GM News, New Models and Market Share

nvbanker

I believe you could get an "Electra 380" in 1995 or 1996, which was the new downsized model, like the Park Avenue, but with of course, the 3800 engine in it, renamed and slightly downmarket from the Park.

cooterbfd

That's 1985 and 1986. Same body style as lemko's

lilengineerboy

To restart sales, Mini turns to incentives

April 20, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

With sales plunging for the first time, Mini USA has violated its no-incentive rule for the past few months with a low-interest financing offer that the brand continues to sweeten.

BMW AG's premium small-car brand lowered its incentive to 1.9 percent for 36 months through this month. And starting in April, the company offered the same rate to customers whose FICO credit scores border on subprime.

.....In February, Mini turned to incentives out of frustration.

.....Mini's sales rose 28.6 percent to 54,077 units in 2008. But sales this year have fallen every month and declined 16.2 percent to 8,513 in the first quarter.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20090420/ANA06/304209975/1078
(registration link)

dave8697

What is there to fear about GM going bankrupt?
Backlit by the economy falling apart.
One less place for anybody to get a job.
We'd still be able to keep the GM's we have, running.
When was the last time the part you needed was only sold at the dealership?
When was the last time you had to get your car fixed and only the dealer had the tools or parts?
I can't even remember it was so long ago.
What about buying a car like the Camaro? Will the opportunity still exist?
If not, how often would you find someone glad it's gone?
If you were the gov and selling GM at auction. What would you have to ensure?
Gov: Some venture capitalists offers you next to nothing to take it off your hands. What do you care if they buy only Chevy and Caddilac? What if they are bean counters and want to produce only the 3 highest volume cars at chevy? Who at the 'design the car' level are they going to change on the day when paychecks change from coming from the gov to coming from the new owners? Hardly anybody. If they hired people, some of the laid off GM workers would be the best candidates for new positions. They know how to do everything. Would the Camaro team be let go if it wasn't top 3 in volume? Would the new owners be able to axe the UAW entirely? Become 'transport-like' right down to the point where we pay Honda and Toyota royalties to set up schools to train the new wave of non-union GM assemblers?

tlong

http://www.wallstats.com/blog/the-fall-of-gm-a-visual-guide/

nippononly

That's a good one. It's especially apt that the bailout is already buckling in the jaws of the vise.

circlew

Very simple and to the point. Too big not to fail.

Regards,
OW

tlong

Very simple and to the point. Too big not to fail.

GM to shut most plants up to 9 weeks:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090422/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gm_factories_8

circlew

Yes, I heard it on the 6:00 PM news tonight. My thinking is some plants will never open again.

Let's see what the sales data shows in 2 weeks. By then, we should know Chrysler's future.

Regards,
OW

bpizzuti

2 weeks? They have until next Friday. Period. Supposedly.

nippononly

Don't forget, GM has an extra month. The deadline is May 1 for Chrysler, June 1 for GM.

imidazol97

This will be a happy day for some people indeed.

link title

stever

Not Martha - she's a Detroit city councilwoman.

dtownfb

I hope it's not a happy day for anyone since many people will lose their jobs. I just wish GM had dealt with this issue sooner instead of dragging their feet.

aldw

One thing that always pissed me off about GM's organization is how the brands never seem to operate in concert like other companies do. VW's brands don't clash over resources or market share the way GM brand's do, and neither does Toyota. Even worse is when GM kills brands many consumers go to non-GM brands instead, even when other GM brands have the same product.

Why is there such a disconnect by both consumers and brand managers towards GM brands if the brands are all supposed to function together as a single company?

Because GM brands were originally separate companies before being controlled by GM, there is a persistent mental divide between brands within GM by both the managers and consumers. Also, unlike Toyota and VW, GM the holding company is not a vehicle product brand in itself, which despite constant reorganizations never really bridged the perceptual divide between brands. In addition, the legacy of distinct brands also influenced consumer perception (This is also why I consider many consumers to be badge-oriented even if the product is essentially the same across different brands).

Ultimately it will take a combination of brand elimination and expansion of remaining brands (Chevrolet and Cadillac) for a new GM to grow and prosper.

circlew

Well, I meant for the industry. Their market share will no doubt be lower.

