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Toyota has 3 brands and still doesn't cover the full market. Honda has 2 brands and still lacks a formal, V8, rwd sedan. Their crossovers are fine but SUVs and pick-ups are still behind the domestics.
And I disagree about Lexus and Audi being entry level luxury. IMHO even Cadillac is not at the levels of Lexus and Audi. It is laughable to think of Buick as being comparable to those two makes. Perhaps someday.
Right, because a rebadged glorified Camry is high luxury. If you are talking about an LS460, fine, but a glorified Accord with less power and rear seat room (TSX) don't scream luxury to me.
-Rocky
Toyotas 3 brands are sold in only two sets of dealerships.
Who cares if they cover the full market? Toyota is successful and GM lost billions. Perhaps GM should NOT cover the full market and focus on quality and rebuilding confidence, once they are out of BK.
Who cares about formal V8 rwd sedans? A small niche. They should instead have a quality small car; a quality small upscale sedan; a higher quality sports car than the Corvette; an affordable hybrid that actually gets better mileage than the non-hybrid version.
a rebadged glorified Camry is high luxury. If you are talking about an LS460, fine, but a glorified Accord with less power and rear seat room (TSX) don't scream luxury to me.
Nobody said that. I said that comparatively, Lexus is much higher luxury than Buick and even Cadillac. Few people except Lemko would equate Buick anywhere near Lexus in luxury. And Audi is light years ahead of even Cadillac, which is why it is ridiculous to think that Buick is in the same league. What does Buick have that is anything like
- LS460?
- GS series?
- IS series?
- A4?
- A5?
- A6?
- A8?
- not to mention Audi's S and RS series cars
And Toyota is now starting to have issues..they started having them slightly before the recession hit. Perhaps 3 brands is just too much, that might be holding back Ford too.
Not EVER going to happen. Trying to hold on to the sales by keeping a full division of associated costs just dilutes the business entity. There is no reason that Buick's 3 models can not be rolled into the other 2 brands.
The GMC/Chevy story is exactly the same.
Regards,
OW
TORRANCE, California — Toyota on Monday said it is recalling 121,000 2008 Highlander and Highlander Hybrid vehicles in the U.S. because an optional stainless-steel exhaust tip may fall off.
"Due to improper heat treatment, the original clamp used to secure the stainless-steel exhaust tip to the exhaust pipe may develop microscopic cracks," said Toyota Motor Sales USA in a statement. "If this occurs, the crack may expand, causing the clamp to break, and in the worst case, the exhaust tip may fall off."
The Japanese automaker said there have been 10 reports of incidences of this condition in the U.S. It estimated that there are about 39,100 accessory kits that may be affected. "Because this accessory is installed at the Toyota vehicle processing centers and dealers, and is available over the counter, all of approximately 121,000 vehicle owners will be notified," Toyota said.
The recall is expected to begin in early May. Owners can contact Toyota at (800) 331-4331.
Regards,
OW
Like Pontiac, Buick and GMC, right, since they are all at the same dealer?
I think we were talking about Cadillac, not Buick. Drive a CTS and then drive an IS or G35/7.
- LS460?
- GS series
Those aren't near luxury. The GS is more than a 5-series and the LS is bumpin 6 figures.
Its under the Acura brand, listed by a previous poster as "near-luxury." The TL is still on the glorified Accord level to me, just minus the cramped rear quarters of the TSX.
I would love it. Instead of European delivery I'd like to buy Cadillac version of 135i for the same money without trip to Europe
-Rocky
Trucks could be handled by Chevrolet exclusively, but apparently there are lot of sales through GMC brand and loyal buyers who want the "professional" brand GMC over Chevrolet.
Buick still needed apparently for aging baby boomers who are nearing retirement and need transport for next 20-30 years. Also, GM does not want to offend growing Chinese market, by killing Buick, that will soon surpass US in overall country number of vehicle sales. If not for Chinese consideration, the aging baby boomers would happily choose a Cadillac entry level lux over a Buick nameplate "if" that entry level were truly equal or better than Mercedes C, Infiniti, Acura, Lexus or Audi offerings.
We're not connecting. I originally responded to a post about what should each of the new GM brands represent. One of the lines in that post was:
"Buick - entry level luxury (Audi, Lexus) "
I was responding that it was silly to compare Buick as "entry level luxury" to those two much more luxurious makes. So we ARE talking about Buick, not Cadillac. Perhaps now you agree with me. :P
Not all of them. And they started separately; GM is consolidating. Toyota formed Scion but never separated into Scion dealerships. So Toyota doing well with two sets of dealers is correct.
