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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    So diesel you are a Enclave fan?

    -Rocky
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    that I like the Enclave. If I was in the market for that type of vehicle, I'd be tempted by it.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    So diesel you are a Enclave fan?

    Well, I think the look nice and they seem to have all the bases covered. I've never driven one, so I can't I'm a true fan w/o driving it first.

    I also kind of like the new highlander. Not that I would buy one, but the latest redesign is much better than the previous model. The only reason I have an SUV is for towing, so I'd much rather have a nice sedan to drive everyday. Maybe a CTS, that would probably be the only GM car I would consider at this point. While the 2010 LaCrosse looks interesting I don't know if I could honestly bring myself to buy a Buick sedan. But I never say never. 5 years ago I would have never guessed that I'd own an Expedition.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My grandparents just purchased a loaded out White Diamond Enclave just a few days ago.

    I love the white diamond color if it is the same pearl they use on the Caddy. I like the looks of the Acadia best. The Traverse is ugly to my eyes. The Enclave is so Buick. They are gas hogs around town. Pretty good on the highway. A friend has the Acadia and drags his 5 grandkids all over the place and loves it. Just that 16 MPG in town is a killer for him. He does not have a fat UAW pension. :shades:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Just that 16 MPG in town is a killer for him. He does not have a fat UAW pension. :shades:

    It is a 5,000lb vehicle and w/o going hybrid or diesel your not going to get much better that w/o cutting the weight. A similar sized Tahoe with less interior space would be lucky to get 13-14mpg in the same type of driving, so I guess it's not that bad.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    built in Canada by CAW workers
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The only pensions that I know are fat are government employees and Teamsters retirees from the telephone company in Alaska ;):blush:

    -Rocky
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    Check out the on demand v8 that run on 4 banger but use the 8 when required but this is GM
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Taken another way, there are few cars made by the D3 that are "fun to drive" and only EXTREMLY few hold their value, IMHO.

    Corvette, CTS (post 2008), Camaro, G-8 GT and perhaps the Solstice/Sky, Mustang, Challenger, 300C, Charger...maybe 15 out of 60 nameplates?


    Compared to what?

    Corolla GTS - gone, Celica - gone, MR2 - gone, CRX - gone, Prelude - gone, NSX - gone, 240 SX - gone, 200 SX - gone

    Civic SI, eh, I'm trying, I know I can think of a few more...350z, Sentra SE-R, WRX/STI, Lancer EVO (at $30+k...), RX8, Legacy B-spec so what, maybe 15 out of 60 nameplates?
  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    Yes, the 03 was the redesign with the 4.7. 32 valves. Kind of an exotic engine for a suv, I think. The 4.0 in the 07 is okay but no torque monster that the 4.7 is. To tell the truth, though, I like the older body style better. Still a good vehicle. The Pathfinder is also a nice suv. It now comes with a V8 as an option. Have never driven one but I bet it's a nice ride. I love V8 power and RWD, hate front drivers with their torque steer, which makes it feel as though it's possessed or something! Enjoy the weekend.

    Regards,

    Dale
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    246 people lost their jobs today at a supplier to D3. Greencastle is about 35 mi West of my house. I think DePauw University is there. 6 Chrysler plants to close by 2010.

    Chrysler is the test case for 'will people buy from a company in BK? We will know in 30 days.

    Toyota fell the 2nd most in sales, behind Chrysler's 48% fall. Ford outsold Toyota in April. It this the beginning of people not liking their neighbors house in foreclosure? I am wondering when the good of the country being put on hold over a perception was going to start to turn.
    More people need to wake up.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    You are so right. Those pesky "customers"! They just don't know that they should be buying inferior products rather than what they want. How dare they.

    Where were you when JD Powers put Buick at the top in quality?

    I heard a car drive by my house yesterday and it sounded like a sick 49cc scooter. I turned and saw it was a Toyota Corolla.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    Sales so far this year for the major automakers

    1- GM--------: 585,676, down 44.5%, Market Share: 19.5
    2- Toyota----: 486,212, down 37.8%, Market Share: 16.2
    3- Ford-------: 457,267 down 39.7%, Market Share: 15.2
    4- Honda----: 332,014 down 31.4%, Market Share: 11
    5- Chrysler--: 323,890 down 45.6%, Market Share: 10.8
    6- Nissan----: 221,957, down 35.1%, Market Share 7.4
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    These numbers were interesting too:

    Top-20 selling vehicles in U.S. through April (Reuters)

    #1 is the Ford F-series pickup; #2 is the Chevy Silverado.