Regards,
OW

circlew

The happy day is when the US builds the best in the world once again! :sick:

Regards,
OW

bvdj84

GM is literally going down and will hit hard. It is certainly not over yet, it will get much worse before it will get any better. That makes me wonder about the dealers. They have to be struggling a bit with sales. Obviously, the numbers reflect that. I have noticed the overflow lots filled to the brim. Its no wonder they wouldn't want my car as a trade in. They can't even sell a new one. I do think other brands are doing much better. They offer a more sound, solid package. Even with all the payment protection that is offered on GM models, I believe most consumers are feeling more comfortable going with GM's competition. I certainly would.

I do think once they shut down most plants here in the US, some will not re-open. It is almost like a double hit for GM. They shut down plants to see it as a way to help the company, they lay off workers, it will send the company further back, as it will effect the economy towards the company. So shutting down will hurt the company bad at first, but perhaps seeing the light years later down the road. So their choice just turns around and bites them again. At this point any choice is going to be a big issue. It will be a long time before they can truly pull ahead.

I do agree, getting rid of brands that are not selling and making more efficient choices will help. Placing top priority in vehicle efficiency, practicality, and of course quality being the name of the game. Those are all of things that seem to not be something they take pride in.

I feel so bad about all the people who are losing their jobs over this. They are being punished for their choices. Its too late now GM, you gotta suck it up, swallow your pride and yes do the right thing starting today! Don't lie to us! It will bite you in the end.

bvdj84

Pontiac is Dead

andre1969

Once upon a time, the only orphan I owned was a DeSoto. Then Plymouth and Olds got added to that list. Looks like I'm gonna have to add Pontiac, now.

It's really no surprise, though...we all knew it was coming. Heck, Pontiac was actually close to getting the axe back in the early 1980's, as it started to lose its identity and posted huge sales losses. They bounced back in a major way for 1984, but I guess nothing is forever.

lemko

Sad, but Pontiac has been merely a cosmetically different version of a Chevrolet for too long. Remember those beautiful mid-60s Pontiac Executives, Bonnevilles, and Grand Prixes which were CLEARLY a step up from a Chevy? I rented a Grand Am a few years back and the interior was abominable. It was nothing like the beautiful wood-grained dash of a 1965 Pontiac Grand Prix with it's chromed grab bar on the right hand side of the dash and ornate console with tach. The Grand Am featured nothing but acres of dismal gray plastic. The only thing that stood out was the red backlighting. I was kind of hoping the G8 would herald Pontiac's rebirth, but alas, it was a false dawn!

lilengineerboy

One thing that always pissed me off about GM's organization is how the brands never seem to operate in concert like other companies do. VW's brands don't clash over resources or market share the way GM brand's do,

What?

1 word: PHAETON

It almost made VW go belly up because they wanted to make a car better than the Audi A8. The Passat shared platform and mechanicals with the A4 and A6. The A3 is a GTI station wagon...

Ultimately it will take a combination of brand elimination and expansion of remaining brands (Chevrolet and Cadillac) for a new GM to grow and prosper.

I agree with this...if there is such a positive legacy attached to some of the makes, retain the names as trim levels, since that is kind of what they are anyway. Chevy can have the Super Sport, and Cadillac or Buick can have a "Pontaic Edition" with more aggressive suspension tuning and red dials in stead of 60s blue-green.

I think another Detroit area brand should think about a similar strategy.

lilengineerboy

I was kind of hoping the G8 would herald Pontiac's rebirth, but alas, it was a false dawn!

Its a great car, just expensive to import and what not. It does feel like a legitimate sport sedan, its just very expensive. The GTO was a learning experience in retro for GM where people don't always remember things the way they were. The original GTO was a bland 2 dr coupe with a huge motor, and when they did that again, even going so far as to include a manual transmission, people said the styling was too mild.

I also REALLY like the CTS. It just pushes the right buttons for me. It needs to stay priced a tier below the 3 series, but I would definitely rather have the CTS than any Lexus or Acura that comes to mind in that range.

lemko

whatever became of the weird Passat W-8?

xrunner2

I rented a Grand Am a few years back and the interior was abominable. It was nothing like the beautiful wood-grained dash of a 1965 Pontiac Grand Prix with it's chromed grab bar on the right hand side of the dash and ornate console with tach.

