Well its not that simple. For one thing if a reasonable person should have know it was a material misrepresentation then the contract is still valid. Remember the Isuzu Commercial of many decades ago when the lying salesman drive the car faster than a speeding bullet? Well thats no a misrepresentation because a reasonable person wouldn't believe it.
Secondly in many states something like this has to be in writing for it to be valid. Otherwise its a he said/she said situation.
Make some noise and you might get something from the dealership, but taking them to court may be more trouble than its worth.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In our state, the customer signs and initials a state disclosure document that makes it clear that only what is in writing is enforcable under state law.
Why not? They also have things they need to keep frozen. They can't store that meat outside as the temps don't always stay below freezing and the wolfs would get it anyway.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"The asking if I would consider a Corolla instead of a Camry is a pretty good strategy to let the consumer save face, though I think a few customers may get a bit perturbed that you may be insinuating they are to poor or cheap to afford a Camry???"
When it's done initially and not at the negotiating table when it's obvious the customer can't afford a Camry it's ok. If I ran into you and you told me you wanted a Camry LE with xx options then I know I have someone that's done some research so I don't have to lead you around looking at this and that one. We go straight to the one you're looking for. Go on a test drive and wrap it up. NO? What do you mean no! If you have to check with your wife, go feed the dog, etc. than I didn't do my job. I would have asked how familiar you are with the car. Believe it or not the brochures and manufacturer's websites don't tell you everything. Our factory source books are a wealth of information that's not available to the consumer. You only get the glossy pictures, we get the explanation of oversteer and understeer, dual independent VVTi, etc. But it always comes down to what is important to the customer. Mackabee
"The point I was "trying" to make is that as a consumer I don't think it wise to let the salesman know that this car is everything you ever wanted in a vehicle. When you get to the negotiation table you're probably going to be looking at a salesman who has a little bit more leverage in getting a higher price."
In my experience every customer I've ever had that said that to me on the lot never bought a car. That is your typical stroker.
pushingtin, that was quite a rant. Perhaps you should stick to decaf while you are posting
It is a "pet peeve" of mine when a car salesman pulls the old "I have a family to feed" on me, which is basically what you are doing in your rant. Suppose I was your customer and I said to you, "I am just making ends meet. Can you give me that car for under invoice? I would really appreciate it." I am guessing that I would probably get laughed out of the dealership! So why is it okay for you as a salesperson to ask me to pay more for the deal out of charity?
I remember one time I was with my dad while he was buying a car, and we were dealing with a salesperson with a nice suit, jewelry, high-end shoes, and a nice watch so he was obviously doing okay. This was in a dealership which was currently in renovations to expand their operation, so the dealer wasn't hurting for cash either. When he and my dad were working on the deal, he dropped the "family to feed" line on him. Now my dad is a saint, so he bit his tongue, but you could tell that on the inside he wanted to say something.
We had a decent middle class home, but with four kids to support, money was always tight. This was the first new car my parents were buying as long as I could remember. Therefore, it was very insulting to insinuate that my dad had to pay a couple thousand dollars more than he should just for "charity". Besides, given the fact that neither the salesman nor the dealer were hurting for money, it was a just a sleazy ploy on his part.
In the end, my dad and the salesman agreed on a fair deal. I forgot what the exact deal was, but it was a couple percent over invoice.
In my own car shopping, I have also experienced the "feed the family" line. I have never bought from any saleperson who used that ploy. I am thinking that the next time someone pulls that on me, I'll reach into my wallet, pull out a $20, put it on the desk, and say, "Here's some grocery money for tonight. Now let's get back to negotiations."
Personally, I feel that there are a lot more worthwhile charities than the car salesperson's benevolence fund. There are a lot of car salespeople who are making a good living at what they do. Many are probably making a better living than me.
If you feel that you aren't getting fair compensation for your time, don't blame the customer. Blame your employer! The dealership is the one who determines your compensation plan. The dealership is the one who signs your paycheck.
Besides, the folks who own your dealership probably have a lot more money than me or most of your cusomters, so they might be in a better financial position to give you a "handout" than me.
I do agree with you that there any many people who only consider price without regard for the level of service, and that reduces the incentive to provide great service. I must admit there was one time where I had a salesperson who really didn't deserve the sale, but whom I did end up buying from. In retrospect, I felt really bad about that decision. However, every other time I bought from someone who did provide good service.
I am thinking that the next time someone pulls that on me, I'll reach into my wallet, pull out a $20, put it on the desk, and say, "Here's some grocery money for tonight. Now let's get back to negotiations."
Just tell him you also have a family to feed and they are not going hungry so his family can eat.
Or tell him that Marysfancy is running 20 to one in the second race and is a sure thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Oh yeah.... regarding the reputation of salespeople...
Most salespeople that I have dealt with have been honest and helpful. However, there have been those who are less than honest with me as well. I think it is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the whole bunch.
I have experienced the following:
1. Attempt to sell VIN etching for 1000% markup by pre-printing it on the invoice as if it is a required charge.
2. Attempt to give me an interest rate way above market rate and hiding it by quoting the "per month".
3. Attempt to sell a demo model at a new vehicle price.
4. Attempt to sell a car at a high price with the promise that there will be an "extra surprise" which will compensate for that price. I never found out what that extra surprise is.
5. Sold a car without floormats by not mentioning that they aren't included, and then asked to pay some ripoff price for them once I realized that they weren't present. I am surprised they didn't tell me that tires were extra, too! [I admit that this was partially my fault for assuming that all cars came with floormats. I have since learned that this isn't always the case.]
Fortunately, these examples have been the exception rather than the rule. In most cases, salespeople that I have encountered have been honest and forthright. However, due to the fact that there ARE dishonest ones out there, I think many consumers, including myself, always go into the car showroom expecting the worst.
