Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

brorjace

I just realized someone asked me a question about Chevron.

If more people realized how much of a product's price came from the costs associated with marketing, they'd be floored.

It does not surprise me that the Chevron oil, while I'm convinced it is at least as good as any other SL oil, is much less expensive. They dod not advertise much (except for their Techron) and sponsor little (if any) racing.

This alone can make the difference in price.

But I am torn as I AM a racing fan and like to see corporations support my past time. >;^)

--- Bror Jace

tntitan

I had bought some Mobil 1 thinking that synthetic was the way to go and that I could do less oil changes. However, after reading all of this I am now ready to return it and get Chevron and just go with the recommended 3,750 mile changes that Honda calls for with the Honda (filtech) filters.

I know that you drive a Honda and use the Redline oil but do you think that the Chevron will do everything I need to get 200+K on my Hondas. Both my wife and I cruise around driving between 2000-3500 rpm's on our Honda automatic 4 bangers. After all I have read it just seems overkill to do more. I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

pjksr

As we get ready to mow lawns up her in the North, does anyone have any suggestions on small, 4-cycle, air-cooled engine oils?

Is there any real advantage to using a heavy-duty engine oil like Delvac or Delo, with their higher detergencies, and slightly higher ZDDP levels?

Pete

armtdm

the cheapest synthetic I can find in my mower and lawn chipper/vac. This currently turns out to be the Wally World synthetic. I do admit, on the vac side it uses more oil then if I used a straight 30w as the 10W30 Wal Mart brand seems a little thin. been using synthetic in this equip for about 5 years now, mower is 13 years old, vac is 7. In fact, had ot have the fan blades welded on the vac as Sears no longer makes the part, engine fine, rest of unit falling part.

Change oil twice a year, spring and end of July.

slickracer

I use Valvoline SAE 30 in my garden tractor exclusively. When the heads were removed at 700+ hours the cylinders still had the hone marks.

brorjace

tntitan, I'd trust just about any SL grade oil for 3-4,000 mile changes. I honestly don't know if there is a significant difference between the brands anymore. I'd opt for Chevron and a couple others over some because they refine their own and they don't simply buy from another refiner and re-bottle it. That first route just seems more honest to me. >:^)

On the air cooled engines around here, I think as long as you go on the thick side, you'll do OK. Many newer ones recommed the thinner oils (5W30, etc ...) and I use them, but only when brand new. After that I switch to the 15W40 and thicker oils.

As I already mentioned, I like the diesel oils because their additive package is good for extended drains and their high TBN can sit for a longer period of time before allowing corrosion to start.

But, slickracer's positive experience with straight 30 does not surprise me.

--- Bror Jace

adc100

Threw away a perfectly good Briggs engine away 3 years ago. Ran 30+ years. As long as its wet it'll work.

silvercoupe

For those of you looking for 5W-20 oil I saw it today at the local Wal Mart in Castrol, Pennzoil and Motorcraft.

pjksr

For those of you looking for Chevron oils, Wal-Marts in Connecticut are starting to carry them (Rocky Hill is out, lots at Newington). :-)

karl

When I was growing up, I recall my dad replacing his gas lawnmower every 5-6 years... seems the thing just wouldn't start or stay running. He's not mechanically inclined (prefers woodworking).

I think I know why the mowers kept failing now. I don't remember ever seeing him change the oil in the lawnmower.

I'm going to call him and ask about this....

-Karl (uses a push mower, no gas or oil required)

jc1973

WONDERING IF 1540 OIL IS BETTER THAN 1030 I HAVE A 1990 FORD VAN USUALLY I RUN 1540 OIL AND MOTORCRAFT FILTERS ALSO I USUALLY ADD A BOTTLE OF MARVEL MYSTERY OIL AT EACH CHANGE IS THIS STUFF BENIFICIAL TO THE ENGINE

bobistheoilguy

It is nothing more than a top end lubricant and has no value to your base oil.

