The Telsa will leave the Volt in the dust and it's a niche brand as will be the Volt for a long time until electric tech and infrastructure become mainstream. The Hybrids will rule in the interim. That is precisely why the Volt will not work out for whatever we will call GM going forward.
Exactly correct. GM's hybrid strategy has been an abject failure and is the icing on a screwed up cake. Whereas Honda, Toyota, and Ford each put out hybrid vehicles that were only a bit more expensive, but priced mainstream to get some actual volume, GM just HAD to follow with not one, not two, but THREE different hybrid approaches, each approach inferior to Toy, Hon, and Ford:
1 - throw a generator that can function as a motor on a few vehicles and call them a hybrid: Malibu, Vue "Green Line" (another hype term covering up for no technology). About 1 mpg improvement. Stupid. 2 - develop a highly complex and expensive two-mode hybrid system and throw it on the big gas guzzlers: Escalade, etc. Adds $10K to cost. Payback is >>10 years. Read the Edmund's review on the driveability of this abomination. 3 - the Volt. Spend a $$billion or so that GM can't afford, to try and leapfrog everybody else technologically. Advertise it for four years in advance of a real product. Problem is it will cost so much that it can never recoup its development costs or sell in any significant volumes. If it ever makes it to market or succeeds technologically.
Another point regarding the Volt. An earlier post said that the Volt is more like the Tesla. Wrong. The Volt is still a HYBRID. Once you've gone 40 miles you are on gasoline power. With a drained battery you can never have more power than that gas engine can give you, you will have less as no energy conversion is 100% efficient. This is basic thermodynamics.
So after 40 miles in your Volt, what happens when you need to climb the mountain pass? You are going to be in low gear in the right lane poking along, because your battery is dead! And that wimpy engine has to charge the battery, and the battery is immediately using all that charge to propel you up the hill! So you have, maximum, the amount of energy that wimpy engine can put out to get you over the hill!
The Volt might be fine if you rarely go over 40 miles before recharging, but it will have serious usability issues for those who drive longer distances and need range. This will further limit its market.
The Tesla makes no bones about it, you go max range on electricity (>200 miles) and it is time to recharge! Not a puny 40 miles like the Volt.
Nice little propaganda piece, but not likely to sway any opinions. So if my Honda is more domestic content than my Fusion, I should buy the Honda, right?
The Insight isn't even a real Hybrid. It is always using its ICE.
Your definition of hybrid is different than most peoples'. Using your logic the Malibu and Vue hybrids aren't hybrids either, and they are certainly less of a hybrid than the Insight. Hybrids use regenerative braking to charge a battery that helps add power during propulsion. Not a difficult concept. Who cares if the ICE is running if the mileage increases, significantly (vs. dismally like the Vue and Malibu hybrids)?
Please provide a link to the definition of hybrid where the ICE can't always run.
Mazda6 0-60: 6.5 seconds (edmunds- random $25k car) Prius 0-60: 11 seconds
I said practical, not fast.
Hmm a Lexus HS250 probably does...pricing hasn't been release yet...nor has an official price for the Volt.
Uh huh, sure let's compare Volt with something from a class higher than it's own right. And how do you think a $40k Lexus will stack up against a $40k Chevy Volt? Lexus HS will be the better choice, being much more luxurious and all. Plus it's backed with Lexus' red carpet customer service. I'm no Lexus fan but if I have to choose between the 2 the HS will definitely be it.
Like I said, there's not enough savings for the buyers to justify the Volt's price.
Riiight, so since you are so caught up on cost, how much is that Tesla right now...oh yeah $109,000. That is 5 zeros. So for 30% of that I can get a BEV with an onboard generator so I don't need a second vehicle to go on trips? Yeah thats terrible. Shoot me now.
In case you forgot, it's you who compared Volt with tesla in the beginning. :P :P :P
So why should I suddenly base my car buying decision on Who my car company borrowed it's money from?
Well, there is a very real factor. Let's say you have a Chevy on the one hand, and a Ford on the other. Each one costs the same for the same features (unlikely, I know). The Ford costs you less, because you've ALREADY paid X amount to GM (so have the rest of us) and received nothing in exchange.
I find that so interesting, just as a side note...GM requested bailout bucks for nothing in exchange rather than offering some piled up stock either as collateral or even to sell to the government.
So you have, maximum, the amount of energy that wimpy engine can put out to get you over the hill!
Less than. The Volt operates off of the battery according to the information we've seen, and as you said, some energy is lost in the charging process. That's why current hybrid systems use the engine to power the car, not just charge the battery...to avoid that energy loss. Instead, they take energy that would otherwise be lost (from braking and coasting) and use THAT to charge batteries.
By not allowing the engine to power the car directly, they are actually decreasing efficiency.
(AP) - The auto plants and steel mills, once the lifeblood of Warren, are ghosts of their former selves. Plants lie idle, shifts have been cut, and the huge parking lot outside the Lordstown General Motors factory is nearly empty. The Golden Gate restaurant and Mary M's, fixtures for years, are shuttered. Houses are boarded up. Businesses have given up on downtown.
There is a saying among old-timers in this gritty river town: What recession? We've been stuck in one for 30 years. Yet even stubborn Warren, a town with a dwindling population of about 43,000 in northeast Ohio, is being tested like never before. And folks talk of a hopelessness, a weariness of spirit that is pervading every aspect of life.
"It's like lives are being stripped away whole," says Pam Bennett, 55, a retired high school secretary who volunteers at the Warren Family Mission, where hundreds of people flock every week for food and clothes and shelter. Many are families with small children. Many have lost their jobs. And many are coming in for the first time.
There was a time when jobs - good-paying jobs - were plentiful. People like Bennett's husband, David, marched straight out of high school and into Delphi Packard Electric Systems, once one of the area's largest and best-paying employers. Now the auto parts plant operates with a skeletal crew. After 37 years, Bennett has been told his health benefits will end when he retires, his pension is frozen and he will lose his job if the plant folds this summer.
And so the Bennetts have abandoned their dream of retiring to Myrtle Beach, S.C., and building a small prefabricated house where they hoped to spend sun-filled days after a life of frugality and hard work.
These days Warren is littered with abandoned dreams.
"It's awful, just awful," says Nick Angelo, 73, who raised six children and two grandchildren in what he says was once a vibrant, prosperous community. Now he feels nothing but sadness when he walks past the closed store fronts near the courthouse square.
"I feel sorry for the young people," Angelo says.
Angelo, a retired high school athletic director, vividly recalls a time when things were different, when the town sparkled with vitality and hope. It was in the early 1970s and for four consecutive years the two high school football teams - the Warren Harding Panthers and the Warren Western Reserve Raiders - won state championships. There were parades and lavish pre-game dinners at the Golden Gate and 15,000 cheering fans turned out in support.
There was a glimmer of that former glory this spring when the high school basketball team made it to the state semifinals and several thousand fans drove three hours to Columbus to watch the game.
For a week, it was as if the team held the heart of the town. Bands played at pep rallies, restaurants donated food, and "Go Raiders!" signs bedecked the town.
"People just desperately need some hope to cling to," coach Steve Arnold says. "And for a short time, we were that hope."
Over at the Hoyt Street Church, Pastor Gerald Morgan sees the same thirst for hope. Worshippers are flocking to services in greater numbers, though donations are down. It's always that way in a time of austerity, he says. People turn to the church for solace and for answers they can't find anywhere else.
The 59-year-old minister, who spent 30 years on a General Motors assembly line before becoming a full-time pastor, doesn't have answers. Just a deep, ingrained knowledge of how his people are suffering. And an abiding faith that, no matter how bad things get, they will pull through.