    AutoObserver has the blow by blow for just about every make sold in the US.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Notice the Jeep Wrangler and the Hyundai Elantra are both in the positive column. The Cobalt, GMs answer to those looking for a high MPG sub-compact is really in the toilet. The Impala should just be done away with. Down 54% YTD is pretty sad. GM should keep the Malibu and Silverado and can the rest of the junk.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The percentage decrease on the Impala isn't encouraging, yet it still made the top 20 list.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    More people need to wake up.

    The customers have been awake for the past 30 years, which is why the D3 market share has plummeted. The people who were not awake were the management and employees of the D3.

    This year's events should finally wake them up as you suggest. ;)
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    Lemko:

    I've owned about a dozen Chryslers over the years. Had good luck with the first 10. The last 2 , both Sebrings, were so trouble prone that I had to dump both of them as soon as they went out of warranty.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Where were you when JD Powers put Buick at the top in quality?

    Unfortunately quality as measured by JDP is not the only type of quality a customer is seeking.

    Efficiency, refinement, tactile feel - those are important too. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't believe I have seen a current Impala on the road. Rarely see any GM cars except an occasional Caddy or Buick driven by a retired Marine. Most of the Domestics sold here are trucks and SUVs. My neighbor has a lot of GM cars. The newest is 1957. His everyday driver is a 1960s Bronco. He does have a recent 1 ton Ford PS that he uses to pull a flatbed trailer. He can haul two cars at a time on it.

    GM has lost 4 more percentage points since last year this time. Will Toyota pass them this year?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Where were you when JD Powers put Buick at the top in quality?

    Unfortunately quality as measured by JDP is not the only type of quality a customer is seeking.

    Efficiency, refinement, tactile feel - those are important too


    When was the last time you drove a Buick? Not read something about one, not heard people talking about it, when was the last time you drove one?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I don't believe I have seen a current Impala on the road.

    I know several people with Impala's but they're not retail purchases, but company cars. The Impala is severely outclassed by just about anything in it's class anymore. That doesn't make it a bad car, but it scores around 0 on the desirability scale.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Check out the on demand v8 that run on 4 banger but use the 8 when required but this is GM

    I'm familiar with DOD, but I've never seen much evidence that it substantially improves fuel economy in real world driving. Those I've talked to with 5.3 DOD Tahoe's/Suburban's tell me once you get over 65 it's almost impossible to keep it in 4cyl mode. Who drives 65 or less on the hwy? While DOD may indeed save fuel in certain situations, it certainly isn't enough to make me choose one vehicle over another.

    The 4x4 09 Expedition and 4x4 09 Tahoe have the same fuel economy ratings, so I don't see where DOD pays off particularly since the Expedition weighs about 300-400lbs more and has more torque.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Jeep wrangler, Sonata and Chevy Malibu were tops at retaining sales from last year to this year.

    Prius was 1% more popular than the Cobalt.

    Big trucks outsell the Prius 7 to 1

    Local ford and chev dealers offering V8 full size with air and automatic for $13,900 F and $14,900 Chevy. The $10,000 not spent to upgrade to a Prius buys 5,000 gallons of gas these days. Thats about 7-10 years worth. About the time it takes to need a $10,000 battery in the Prius?

    The fight for energy savings is pitted against the high cost of technology and the loss of American jobs.
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    OK if you know but I had a Monte Carlo 2006 with the DOD and at 110 MPH it reved at 2200 on four cyldrs. guess the 300-400 lbs. could throw the thing out but again try it you might like it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My girlfriend has yet to use the warranty on her LaCrosse after over 4 years and 41K miles. When Better Automobiles Are Built, Buick Will Build Them!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Geeze, sounds like all the exciting models are gone. You forgot about the Supra - probably the most exciting Toyota.

    We Build Boredom! Toyota!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well said, dave!!! When people start seeing their beautiful suburban neighborhoods turn into dangerous ghettos like I've seen happen to too many once beautiful inner city neighborhoods , maybe they'll wake up?