I'll argue that they are not that close. I have an LS, an associate who works for me has an RL. While I like the RL, and it's probably better looking than the LS, it's noiser, smaller, less powerful (with no V-8) and infinitely more difficult to operate with BMW like switchgear and controls inside. It's near-luxury, but not even in the league with the big boys.....
Honda is very good at what they do, but they don't do everything. Trucks, luxury, are just a little bit beyond their taste.
Have you been inside a TSX lately? (note I haven't seen the 2009 restyled versions interior yet). I've owned and loved a 2003 Accord Coupe, and its interior quality was above reproach, but the TSX is a clear step up, as is an A3 to the GTI.
Now is Buick even on VW's level of luxury? Not sure. But I know Buick is not on par with Audi. VW is in the same ball park. Audi isn't even playing the same sport as Buick. LIGHT YEARS apart is right.
Which is why the original post, calling Buick "entry-level luxury" and comparing them to Audi and Lexus, was so silly.
Buick I wouldn't quite call even entry-level luxury, as there are VWs and even Hyundai's that are as nice. Lexus and Audi are complete luxury. Audi's interiors are the most luxurious of any mass-produced make. Lexus has more quiet and refinement than anybody (not my taste, but indisputable).
Actually, with a smaller, more cramped interior, and a harsher ride, I would say that is the opposite of luxury, I would consider that sport.
Lots of similar parts and pieces, but turned up a notch or two in refinement, quality, touch, feel, look, and fit and finish.
From comparing the parts at the online Honda/Acura parts dealers, many of the components have identical part numbers like switches and the like. I think the leather affects perception as opposed to reality.
I've owned and loved a 2003 Accord Coupe, and its interior quality was above reproach, but the TSX is a clear step up, as is an A3 to the GTI.
So far, my '07 Accord is pretty bland with dash panels fading at different rates so I know have a 3 color dash. The Honda manual transmission is great, but I would definitely consider that is main highlight. The radio display is hard to read in sunlight, the dash reflects into the windshield, the H in the middle of the wheel reflects the light of every SUV that passes at night...and the Honda squeeks and rattles when the seasons change are the car's way of letting me know spring is coming.
My point is the Audi (especially the A3 and A4) are focused much more on sport than luxury. The TSX would fit that description as well. Vehicles like the Lexus ES350 is more along the lines of "near luxury." I think the Buick is comparable to the ES in the way it totally isolates the driver from anything to do with driving.
Then what exactly would you consider luxury?
It's April 30, anyone hear anything about Chrysler? :shades:
Scary cars, light weight steering, weak breaks & etc
Negotiations failed, bankruptcy is now a certainty, the government still hopes to manage it so that the way is cleared for Fiat to take over later on. Of course, Fiat is trying to get itself a 50% stake in Opel, and if it does that I bet its interest in Chrysler will have to be put on hold at the very least.
Is this the specter GM will face in 31 short days? Government-managed bankruptcy? I wouldn't rule it out.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
President Obama Set To Discuss Chrysler; Bankruptcy Path To Fiat Deal (AutoObserver)
Its a reach to put the blame past gas prices and the recession with it's tight credit and 10% unemployment.
There will undoubtedly be a silly list for GM soon. It will contain the Vega, cavalier, sunbird, trans am, malibu, impala, skyhawk, cimmaron, and intrigue.
With a trillion a year of defecit spending during this recession and the next 10 years after it, no controls on a swine flu outbreak at the Mexican border, and 10% national unemployment, no mention will be made of high gas prices, the economy, or Foreign car buyers in the 'blame list'.
One thing I noticed. 280,000 people depend on Chrysler for employment. About 20,000 are union. (1/14th). The UAW make 1/10th too much. So cutting costs by 1/140th would save the day? Maybe we would rather pay the UAW 1/3 of their income to be unemployed. That 1/3 now gov. paid will effect your local school budget so your kids education will suffer. Now isn't that the best plan? We get back at the overpaid UAW, save 1/140th on the price of a car, and the local school goes to pot.
As far as GM being judged by the media, don't you think that has already happened? I can't imagine there is much new they will be able to say on May 31 if GM is facing the BK court.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Why not blame the foreign car makers instead? After all, it's their fault that they figured out how to make cars at a profit, and sell them at a profit to people who seem to want to buy them over American cars.