Had that 65 Prix (dark blue) long ago and would agree about the luxury of it compared to say a Chevrolet. Recall the tach, but not the chromed grab bar. Need to check out at some car show this summer.

It is too bad about GM having to shed Pontiac. If there had been any, any car guys at GM like Lutz back in 70's, 80's that might have had vision, maybe Pontiac would have truly evolved into a BMW 3 or Infiniti G competitor through those years and be strong today.

lemko

Well, a 1965 Grand Prix was hardly a sport coupe, but a big brawny cruiser which the G8 reminded me of. The G8 was the first Pontiac I would've seriously considered since a late 1970s Bonneville.

lemko

Pontiac was doomed when it lost John DeLorean. I'd say 1967 was the last year of the truly beautiful Pontiacs. It lost something when it strayed from the stacked headlamp look of 1963-67.

Pontiac really started to stray when the 1968 Grand Prix came out. It was a big fat turkey! The 1969-70 Grand Prix was definately a step back in the right direction, but even it became pimpy and overwrought as the 1970s moved on.

The big 1970 Pontiacs were quite homely compared to their predecessors. I thought the high placement of the headlamps on the 1971-72 big Pontiacs was kind of weird. It reminded me of were headlamps were placed on cars from 1958 and prior. IMO the 1973-74 styling of the big Pontiacs was an improvement despite the big bumpers.

andre1969

Had that 65 Prix (dark blue) long ago and would agree about the luxury of it compared to say a Chevrolet. Recall the tach, but not the chromed grab bar. Need to check out at some car show this summer.

My '76 Grand LeMans has that grab bar, but it's not chromed. And better not grab it too hard, or it'll probably tear off! At least the old ones had some strength to them, and weren't just for show.

I've seen 60's Bonnevilles with that grab bar too, and probably the Catalina 2+2. It might have been an extra-cost option.

xrunner2

1 word: PHAETON

It almost made VW go belly up because they wanted to make a car better than the Audi A8. The Passat shared platform and mechanicals with the A4 and A6. The A3 is a GTI station wagon...

If I recall correctly, a top mgmt guy, either CEO, COO, or similar was fired because of Phaeton disaster. Presumably, GM top mgmt (CEO) approves when new models such as Aztek, Cimmaron, Allante, Reatta, Vega, retro GTO, SSR pickup retro, etc are put into production. Never heard of top management at GM being fired for all of their disasters. Too bad Donald Trump was not on GM Board over last 3 decades. :P GM would likely be ok.

riser

I bought a brand new 2000 Yukon XL. Two days after I bought it, the power windows failed to open. They said they already knew of the problem but didn't fix it until someone brought it in. The entire front end had to be replaced -ball joints, pitman arms, tie rids, steering column - in the first year, after 4 sets of tires. At 97k miles, the transmission went out. I've since replaced ball joints 4 times! and just replaced wheel bearings ($2,500) and rear axles. Warranty issues cost GM more than they made. And I'm still paying for ridiculous maintenance items all the time. It's no wonder they are failing. I'm sorry for all the people losing their jobs, but it shows how out of touch the comapny mgmnt has been for years. Kinda like our govt.............

ingvar

Very sad news. G8 was a nice start. In couple years it could be a competitor to Infiniti and be close to BMW.

lemko

lilengineerboy

GM top mgmt (CEO) approves when new models such as Aztek, Cimmaron, Allante, Reatta, Vega, retro GTO, SSR pickup retro, etc are put into production.

Toyota Echo (Car & Driver's headline: Something New From Toyota - A mistake).
Toyota Previa
Original Honda Insight.
Orignial Honda Oddessy
Ford Edsel

Its called learning.
The Vega had an aluminum block and OHC, now the standard in the industry (the sport model also had 16 valves and fuel injection - talk about innovation in '76), the Aztec was an experiment with a white space vehicle, Toyota canned the "FJ Cruiser" already also.

I am still wondering what was so bad about the Allante and the Reatta; they are apparently becoming borderline collectible vehicles at this point.