    When one has to answer the door with a loaded .38 Special in behind one's back, maybe they'll wake up.

    When you're afraid to walk to the store because the streets are full of dangerous thugs who were once your gainfully employed neighbors and their once well-behaved kids, maybe they'll wake up?

    When the store is no longer there and you have to drive 10 miles out of town just for essentials, maybe they'll wake up?

    When Little Johnny next door walks up to your car at the corner and tries to sell you some crack, maybe they'll wake up?

    When you're going to the funerals of your friends' kids who were killed in gang violence, maybe they'll wake up?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The way it's going, Ford may surpass GM in sales this year.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    OK if you know but I had a Monte Carlo 2006 with the DOD and at 110 MPH it reved at 2200 on four cyldrs. guess the 300-400 lbs. could throw the thing out but again try it you might like it.

    That's some seriously tall gearing if it can run 2200rpm at 110. I kind of find that hard to believe but what ever. I thought 5.3 setup had similar gearing to other 3.8/3.9 powered 4speed GM cars. My wife's 07 GP runs about 75@ 2200 rpm. My expedition is about the same.

    As for DOD, a Tahoe/Suburban has tons more drag and weight than a Monte Carlo.

    I don't know, DOD seems more like a marketing gimmick to me. Looking at an Impala SS vs a 3.9 powered LT. 27hwy for the 3.9 and 24 hwy for the 5.3 DOD. That's no better than an Acadia that weighs a 1000lbs more a lot bigger and nearly has as much power w/o DOD. I'd think if DOD truely worked it would get mileage closer to the 3.9 considering the 3.9 doesn't have DOD.

    Anyway it's an interesting feature that hasn't really caught on with other mfg. Does the hemi still us it? I know honda uses in the their 3.5 v6, don't know how effective it really is at saving fuel.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    When was the last time you drove a Buick? Not read something about one, not heard people talking about it, when was the last time you drove one?

    I have NOT driven a Buick. I like sporty handling cars. Every review from every magazine I read says Buicks are soft/luxury-type cars. There are plenty of good choices out there in my interest area, especially that are not from financially troubled automakers. I would not consider a Buick.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I have NOT driven a Buick. I like sporty handling cars. Every review from every magazine I read says Buicks are soft/luxury-type cars. There are plenty of good choices out there in my interest area, especially that are not from financially troubled automakers. I would not consider a Buick.

    So what you are saying is that you would not consider a Buick because the ride characterisitcs are not tuned to match your wants. Fair enough, not your market, I am in the same *sic* boat here. My question then, is having not driven one, not being the demographic they are looking for, do you make a comment like:

    Unfortunately quality as measured by JDP is not the only type of quality a customer is seeking.

    Efficiency, refinement, tactile feel - those are important too


    There are no complaints about ride quality or NVH, I haven't felt, read or seen any complaints on the switches, 280 hp DI V6,...18/28 mpg (Compared to 19/27 for the Lexus ES350 w/slightly less horsepower)...

    I am sure you realized this before you made the comment and it wasn't implying directly that the Buick lacked those things. It was merely to point out that there is life beyond surveys, I am sure.

    I think there are a lot of people that talk about things they know nothing about because they feel its popular. Too bad, really.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    I don't know, DOD seems more like a marketing gimmick to me. Looking at an Impala SS vs a 3.9 powered LT. 27hwy for the 3.9 and 24 hwy for the 5.3 DOD. That's no better than an Acadia that weighs a 1000lbs more a lot bigger and nearly has as much power w/o DOD. I'd think if DOD truely worked it would get mileage closer to the 3.9 considering the 3.9 doesn't have DOD.

    Anyway it's an interesting feature that hasn't really caught on with other mfg. Does the hemi still us it? I know honda uses in the their 3.5 v6, don't know how effective it really is at saving fuel.


    Apparently, it gets a lot of complaints in the Honda. There are a few forums about it. Of course, there was the 4/6/8 Cadillac from way back when also...
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    That's some seriously tall gearing if it can run 2200rpm at 110. I kind of find that hard to believe but what ever. I thought 5.3 setup had similar gearing to other 3.8/3.9 powered 4speed GM cars. My wife's 07 GP runs about 75 2200 rpm. My expedition is about the same.