Personally, I don't like going through life expecting the worst, since that is no way to live. On the other hand, I also don't like getting ripped off either, especially on one of the biggest purchases that I make. Therefore, I always feel the need to educate myself so that I know when I am being dealt with honestly, or when I am being swindled.
Humblecoder has a point. I am in sales and my skin crawls when I hear a salesman use the "feed the family" line. To me for the most part, that means that you didn't do a very good job with your presentation of the car. I understand that there are those shoppers that will squeeze hard on the profit- even when lets say you're overnighting their paperwork,handling over seas shipping and transporting the car to the port for them ( a lot more time consuming than your typical sale) . Unfortunately, thats just part of the job sometimes- a lot of work for $75. The way the entire automotive sales industry is run is to blame for this.
Thanks for offering your perspective - I truly care and empathize with my customers who have had horrible experiences dealing with car salesmen and their respective dealerships. Let me just state a couple of facts, that way I need not rant: I have only been selling Toyotas for two months - which is also the amount of time I have been selling cars in total. I worked in the commodities industry for 12 years prior, some spent on the sales end and the other on the trading slash analyst side. I took the job because I am 35 years old have a couple of kids and knew that selling Toyotas at a high volume dealership could offer me the chance at a pretty lucrative career without the formal training needed to land a high end corporate gig. I'd like to say that for the most part I absolutely hate car shopping, buying and dealing with the salespeople and/or the man behind the curtain - most of my experiences have been negative while sitting on the other side of the desk. The approach that I take being a salesman now is to really assist the customer and make sure that her experience is positive, I never ever try to play the guilt game by using the family to feed line - obviously we all have to feed our families and as a consumer we all want a deal, want to save money with any of the purchases that we make. Its just being a savvy shopper and I can appreciate that. Like I said previously, I want to befriend my customers and help them feel at ease, because I would hate to be thought of as anything less than moral or honest...and so that has been my approach so far. I believe that it has paid off for me as I have received nothing but positive survey responses that detail the customers experience with me and the dealership. That having been said - I have received a decent amount of mini deals by trying to accommodate the customer and his goal of getting a really good deal. So in the end I haven't made a great deal of money on the deal itself, but I have earned bonuses from Toyota for having such a high rating of overall customer satisfaction. Goal achieved. Of course there are times when it has been difficult to maintain a positive attitude when you are getting the signals that the customer is only there to "shop" price and best deal without regard for me and the service that I am trying to provide. I really want to change the mentality of the salesperson and that of the customer by stressing service, product knowledge, and working more on the client's behalf than that of the dealership. The compromising aspect is when I know that I am getting "stroked" and it is obvious that the customer sees me as nothing more than a snake spewing my venom on any and all. But I digress, and will continue with my aspirations of revolutionizing this industry and putting the customer first which I believe will translate into more sales over time, with positive word of mouth networking and earning repeat business from not only the customer in front of me today, but his friends, his family, and hopefully in 3 or 4 years that original customer himself.
Why should a salesman ONLY make $750.00 on a $30,000 car deal? Why can't the car manufacturer "own" these dealerships and pay the salesman a flat rate, just like everyone else at the dealership? Why can't it be that the MSRP for the car determined by the corporation be that when walking into the dealership? A buyer goes in for the $30,000 car that was advertised for $30,000, not have to deal with the "4 square sheet" invoice, not have to haggle over the deal, invoicing fees, accessories, etc.; then the customer gets the car that was desired without having the salesman pull out all stops to show that this is a good deal with no tricks up the sleeve, EVERYBODY including the salesman makes a nice living, and EVERYBODY'S SATISFIED ON ALL SIDES???
Why should some dealerships make more than the other, why should some pull some shady deals and tarnish the whole rep of salesmen and dealerships, making people FEAR buying a new car? This whole haggling over prices, better deals, back and forth, "please, I have a family to feed" deal, aggravation over who gets what and for how much, etc. really sucks and the whole car selling industry shouldn't be like that. THE CAR WILL GET SOLD, REGARDLESS, BUT DEALS MADE BETWEEN PEOPLE AND DEALERSHIPS SHOULDN'T HAVE BE DONE LIKE DIRTY DOGS. IF THERE WAS A FLAT RATE, A FLAT STANDARD WAY FOR EVERYONE TO BE WINNERS, I'D CERTAINLY ENTICE ME MORE TO BUY A NEW CAR.
Why can't the car manufacturer "own" these dealerships and pay the salesman a flat rate, just like everyone else at the dealership?
Why the manufacturers can't and should not own the retail outlets was address at length in the "Stories from the Front Lines" forum some time ago. Actually, you will be surprised to lean that service managers and advisors, sales managers, general managers, used car managers, finance directors, managers and contractors, and parts managers are all commissioned. Even techs have to reach "book goals" to make 40 hours pay. The book usually pays less hours than a job takes. For a more pleasant experience, most high end stores have a different atmosphere.
I don't know what book you are referring to. My experience (and most of people I know) is the car repair industry (including or especially dealers) have three customers charged one hour each (because book says so) then in the garage the highly qualified tech (the one that is on the bill for $100/hr) is taking care of all three cars at once for an hour, perhaps hour and half. Five minutes here, ten minutes there. The rest is done mininum wage kid.
Why should a salesman ONLY make $750.00 on a $30,000 car deal?
The flip side of the coin is why should they make that much?
Why can't the car manufacturer "own" these dealerships and pay the salesman a flat rate, just like everyone else at the dealership?
Because I don't think the government will let them. Much like it is illegal for movie studios to own the theaters.
Plus sales is a performance based pay, the more you sell the more you make. Or more properly the more profit you make your employer the more you make.
Why can't it be that the MSRP for the car determined by the corporation be that when walking into the dealership?
Its called getting what the market will bear. FWIW few things get sold at MSRP.
Why should some dealerships make more than the other,
its called a free market system, more efficient companies providing a service that people will pay for make more. There is no guarantee that any company will make a profit.