The idea of platform sharing is that the cost to do things like the GTO and SSR is minimized. New "top-hats" and revising the suspension tuning is much cheaper than developing a platform from scratch, especially when you share that platform globally - reference to the Camry/Venza/ES350/MDX/Highlander.

Ford is doing well with the Mustang as a basic platform, and then collaborating with Shelby or SVT or Saleen. You have to have the basic platform to develop from though.

Oh, and you got me on the Cimmiron. What a POS.

stever

I'm not sure I'm following the point of your thread with Xrunner2.

Friends with an Echo like theirs (and they like the mpg). Not as attractive a package as the old Tercels were though. So a fail.

The Previa is a classic. Lousy crash test results and the SAD shaft causes problems now and then, but I still see them on the road, and the owners that I've talked to love them. If I could have afforded one back in the day when I wound up with a Voyager, I may still be driving it.

The original Odyssey was an interesting package in its day too. That was the first "modern" implementation of the Magic Seat, at least the first that got a lot of attention. It was a narrow wagon but had a reputation for reliability.

I can't think of much positive to say about the Insight or Edsel, other than the Edsel was probably a bit ahead of its time.

I think the Vega only missed because it wasn't reliable enough. My family wound up with a Falcon. If the Vega had run like a VW Bug, it probably would have sold near as many.

lilengineerboy

I'm not sure I'm following the point of your thread with Xrunner2.

My point was that it takes a couple of tries for innovation to work sometimes, and that shouldn't reflect too poorly on a CEO. What should reflect is when they fail to innovate at all.

The Previa is a classic. Lousy crash test results and the SAD shaft causes problems now and then, but I still see them on the road, and the owners that I've talked to love them. If I could have afforded one back in the day when I wound up with a Voyager, I may still be driving it.

Interior ergonomics were terrible (which was also true of the 1st gen Sienna), interior packaging was pretty poor. I think if someone came from a microbus or Vanagon, they might find it interesting but it really didn't have too much going for it. And it was underpowered without getting particularly stealer F/E.

The original Odyssey was an interesting package in its day too. That was the first "modern" implementation of the Magic Seat, at least the first that got a lot of attention. It was a narrow wagon but had a reputation for reliability.

The Odyssey didn't have sliding doors, it had "oversized conventional doors" for the back seats. Its what normal people call a "station wagon," just like the Mazda MPV that had already been out for years. Try parking next to another car with those "oversized conventional doors" and see how easy it is to get in and out, or a infant seat in and out.

I think the Vega only missed because it wasn't reliable enough.
I agree, and it had some durability issues with the tin-worm but that seems to be the case for most vehicles of the time.

dave8697

I parked for lunch where I had to walk towards a new red G8 GT. Fantastic looking car with huge chrome rims and quad chrome wrapped exhaust. Tires were shined up. The performance on par with a 5 series. The new Silverado QC 5.3 beats the Dodge Hemi 5.7 in 45-65 accel. Two of my neighbors have 4-8 yr old Grand Prix's and they are not complaining. They spend their money on beautiful new premium homes and their kids.

stever

I did have a '69 Bus for a short while. :shades: The Odyssey wagon would have been perfect for sliders.

I wonder what the excitement/disappointment ratio is of people seeing a concept car at the auto show and then test driving the car that finally makes it to the showroom floor? Reality (not to mention bean counters) has a way of zapping innovation.

stever

I have way more contacts in TN than MI but I'm still sort of enjoying the "nyah nyah" quality of GM's actions with regard to the Saturn factory and the grief that TN Senator Corker has dished out to Detroit.

"However, GM will close the Spring Hill, Tenn., plant that makes the Chevrolet Traverse for a total of five weeks despite the crossover, a cousin to the other three, being a good seller and in low supply. Traverse has a supply well below the industry average, according to Edmunds.com's calculations. Some have speculated that Traverse production could be moved to Michigan and the Spring Hill facility, once a Saturn-only plant, could be permanently shuttered. Tennessee Sen. Bob Corker, an outspoken critic of U.S. automakers, has been lobbying to keep the plant open and has been ironically accusing GM of playing politics with the plant. Corker was accused of playing politics during last fall's Congressional hearings by favoring Nissan and now Volkswagen in his state over U.S. automakers."