I personally like the 15w40 in my car/trucks and that's all I run.

fleetwoodsimca

I appreciate the 15W-40 fleet/diesel rated oils, also. What do you think about using them in very recent vehicles that call for 10W-30, or even 5W-30? What about warranty considerations?

bobistheoilguy

What the warrenter (dealership/manufacture) requires. only after such warr issues are past and out of date should you even consider using any alternative lubricants. This also includes not using any kind of additive such as marvel myster oil.

brorjace

I think the only reason to add Marvel Mystery oil to a crankcase was to "winterize" oils to make them easier to pump in the winter. But modern multi-viscosity oils makes this superfluous. If you want to add it to the fuel as a top-cylinder lubricant, I think it's a good idea ... on older, carbureted engines. I don't trust this stuff through fuel injectors.

I've always treated lawn mowers and other lawn & garden equipment at least as well as my car. Maintenance is not that time consuming and small capacities make it cheap to do.

A friend of mine changed the oil in an ancient lawn mower and the oil came out grey. I don't think it had ever been changed in its long life. He later told his father (the mower's owner) what he did and his father looked at him like the kid had repacked his muffler bearings or topped off his headlight fluid. Some people. >:^)

I'm another believer in 15W40 oils ... unless you are like me and try to squeeze every last mpg out of your car.

--- Bror Jace

opera_house_wk

I just cleaned the sludged head of a 89 Jeep. PCV system had clogged for years and created a black granular sludge. Found large amounts of this in oil filter when opened up. Cleaned up the head with Dextron and washed it all down into the pan. This soup stayed in the oil for 2 weeks (120 miles). Drained the oil through fine meshed filter screen. Only a couple specks were found. Like it all got dissolved. Will open up the oil filter in 2 weeks with the next oil change.

Question:
Is Dextron @ 15% really a good sludge cleaner?

What qualities make Dextron a bad motor oil besides its viscosity?

hoyahenry

Shell Oil buys Pennzoil-Quaker State motor oil company for $1.8 billion in cash. (CNN/Money)

So, does this mean Shell will be supplying WalMart?

fleetwoodsimca

Shell is already supplying Advance (Western) Auto with Shell branded oil as the "house brand" there. Shell owns Texaco, and advises that the Texaco name will soon be replaced by the Shell name on filling stations. What's next? don't blink. (:oÞ

brorjace

Is it just me or has there been more merger & aquisitions in the last 3-4 years in the petroleum business than in almost any other?

Pennzoil and Quaker State merge ...

Chevron buys Amoco, then Havoline ...

Mobil buys Exxon ...

Now Shell is buying one of the newly formed companies?

Yikes! Don't blink is right!

I'm sure I've missed a few. Probably smaller, regional oil companies that have gotten gobbled up.

--- Bror Jace

joffficer

I have 1300 miles on a new Hyundai. As I'd like to keep the car for at least 100k miles I was wondering if those oil analysis would be a good idea (every other year or so)? I'd don't know if they would help me keep track of the engine's inside's or are they a waist of $20? It was also thinking this might give me some leverage if I should need major warranty work.
I work on jet engines, and we pull samples every 60 hours. Of course the synthetic oil in those doesn't get changed nearly as often as a car's oil.

tony_riek

I was visiting the Auto-Rx.com web site today as I use their products to clean my engines. They have a picture of a V-6 engine with sludge and 2 oil filter changes at 250 and 550 miles after using their product. Amazing how much sludge was removed. I think that the Testitomial #5 is the owner of that engine, so read it also. I used it in my 1988 Surburban and Ford PSD with good results.

adc100

Much better to "de-sludge" gradually by switching to synthetic oil-in my opinion.

fleetwoodsimca

brorjace: We could do daily tallies on which brands are which, and who has merged with what, etc., and use a charting system to track this. The problem is that we'd need a full time administrator to run the thing! (:oÞ

tony_riek

Auto-Rx is a Fatty ester/non solvent cleaner and removes the sludge in layers rather than in gobs like solvents, that can clog your oil pick-up screen and small oil holes, in fact it cleans them also. That is why it is left in for 500 miles, slow cleaning during vehicle use. I am not an expert or salesman of Auto-Rx, just an interested/satisfied user. At apprx. $7500 for a new PSD engine, I am VERY particular what goes in my engine. I think the pictures on their site can explain it better than I ever could.