    I did a little googling, and it looks like the Monte with the 5.3 has a 3.29:1 axle, and top gear is 0.70:1, which would give it an overall effective gear ratio of around 2.3:1. I know the effective ratio in my Intrepid is around 2.60:1 (3.89 axle, 0.67:1 overdrive gear) and at 100 mph it does around 3333 rpm. So at 110, that would put it up to around 3666 rpm. So a 2.3 effective ratio would put you around 3240 rpm at 110, presuming similar-sized tires. A Monte SS would have bigger tires and wheels, but not enough to knock the revs down by roughly 1/3!

    Even with those extra-loafy ratios they used in the old days, you'd be revving higher than 2200. Something like the 2.73:1 axle in my old '85 LeSabre, with the 0.67:1 overdrive it had would've left you around 2500-2600 rpm. I think my old '86 Monte Carlo had a 2.56:1 axle would be around 2400 rpm at 110. And I imagine if you went with any axle ratio taller than that, they wouldn't have been using overdrive automatics, but just old 3-speed automatics with no overdrive and a 1:1 top gear.

    Also seems to me that it would take a lot of power to move a car along at 110 mph, and that wouldn't be a situation where a DOD engine would drop to 4 cylinders. I guess it's possible on level enough ground, maybe the load might get light enough on the engine for it to engage, and then if you took your foot off the gas pedal the revs would drop to 2200 for a moment? Heck, I can get my Intrepid's revs at highway speeds down to under 1000...if I put it in neutral. :P

    Now, I could be totally wrong about this, but 2200 rpm @ 110 mph just doesn't seem possible.

    As for Chrysler's Hemi, I think it does still use DOD. IIRC, it gets you about 1-2 mpg more on the highway cycle than without it. I believe it was always used in cars, but not initially in the Ram. And I think it took a couple years before you could get it in the Durango.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Chrysler is the test case for 'will people buy from a company in BK? We will know in 30 days.

    Hardly, considering they weren't really buying from Chrysler to begin with. They'll probably sell a lot of their remaining stock to fleets for what they can get and be done with it anyway.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    There are no complaints about ride quality or NVH, I haven't felt, read or seen any complaints on the switches, 280 hp DI V6,...18/28 mpg (Compared to 19/27 for the Lexus ES350 w/slightly less horsepower)...

    I am sure you realized this before you made the comment and it wasn't implying directly that the Buick lacked those things. It was merely to point out that there is life beyond surveys, I am sure.


    Fair question. There seems to be a broad consensus from most reviews about the negative quality of GM products, especially the cars (excluding Malibu and recent CTS).

    My own experience with other GMs supports the fact that the interiors kind of sucked. The Grand Prix a coworker let me drive, for example. The G6 that I rented. I actually thought the engine in the G6 was pretty refined and that surprised me. But the interior was lousy and the handling was poor. So when you say JDP likes Buick's quality, I pointed out that was only one aspect of why a buyer would choose a car, and that "quality" is a set of features which include reliability, interior refinement, NVH, handling, and probably others.

    The JDP data may suggest that Buick is among the best of GMs vehicles in reliability for the first say, 3 years, but that is far from a complete picture of "quality" for an overall set of vehicles.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,576
    The JDP data may suggest that Buick is among the best of GMs vehicles in reliability for the first say, 3 years, but that is far from a complete picture of "quality" for an overall set of vehicles.

    What the JDP data implies is that Buick drivers like Buicks. (They'd have to.)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I don't know, DOD seems more like a marketing gimmick to me. Looking at an Impala SS vs a 3.9 powered LT. 27hwy for the 3.9 and 24 hwy for the 5.3 DOD. That's no better than an Acadia that weighs a 1000lbs more a lot bigger and nearly has as much power w/o DOD. I'd think if DOD truely worked it would get mileage closer to the 3.9 considering the 3.9 doesn't have DOD.

    Anyway it's an interesting feature that hasn't really caught on with other mfg. Does the hemi still us it? I know honda uses in the their 3.5 v6, don't know how effective it really is at saving fuel.