And so he quotes from Genesis, the passage about how the earth returned to life after the devastation of the great flood. And he tells his congregation that Warren too will emerge from this latest chapter of darkness, and someday thrive again.
Right, and no one else bought it either right? Because there is no emotion involved in buying a car, its all about the most practical cheapest way to get from point A to point B...
Well, if that's the case, I wouldn't have a car at all! The cheapest and most practical way for me to get from point A to point B is to walk! I live close enough to work to walk. The local supermarket is within two blocks of me. Same with the local drugstore. There quite a few restaurants and taverns in my vicinity.
The answer's easy - the Chevy! It's a lot prettier than any Ford! I always thought Fords were kind of dull compared to GM and Mopar. GM cars were always the most attractive and Chrysler cars the most exciting. Ford can build a few interesting cars like the Mustang, but for the most part, I find them dull and lifeless like almost all of the Asian imports. Maybe people don't want beautiful, exciting cars anymore. Maybe all they want are dull transportation capsules like Fords and Camcords.
The answer's easy - the Chevy! It's a lot prettier than any Ford! I always thought Fords were kind of dull compared to GM and Mopar. GM cars were always the most attractive and Chrysler cars the most exciting. Ford can build a few interesting cars like the Mustang, but for the most part, I find them dull and lifeless like almost all of the Asian imports. Maybe people don't want beautiful, exciting cars anymore. Maybe all they want are dull transportation capsules like Fords and Camcords. \
Said Asian imports appear to be quite successful and profitable. Maybe this explains why GM and Chrysler are in such deep trouble. While Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc were building cars people wanted, GM and Chrysler were building cars they wanted instead.
Well, which reinforces what I just said. The people of today prefer dull, lifeless, boring, tedious, anonymous, spiritless, dead, stale, uninteresting cars like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc.
Where's Doc Brown's Delorean so I can go back to 1955, break it and stay there? Just think, I'll get to go through the Muscle Car Era I was too young to enjoy the first time through! Hopefully I'll be dead before 2009 comes again.
Well, which reinforces what I just said. The people of today prefer dull, lifeless, boring, tedious, anonymous, spiritless, dead, stale, uninteresting cars like Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc.
Maybe, but here's a great philosophical question, heh: Is it GM's fault for not building a product that appeals to customers, or is it the customers' collective faults for not finding GM's products appealing? :shades:
The answer is supposed to be A, but it seems like a lot of people, GM included, think it's supposed to be B.
Oh, I don't know. I am waiting for the right time to buy a 'vette which with technology, could easily surpass 30 MPG avg. fuel economy. Imagine a Corvette with the CTS engine would almost get there. Less power but far less weight. I would imagine that car would be no more than 3,100 lbs. Now that's exciting and efficient with old technology. Imagine just a little ingenuity could have a blown 4 banger that would get the 'vette close to 40 mpg on the highway.
Perhaps I'll buy some 'vette bodies from the new owners to experiment with some college engineers fresh from graduation this year....nothing else to do!
Maybe, but here's a great philosophical question, heh: Is it GM's fault for not building a product that appeals to customers, or is it the customers' collective faults for not finding GM's products appealing?
The answer is supposed to be A, but it seems like a lot of people, GM included, think it's supposed to be B.
It's always been answer A but twisted by some to B. The B folks, in the majority, refuse to see that the market will always rule. If market share is going down for company A and increasing for company B and C, there is a direct correlation to the products of company A not doing their job.
1 - throw a generator that can function as a motor on a few vehicles and call them a hybrid: Malibu, Vue "Green Line" (another hype term covering up for no technology). About 1 mpg improvement. Stupid.
This is basically autostart-stop technology, just like the original Civic "hybrid." 0 mph is 0 mpg.
2 - develop a highly complex and expensive two-mode hybrid system and throw it on the big gas guzzlers: Escalade, etc. Adds $10K to cost. Payback is >>10 years.
Yeah, I think they could do better than a 10% increase in fuel economy on a 6000# vehicle.
Another point regarding the Volt. An earlier post said that the Volt is more like the Tesla. Wrong. The Volt is still a HYBRID. Once you've gone 40 miles you are on gasoline power. With a drained battery you can never have more power than that gas engine can give you, you will have less as no energy conversion is 100% efficient.
Right, and since something like 75% of the population live withing 40 miles of where they work, it may never turn on. The gasoline engine powers a generator, so I agree that there are losses in efficiency there, but that is allowing you've depleted the battery.
So after 40 miles in your Volt, what happens when you need to climb the mountain pass? You are going to be in low gear in the right lane poking along, because your battery is dead! And that wimpy engine has to charge the battery, and the battery is immediately using all that charge to propel you up the hill! So you have, maximum, the amount of energy that wimpy engine can put out to get you over the hill!
Right, and with the Tesla, you call AAA and get towed home. That sounds wonderful.
The Volt might be fine if you rarely go over 40 miles before recharging, but it will have serious usability issues for those who drive longer distances and need range. This will further limit its market.
So if it doesn't fit your lifestyle, don't buy one. I don't see why this is so complicated. It sounds like there is one of the biggest logical errors in engineering going on here...assuming everyone else's situation is just like yours.
Your definition of hybrid is different than most peoples'. Using your logic the Malibu and Vue hybrids aren't hybrids either, and they are certainly less of a hybrid than the Insight. Hybrids use regenerative braking to charge a battery that helps add power during propulsion. Not a difficult concept. Who cares if the ICE is running if the mileage increases, significantly (vs. dismally like the Vue and Malibu hybrids)?
I agree, Range Rover has auto-start-stop on their European vehicles, I don't think that makes them a hybrid. Just like the 1st generation Civic Hybrid.
Well, the market sucks! I guess it goes to show that nobody lost money underestimating the public's taste! I guess Baskin Robbins can make a fortune off that new unflavored ice cream in the styrofoam cone!
Well, the market sucks! I guess it goes to show that nobody lost money underestimating the public's taste! I guess Baskin Robbins can make a fortune off that new unflavored ice cream in the styrofoam cone!
Along the same lines, google "Toyota" and Vanilla" and see how many hits you get. Maybe OW is right.
Well, if that's the case, I wouldn't have a car at all!
I do understand your feelings on driving a larger more comfortable car. Our society has tried their best to make those of US that consider a vehicle more than just transportation, to feel guilty. I don't see our leaders sacrificing their comfort to save the planet or fossil fuel. I am a little too far from the grocery store to walk, at 2.8 miles. I would be happy with a little car for running errands. When I take a trip even 100 miles up to Los Angeles I want a large comfortable, quiet vehicle. I don't need a $million dollar limo like Barry. The reasons I would like higher mileage is to avoid stopping at a stinking gas station.
For me to drop from a 16 MPG Sequoia to a 20 MPG Escape/RAV4/CRV would be crazy. Going to a slightly smaller X5 diesel that gets 30 MPG on the highway and handles better than most sedans on the highway is a good option. Quite frankly GM and the D3 have NOTHING I would consider buying right now. For those that like big sedans the Buick and Caddy are fine. Just not my cup of tea. I have one, the LS400, and only drive it to see when it will break, so I can get rid of it. No more sedans in my future. Not much good on our 3rd world roads in CA. They are going to continue getting worse as we spend all the gas tax on welfare or something besides road maintenance.
You need to open up your mind! If you live that close to work, it makes more sense to take mass transportation instead of spending $40K on a useless 40 mile range plug-in. The Telsa is 200 and the Model S is around $50K. This is what I call a niche brand.
What market segment is the Volt targeted at? Not me or anyone I know. Anyone can buy 2 Honda Civics for that price. Let's get your estimate of the sales rate for this unique nameplate from the failed GM.