armtdm

Synthetic will not clean up the sludge nor varnish. I purchased a 97 Isuzu Rodeo that had varnish coating inside valve covers and for past 15,000 miles have run Amsoil 10W30 (a few changes as well) Varnish was not removed. Amsoil also informed me it would not remove varnish or sludge. Besides, the Toytoa sludged engines are really in bad shape as you can see from that picture. Now, on to AUto-RX. It is too early to post results on my Rodeo. I used this product for two reasons, remove the varnish and reduce/eliminate a few seal/gasket leaks.

Now I am post drain and new filter stage (new oil and filter {just residual RX left in engine}of their process) and Auto_RX says to wait 1500 miles before judging their product. Mixed results so far.

I may conclude, but not sure yet, that this product (although it does no harm) may also do no good in a well running basically clean engine. Jury is out for another 1400 miles or so. It did remove the varnish in valve covers and moving parts I could see but did not in upper filler neck where the oil does not circulate well. The filters were basically clean upon removal, thus no dirt or crud in engine supposedly but at 73,000, should there be? RX seems to say yes.

The oil seepages/leaks have not changed as yet

mrdetailer

Why would Auto-RX stop leaks?

I would think that if it cleaned out an engine, that it might actually unclog some leaks that were stuffed with gunk.

Try Valvoline Maxlife, or another higher mileage engine oil from Quaker State, or Castrol. They are supposed to have seal swellers that stop pinhole leaks.

tony_riek

The composition of Auto-Rx has a component of it's chemical make-up that does in fact swell seals along with its cleaning ability. Remember that Auto-Rx is not a solvent, just an engine cleaner that does it's job without hindering the engine oil from doing it's job while in use. Max Life does contain alot of additives and fills a niche in the auto market. But please don't heat it to an extreme tempature, as you may find fumes that are very hazardous from some of their proprietary additives. Check the MHDS on Auto-Rx, and you will find that it is a safe product. I guess the thing that I like is that it has a money back warranty if it doesn't perform as stated. Try to get your money back on Max Life if it doesn't perform as advertised.

armtdm

It can reduce or eliminate seal leaks (assuming that the seals are in good shape) by cleaning the varnish and crud from around the gaskets and seals (which is why they may leak more during the process) and then permitting the new oil to swell the seals etc and reduce the seepage. Will not repair worn or broken seals but Rx says it will reduce seepage in otherwise good seals. So, that it what the company informed me anyway which is why they suggest going the 1500 miles post treatment to let the regular oil do its thing.

Will see. Just looked undeneath tonight, one may be getting better but still too early.

fmiller3

Auto-Rx does not "Swell Seals" it makes them extremely pliable so Auto-Rx can clean third party abrasives from behind the seals and off the seals themself. The petroleum chemistry of oil in a clean engine "Stiffens" up the seals and they adheres back on the engine metal firmly. One post is about a Suzuki with a rear main seal leak. In
Japan seals are made of "Silicone" and Auto-Rx is the only non hazardous chemistry that can recondition silicone seals.This poster would be looking at a few hundred dollars to replace this seal he spent $ 24.97.The chemistry so freely thrown around is BS. The additive packages you pay for are pretty much worthless as no synthetic oil
or HD or Marvel or X-1R anything lubricates through third party abrasives or engine sludge it
skips to any clean metal it finds lubricates there and looks for more clean metal, now you know why you have wear patterns.Here is someone telling you Auto-Rx is cleaning his varnish off what he considers a clean engine and also leak might have slowed down. What do you want for $24.97 when you spend $4.00 per quart for oil which hardens up in your engines friction points and can't do a thing because those friction points are plugged ? Thanks feel lots better.