IF THERE WAS A FLAT RATE, A FLAT STANDARD WAY FOR EVERYONE TO BE WINNERS,
But there are few things out there where it is that way. I had a friend who was looking for a GPS system for his car, one of those that is portable and can switched between cars. Well we looked (over the net) at Circuit City, Best Buy, Bass Pro Shop and Wally World. For places four different prices none at MSRP. We went to Best buy to look at it it real life and asked if they were flexible on the price. They said no, to which we replied that Wally World had it at a certain price (they were the least expensive). The salesperson went and got his manager who matched Wally Worlds Price.
Likewise me and "she who must be obeyed" are looking at a new HDTV. We figured out what we wanted and did some shopping. Three different stores, three different prices none at MSRP. I will bet next months mortgage that the two higher priced stores will match the lower priced store.
Why should car dealers be any different?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I admire your attitude and wish you luck. I came into this business hoping to "revolutionize" if you will and make a difference. Forget about it. One person is not going to do it. The whole industry has to do it, starting with the manufacturer and on down to the dealer leverl. My advice to you is just be yourself and never compromise your honesty and integrity for a few bucks. If you can get up in the morning and look yourself in the mirror and say "I would buy a car from me" you're doing allright. You never have to lie, cheat, or deceive a customer to sell a car. When you do you just cheated yourself. "To thy own self be true" Vic
5. Sold a car without floormats by not mentioning that they aren't included, and then asked to pay some ripoff price for them once I realized that they weren't present. I am surprised they didn't tell me that tires were extra, too! [I admit that this was partially my fault for assuming that all cars came with floormats. I have since learned that this isn't always the case.]
Again with the "misled me" crap? So when I sell you a car, I have to present you as list of things the car DOESN'T have? Do I have to mention that insurance is not included? navigation? refrigerator? Get over yourself - if it's not on the sticker - it's not included.
Do you feel like your salesperson has been less than straightforward? Tell us about it here.
I don't know if I'd classify this as being deceitful but I'll always remember years ago when we were shopping for a T-top Camaro.
This was years before anyone had ever heard of the word "Internet". I did a lot of research at the local library and came across some publications that listed the price of the car and every option and how much the dealer paid, along with what a buyer could expect to pay if they negotiated a bit - sort of what you can easily find nowadays online.
I printed up a proposal and took copies with me to several dealers. One young kid actually told me that they weren't in the business of giving cars away. He obviously hadn't been a salesman for very long because I wouldn't have bought from him even if he had agreed to my price after that.
I went to another Chevy dealer, presented him with the exact same proposal, and they met my offer. They tried to hornswaggle me on my trade-in but I bamboozeled a used car dealer down the road with a performance that would have made Hollywood proud and got my asking price for that as well.
The funny thing on the new car is that the dealer I bought it from didn't have it but they did a locator search and ended up getting it from the lot of the place where the kid insulted me. I should have driven it back there, honked the horn and waved but I never did.
On another note, my wife's 2003 PT Cruiser did not come with a rear sway bar, although it was listed right on the Monroney label (window sticker). Chrysler said it was no longer needed because the rear axle was stronger than previous years. Ah, the good old decontenting to save a few manufacturing dollars. It was the GT turbo, supposedly with a sport suspension. My view is that if the sway bar was listed it should have been included or they should have taken it off the sticker.
I had someone tell me that I should have inspected the car prior to delivery. Yeah, right. I'm going to grab a flashlight, crawl underneath, and see if all of the basic suspension parts are there on my new car. I thought they had inspectors who are supposed to verify such things before they leave the factory.
She still has the Cruiser and it still doesn't have a rear sway bar.
I remembered that last experience because of the previous message where someone said if it's not on the sticker - it's not included.
I am not saying that they shouldn't, but not saying that they should either. If they can make that or more thats fine. If they can't well its no skin off my nose. I say let the market set the price.
All I am saying is look at the issue from both sides.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yeah - the warranty book I can believe. Manufacturers basically squeeze the dealers out. But the same thing happens in reverse when with book time used by non-warranty works becomes grossly overinflated. I think it's especially evident in those small run-the-mill jobs that don't require big know how and could be done even by the owner with right tools and spare time. Experienced tech would do it in an hour, but book says two. Two hours here, three hours there... Customer drops the car off in the morning and picks it up late afternoon, so nobody would notice number of jobs booked for that time.
Sorry if I went on my own rant. You just happened to hit one of my "hot button" issues. Sounds like you do "get it", and I'm sure your attitude will make you a success in the long run. Remember that Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'm sure if you are able to keep your perspective, you will eventually find success!
"...I haven't made a great deal of money on the deal itself, but I have earned bonuses..."
So are you saying that you can make up for a short deal by getting a volume bonus and a CSI bonus? How many more units would you have to move to bring your pay per unit up to say $300 just from the bonuses?
BTW, every person in retail has strokers and grinders. The only difference is that I have them do it to me on $1 deals. On any given day I will have 15 to 20 people who will pump me for advice and then go to Wal-Mart, accuse me of being either a liar or a cheat or just try to get something for nothing because they are cheap.
I feel you pain brother. Just try to think about the nice customers who treat you with respect and offer you fair compensation. The others will make you as bitter as they are.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
5. Sold a car without floormats by not mentioning that they aren't included, and then asked to pay some ripoff price for them once I realized that they weren't present. I am surprised they didn't tell me that tires were extra, too! [I admit that this was partially my fault for assuming that all cars came with floormats. I have since learned that this isn't always the case.]
Again with the "misled me" crap? So when I sell you a car, I have to present you as list of things the car DOESN'T have? Do I have to mention that insurance is not included? navigation? refrigerator? Get over yourself - if it's not on the sticker - it's not included
Micosilver, I think you might also be a candidate for decaf.
You are absolutely right, micosilver, and as I indicated I partially blame myself for not being educated on this point. Rather than complaining to the dealer, I bought some aftermarket mats, chalked it up to experience, and called it a day.