We're talking about the majority here, engineerboy. 40 miles is definitely not an appropriate endurance for a battery in a 40k car.
Sure, there are people who commute only about 40 miles a day, but how many of them are there? GM needs the Volt to sell in large numbers to survive, and trying to lure a tiny cadre of takers isn't gonna help.
Better yet, if you only drive 40 miles a day, why bother spending 40k on a Volt that needs frequent recharging, new battery every 5 years (according to GM itself), and cost $40k? Buy yourself a $15k Honda Fit and keep the change. It's as roomy as a Prius, and I seriously doubt GM can make Volt any roomier than a Prius.
Plus I agree with OW. If you really want to be "green" (or economical, choose whichever you want), then just take the mass transit, 40 miles or less isn't far at all.
You need to open up your mind! If you live that close to work, it makes more sense to take mass transportation instead of spending $40K on a useless 40 mile range plug-in
I don't think its my mind that is needs opening. In Santa Barbara, my father lives 6 miles from where he works. There is no bus stop there. There is no "high speed rail." From their house to downtown is about 12 miles. Again, no close bus stop, no "metro." The motor in that car would never turn on, even if he went to work AND down town.
In Ann Arbor, my wife is maybe 10 miles from where she works (i think its more like 7 miles). There is no bus service within 3 miles of our house. The majority of our neighborhood has at least 1 member of their household working within 15 minutes of home.
What market segment is the Volt targeted at? Not me or anyone I know.
We're talking about the majority here, engineerboy. 40 miles is definitely not an appropriate endurance for a battery in a 40k car.
This is where we fundamentally disagree...I think 40 miles on battery only is plenty of range for most commutes in the US. For those times when a family road trip is in order, the on board generator can recharge the battery.
Better yet, if you only drive 40 miles a day, why bother spending 40k on a Volt that needs frequent recharging, new battery every 5 years (according to GM itself), and cost $40k?
So how far does it have to be according to you to make sense? Hmm meets the needs of 80% of the population...
Buy yourself a $15k Honda Fit and keep the change. It's as roomy as a Prius, and I seriously doubt GM can make Volt any roomier than a Prius.
Eh, so you are suggesting to buy a Fit instead of a Prius as well? I think that is a valid point, since there is really no financial benefit to having a Prius. I thought you disagreed with me on that previously.
Plus I agree with OW. If you really want to be "green" (or economical, choose whichever you want), then just take the mass transit, 40 miles or less isn't far at all.
So what huge assumption are you falsely making here...oh that mass transit exists. Can you walk 40 miles? I can bike 40 miles but I don't think I could do 80, and it would be really ugly in the winter.
As I said before, living in a bubble and making decisions on what other people want based on your own personal lifestyle is kind of silly.
So if it doesn't fit your lifestyle, don't buy one. I don't see why this is so complicated. It sounds like there is one of the biggest logical errors in engineering going on here...assuming everyone else's situation is just like yours.
The point is that we have a car in the Volt that will have serious usability issues over 40 miles range - much more usability issues than the Prius or Insight or Tesla. The Tesla is very expensive but you get sports car performance and >200mph range. The Prius and Insight you get way more than 200 mile range and they are very affordable. The Volt is expensive and has a very serious usability limitation over 40 miles between charges. Most people these days expect to be able to go at least 200 miles between fillups. So for the Volt, it is going to cost a lot AND have this usability issue. The market will obviously be very small. What smart leader at GM thought there was a good business case for this vehicle?
With GM they've invested beaucoup $$$ on THREE different hybrid technologies, yet they don't even have a vehicle on the market that would be as affordable and usable while gaining substantial economy such as the Prius, Insight, Civic hybrid, Camry hybrid, Escape hybrid, or Fusion hybrid. That's just one example of why GM is such a failure as a business.
I agree, Range Rover has auto-start-stop on their European vehicles, I don't think that makes them a hybrid. Just like the 1st generation Civic Hybrid.
You may have a problem in understanding hybrids. Hybrids are "hybrid propulsion" which means that the vehicle is "propelled by more than one technology". That propulsion can be in combination or separately at different times. Auto start-stop is not a hybrid technology. Hybrids can add propulsive energy to the vehicle by some means other than an ICE. It does not mean the ICE needs to shut off. Auto start-stop is just an energy saver while at rest. It doesn't mean propulsion is occurring with any assistance from other than the ICE.
You could have an electric/flywheel hybrid. You could have an ICE/compressed air hybrid. Current hybrids are ICE/electric. You could also have a diesel/electric hybrid.
The Civic hybrid has a modified transmission that has effectively an electric motor built into it, which provides additional propulsion to the vehicle. That's why it is a hybrid and the Range Rover you cite is not.
You may have a problem in understanding hybrids. Hybrids are "hybrid propulsion" which means that the vehicle is "propelled by more than one technology".
So that would make the VOLT not a hybrid right, since it is ALWAYS propelled by an electric motor.
Further, that would make the Jeep Wrangler a hybrid since its possible to propel the vehicle using the starter motor, which would be a gasoline electric hyrbid (this is also how the Range Rovers use start stop technology...the starter motor propels the vehicle until the engine starts).
That's why it is a hybrid and the Range Rover you cite is not.
Contrare monfrare, the Range Rover is powered by an electric motor, as described above, so that would meet your definition of "propelled by more than one technology."
So that would make the VOLT not a hybrid right, since it is ALWAYS propelled by an electric motor.
Further, that would make the Jeep Wrangler a hybrid since its possible to propel the vehicle using the starter motor, which would be a gasoline electric hyrbid (this is also how the Range Rovers use start stop technology...the starter motor propels the vehicle until the engine starts).
That's why it is a hybrid and the Range Rover you cite is not.
Contrare monfrare, the Range Rover is powered by an electric motor, as described above, so that would meet your definition of "propelled by more than one technology."
Congratulations. You've just declared the Ford Fiesta to be the first subcompact hybrid to be sold in the US, as it has the auto-stop engine feature. It's powered 100% by the battery while not in motion. :shades: And their implementation costs a LOT less than the implementation on the Vue and Malibu, too.
".....The point is that we have a car in the Volt that will have serious usability issues over 40 miles range - much more usability issues than the Prius or Insight or Tesla. The Tesla is very expensive but you get sports car performance and >200mph range. The Prius and Insight you get way more than 200 mile range and they are very affordable. The Volt is expensive and has a very serious usability limitation over 40 miles between charges. Most people these days expect to be able to go at least 200 miles between fillups. So for the Volt, it is going to cost a lot AND have this usability issue. The market will obviously be very small. What smart leader at GM thought there was a good business case for this vehicle? "
I'm not getting your point. In the Volt, you go less than 40 miles, no gas engine, and no usability problem. You go MORE than 40 miles, gas engine kicks in, and you continue for another 300 miles or so. Run low on gas? Fill 'er up. Still, no usability problem.
Congratulations. You've just declared the Ford Fiesta to be the first subcompact hybrid to be sold in the US, as it has the auto-stop engine feature. It's powered 100% by the battery while not in motion.
I don't think so. The Fiesta uses a different system, its not based on using the starter. I will have to find the press release.
And their implementation costs a LOT less than the implementation on the Vue and Malibu, too.
This is true. But the technology wasn't available at the time.
You say this as GM is in first place in sales. So I just don't get the question. I assume you ar etalking about the last half decade.
It would have been better if GM could have reacted to gas price jumps with quick aturnaround change to production of small cars. They got caught not ferociously pursuing those new kind of customers when they were taking in a lot of truck and SUV sales dollars. To some, this is cause to ridicule.
Throw in bad timing, being the downturn created by the Oil traders and Mortgage sellers and traders, and you have the makings of a ridifest.