GM Names 13 Plants For Shutdowns; Cuts 190,000 Vehicles From Production Schedule (AutoObserver)

canadiantoyota

You're right about the Previa. I bought a 1993 and since I am a salesman, I added the 6 year UNLIMITED mileage warranty. This warranty wa the reason that many people I knew in sales were driving Toyota's It truly was 6 years, no mileage limit and transferable. I drove my Previa for 4 years (no problems) and sold it with 120,000 miles on it. The next owner loved it also. It is still on the road. Strange enough, I just spotted two Previas yesterday.

This was the big reason that I started driving Toyota vehicles. They were and still are bulletproof in my eyes. My Tacoma (2002) was just sold with 240,000 miles on it and I got $10,000 for it. Try that with a GM.

My worst cars and the reason I looked at Toyota was because of the GM mistakes I drove (1989 Cavalier, 1989 Caprice, 1990 Corsica, 1991 Olds, etc.).

Toyota put out a warranty and stood behind the vehicle. While I purchased the warranty, I NEVER had reason to use it. It also made selling the vehicle easier because the next owner had the balance to work with.

Thanks for the memory of that Previa.

imidazol97

I just wrote honorable Corker's office an email that I had written GM that GM should move Traverse production to Michigan since Spring Hill is in Corker's state and unfriendly to US auto companies. Since I can't vote there, I reminded him friends live in Smyrna 3 miles from the Nissan plant and I'd strongly encourage them to vote against him.

lilengineerboy

I drove my Previa for 4 years (no problems) and sold it with 120,000 miles on it. The next owner loved it also. It is still on the road

You put on a lot of miles. My folks '89 Grand Caravan (at 2/3rds the cost of the Previa) got traded in with 150k and was spotted on the road last summer. Better packaging, more space, and more power.

This was the big reason that I started driving Toyota vehicles.

That, and as you mentioned, you sold them for a living?

My Tacoma (2002) was just sold with 240,000 miles on it and I got $10,000 for it.

I think that also goes back to being a car salesman and the "one born every minute" montra.

stever

I liked my '89 Voyager, but I had gone through 3 head gaskets by 90,000 miles over ten years. Luckily there was a 7/70 drivetrain warranty at the time and I got them all fixed for around $100 after all was said and done.

It sure looks like Pontiac will be shuttered next Monday.

"But Pontiac's main problem has been an outgrowth from the root GM problem: too many badge-engineered products that over the years drifted erratically from the brand's successful performance-car heritage. Mainstream sedans such as the current G6 and the Vibe hatchback have no real reason for wearing Pontiac garb, much less crossover vehicles (Torrent) economy cars (the stillborn G3) and now-discontinued minivans."

Edmunds: GM to Hit the Kill Switch on Pontiac (AutoObserver)

dieselone

Two of my neighbors have 4-8 yr old Grand Prix's and they are not complaining.

Man, I'd say 4-8 years spent with a Grand Prix would be depressing. Just a horrible car in terms of driving dymanics and comfort. I can't wait for my wife to get rid of her 07 Grand Prix, the car is a joke in terms of fit and finish, quality of materials, comfort, room etc. I only drive it to be a nice husband and fill her tank up once in a while. Yes, it's 100% reliable, but I don't care if GM slapped a million mile warranty on that POS, I still wouldn't want it.

cooterbfd

".....I liked my '89 Voyager, but I had gone through 3 head gaskets by 90,000 miles over ten years. Luckily there was a 7/70 drivetrain warranty at the time and I got them all fixed for around $100 after all was said and done."

Did it have the Chrysler four, or the Mitsubishi V-6???

nippononly

Well, that's one down that needed to go.

Next for the announcement of Buick's sale to GM's Chinese partners in Beijing. With the possible additional announcement of the addition of Lucerne to Cadillac's lineup.

Then they will be about halfway to where they need to be, assuming Hummer, Saab, and Saturn have been permanently deleted.

circlew

Do you REALLY need GMC and Buick?? That is the ultimate decision for GM.