adc100

Take note on the Zinc and Chevron..

http://au.geocities.com/ozbrick850/engine-oiladditives.html

CapeCod

I have valve noise... ticking on 1998 Olds Silhoutte at 86,000 miles.
I tried some additives with limited results.
Should I consider a "flush" the new oil change?
Is the flush likely to lead to burning and leaking at 85000 miles????
Which weight oil 5-30 or 10-30 or 10-40 would lead to quietest running during the summer in New England?????
Thanks

armtdm

Not sure but the Pres or Ceo or owner of Auto-Rx is Frank Miller. Assume he is defending his product. No problem with that.

What does one want for $24.97, that I object to. It is not what you pay for something per se it is whether the product lives up to its claims. The implication is well, who cares, only $24.97 what have you got to lose if it does no harm. Well, besides $24.97 someone could be making money off of false claims. Now, this product may not be a false claim I am just stating the observations here especially in regard to what the consumer has seen over the years with Prolong, Zmax, Teflon additives etc. etc. . As I noted above, my verdict remains out until all evidence is in.

Now that $4 quart of oil, so far it has lived up to its claims as has the $.99/quart oil. But they don't claim one hell of a lot either! I guess someday we will see a product that says, hey, 75% of the time in a mechanically sound engine this product will work but under some circumstances it may not so you may be at risk for the funds outlayed. Guess that wouldn't sell though.

Anyway, time will tell.

opera_house_wk

I discovered years ago, a method to clean varnish off valve covers. I lightly washed the valve covers in gasoline and left them in the sun to dry. After a few hours, the varnish would crack, a slight tap on the valve cover would then cause all the varnish to fall off leaving clean bright metal. The gas dried out the varnish and caused it to shrink. Any vibration caused it to fall off even from hidden baffle areas. Good example of what solvents may do in your engine. Leave clumps that block passages. I use a Mercury Marine spray foam product for cleaning that green carb sludge. This is an ester which slowly eats away at the contamination. An ester product like this would be safer to use in an engine to desludge.

bluedevils

The Chevron Supreme 5W30 oil at Wal-Mart is still SJ rated, while the other grades all seem to be SL rated. The grades other than 5W30 all have the "Contains ISOSYN" graphic on the bottle, but 5W30 doesn't. Until today, I was under the impression that the 5W30 did NOT contain the ISOSYN stuff (I am presuming this is the hydrocracked stuff that makes this a "synthetic blend" oil). I figured this advancement corresponded with Chevron's introduction of the SL-rated oil. However, the box of a case of SJ 5W30 has the "Contains ISOSYN" graphic that is NOT on the bottle.

I just thought I'd mention this.

brorjace

BlueDevils, The Chevron I've bought for my father's 2000 Mercury Grand Marquis (both 5W30 & 10W30) is all SL rated. Yes, I got all of it at Walmart for $1.08 per quart. >:^)

I think Chevron was using hydrocracked stocks even before the switch to SL, at least they were in their Delo 400 line of oils.

--- Bror Jace

bluedevils

bror, I think you're right:

"I think Chevron was using hydrocracked stocks even before the switch to SL, at least they were in their Delo 400 line of oils."

My findings re: 5W30 at the Wal-Mart today support that theory.

$1.08 a quart seems like a total steal for this oil.

fleetwoodsimca

That's why I loved it at $0.89 per quart in case lots at Checker, PLUS a mail in rebate of $2.40 per case of twelve! Yeah! (:oÞ (:oÞ

brorjace

Dude, you should seek forgiveness for your sins. Buying a name-brand oil that cheap is stealing!

What boggles my mind is that at one time, SL grade Chevron was on the shelf alongside SJ Mobil 1 ... which was/is 4 times more expensive.

And, according to testing, the SL Chevron would offer superior protection. Ummm, what's wrong with this picture?