I don't think so. The Fiesta uses a different system, its not based on using the starter. I will have to find the press release.
It's less of a stretch than calling the Wrangler a hybrid because of the starter motor. Of course, if you really want to stretch things, any car coasting downhill is a hybrid ICE/gravity propulsion. So let's stop the silliness, shall we? The Wrangler isn't a hybrid, it can't go an inch without the ICE motor. The Fiesta isn't a hybrid because it shuts its engine off while idling. The Volt isn't a hybrid, it's an electric car with an on-board generator which can not directly power the vehicle, only charge the battery (which is a completely different drivetrain than a car propelled by both battery and ICE directly).
And the whole Mild Hybrid debacle was an attempt to throw on an idle engine cutoff system onto a car and call it "hybrid." The alternator can theoretically power the car up to 3 mph. That's not saying much since most cars travel 3 mph when idling in neutral with no pressure on the gas pedal. :shades:
This is true. But the technology wasn't available at the time.
Now THAT is silly-sounding, considering the new Malibu came out, what a year ago? Two, max?
It's less of a stretch than calling the Wrangler a hybrid because of the starter motor. Of course, if you really want to stretch things, any car coasting downhill is a hybrid ICE/gravity propulsion. So let's stop the silliness, shall we? The Wrangler isn't a hybrid, it can't go an inch without the ICE motor. The Fiesta isn't a hybrid because it shuts its engine off while idling. The Volt isn't a hybrid, it's an electric car with an on-board generator which can not directly power the vehicle, only charge the battery (which is a completely different drivetrain than a car propelled by both battery and ICE directly).
I'm totally with you on these counts.
Now THAT is silly-sounding, considering the new Malibu came out, what a year ago? Two, max?
I was referring to the Fiesta style auto stop-start. The other thing is 2-3 years ago there wasn't a lot of demand for paying $2500 for a drivetrain when gas was $2/gal. I probably would've worked a bit harder on figuring out how to do that though for the future.
The other thing is 2-3 years ago there wasn't a lot of demand for paying $2500 for a drivetrain when gas was $2/gal.
And yest Ford and Honda had to be working on their next-gen hybrid systems for them to be available today, even though gas was $2 a gallon when they started working on them. GM was still throwing money down a hole labeled Volt and trying to con people into thinking there was a hybrid version of the Malibu.
To be fair Toyota didn't set the world on fire with anything revolutionary either...like, say a Sienna Hybrid and release the first hybrid minivan for larger families or something. Something GM also could have tried with a Traverse Hybrid, assuming they had a real, viable, workable hybrid drivetrain, but so far they're 0-2. Either third time's the charm or (looking more likely right now) three strikes and you're out.
So that would make the VOLT not a hybrid right, since it is ALWAYS propelled by an electric motor.
Well after you go 40 miles, the propulsion is electric which is fed by the gas engine. So the ability of the car to move is dependent upon that gas engine. So I guess we're splitting hairs.
Further, that would make the Jeep Wrangler a hybrid since its possible to propel the vehicle using the starter motor, which would be a gasoline electric hyrbid (this is also how the Range Rovers use start stop technology...the starter motor propels the vehicle until the engine starts).
OK, with the Range Rover I'm not familiar with the EU spec. I assumed from your original post that the only technology used was auto start/stop of the engine at rest. If it's more than that then I stand corrected.
My 66 VW beetle and pretty much any stick shift car can be propelled in gear by the starter motor. However that's not a normal propulsion mode (but useful if the clutch cable breaks or cylinder fails :P )
I'm not getting your point. In the Volt, you go less than 40 miles, no gas engine, and no usability problem. You go MORE than 40 miles, gas engine kicks in, and you continue for another 300 miles or so. Run low on gas? Fill 'er up. Still, no usability problem.
"What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm. Taking the point further, if the gas engine is rated for only 100 hp (our estimate of its power output), the 149-hp electric motor will be able to make only 100 hp."
Since the conversion to electricity carries losses, if the conversion is 80% efficient (probably a high estimate), that leaves 80hp to propel the vehicle after 40 miles have been reached. This is a midsized car with a 400lb battery pack. It will have 80hp in this example to propel the car. That's not much power for a heavy midsized car. The realities will be discovered when the car actually becomes real rather than vaporware, but it is very likely to be a slug over 40 miles, once the battery is discharged.
It would have been better if GM could have reacted to gas price jumps with quick aturnaround change to production of small cars. They got caught not ferociously pursuing those new kind of customers when they were taking in a lot of truck and SUV sales dollars. To some, this is cause to ridicule.
"To be fair Toyota didn't set the world on fire with anything revolutionary either...like, say a Sienna Hybrid and release the first hybrid minivan for larger families or something"
While a hybrid minivan sounds like an intriguing idea, the batteries and powertrain would take a considerable space of the passenger cabin which would dilute the very idea of buying a minivan. The minivans seem like a dying breed, and their maximum space efficiency is the only reason why anyone would buy them over a crossover.
What would really break new ground is an electric vehicle powered solely by an electric motor, while a tiny ICE engine operates all the time, only to recharge the battery. Unless I am missing something, this is the ultimate 'dependable' green car.
See, this is where the argument goes awry. Don't concentrate on hp. It's kw that is the factor. When the engine is running, even if it is 1800 rpm, the generator is producing 16kw. The battery pack is also 16kw. I was looking at a C&D article from 2007, and the Prius battery pack is only 1.3kw!!! GM's mild hybrid? 0.6kw.
I can bike 40 miles but I don't think I could do 80, and it would be really ugly in the winter.
I said 40 miles round trip, as in 40 miles total. Taking the bus is possible. But I agree with you, that's to each of his/her own, so let's just leave the public transport out of this.
I think that is a valid point, since there is really no financial benefit to having a Prius. I thought you disagreed with me on that previously.
I see the benefit of buying Insight or Prius over Volt, and I didn't mention Fit as we're comparing hybrids here. But yes, I also see the benefit of buying Fit over Prius, which is why in another thread I made a post a while ago saying I'd rather buy a Fit than a Prius if I have to choose.
So how far does it have to be according to you to make sense? Hmm meets the needs of 80% of the population...
Say 40 miles meets the needs of 80% of the population, I believe you. But does that mean Volt is the answer to that particular group?
Let's do a simple math on fuel costs for roughly 300 days, assuming fuel cost $3/ gallon:
1. A Volt costing $40k, can run on 0 fuel for 40 miles. Fuel costs over 300 days = close to $0
2. A Honda Fit costing $15k, gets 40 mpg, means it needs 1 gallon of fuel/ day = $3. Fuel cost over 300 days = $900, $1000 max.
See the problem here? Even if there's a $7,500 rebate for Volt it'll take decades to recover the price difference.
Plus, remember that Volt's complex technology is much more likely to have higher maintenance costs than Fit's much simpler tech. Even compared to Prius/Insight, Volst is much more complex and will likely to cost more to keep. How does that meet the needs of 80% of the population? Tell me.
You're forgetting the fact that, for the Volt to use 0 gallons during that time, it has to be plugged in somewhere after you get home, and you have to figure in the cost of recharging the batteries on your electric bill. Everyone forgets that part: electricity through the power outlet isn't free.
Well, can you please justify the price differential at your convenience?
Here's a simple explanation on the economics (This compares a gn3Prius vs. Volt):
Hypothetical economic scenario one: six weekly round trips of 35 miles each. In this example, the Volt would never need a drop of gasoline (except for the occasional auto-programmed runs to cycle fuel and oil). If we inflation-adjust today’s electric rates, a recharge will average about one dollar. Annual “fuel” cost: $312.