On the other hand, it does seem lame of a dealer to ask somebody to pay tens of thousands for a car and not include an item which all cars have. I can't recall ever being in a car without floormats, so it seemed reasonable to me at the time that they should be included as a standard feature.
After all, light bulbs, sun visors, ignition keys, and so forth aren't explicitly included on the window sticker. However, I have this expectation that all of these items will be present in the vehicle upon delivery. I guess I included floormats in my personal list of "included items", and obviously I was wrong to have done so.
However, I did learn that if I am ever buying a car from micosilver, I should make sure to include "ignition key (1)" on the bill of sale, otherwise I might have a hard time getting the car off the lot!
That reminds me of the last time I bought a truck and was waiting to get into F&I sipping on some FREE coffee and this guy who I never saw before came up to me and asked if I needed to purchase floormats. I asked him who he was and he said he was just helping my salesman who was tied up with another sale and making sure that the floormats were covered. I passed and asked if I could have a portion of their daily newspaper till I got to Costco.
Same guy comes up to me 10 minutes later asking if I wanted to purchase mudflaps. I asked him if he was going to continue this all night. He laughed and said he was making the rounds to make sure everyone got mudflaps and floormats who needed them.
I never understood why floor mats even come with a car that has full carpeting. If you are as old as I you would remember cars came with vinyl flooring. Carpeting was for your home. Somewhere down the evolution of the automobile someone decided to put carpet on the car's floor. Then along came floor mats. First rubber floor mats to protect the carpet and now carpet floor mats to protect the carpet. :confuse: Heck the idea has caught on so much at the Mackabee household that we have carpets on top of carpeting to protect the carpets.
Dealers also get misled by customers trying to trade in damaged vehicles so this is really a 2 way street. Dealers probably have lots of horror stories as well.
A common complaint from the salesmen that I see popping up from time to time is that salesmen hate "strokes" as you call them coming in and wasting your time in order to get a price to shop. Really, doesn't this average out over time? On Monday, you get stroked by Tom whose on his first or second dealership adventure and spend 2 hours doing the work for the next salesman's easy sale....On Tuesday, Fred comes in after chasing the last dime all over the state and gives YOU the easy sale. Right or wrong, fair or not fair, like it or not, doesn't this simply go with the territory? :confuse: Of course you want to sell everybody, nothing wrong with that, it just seems to me that you win some, you lose some. Why get upset over something that you can not change?
On some of the other forums, salesmen were saying that they basically never respond to the "I'm contacting 12 dealers...gimme your best price on a Camcord GLE, black with tan leather" internet inquiries. Well, what's the point of having an internet department then? I have visited the websites of countless dealerships, low end and high end, in the Atlanta to Charlotte corridor. Many are very snazzy in appearance and I'm sure cost a good bit to build and maintain. Unfortunately, few are worth 2 cents as far as getting any real, valuable NEW inventory information. Ford and Southeast Toyota dealers come to mind as having some of the better info on new inventory. Curiously, high line dealerships seem to be the least likely to have any quality information about the new car inventory available. Oh, yes, you can make a service appointment online, (who the heck does that anyway), fill out a credit application for "pre-approval", (before I pick something out, test drive it, do the negotiation dance, etc. -- not hardly, :confuse: aren't we getting the cart before the horse?) and all sorts of other useless things--but the #1 thing I'm looking for (inventory) is often unavailable online. :confuse: :mad:
Tying this all together, How on earth is it possible to be a considerate shopper/buyer in a salesman's eyes when all roads lead back to the buyer having to come in and waste both parties time in order to get pricing and selection information??? Why waste $$$ and time on websites/internet departments if you are not going to play ball the "internet way?"
Unfortunately car sales hasn't advanced as fast as retail. I mean you can place an order for construction materials at Lowes and they will prepare your order within 48 hours depending on its size or you can order soup to nuts at WalMart and Sears online and have it delivered or arrange for store pickup. Those retailers make it easy to cross shop prices comparing between Circuit City, Best Buy and Costco. One day car sales may go that route. Doubt we'll see it anytime soon.
Why can't the car manufacturer "own" these dealerships and pay the salesman a flat rate, just like everyone else at the dealership?
Ford tried that in two test markets several years ago and it failed miserably. Also as it has already been pointed out, everyone gets paid on commission in a car dealership. Hell our receptionist gets a bonus if we hit a certain # of units in a months time.
First of all, you really need to go to Paragraph School. Wehn you crowd everything into one huge blur, it makes it hard to read.
You are going to have to come to grips with the fact that the car business is what it is. Very few of your customers will beleive in what would normally be "fair play".
They will waste your time. They will do their best to grind the last dollar out of you in an attempt to get s number to shop. They WILL drive 100 miles to save 100 dollars. They don't care about your household expenses and that is how it should be.
Many of your customers live with the fear that someone else,somewhere just may have paid less than they did for the same car and that fear tortures them. I have never understood that but that is how they feel.
You won't revolutionize the business. It is what it is.
You sound like someone who want's to make this business work for you and you can! After 12 years, probably a third of my sales are to repeat and referral customers. Were it not for these people, I would have left in disgust years ago. This can be a very negative business and not everyone can deal with this.
Don't let the negatives at work and in these forums get to you.
Traindriver, You are right about "strokes" up to a dergee. I do get some easy deals, usually people get put off by other dealers... there is nothing wrong with that, I lose customers too, sometimes it's a numbers problem, sometime people just don't click together... But when I say "stroke" - I mean someone that comes to test-drive Audi S4, VW R32, MazdaSpeed, etc, and when you call him a day later he says: yeah, I just bought a Prius...