    Couldn't agree with you more. The only time DOD actually will save you fuel is on the dynomometer, or in Texas with a tailwind.....otherwise, it's all marketing hype.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The neighborhood looks like you have described it. Just thought it might be one of the Caddies in your stable. That was one of the last beautiful Cadillacs. Not sure about the treatment done on this one.

    image
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The JDP data may suggest that Buick is among the best of GMs vehicles in reliability for the first say, 3 years, but that is far from a complete picture of "quality" for an overall set of vehicles.

    3 cars hardly suggest industry-leading quality accross a broad spectrum of vehicle classes for a car company. That is why Lemko is reaping the benefit...GM got a few cars right!

    Other than that, GM is below the pack AFAIC...the rags are only a guide. Past experience puts a stamp on a brand from an individual point-of-view. The market tells the rest of the story as pain is felt and customers leave the brand in search of their quest for improvements.

    Given the shape of GM and C, the customers tell a story that has finally reached an inflection point in the US Auto industry. You survive if you make products people want to buy. All told, it doesn't matter what the rags say. C11 is the reality.

    Like I said in the previous post, there is really little excitment in the cars GM makes at the present time. Might as well buy a Honda, all things being equal except dependability!

    Only MHO, of course. :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Because until Nissan woke Japan up with some design, Japanese cars were not particularly exciting. where they excell over the D3 cars is in dependbility & NVH most apparently. That quiet, smooth reliable performance was what won most of us over. You listen to a Cavalier idle next to a Corolla and you'll see what I mean instantly. The Cavalier will sound like a John Deere tractor, while you can't hear or feel the Toyota running. That is what convinced me to look seriously at an Asain car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    The Cavalier will sound like a John Deere tractor, while you can't hear or feel the Toyota running. That is what convinced me to look seriously at an Asain car.

    That reminds me of something that happened in the fall of 2004. We have this old lawn tractor that we hadn't used in years, wouldn't start, and a local lawn/garden shop tried to say it was the flywheel and wanted $700 to fix it. The tractor is a roughly 1968 Montgomery Ward model, made by Simplicity or something like that. Well, I got a local old-timer who works on those things in his spare time to see if he could do anything with it. Did a little carb work on it (bad needle valve or something like that?) and that sucker fired right up. I remember remarking "Damn, that sucker sounds better than my uncle's Corolla!"

    The sad thing about this story? I wasn't being hyperbolic, metaphoric, or whatever the word is. I think my uncle's '03 Corolla sounds like crap when it starts up. Always has. In all fairness though, I think my ear is just tuned to bigger engines, so most 4-cyl engines don't sound that good to me. I remember checking out an '02 Altima when they came out, and for the most part liked the car, except for the way the 2.5 4-cyl sounded at lower speeds and when accelerating It was eerily quiet at highway speeds, though. Seems like Honda makes decent sounding 4-cyl engines, though. At least, in the '03-07 style Accord it sounds decent. I guess if you're into smaller cars though, you might notice the difference more between a Japanese engine and a domestic.

    As for that old tractor? Well, after the guy fixed it, I swore we'd run it every once in awhile, just so it doesn't go dormant again. Unfortunately, though, it got pushed into the back of the garage, as we have a "new" 1990 tractor that we normally use for grass. The old one had a detachable mower deck that had been taken off, and was hard to wrestle back on. The "new" one broke this spring, so I had to press that old sucker back into duty. And after sitting about 4 1/2 years, the sucker fired right up! And still sounded better than my uncle's '03 Corolla!

    Heck, maybe Simplicity should've gone into the auto business! :P
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That cracks me up. Bet you a buck it's an old MTD under the skin just like the old defunct department store branded one my neighbor has. I borrow it a few times a year; otherwise it'd never get cranked. Let me know if you need schematics for it. :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >Heck, maybe Simplicity should've gone into the auto business!

    How many miles per gallon does it get?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I really don't know much about it, but here's a website devoted to the thing. I guess there's a website devoted to just about EVERYTHING on the net these days!

    I do remember the guy who worked on it mentioning MTD, but that might have been the newer 1990 tractor we have, which he's also done work on.

    I didn't realize the old tractor was so heavy...680 lb according to that website. With the newer one, if it got something caught in the blades, I'd just turn it off and tilt it on its side and balance it while cleaning it out. Not gonna happen with the old one!