A Prius would take 220 gallons of gas @ 50mpg to cover the same 11k miles. Assuming $4/gallon in 2011, annual fuel cost is $880. The Volt’s $22k purchase premium over the Prius would take 39 years to amortize. A $40k “subsidized” Volt would take a mere 32 years. These calculations don’t include interest, either on the higher purchase price of the Volt, or on the money saved (opportunity cost).
Even if we slash electric rates in half, to 50 cents a charge, it would still take over thirty years to amortize the Volt’s higher purchase price. Comparing the Volt to the plug-in Prius is even less favorable to the Chevy: it would take 58 years to recoup the Volt’s $14k price differential.
This = NO SALE for the Volt in my value proposition.
...Adding a bit of insult to injury, Pontiac and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have announced the recall of 35,038 G8 sedans for two separate issues. General Motors announced earlier this year that the Pontiac brand would be killed by 2010, with the G8 set to ride off into the sunset by the end of the year.
According to the NHTSA’s Web site, the Pontiac G8 is being recalled for a brake light issue and a potential problem with the vehicle’s tire pressure monitoring system. The recalls cover all G8s from the 2008 and 2009 model years.
Some G8 vehicles may have been equipped with an incorrectly programmed brake pedal position switch from the factory. The defect can lead to the continual illumination of the car’s brake lights, giving other drivers on the road little warning when the vehicle is coming to a stop. Due to the increased risk of crash, Pontiac dealers will begin fixing the problem June 5th.
The G8’s second recall involves the vehicle’s tire pressure monitoring system. Some vehicles were equipped with the wrong programming, which could give false tire pressure readings. As a result, the system may not warn the driver when tire pressures fall below safe levels, potentially leading to deteriorated handling or even a crash.
"See, this is where the argument goes awry. Don't concentrate on hp. It's kw that is the factor. When the engine is running, even if it is 1800 rpm, the generator is producing 16kw. The battery pack is also 16kw. I was looking at a C&D article from 2007, and the Prius battery pack is only 1.3kw!!! GM's mild hybrid? 0.6kw."
Um, you're a little lost in the woods. HP and KW are both units of power (energy delivery rate). 1 HP = .745 KW. This is the energy delivery rate for a gasoline engine or electric motor. Gasoline engines and electric motors deliver power to drive wheels, they do not store it.
Batteries are energy storage devices. They are rated by the amount of energy they store, not the rate at which they deliver the energy. The correct units for batteries is KWH (kilo watt hours). This measures the total energy they store and can deliver over a period of time. A 1.3 KWH battery can deliver about 1.3 KW for 1 hour, or 2.6 KW for 1/2 hour, or 15.6 KW (20.9 HP) for 5 minutes.
Also, 40 miles is honestly no different than what people were doing converting cars with lead-acid batteries back in the 80s. Yes, that's the reality. GM has used 1980s technology here and wrapped it in a cute package to try to fool us.
http://www.evalbum.com/ Tons of people have been DIYing it themselves with better results than GM. We're talking cobbled-together bits and pieces by armchair engineers that get better results than the Volt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV Modern EVs get closer to 100-120 miles per charge as witnessed by the now *decade old* Rav4 EV that Toyota came out with. Current ones are closer to 200 miles.
If GM can't even equal a ten year old Toyota, well, I feel no pity. Get out of the market and let someone with some brains and initiative take over. I guarantee the plants and workers will be snapped up by some other maker who know what they are doing.
Comments
By selling 1 in 4 vehicles world wide until 2 years ago...
picked our pockets of $billions before going under.
And getting confused with the banking industry...
While GM sold a lot of vehicles, they were riding down from 50% market share to 20% market share over 30 years. I'd call that failing to compete.
No argument on the banking industry. But we have given GM billions, too. Don't expect to see it paid back.
Exactly correct. GM's hybrid strategy has been an abject failure and is the icing on a screwed up cake. Whereas Honda, Toyota, and Ford each put out hybrid vehicles that were only a bit more expensive, but priced mainstream to get some actual volume, GM just HAD to follow with not one, not two, but THREE different hybrid approaches, each approach inferior to Toy, Hon, and Ford:
1 - throw a generator that can function as a motor on a few vehicles and call them a hybrid: Malibu, Vue "Green Line" (another hype term covering up for no technology). About 1 mpg improvement. Stupid.
2 - develop a highly complex and expensive two-mode hybrid system and throw it on the big gas guzzlers: Escalade, etc. Adds $10K to cost. Payback is >>10 years. Read the Edmund's review on the driveability of this abomination.
3 - the Volt. Spend a $$billion or so that GM can't afford, to try and leapfrog everybody else technologically. Advertise it for four years in advance of a real product. Problem is it will cost so much that it can never recoup its development costs or sell in any significant volumes. If it ever makes it to market or succeeds technologically.
Another point regarding the Volt. An earlier post said that the Volt is more like the Tesla. Wrong. The Volt is still a HYBRID. Once you've gone 40 miles you are on gasoline power. With a drained battery you can never have more power than that gas engine can give you, you will have less as no energy conversion is 100% efficient. This is basic thermodynamics.
So after 40 miles in your Volt, what happens when you need to climb the mountain pass? You are going to be in low gear in the right lane poking along, because your battery is dead! And that wimpy engine has to charge the battery, and the battery is immediately using all that charge to propel you up the hill! So you have, maximum, the amount of energy that wimpy engine can put out to get you over the hill!
The Volt might be fine if you rarely go over 40 miles before recharging, but it will have serious usability issues for those who drive longer distances and need range. This will further limit its market.
The Tesla makes no bones about it, you go max range on electricity (>200 miles) and it is time to recharge! Not a puny 40 miles like the Volt.
Your definition of hybrid is different than most peoples'. Using your logic the Malibu and Vue hybrids aren't hybrids either, and they are certainly less of a hybrid than the Insight. Hybrids use regenerative braking to charge a battery that helps add power during propulsion. Not a difficult concept. Who cares if the ICE is running if the mileage increases, significantly (vs. dismally like the Vue and Malibu hybrids)?
Please provide a link to the definition of hybrid where the ICE can't always run.
Prius 0-60: 11 seconds
I said practical, not fast.
Hmm a Lexus HS250 probably does...pricing hasn't been release yet...nor has an official price for the Volt.
Uh huh, sure let's compare Volt with something from a class higher than it's own right. And how do you think a $40k Lexus will stack up against a $40k Chevy Volt? Lexus HS will be the better choice, being much more luxurious and all. Plus it's backed with Lexus' red carpet customer service. I'm no Lexus fan but if I have to choose between the 2 the HS will definitely be it.
Like I said, there's not enough savings for the buyers to justify the Volt's price.
In case you forgot, it's you who compared Volt with tesla in the beginning. :P :P :P
Well, there is a very real factor. Let's say you have a Chevy on the one hand, and a Ford on the other. Each one costs the same for the same features (unlikely, I know). The Ford costs you less, because you've ALREADY paid X amount to GM (so have the rest of us) and received nothing in exchange.
I find that so interesting, just as a side note...GM requested bailout bucks for nothing in exchange rather than offering some piled up stock either as collateral or even to sell to the government.
Less than. The Volt operates off of the battery according to the information we've seen, and as you said, some energy is lost in the charging process. That's why current hybrid systems use the engine to power the car, not just charge the battery...to avoid that energy loss. Instead, they take energy that would otherwise be lost (from braking and coasting) and use THAT to charge batteries.
By not allowing the engine to power the car directly, they are actually decreasing efficiency.
By HELEN O'NEILL
(AP) - The auto plants and steel mills, once the lifeblood of Warren, are ghosts of their former selves. Plants lie idle, shifts have been cut, and the huge parking lot outside the Lordstown General Motors factory is nearly empty. The Golden Gate restaurant and Mary M's, fixtures for years, are shuttered. Houses are boarded up. Businesses have given up on downtown.