As for the Internet way - having Internet access doesn't automatically entitle you to free meals. You have to do your research, you have to get personal with people. By sending a fax to 20 dealers you are saying: " I hate you all, I don't want to spend any of my time talking to you, and I don't want you to make ANY profit". I will give you one example of such a customer, we received an email today: She is saying that she wants a gray 4-door automatic Rabbit, she will buy it for the lowest price offered form one of 15 dealers she is contacting. Guess what - there are no gray 4-door Rabbits in the whole state!
In my own car shopping, I have also experienced the "feed the family" line. I have never bought from any saleperson who used that ploy. I am thinking that the next time someone pulls that on me, I'll reach into my wallet, pull out a $20, put it on the desk, and say, "Here's some grocery money for tonight. Now let's get back to negotiations."
the last time someone used that on me, I offered him $10/hr for mowing my lawn and cleaning out the garage. Never mentioned that again.
Thank you for understanding how and why a good sales person does their job. Without finding out what is important to a customer, one cannot fill a need.
the day the salesperson(s) do what you just said, they will no longer be called a salesperson, but a marketing person.
http://www.learnthat.com/define/view.asp?id=71 MARKETING includes identifying unmet needs; producing products and services to meet those needs: and pricing, distributing, and promoting those products and services to produce a profit.
http://www.briannorris.com/whatismarketing.html "Marketing is the ongoing process of moving people closer to making a decision to purchase, use, follow, refer, upload, download, obey, reject, conform, become complacent to someone else's products, services or values. Simply, if it doesn't facilitate a "sale" then it's not marketing."
By sending a fax to 20 dealers you are saying: " I hate you all, I don't want to spend any of my time talking to you, and I don't want you to make ANY profit".
Micosilver, Maybe that is what some people use the internet for; I don't know. I guess for me, I see it as a way to cut the BS out. I am asking for his best price -- (at what price can you sell me this Passat, stock # T5433, in the next several days??) -- give me a quote where you will be happy that you sold it and I will be happy that I got a good value that reasonably matches the "market" price/discount that I have researched on umpteen forums. I don't want to steal it from you and cause you to go out of business because I will need to service it somewhere. Give me an average price of the last 10 Passat sales where the price given represents a cut-to-the chase figure you can live with. Throw out all of the sales where, let's say the car was sold at a loss to meet some volume bonus or whatever. What is that elusive, magic, live and let live price for your dealership right here, right now? I'll gather your number and compare it to my target and the quotes from other VW dealers to see who comes closest to the blue ribbon. I'm not saying that I hate you, I just don't want to do the dog and pony show (from scratch) four or five times while we pre-qualify each other when we can get straight to the point via the internet. Like Tina Turner said, "What's love got to do with it???" Let's conduct some business, not pee on each others leg. There will be plenty of time for chit chat after the ink is dry.
She is saying that she wants a gray 4-door automatic Rabbit, she will buy it for the lowest price offered form one of 15 dealers she is contacting. Guess what - there are no gray 4-door Rabbits in the whole state!
See, I think she just made a colossal mistake here. If she had checked the inventory in her area, (assuming the various dealers post it; going back to my original rant) she would know her car did not exist or was extremely rare. If she had known that her color choice was rare, she should have asked for quotes on 4dr Rabbits equipped with x,y, and z options. After I had found a dealer that offered a good price and looked eager to sell me a car, I would THEN ask them to locate me a grey one with black leather or whatever. Looks like to me she just blew any negotiation power she had by showing her cards too soon. Now if any dealer on her email chain gets their hands on a grey Rabbit, she had better be prepared to drive to where ever and pay whatever is asked of her. It doesn't seem likely that they will dealer transfer it to her preferred dealer with the lowball internet price if they know they have an over-eager buyer for it.
By sending a fax to 20 dealers you are saying: "I hate you all, I don't want to spend any of my time talking to you, and I don't want you to make ANY profit".
And, what’s wrong with that? :P But, seriously, that is how you look at it, which is not necessarily true from the buyer’s point of view.
When a buyer sends out 20 emails, he is just trying to buy the car at market value the quickest way possible. The lowest quote that the buyer gets represents the market value of the car, because no dealer is stupid enough to sell a car below market. Anything above that price is gravy for the store and the salesman. This is no different than shopping online for a TV by going to different websites and looking up prices. The reason you want the buyer in front of you is so that you could use your training to squeeze that gravy out him, the gravy that is not supported by the market and shouldn’t be paid by the buyer.
Comments
Secondly in many states something like this has to be in writing for it to be valid. Otherwise its a he said/she said situation.
Make some noise and you might get something from the dealership, but taking them to court may be more trouble than its worth.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have to ask, did it come with unlocking locks? :shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Why not? They also have things they need to keep frozen. They can't store that meat outside as the temps don't always stay below freezing and the wolfs would get it anyway.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Proving fraud is a different story.
In other words if you cannot prove fraud there was no fraud.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When it's done initially and not at the negotiating table when it's obvious the customer can't afford a Camry it's ok.
If I ran into you and you told me you wanted a Camry LE with xx options then I know I have someone that's done some research so I don't have to lead you around looking at this and that one. We go straight to the one you're looking for. Go on a test drive and wrap it up. NO? What do you mean no! If you have to check with your wife, go feed the dog, etc. than I didn't do my job. I would have asked how familiar you are with the car. Believe it or not the brochures and manufacturer's websites don't tell you everything. Our factory source books are a wealth of information that's not available to the consumer. You only get the glossy pictures, we get the explanation of oversteer and understeer, dual independent VVTi, etc. But it always comes down to what is important to the customer.
Mackabee
In my experience every customer I've ever had that said that to me on the lot never bought a car. That is your typical stroker.
Mackabee
Mackabee
It is a "pet peeve" of mine when a car salesman pulls the old "I have a family to feed" on me, which is basically what you are doing in your rant. Suppose I was your customer and I said to you, "I am just making ends meet. Can you give me that car for under invoice? I would really appreciate it." I am guessing that I would probably get laughed out of the dealership! So why is it okay for you as a salesperson to ask me to pay more for the deal out of charity?