--- Bror Jace

adc100

You get what you pay for IMHO.

zr2rando

Y'all talking Chevron Supreme or Chevron Supreme Synthetic?

bluedevils

but the point seems to be that the "regular" Chevron Supreme has hydrocracked base stocks, thus qualifying it as a synthetic blend or maybe even a full synthetic, depending on the specifics of the oil's composition and depending on whose definition of "synthetic" is used.

bluedevils

Besides Chevron Supreme, does anyone know of other oils marketed and priced as "conventional" oils that contain hydrocracked base stocks? Ford's Motorcraft brand 5W20 bottles say the oil is synthetic blend or something, but I'm not quite sure what the "synthetic" part is in this blend. Plus the price, $1.77 at Wal-Marts in the Detroit area, is closer to a synthetic blend than to a conventional oil. Other than that, I can't think of much else.

I see 3 major price categories in mass market brand oils:

conventional oil: $1-$1.50/quart (outliers are sub-$1 house brands and others such as Castrol that are often > $1.50/qt)

synthetic blend or other specific-use oil (e.g. oils for older engines such as Valvoline Max Life): $2-2.50/qt.

full synthetic: $4-4.50/qt.

Chevron Supreme seems to fit in the bottom part of the cheapest price category, yet the specs from Chevron and the discussion here seem to indicate Chevron Supreme plays in a higher league from a performance standpoint.

brorjace

Well, Chevron is the cheapest SL-classified name-brand oil I've found anywhere.

I think if you want a better bargain, you'll have to take a chance with a store-brand oil. Probably OK but I won't go that route.

Anyone know what Mobil's conventional oil is going for these days? About a year ago it was retailing for almost exactly $1.00 per quart ... but that was before reformulation.

--- Bror Jace

bluedevils

In my area, it's one of the lowest-priced major-brand oils around. Usually a buck or so, sometimes a bit more ($1.09, 1.19, etc.).

fleetwoodsimca

We REALLY should support Chevron RIGHT NOW! Vote with your wallet, oil consumers! Let's show our appreciation for the opportunity to snag SL oil at a price competitive with SJ. Go to Checker during this month and insist that they give you a blank CSK (Checker/Schuck's/Kragen) March 2002 monthly rebate form. The deal is right there. the rebate will save you 20 cents a quart. In my area, the before-rebate price has been dropped to 89 cents per quart.

pjksr

Supergard is also formulated with hydrocracked stocks, marketed as a "regular oil." In fact, their 5W-30 has a higher flash point than Chevron's. Not much advertising, save for the #99 NASCAR...

Chevron Supreme is not available to everyone/everywhere (Citgo is at Sam's Club nationwide), but Chevron might be starting to get into the Havoline Lubes distribution pipeline, as it's now available in the Northeast (in small quantities).

I'd say that all "SL" oils are pretty good these days...maybe even Shell/Pennzoil/Quaker State.

bluedevils

fleetwood, are you implying that you expect SL oils to be priced significantly above the SJ oils? So far, this has not been my experience.

sorry pj, I forgot that you had mentioned Citgo Supergard a while back. Is it just their SL stuff with the hydrocracked stocks, or did they already have this stuff in their SJ?

tntitan

After reading the many opinions on this thread I finally decided to forego the synthetic oil and just bought a couple of cases of Chevron SL at COSTCO for 11.29 a case and plan to get some $3 Champion filters (either the Walmart Supertech or the some STP) and just change the oil every 3,750 miles as my Honda owner's manual recommends. At $7/oil change I should be able to get however many 100K miles I want from my 2000 Accord and 2002 CRV. Thanks to many of you for sharing your knowledge and expertise.

pjksr

Blue: Not sure how long they've been using hydrocracked stocks, but note that Citgo does their own refining. Their MSDSs do list some "solvent-refined" base oil content in their oils; Chevron's doesn't. Interestingly, Citgo refining is owned by a Venezuelan oil company--not sure if this means their oil comes from there.

bluedevils

tntitan, your local Costco has Chevron Supreme, eh? Sadly, mine does not. At least not yet. Are you in Tennessee?