There is a saying among old-timers in this gritty river town: What recession? We've been stuck in one for 30 years. Yet even stubborn Warren, a town with a dwindling population of about 43,000 in northeast Ohio, is being tested like never before. And folks talk of a hopelessness, a weariness of spirit that is pervading every aspect of life.
"It's like lives are being stripped away whole," says Pam Bennett, 55, a retired high school secretary who volunteers at the Warren Family Mission, where hundreds of people flock every week for food and clothes and shelter. Many are families with small children. Many have lost their jobs. And many are coming in for the first time.
There was a time when jobs - good-paying jobs - were plentiful. People like Bennett's husband, David, marched straight out of high school and into Delphi Packard Electric Systems, once one of the area's largest and best-paying employers. Now the auto parts plant operates with a skeletal crew. After 37 years, Bennett has been told his health benefits will end when he retires, his pension is frozen and he will lose his job if the plant folds this summer.
And so the Bennetts have abandoned their dream of retiring to Myrtle Beach, S.C., and building a small prefabricated house where they hoped to spend sun-filled days after a life of frugality and hard work.
These days Warren is littered with abandoned dreams.
"It's awful, just awful," says Nick Angelo, 73, who raised six children and two grandchildren in what he says was once a vibrant, prosperous community. Now he feels nothing but sadness when he walks past the closed store fronts near the courthouse square.
"I feel sorry for the young people," Angelo says.
Angelo, a retired high school athletic director, vividly recalls a time when things were different, when the town sparkled with vitality and hope. It was in the early 1970s and for four consecutive years the two high school football teams - the Warren Harding Panthers and the Warren Western Reserve Raiders - won state championships. There were parades and lavish pre-game dinners at the Golden Gate and 15,000 cheering fans turned out in support.
There was a glimmer of that former glory this spring when the high school basketball team made it to the state semifinals and several thousand fans drove three hours to Columbus to watch the game.
For a week, it was as if the team held the heart of the town. Bands played at pep rallies, restaurants donated food, and "Go Raiders!" signs bedecked the town.
"People just desperately need some hope to cling to," coach Steve Arnold says. "And for a short time, we were that hope."
Over at the Hoyt Street Church, Pastor Gerald Morgan sees the same thirst for hope. Worshippers are flocking to services in greater numbers, though donations are down. It's always that way in a time of austerity, he says. People turn to the church for solace and for answers they can't find anywhere else.
The 59-year-old minister, who spent 30 years on a General Motors assembly line before becoming a full-time pastor, doesn't have answers. Just a deep, ingrained knowledge of how his people are suffering. And an abiding faith that, no matter how bad things get, they will pull through.
And so he quotes from Genesis, the passage about how the earth returned to life after the devastation of the great flood. And he tells his congregation that Warren too will emerge from this latest chapter of darkness, and someday thrive again.
Well, if that's the case, I wouldn't have a car at all! The cheapest and most practical way for me to get from point A to point B is to walk! I live close enough to work to walk. The local supermarket is within two blocks of me. Same with the local drugstore. There quite a few restaurants and taverns in my vicinity.
Said Asian imports appear to be quite successful and profitable. Maybe this explains why GM and Chrysler are in such deep trouble. While Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc were building cars people wanted, GM and Chrysler were building cars they wanted instead.
Where's Doc Brown's Delorean so I can go back to 1955, break it and stay there? Just think, I'll get to go through the Muscle Car Era I was too young to enjoy the first time through! Hopefully I'll be dead before 2009 comes again.
Maybe, but here's a great philosophical question, heh: Is it GM's fault for not building a product that appeals to customers, or is it the customers' collective faults for not finding GM's products appealing? :shades:
The answer is supposed to be A, but it seems like a lot of people, GM included, think it's supposed to be B.
Perhaps I'll buy some 'vette bodies from the new owners to experiment with some college engineers fresh from graduation this year....nothing else to do!
The storied V-8 is almost gone.
Regards,
OW
The answer is supposed to be A, but it seems like a lot of people, GM included, think it's supposed to be B.
It's always been answer A but twisted by some to B. The B folks, in the majority, refuse to see that the market will always rule. If market share is going down for company A and increasing for company B and C, there is a direct correlation to the products of company A not doing their job.
Can it be more any more simple to understand?
Regards,
OW
1 - throw a generator that can function as a motor on a few vehicles and call them a hybrid: Malibu, Vue "Green Line" (another hype term covering up for no technology). About 1 mpg improvement. Stupid.
This is basically autostart-stop technology, just like the original Civic "hybrid." 0 mph is 0 mpg.
2 - develop a highly complex and expensive two-mode hybrid system and throw it on the big gas guzzlers: Escalade, etc. Adds $10K to cost. Payback is >>10 years.
Yeah, I think they could do better than a 10% increase in fuel economy on a 6000# vehicle.
Another point regarding the Volt. An earlier post said that the Volt is more like the Tesla. Wrong. The Volt is still a HYBRID. Once you've gone 40 miles you are on gasoline power. With a drained battery you can never have more power than that gas engine can give you, you will have less as no energy conversion is 100% efficient.
Right, and since something like 75% of the population live withing 40 miles of where they work, it may never turn on. The gasoline engine powers a generator, so I agree that there are losses in efficiency there, but that is allowing you've depleted the battery.
So after 40 miles in your Volt, what happens when you need to climb the mountain pass? You are going to be in low gear in the right lane poking along, because your battery is dead! And that wimpy engine has to charge the battery, and the battery is immediately using all that charge to propel you up the hill! So you have, maximum, the amount of energy that wimpy engine can put out to get you over the hill!
Right, and with the Tesla, you call AAA and get towed home. That sounds wonderful.
The Volt might be fine if you rarely go over 40 miles before recharging, but it will have serious usability issues for those who drive longer distances and need range. This will further limit its market.
So if it doesn't fit your lifestyle, don't buy one. I don't see why this is so complicated. It sounds like there is one of the biggest logical errors in engineering going on here...assuming everyone else's situation is just like yours.
I agree, Range Rover has auto-start-stop on their European vehicles, I don't think that makes them a hybrid. Just like the 1st generation Civic Hybrid.
Along the same lines, google "Toyota" and Vanilla" and see how many hits you get. Maybe OW is right.
I do understand your feelings on driving a larger more comfortable car. Our society has tried their best to make those of US that consider a vehicle more than just transportation, to feel guilty. I don't see our leaders sacrificing their comfort to save the planet or fossil fuel. I am a little too far from the grocery store to walk, at 2.8 miles. I would be happy with a little car for running errands. When I take a trip even 100 miles up to Los Angeles I want a large comfortable, quiet vehicle. I don't need a $million dollar limo like Barry. The reasons I would like higher mileage is to avoid stopping at a stinking gas station.
For me to drop from a 16 MPG Sequoia to a 20 MPG Escape/RAV4/CRV would be crazy. Going to a slightly smaller X5 diesel that gets 30 MPG on the highway and handles better than most sedans on the highway is a good option. Quite frankly GM and the D3 have NOTHING I would consider buying right now. For those that like big sedans the Buick and Caddy are fine. Just not my cup of tea. I have one, the LS400, and only drive it to see when it will break, so I can get rid of it. No more sedans in my future. Not much good on our 3rd world roads in CA. They are going to continue getting worse as we spend all the gas tax on welfare or something besides road maintenance.
What market segment is the Volt targeted at? Not me or anyone I know. Anyone can buy 2 Honda Civics for that price. Let's get your estimate of the sales rate for this unique nameplate from the failed GM.