I remember one time I was with my dad while he was buying a car, and we were dealing with a salesperson with a nice suit, jewelry, high-end shoes, and a nice watch so he was obviously doing okay. This was in a dealership which was currently in renovations to expand their operation, so the dealer wasn't hurting for cash either. When he and my dad were working on the deal, he dropped the "family to feed" line on him. Now my dad is a saint, so he bit his tongue, but you could tell that on the inside he wanted to say something.
We had a decent middle class home, but with four kids to support, money was always tight. This was the first new car my parents were buying as long as I could remember. Therefore, it was very insulting to insinuate that my dad had to pay a couple thousand dollars more than he should just for "charity". Besides, given the fact that neither the salesman nor the dealer were hurting for money, it was a just a sleazy ploy on his part.
In the end, my dad and the salesman agreed on a fair deal. I forgot what the exact deal was, but it was a couple percent over invoice.
In my own car shopping, I have also experienced the "feed the family" line. I have never bought from any saleperson who used that ploy. I am thinking that the next time someone pulls that on me, I'll reach into my wallet, pull out a $20, put it on the desk, and say, "Here's some grocery money for tonight. Now let's get back to negotiations."
Personally, I feel that there are a lot more worthwhile charities than the car salesperson's benevolence fund. There are a lot of car salespeople who are making a good living at what they do. Many are probably making a better living than me.
If you feel that you aren't getting fair compensation for your time, don't blame the customer. Blame your employer! The dealership is the one who determines your compensation plan. The dealership is the one who signs your paycheck.
Besides, the folks who own your dealership probably have a lot more money than me or most of your cusomters, so they might be in a better financial position to give you a "handout" than me.
I do agree with you that there any many people who only consider price without regard for the level of service, and that reduces the incentive to provide great service. I must admit there was one time where I had a salesperson who really didn't deserve the sale, but whom I did end up buying from. In retrospect, I felt really bad about that decision. However, every other time I bought from someone who did provide good service.
Just tell him you also have a family to feed and they are not going hungry so his family can eat.
Or tell him that Marysfancy is running 20 to one in the second race and is a sure thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Most salespeople that I have dealt with have been honest and helpful. However, there have been those who are less than honest with me as well. I think it is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the whole bunch.
I have experienced the following:
1. Attempt to sell VIN etching for 1000% markup by pre-printing it on the invoice as if it is a required charge.
2. Attempt to give me an interest rate way above market rate and hiding it by quoting the "per month".
3. Attempt to sell a demo model at a new vehicle price.
4. Attempt to sell a car at a high price with the promise that there will be an "extra surprise" which will compensate for that price. I never found out what that extra surprise is.
5. Sold a car without floormats by not mentioning that they aren't included, and then asked to pay some ripoff price for them once I realized that they weren't present. I am surprised they didn't tell me that tires were extra, too! [I admit that this was partially my fault for assuming that all cars came with floormats. I have since learned that this isn't always the case.]
Fortunately, these examples have been the exception rather than the rule. In most cases, salespeople that I have encountered have been honest and forthright. However, due to the fact that there ARE dishonest ones out there, I think many consumers, including myself, always go into the car showroom expecting the worst.
Personally, I don't like going through life expecting the worst, since that is no way to live. On the other hand, I also don't like getting ripped off either, especially on one of the biggest purchases that I make. Therefore, I always feel the need to educate myself so that I know when I am being dealt with honestly, or when I am being swindled.
Why should some dealerships make more than the other, why should some pull some shady deals and tarnish the whole rep of salesmen and dealerships, making people FEAR buying a new car? This whole haggling over prices, better deals, back and forth, "please, I have a family to feed" deal, aggravation over who gets what and for how much, etc. really sucks and the whole car selling industry shouldn't be like that. THE CAR WILL GET SOLD, REGARDLESS, BUT DEALS MADE BETWEEN PEOPLE AND DEALERSHIPS SHOULDN'T HAVE BE DONE LIKE DIRTY DOGS. IF THERE WAS A FLAT RATE, A FLAT STANDARD WAY FOR EVERYONE TO BE WINNERS, I'D CERTAINLY ENTICE ME MORE TO BUY A NEW CAR.
Why the manufacturers can't and should not own the retail outlets was address at length in the "Stories from the Front Lines" forum some time ago. Actually, you will be surprised to lean that service managers and advisors, sales managers, general managers, used car managers, finance directors, managers and contractors, and parts managers are all commissioned. Even techs have to reach "book goals" to make 40 hours pay. The book usually pays less hours than a job takes.
For a more pleasant experience, most high end stores have a different atmosphere.
I don't know what book you are referring to. My experience (and most of people I know) is the car repair industry (including or especially dealers) have three customers charged one hour each (because book says so) then in the garage the highly qualified tech (the one that is on the bill for $100/hr) is taking care of all three cars at once for an hour, perhaps hour and half. Five minutes here, ten minutes there. The rest is done mininum wage kid.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The flip side of the coin is why should they make that much?
Why can't the car manufacturer "own" these dealerships and pay the salesman a flat rate, just like everyone else at the dealership?
Because I don't think the government will let them. Much like it is illegal for movie studios to own the theaters.
Plus sales is a performance based pay, the more you sell the more you make. Or more properly the more profit you make your employer the more you make.
Why can't it be that the MSRP for the car determined by the corporation be that when walking into the dealership?
Its called getting what the market will bear. FWIW few things get sold at MSRP.
Why should some dealerships make more than the other,
its called a free market system, more efficient companies providing a service that people will pay for make more. There is no guarantee that any company will make a profit.
IF THERE WAS A FLAT RATE, A FLAT STANDARD WAY FOR EVERYONE TO BE WINNERS,
But there are few things out there where it is that way. I had a friend who was looking for a GPS system for his car, one of those that is portable and can switched between cars. Well we looked (over the net) at Circuit City, Best Buy, Bass Pro Shop and Wally World. For places four different prices none at MSRP. We went to Best buy to look at it it real life and asked if they were flexible on the price. They said no, to which we replied that Wally World had it at a certain price (they were the least expensive). The salesperson went and got his manager who matched Wally Worlds Price.
