second year; Subaru's done that before. But oh, who can wait that long?!

Elliot: I don't know if you can make that rule; the first year of current-gen Legacy/OB turned out OK. Also, CR's WRX reliability ratings are just "average" - WRX comes from Japan. I think the rule is complexity: Baja's body and the WRX's turbo are extra failure points. Join the 2.5i fan club :-)

ateixeira

First-year jitters apply to almost any car. The 1999 Honda Odyssey wasn't very good, doors wouldn't close and trannies went out all the time. The 2004 Prius is hot but that thread is full of complaints too.

168hp is ok when you factor in the 180lb weight loss. It should feel fine, actually. It's just we're speed freaks! )

-juice

locke2c

elliot,

CR's findings seem to be in conflict with logic. The baja's AC, electrical, brakes and power equipment are all identical to the forester.

perhaps someone got their data wrong due to human factors (complainers tend to report more problems than happy people report no problems), too small of a sample size, or this is just another example that any one source shouldn't be viewed as definitive truth.

~c

qbrozen

for some reason, i just consider the CRV an anomoly. It just makes no sense to me how that vehicle's mileage is so low. Its not much better than the Pilot which weighs over a half a ton more and has another 1.1 liters, 2 more cylinders, and a heckuva lot more power.

Instead, look at the Odyssey vs. the Pilot. Barely a difference in mileage even with the addition of AWD. So why the heck can't someone do something similar with a 4-banger and subaru AWD? Add AWD to a Civic and I bet you'd still get really good mileage.

kens

I was also thinking that the sample size was very small. It's essentially an OB wagon with a switchback.

Ken