Regards,
OW
Sure, there are people who commute only about 40 miles a day, but how many of them are there? GM needs the Volt to sell in large numbers to survive, and trying to lure a tiny cadre of takers isn't gonna help.
Better yet, if you only drive 40 miles a day, why bother spending 40k on a Volt that needs frequent recharging, new battery every 5 years (according to GM itself), and cost $40k? Buy yourself a $15k Honda Fit and keep the change. It's as roomy as a Prius, and I seriously doubt GM can make Volt any roomier than a Prius.
Plus I agree with OW. If you really want to be "green" (or economical, choose whichever you want), then just take the mass transit, 40 miles or less isn't far at all.
I don't think its my mind that is needs opening. In Santa Barbara, my father lives 6 miles from where he works. There is no bus stop there. There is no "high speed rail." From their house to downtown is about 12 miles. Again, no close bus stop, no "metro." The motor in that car would never turn on, even if he went to work AND down town.
In Ann Arbor, my wife is maybe 10 miles from where she works (i think its more like 7 miles). There is no bus service within 3 miles of our house. The majority of our neighborhood has at least 1 member of their household working within 15 minutes of home.
What market segment is the Volt targeted at? Not me or anyone I know.
That might be so, are you jealous or something?
This is where we fundamentally disagree...I think 40 miles on battery only is plenty of range for most commutes in the US. For those times when a family road trip is in order, the on board generator can recharge the battery.
Better yet, if you only drive 40 miles a day, why bother spending 40k on a Volt that needs frequent recharging, new battery every 5 years (according to GM itself), and cost $40k?
So how far does it have to be according to you to make sense? Hmm meets the needs of 80% of the population...
Buy yourself a $15k Honda Fit and keep the change. It's as roomy as a Prius, and I seriously doubt GM can make Volt any roomier than a Prius.
Eh, so you are suggesting to buy a Fit instead of a Prius as well? I think that is a valid point, since there is really no financial benefit to having a Prius. I thought you disagreed with me on that previously.
Plus I agree with OW. If you really want to be "green" (or economical, choose whichever you want), then just take the mass transit, 40 miles or less isn't far at all.
So what huge assumption are you falsely making here...oh that mass transit exists. Can you walk 40 miles? I can bike 40 miles but I don't think I could do 80, and it would be really ugly in the winter.
As I said before, living in a bubble and making decisions on what other people want based on your own personal lifestyle is kind of silly.
That might be so, are you jealous or something?
Nope! Tesla S for me, thank you very much!
Volt is another GM laugher as I speed past the Chevy dealer!
Regards,
OW
The point is that we have a car in the Volt that will have serious usability issues over 40 miles range - much more usability issues than the Prius or Insight or Tesla. The Tesla is very expensive but you get sports car performance and >200mph range. The Prius and Insight you get way more than 200 mile range and they are very affordable. The Volt is expensive and has a very serious usability limitation over 40 miles between charges. Most people these days expect to be able to go at least 200 miles between fillups. So for the Volt, it is going to cost a lot AND have this usability issue. The market will obviously be very small. What smart leader at GM thought there was a good business case for this vehicle?
With GM they've invested beaucoup $$$ on THREE different hybrid technologies, yet they don't even have a vehicle on the market that would be as affordable and usable while gaining substantial economy such as the Prius, Insight, Civic hybrid, Camry hybrid, Escape hybrid, or Fusion hybrid. That's just one example of why GM is such a failure as a business.
You may have a problem in understanding hybrids. Hybrids are "hybrid propulsion" which means that the vehicle is "propelled by more than one technology". That propulsion can be in combination or separately at different times. Auto start-stop is not a hybrid technology. Hybrids can add propulsive energy to the vehicle by some means other than an ICE. It does not mean the ICE needs to shut off. Auto start-stop is just an energy saver while at rest. It doesn't mean propulsion is occurring with any assistance from other than the ICE.
You could have an electric/flywheel hybrid. You could have an ICE/compressed air hybrid. Current hybrids are ICE/electric. You could also have a diesel/electric hybrid.
The Civic hybrid has a modified transmission that has effectively an electric motor built into it, which provides additional propulsion to the vehicle. That's why it is a hybrid and the Range Rover you cite is not.
Maybe you are a little bit special.
So that would make the VOLT not a hybrid right, since it is ALWAYS propelled by an electric motor.
Further, that would make the Jeep Wrangler a hybrid since its possible to propel the vehicle using the starter motor, which would be a gasoline electric hyrbid (this is also how the Range Rovers use start stop technology...the starter motor propels the vehicle until the engine starts).
That's why it is a hybrid and the Range Rover you cite is not.
Contrare monfrare, the Range Rover is powered by an electric motor, as described above, so that would meet your definition of "propelled by more than one technology."
Further, that would make the Jeep Wrangler a hybrid since its possible to propel the vehicle using the starter motor, which would be a gasoline electric hyrbid (this is also how the Range Rovers use start stop technology...the starter motor propels the vehicle until the engine starts).
That's why it is a hybrid and the Range Rover you cite is not.
Contrare monfrare, the Range Rover is powered by an electric motor, as described above, so that would meet your definition of "propelled by more than one technology."
Congratulations. You've just declared the Ford Fiesta to be the first subcompact hybrid to be sold in the US, as it has the auto-stop engine feature. It's powered 100% by the battery while not in motion. :shades: And their implementation costs a LOT less than the implementation on the Vue and Malibu, too.
I'm not getting your point. In the Volt, you go less than 40 miles, no gas engine, and no usability problem. You go MORE than 40 miles, gas engine kicks in, and you continue for another 300 miles or so. Run low on gas? Fill 'er up. Still, no usability problem.
I don't think so. The Fiesta uses a different system, its not based on using the starter. I will have to find the press release.
And their implementation costs a LOT less than the implementation on the Vue and Malibu, too.
This is true. But the technology wasn't available at the time.
It would have been better if GM could have reacted to gas price jumps with quick aturnaround change to production of small cars. They got caught not ferociously pursuing those new kind of customers when they were taking in a lot of truck and SUV sales dollars. To some, this is cause to ridicule.
Throw in bad timing, being the downturn created by the Oil traders and Mortgage sellers and traders, and you have the makings of a ridifest.
It's less of a stretch than calling the Wrangler a hybrid because of the starter motor. Of course, if you really want to stretch things, any car coasting downhill is a hybrid ICE/gravity propulsion. So let's stop the silliness, shall we? The Wrangler isn't a hybrid, it can't go an inch without the ICE motor. The Fiesta isn't a hybrid because it shuts its engine off while idling. The Volt isn't a hybrid, it's an electric car with an on-board generator which can not directly power the vehicle, only charge the battery (which is a completely different drivetrain than a car propelled by both battery and ICE directly).
And the whole Mild Hybrid debacle was an attempt to throw on an idle engine cutoff system onto a car and call it "hybrid." The alternator can theoretically power the car up to 3 mph. That's not saying much since most cars travel 3 mph when idling in neutral with no pressure on the gas pedal. :shades:
This is true. But the technology wasn't available at the time.
Now THAT is silly-sounding, considering the new Malibu came out, what a year ago? Two, max?
It's less of a stretch than calling the Wrangler a hybrid because of the starter motor. Of course, if you really want to stretch things, any car coasting downhill is a hybrid ICE/gravity propulsion. So let's stop the silliness, shall we? The Wrangler isn't a hybrid, it can't go an inch without the ICE motor. The Fiesta isn't a hybrid because it shuts its engine off while idling. The Volt isn't a hybrid, it's an electric car with an on-board generator which can not directly power the vehicle, only charge the battery (which is a completely different drivetrain than a car propelled by both battery and ICE directly).