Likewise me and "she who must be obeyed" are looking at a new HDTV. We figured out what we wanted and did some shopping. Three different stores, three different prices none at MSRP. I will bet next months mortgage that the two higher priced stores will match the lower priced store.
Why should car dealers be any different?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Vic
Our master tech who is by far the best technician I have ever seen can complete a certain job in 16-18 hours but the book time is 12 hours.
No one can do that job in 12 hours the book time on it is complete BS. Plenty of jobs are like that in the warranty books.
Why should't they? Why should a CPA charge so much?
Again with the "misled me" crap? So when I sell you a car, I have to present you as list of things the car DOESN'T have? Do I have to mention that insurance is not included? navigation? refrigerator? Get over yourself - if it's not on the sticker - it's not included.
I don't know if I'd classify this as being deceitful but I'll always remember years ago when we were shopping for a T-top Camaro.
This was years before anyone had ever heard of the word "Internet". I did a lot of research at the local library and came across some publications that listed the price of the car and every option and how much the dealer paid, along with what a buyer could expect to pay if they negotiated a bit - sort of what you can easily find nowadays online.
I printed up a proposal and took copies with me to several dealers. One young kid actually told me that they weren't in the business of giving cars away. He obviously hadn't been a salesman for very long because I wouldn't have bought from him even if he had agreed to my price after that.
I went to another Chevy dealer, presented him with the exact same proposal, and they met my offer. They tried to hornswaggle me on my trade-in but I bamboozeled a used car dealer down the road with a performance that would have made Hollywood proud and got my asking price for that as well.
The funny thing on the new car is that the dealer I bought it from didn't have it but they did a locator search and ended up getting it from the lot of the place where the kid insulted me. I should have driven it back there, honked the horn and waved but I never did.
On another note, my wife's 2003 PT Cruiser did not come with a rear sway bar, although it was listed right on the Monroney label (window sticker). Chrysler said it was no longer needed because the rear axle was stronger than previous years. Ah, the good old decontenting to save a few manufacturing dollars. It was the GT turbo, supposedly with a sport suspension. My view is that if the sway bar was listed it should have been included or they should have taken it off the sticker.
I had someone tell me that I should have inspected the car prior to delivery. Yeah, right. I'm going to grab a flashlight, crawl underneath, and see if all of the basic suspension parts are there on my new car. I thought they had inspectors who are supposed to verify such things before they leave the factory.
She still has the Cruiser and it still doesn't have a rear sway bar.
I remembered that last experience because of the previous message where someone said if it's not on the sticker - it's not included.
And occasionally not even then.
All I am saying is look at the issue from both sides.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Sorry if I went on my own rant. You just happened to hit one of my "hot button" issues. Sounds like you do "get it", and I'm sure your attitude will make you a success in the long run. Remember that Rome wasn't built in a day, but I'm sure if you are able to keep your perspective, you will eventually find success!
So are you saying that you can make up for a short deal by getting a volume bonus and a CSI bonus? How many more units would you have to move to bring your pay per unit up to say $300 just from the bonuses?
BTW, every person in retail has strokers and grinders. The only difference is that I have them do it to me on $1 deals. On any given day I will have 15 to 20 people who will pump me for advice and then go to Wal-Mart, accuse me of being either a liar or a cheat or just try to get something for nothing because they are cheap.
I feel you pain brother. Just try to think about the nice customers who treat you with respect and offer you fair compensation. The others will make you as bitter as they are.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Again with the "misled me" crap? So when I sell you a car, I have to present you as list of things the car DOESN'T have? Do I have to mention that insurance is not included? navigation? refrigerator? Get over yourself - if it's not on the sticker - it's not included
Micosilver, I think you might also be a candidate for decaf.
You are absolutely right, micosilver, and as I indicated I partially blame myself for not being educated on this point. Rather than complaining to the dealer, I bought some aftermarket mats, chalked it up to experience, and called it a day.
On the other hand, it does seem lame of a dealer to ask somebody to pay tens of thousands for a car and not include an item which all cars have. I can't recall ever being in a car without floormats, so it seemed reasonable to me at the time that they should be included as a standard feature.
After all, light bulbs, sun visors, ignition keys, and so forth aren't explicitly included on the window sticker. However, I have this expectation that all of these items will be present in the vehicle upon delivery. I guess I included floormats in my personal list of "included items", and obviously I was wrong to have done so.
However, I did learn that if I am ever buying a car from micosilver, I should make sure to include "ignition key (1)" on the bill of sale, otherwise I might have a hard time getting the car off the lot!
Same guy comes up to me 10 minutes later asking if I wanted to purchase mudflaps. I asked him if he was going to continue this all night. He laughed and said he was making the rounds to make sure everyone got mudflaps and floormats who needed them.
:sick:
On some of the other forums, salesmen were saying that they basically never respond to the "I'm contacting 12 dealers...gimme your best price on a Camcord GLE, black with tan leather" internet inquiries. Well, what's the point of having an internet department then? I have visited the websites of countless dealerships, low end and high end, in the Atlanta to Charlotte corridor. Many are very snazzy in appearance and I'm sure cost a good bit to build and maintain. Unfortunately, few are worth 2 cents as far as getting any real, valuable NEW inventory information. Ford and Southeast Toyota dealers come to mind as having some of the better info on new inventory. Curiously, high line dealerships seem to be the least likely to have any quality information about the new car inventory available. Oh, yes, you can make a service appointment online, (who the heck does that anyway), fill out a credit application for "pre-approval", (before I pick something out, test drive it, do the negotiation dance, etc. -- not hardly, :confuse: aren't we getting the cart before the horse?) and all sorts of other useless things--but the #1 thing I'm looking for (inventory) is often unavailable online. :confuse: :mad:
Tying this all together, How on earth is it possible to be a considerate shopper/buyer in a salesman's eyes when all roads lead back to the buyer having to come in and waste both parties time in order to get pricing and selection information??? Why waste $$$ and time on websites/internet departments if you are not going to play ball the "internet way?"