There is no reason to keep the nameplates separate that makes sense and is cost effective. Blending them into Chevy and Cadillac makes those divisions even stronger. Want a "Professional Grade" Tahoe, get the 3/4 ton Yukon built by Chevrolet.

Want the upscale Traverse? Get the Chevrolet Acadia.

Want the La Crosse? It's now a Chevy. Lucerne is a Cadillac as is the Enclave.

Time to make the REALLY tough decisions that will lead to a strong new foundation. Pontiac's demise was a matter of course. Time is gone to wait for Buick and GMC to decompose into infinity and turn a deaf ear to reality while Rome burns. Buick is developing severe osteoperosis and it's time to make the most dramatic changes that will be remembered as key to future growth in the new GM.

2 Divisions under God, with Liberty and Justice for the taxpayers!

Now the rubber must hit the road! Chevy and Cadillac should stand alone to form a new identity for GM. Value and exclusivity.

Regards,
OW

whoosierdaddy

I bought a new 04 Grand Prix GT, black with chrome package. Loved the look (at the time; now it looks dated), the smooth ride, and good-enough performance. Selling industrial equipment to tier-2 and tier-3 suppliers to the domestic auto industry in the Midwest, I needed a domestic-brand, domestic-made car. I averaged 25-26 mpg overall and had no unexpected maintenance issues in 3 years and over 100K miles. All-in-all I was very happy with that car. Different drivers have different requirements, expectations, and budgets; it isn't cool to "sneer" at any demographic, their money spends like anybody else's. I would hate to see the auto industry become so consolidated that our choices are limited.

cooterbfd

Well, The question is will people pay $30-35K for a Chevy car (Lacrosse)? They STILL don't for a Hyundai, inspite of it's rave reviews. The Lucerne sold 40% more ytd. For that to work, ALL of Buick would have to be integrated into Cadillac. Chevy already has a complete lineup of cars and trucks.

What may work, as you already have the 3 separate dealership groups (Chevy, B"P"G, and Caddy) is trying to get back to the basics, by pricing and equipping the cars accordingly. Consider this:

Save the Camaro and Corvette, ALL of Chevy's cars sell for under $30K. I'll bet 95% sell for under $25K. So, there is your price point for Chevy.

Seeing as how we hear a death knell for Pontiac, we'll ignore them. Buick's price point is in the $25-42k ZONE. Let the "new" B-G group sell the LaCrosse as the base car, and redesign the G8 as the new Lucerne. Keep the Enclave there, but get rid of the Acadia name. Want an upscale Traverse? Buy an Enclave!!! Keep the new Terrain as GMC's CUV. Solstice as a Buick??? Why not??? Get younger buyers in the showroom. They may actually like what they see from Buick.

Caddy gets the CTS, a G8 based STS, and stretch the platform for the DTS. Thereby justifying building the Lucerne, STS, and DTS in NA. Caddy gets no Lambda, as it has the SRX and Escalade variants.

This way, each dealership group has a full, yet not completely overlapping compliment of cars and trucks, yet each also has something different (Chevy Camaro, Buick "Solstice", and the Caddy CTS

circlew

That would've been great around 2004. I believe you need to have 2 price groups...over/under $35K base The Traverse rises well above $30K optioned out. The Acadia would be an up-class Chevy like the Impala used to be.

G8 is a Chevy and the STS now has a real chassis to share with it.

At the end of the day, you cut to the bone and restructure based on the nameplates that make you money. The Buick Division is low volume. Caddy eats the 2 larger nameplates, Chevy the smaller.

GMC is higher sales but like I said, this is survival mode. Chevy Truck becomes the Gold Standard.

Cutting the 2 divisions now allows target markets for the remaining 2 divisions to consolidate costs and drive sales of profitable nameplates, not resource-sapping clones.

Just MHO.

Regards,
OW

lilengineerboy

Solstice as a Buick??? Why not??? Get younger buyers in the showroom. They may actually like what they see from Buick.

The Saturn Sky and the Pontiac Solstace can both find new homes. One is a Chevy for the younger folks (Miata fighter) and one is for those who want to relive their youth in a more relaxed environment (Miata retractable hard top, MBZ SLK, etc).