I'm totally with you on these counts.
Now THAT is silly-sounding, considering the new Malibu came out, what a year ago? Two, max?
I was referring to the Fiesta style auto stop-start. The other thing is 2-3 years ago there wasn't a lot of demand for paying $2500 for a drivetrain when gas was $2/gal. I probably would've worked a bit harder on figuring out how to do that though for the future.
And yest Ford and Honda had to be working on their next-gen hybrid systems for them to be available today, even though gas was $2 a gallon when they started working on them. GM was still throwing money down a hole labeled Volt and trying to con people into thinking there was a hybrid version of the Malibu.
To be fair Toyota didn't set the world on fire with anything revolutionary either...like, say a Sienna Hybrid and release the first hybrid minivan for larger families or something. Something GM also could have tried with a Traverse Hybrid, assuming they had a real, viable, workable hybrid drivetrain, but so far they're 0-2. Either third time's the charm or (looking more likely right now) three strikes and you're out.
Well after you go 40 miles, the propulsion is electric which is fed by the gas engine. So the ability of the car to move is dependent upon that gas engine. So I guess we're splitting hairs.
Further, that would make the Jeep Wrangler a hybrid since its possible to propel the vehicle using the starter motor, which would be a gasoline electric hyrbid (this is also how the Range Rovers use start stop technology...the starter motor propels the vehicle until the engine starts).
OK, with the Range Rover I'm not familiar with the EU spec. I assumed from your original post that the only technology used was auto start/stop of the engine at rest. If it's more than that then I stand corrected.
My 66 VW beetle and pretty much any stick shift car can be propelled in gear by the starter motor. However that's not a normal propulsion mode (but useful if the clutch cable breaks or cylinder fails :P )
"What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm. Taking the point further, if the gas engine is rated for only 100 hp (our estimate of its power output), the 149-hp electric motor will be able to make only 100 hp."
Since the conversion to electricity carries losses, if the conversion is 80% efficient (probably a high estimate), that leaves 80hp to propel the vehicle after 40 miles have been reached. This is a midsized car with a 400lb battery pack. It will have 80hp in this example to propel the car. That's not much power for a heavy midsized car. The realities will be discovered when the car actually becomes real rather than vaporware, but it is very likely to be a slug over 40 miles, once the battery is discharged.
Throw in bad timing,
You are very generous. It was bad strategy.
While a hybrid minivan sounds like an intriguing idea, the batteries and powertrain would take a considerable space of the passenger cabin which would dilute the very idea of buying a minivan. The minivans seem like a dying breed, and their maximum space efficiency is the only reason why anyone would buy them over a crossover.
What would really break new ground is an electric vehicle powered solely by an electric motor, while a tiny ICE engine operates all the time, only to recharge the battery. Unless I am missing something, this is the ultimate 'dependable' green car.
This article should explain it nicely:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/csaba_csere_the_steering_- column/fearless_prediction_plug_in_hybrids_will_be_the_hot_rods_of_the_21st_cent- ury_column
I said 40 miles round trip, as in 40 miles total. Taking the bus is possible. But I agree with you, that's to each of his/her own, so let's just leave the public transport out of this.
I think that is a valid point, since there is really no financial benefit to having a Prius. I thought you disagreed with me on that previously.
I see the benefit of buying Insight or Prius over Volt, and I didn't mention Fit as we're comparing hybrids here. But yes, I also see the benefit of buying Fit over Prius, which is why in another thread I made a post a while ago saying I'd rather buy a Fit than a Prius if I have to choose.
So how far does it have to be according to you to make sense? Hmm meets the needs of 80% of the population...
Say 40 miles meets the needs of 80% of the population, I believe you. But does that mean Volt is the answer to that particular group?
Let's do a simple math on fuel costs for roughly 300 days, assuming fuel cost $3/ gallon:
1. A Volt costing $40k, can run on 0 fuel for 40 miles. Fuel costs over 300 days = close to $0
2. A Honda Fit costing $15k, gets 40 mpg, means it needs 1 gallon of fuel/ day = $3. Fuel cost over 300 days = $900, $1000 max.
See the problem here? Even if there's a $7,500 rebate for Volt it'll take decades to recover the price difference.
Plus, remember that Volt's complex technology is much more likely to have higher maintenance costs than Fit's much simpler tech. Even compared to Prius/Insight, Volst is much more complex and will likely to cost more to keep. How does that meet the needs of 80% of the population? Tell me.
How is it more complex? Battery powers electric motor, engine drives generator to power battery. Very simple.
BTW, not to nitpick, but the Fit is rated at 33 on the highway, and 29 overall, not 40. But point well taken, as it only amounts to $12-1300.
Here's a simple explanation on the economics (This compares a gn3Prius vs. Volt):
Hypothetical economic scenario one: six weekly round trips of 35 miles each. In this example, the Volt would never need a drop of gasoline (except for the occasional auto-programmed runs to cycle fuel and oil). If we inflation-adjust today’s electric rates, a recharge will average about one dollar. Annual “fuel” cost: $312.
A Prius would take 220 gallons of gas @ 50mpg to cover the same 11k miles. Assuming $4/gallon in 2011, annual fuel cost is $880. The Volt’s $22k purchase premium over the Prius would take 39 years to amortize. A $40k “subsidized” Volt would take a mere 32 years. These calculations don’t include interest, either on the higher purchase price of the Volt, or on the money saved (opportunity cost).
Even if we slash electric rates in half, to 50 cents a charge, it would still take over thirty years to amortize the Volt’s higher purchase price. Comparing the Volt to the plug-in Prius is even less favorable to the Chevy: it would take 58 years to recoup the Volt’s $14k price differential.
This = NO SALE for the Volt in my value proposition.
Mr. President, "Are You Listening?"
Regards,
OW
According to the NHTSA’s Web site, the Pontiac G8 is being recalled for a brake light issue and a potential problem with the vehicle’s tire pressure monitoring system. The recalls cover all G8s from the 2008 and 2009 model years.
Some G8 vehicles may have been equipped with an incorrectly programmed brake pedal position switch from the factory. The defect can lead to the continual illumination of the car’s brake lights, giving other drivers on the road little warning when the vehicle is coming to a stop. Due to the increased risk of crash, Pontiac dealers will begin fixing the problem June 5th.
The G8’s second recall involves the vehicle’s tire pressure monitoring system. Some vehicles were equipped with the wrong programming, which could give false tire pressure readings. As a result, the system may not warn the driver when tire pressures fall below safe levels, potentially leading to deteriorated handling or even a crash.
Regards,
OW
Um, you're a little lost in the woods. HP and KW are both units of power (energy delivery rate). 1 HP = .745 KW. This is the energy delivery rate for a gasoline engine or electric motor. Gasoline engines and electric motors deliver power to drive wheels, they do not store it.
Batteries are energy storage devices. They are rated by the amount of energy they store, not the rate at which they deliver the energy. The correct units for batteries is KWH (kilo watt hours). This measures the total energy they store and can deliver over a period of time. A 1.3 KWH battery can deliver about 1.3 KW for 1 hour, or 2.6 KW for 1/2 hour, or 15.6 KW (20.9 HP) for 5 minutes.
http://www.evalbum.com/
Tons of people have been DIYing it themselves with better results than GM. We're talking cobbled-together bits and pieces by armchair engineers that get better results than the Volt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Modern EVs get closer to 100-120 miles per charge as witnessed by the now *decade old* Rav4 EV that Toyota came out with. Current ones are closer to 200 miles.
If GM can't even equal a ten year old Toyota, well, I feel no pity. Get out of the market and let someone with some brains and initiative take over. I guarantee the plants and workers will be snapped up by some other maker who know what they are doing.