Ford tried that in two test markets several years ago and it failed miserably. Also as it has already been pointed out, everyone gets paid on commission in a car dealership. Hell our receptionist gets a bonus if we hit a certain # of units in a months time.
First of all, you really need to go to Paragraph School. Wehn you crowd everything into one huge blur, it makes it hard to read.
You are going to have to come to grips with the fact that the car business is what it is. Very few of your customers will beleive in what would normally be "fair play".
They will waste your time. They will do their best to grind the last dollar out of you in an attempt to get s number to shop. They WILL drive 100 miles to save 100 dollars. They don't care about your household expenses and that is how it should be.
Many of your customers live with the fear that someone else,somewhere just may have paid less than they did for the same car and that fear tortures them. I have never understood that but that is how they feel.
You won't revolutionize the business. It is what it is.
You sound like someone who want's to make this business work for you and you can! After 12 years, probably a third of my sales are to repeat and referral customers. Were it not for these people, I would have left in disgust years ago. This can be a very negative business and not everyone can deal with this.
Don't let the negatives at work and in these forums get to you.
any scion sales people here?
You are right about "strokes" up to a dergee. I do get some easy deals, usually people get put off by other dealers... there is nothing wrong with that, I lose customers too, sometimes it's a numbers problem, sometime people just don't click together... But when I say "stroke" - I mean someone that comes to test-drive Audi S4, VW R32, MazdaSpeed, etc, and when you call him a day later he says: yeah, I just bought a Prius...
As for the Internet way - having Internet access doesn't automatically entitle you to free meals. You have to do your research, you have to get personal with people. By sending a fax to 20 dealers you are saying: " I hate you all, I don't want to spend any of my time talking to you, and I don't want you to make ANY profit".
I will give you one example of such a customer, we received an email today:
She is saying that she wants a gray 4-door automatic Rabbit, she will buy it for the lowest price offered form one of 15 dealers she is contacting. Guess what - there are no gray 4-door Rabbits in the whole state!
Call up your salesperson and see what his take on it is
mine also has scotch guard on the top carpets to protect them.
Now I wonder why :sick:
the last time someone used that on me, I offered him $10/hr for mowing my lawn and cleaning out the garage.
Never mentioned that again.
There is only one winner. I do not agree on the concept of everybody is a winner. Heck, yah!
Do I see a red flag somewhere?
the day the salesperson(s) do what you just said, they will no longer be called a salesperson, but a marketing person.
http://www.learnthat.com/define/view.asp?id=71
MARKETING includes identifying unmet needs; producing products and services to meet those needs: and pricing, distributing, and promoting those products and services to produce a profit.
http://www.briannorris.com/whatismarketing.html
"Marketing is the ongoing process of moving people closer to making a decision to purchase, use, follow, refer, upload, download, obey, reject, conform, become complacent to someone else's products, services or values. Simply, if it doesn't facilitate a "sale" then it's not marketing."
Micosilver,
Maybe that is what some people use the internet for; I don't know. I guess for me, I see it as a way to cut the BS out. I am asking for his best price -- (at what price can you sell me this Passat, stock # T5433, in the next several days??) -- give me a quote where you will be happy that you sold it and I will be happy that I got a good value that reasonably matches the "market" price/discount that I have researched on umpteen forums. I don't want to steal it from you and cause you to go out of business because I will need to service it somewhere. Give me an average price of the last 10 Passat sales where the price given represents a cut-to-the chase figure you can live with. Throw out all of the sales where, let's say the car was sold at a loss to meet some volume bonus or whatever.
What is that elusive, magic, live and let live price for your dealership right here, right now? I'll gather your number and compare it to my target and the quotes from other VW dealers to see who comes closest to the blue ribbon. I'm not saying that I hate you, I just don't want to do the dog and pony show (from scratch) four or five times while we pre-qualify each other when we can get straight to the point via the internet. Like Tina Turner said, "What's love got to do with it???" Let's conduct some business, not pee on each others leg. There will be plenty of time for chit chat after the ink is dry.
She is saying that she wants a gray 4-door automatic Rabbit, she will buy it for the lowest price offered form one of 15 dealers she is contacting. Guess what - there are no gray 4-door Rabbits in the whole state!
See, I think she just made a colossal mistake here. If she had checked the inventory in her area, (assuming the various dealers post it; going back to my original rant) she would know her car did not exist or was extremely rare. If she had known that her color choice was rare, she should have asked for quotes on 4dr Rabbits equipped with x,y, and z options. After I had found a dealer that offered a good price and looked eager to sell me a car, I would THEN ask them to locate me a grey one with black leather or whatever. Looks like to me she just blew any negotiation power she had by showing her cards too soon. Now if any dealer on her email chain gets their hands on a grey Rabbit, she had better be prepared to drive to where ever and pay whatever is asked of her. It doesn't seem likely that they will dealer transfer it to her preferred dealer with the lowball internet price if they know they have an over-eager buyer for it.
And, what’s wrong with that? :P But, seriously, that is how you look at it, which is not necessarily true from the buyer’s point of view.
When a buyer sends out 20 emails, he is just trying to buy the car at market value the quickest way possible. The lowest quote that the buyer gets represents the market value of the car, because no dealer is stupid enough to sell a car below market. Anything above that price is gravy for the store and the salesman. This is no different than shopping online for a TV by going to different websites and looking up prices. The reason you want the buyer in front of you is so that you could use your training to squeeze that gravy out him, the gravy that is not supported by the market and shouldn’t be paid by the buyer.