Or is it your intention to blame free market principles, where people choose what they have determined to be the best product for their needs?
All well said. GM at one time had 70% of the USA market Share. Today they will be lucky to have 18% market share. That means 52% of US vehicle buyers switched from GM to some other brand. I don't think it is because they loved their GM vehicle. Most are probably like myself that held a long loyalty to the GM brand until they just got so bad we had to switch. I won't be back to GM unless they come up with a lot better vehicles than they are pushing today.
-Rocky
Last time when I checked, GM had no 2 door RWD coupe with i6 turbo charged engine, which could be easily driven on the road to Wistler.
The Ram is the only vehicle from Chrysler I'd buy. I'd love to have a Cummins powered 3/4 ton truck. Other than that, I wouldn't miss Chrysler.
You are so right. Those pesky "customers"! They just don't know that they should be buying inferior products rather than what they want. How dare they.
It's certainly not the fault of the US makes that their products are inferior. It is outside forces - currency manipulation, foreign competitors, NAFTA, and tarot-card readers.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I'm 100% satisfied with my 07 Expedition. As much as I have complained about domestic cars I like several Ford products. So I could see myself buying a 2010 Mustang, Fusion, Taurus, or F-series (after a test drive of course). Honestly, I can't stand GM based on my current and past experiences. I've test drove the Saturn Aura XR 3.6 and GMT-900 SUVs, neither overly impressed me, and the Yukon Denali severely disappointed me with it's numb steering, floaty suspension, and poor build quality. I've yet to drive a GM product that makes me say "Wow" in a good way. I have zero confidence in GM from the CEO down to the custodian.
I will say I really like the CTS, but I've never driven one, so it might be the one GM product could get me to pull out my check book.
Those cars were built in Canada in large part to reduce taxes paid in British Empire export markets, the McKenna Duties IIRC.
-Rocky
Yup, I'd buy a Ford product in a heartbeat. :shades:
The two '08 Denali's I drove and one 07 3/4 ton Yukon XL had build quality issues, the quality of materials were fine, but door seals fell out of one, the other Denali had interior throughout the cabin, and the 07 Yukon XL had body cladding that was misaligned so bad, I noticed it 100 feet across the dealer lot (could have been wrecked but they insisted it wasn't). These were all low mileage units 10k or less GM Certified used. I really had my mind set on a Denali, but after driving them I was far from impressed with how it drove.
The Expedition OTOH, was my last choice to look at. The only reason I looked at an Expedition is after ruling out a Sequia (07's and earlier didn't have enough tow capacity, and the 08's and newer are ugly and expensive), Armada (really liked but couldn't find any used LE models locally for a decent price and pre '08's had and an ugly cheap interior), so I decided to look at the Expedition. I really didn't have high expectations because I was not sold on the exterior and interior design. But I was really impressed with how it drove and handled. I took it down the same old bumpy country road at 50mph which completely befuddled and confused the suspension in the 3 Yukon's I drove (the 3/4 ton was a joke, I could hardly keep it on the road, plus the 6.0/4speed combo it felt very sluggish), the Expedition stayed firm and well controlled, w/o any rattles either. The extra control of the rear IRS was very noticeable, as was steering that is much tighter and direct.
Add the fact that the Expedition has a higher tow rating (which I need), more room in the 3rd row (the fold flat seats are one of those things that you don't know what your missing until you've had them), 6speed trans with better gearing (can't get 3.73 gears with a 6speed from GM), while the 5.4 can't match the power of the 6.2, it is much quieter, gets better fuel economy, and is geared very well for towing. I found a great deal on a black and tan Eddie Bauer with black and tan leather with black and silver dash (looks infinitely better than some of the interior other color combo's).
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Rocky, I still have my 2003 YD...build quality sucks big time. Parts failed left and right. You know my story. I fully agree with The Diesel on this FACT.
I wonder what it's worth in today's market? I want to dump it but will wait for after the Pre-Pack to see if the White House has good service hours. :surprise:
Regards,
OW
For sure, OW, that's the funniest thing I've heard all day. I can relate, though, as I've purchased my share of bogus GM products. That aside, I have a good feeling about the new Camaro, I must say. I think it's on line with the new Malibu, which ain't a bad ride from what I read and hear.
Regards,
Dale
Haven't seen one live yet but the price point is a breath of fresh air not seen in a long, long time from GM....usually, the fenders fall off under $25K and it's worth $19K pulling out of the show room!
Regards,
OW
Regards:
OldCEM