    Imidazol, I have noticed that it is a bit of a guzzler. I don't know how big the fuel tank is, but it does seem to burn more fuel than the newer one. But then the newer one is lighter, more aerodynamic, and has a more modern 7-speed transmission, compared to the old tractor's 3-speed. And, well, we all know what a point of contention the number of transmission gears can be in these Edmund's forums that pertain to GM! :P
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >contention the number of transmission gears can be in these Edmund's forums that pertain to GM!

    But what's really important to posters on GM discussions is whether it's overhead cam or old-fashioned pushrods!!! :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    AVG reports "exploit script injection" threats when trying to load that website fwiw.

    Under the skin, those old lawn tractors are exactly alike. Sort of like Chevy, Buick, Pontiac and Caddy sharing platforms. :shades:
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    My biggest complaint about all cars is interiors. Get out of my '98 Astro and into my friend's '98 Civic and you know you have stepped down. Both vehicles sold for same price new. Astro has chassis that is still like a rock. Civic has sound that tranny is held on with sheet metal brackets that now flex a half inch with each gear change. Do you have any specific documentation that "there seems to be a broad consensus from most reviews about the negative quality of GM products, especially the cars"? I like your except list, it's longer than the entire Honda product list.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Just a quick bit of fact-checking:

    About the time it takes to need a $10,000 battery in the Prius?

    Complete replacement price for a Prius battery pack, from the Toyota dealer, at retail, today: $2200.

    Warranty for the battery pack in California and all PZEV states that follow Cailfornia emissions (currently there are 13, I believe, which represent 60% of all U.S. car sales): 150K miles. Try finding any car company that will warrant its automatic transmission for 150K miles. I mention that because replace/repair costs are roughly comparable.

    Local ford and chev dealers offering V8 full size with air and automatic for $13,900 F and $14,900 Chevy. The $10,000 not spent to upgrade to a Prius buys 5,000 gallons of gas these days. Thats about 7-10 years worth.

    You are talking about full-size trucks that make 15-18 mpg at the most. For someone driving 12K per year, that is 7.5 years at the outside. For someone driving 15K per year and averaging 15 mpg it is 5 years of driving. And don't ignore that the Prius will seat four adults in comfort, the full-size pick-up is going to have one of those short, bolt-upright seats for the second pair of adults to squeeze into. And the Prius will have 7 airbags, ABS, and ESC. I know the Chevy won't have those at that price, not sure about the Ford. Plus, will you be counting on $2 gas for the next five to seven years? I won't.

    And be careful what you say about the Prius - don't forget that the very company you are promoting is hoping to sell a compact plug-in hybrid car, the Volt, for $40K in about two years' time.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Fiat seeks to control GM Europe without taking on new debt

    May 4, 2009 - 9:01 am ET
    UPDATED: 5/4/09 11 a.m. ET

    BERLIN (Reuters) -- Fiat S.p.A. plans to take control of General Motors Europe without absorbing new debt, German Economy Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg said today, following talks with Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne.

    Guttenberg said Marchionne had presented plans to become Europe's biggest automaker. The plan foresaw Opel's final assembly plants in Germany staying operational, but envisioned the closing of some GM Europe plants.

    .....Guttenberg said Marchionne estimates the need for 5 billion euros to 7 billion euros ($6.67 billion - $9.33 billion) in bridge financing for its proposed GM Europe deal.

    .....Marchionne's plan would involve spinning off Fiat's core car business into a new company including Chrysler and GM Europe and listing it on a stock exchange.

    .....The new company would see the Agnelli family's 30 percent shareholding of Fiat Auto diluted after the spinoff, with GM also a minority shareholder in Fiat/Opel, the Financial Times said.

    The merged company could also include GM's Latin American operations, the newspaper reported.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090504/COPY01/305059996/1193
    (registration link?)

    The article doesn't mention Vauxhall, but you have to wonder if this won't affect Vauxhall too. And will GM's brand names disappear throughout Europe and Latin America in favor of Fiat brand names? It's hard to understand exactly what is envisioned in Fiat's grand scheme here, but Fiat seems to me to be overreaching its financial limitations.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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