But the DIYers don't offer a 60K-mile powertrain warranty and a 100K-mile battery warranty, as the large automakers must in order to compete. That has been the principal obstacle for both GM and for Toyota, what with its work on the PHEV Prius.
The RAV4 EV was a pretty cool project, and I wish they had continued to sell it for more years than they did, but it had about 1500 pounds of batteries in it, at what was then an enormous cost (added about $15K to the MSRP). Toyota has now gotten the battery pack price down to a number comparable to that of a transmission rebuild (or maybe less, current price is $2200) in the current Prius, which of course has no transmission in the traditional sense.
The challenge for GM and Toyota now is to produce the PHEV, or pure EV in GM's case, with a 50-mile all-electric range, using a battery pack that is relatively light, just as durable (don't forget those warranties that consumers will insist on), and in that same $2200 price range.
It's not a small feat to accomplish.......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Everyone forgets that part: electricity through the power outlet isn't free.
Oh, I'm so aware of that (my monthly electric bills alone tops over $200). However I'd like to give Volt a, err, slight advantage first. Guess even with such favor the Volt still doesn't fare well.
Given current technology I really don;t think an EV is the answer. Too much R&D cost, too small the market, 0 chance to make profit, at least for now. Remember the Rav4-EV?
".....Batteries are energy storage devices. They are rated by the amount of energy they store, not the rate at which they deliver the energy. The correct units for batteries is KWH (kilo watt hours). This measures the total energy they store and can deliver over a period of time. A 1.3 KWH battery can deliver about 1.3 KW for 1 hour, or 2.6 KW for 1/2 hour, or 15.6 KW (20.9 HP) for 5 minutes."
While correct, I don't think that the Prius' is set up to run 15.6kw for 5 minutes. The premise was that a Volt wouldn't have power to go uphill running on purely the genset.
If you go back to tlong's post (#6169), he was going on the presumed hp rating of the motor. His comment is:
"What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm."
The fact is that, the genset will be able to produce 16kw. If the engine spins at 1800 or 3600 rpm, it doesn't matter. It will STILL be producing 16kw of energy to power the car and maintain the charge in the battery. Even still, the Volt's battery will never be charged more than 80%, and never left with less than 30%, meaning that it only requires 8kwh to achieve the 40 miles.
The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor.
If that particular statement is true, then the Volt MUST be plugged into a socket to recharge the battery. Sounds like there is no charging using otherwise lost "waste energy" from brake heat, etc. And the engine turns a generator to generate electricity rather than powering the drivetrain directly, which means an extra step where power is lost, though it's true that it doesn't need the complicated hybrid switching/merging and recapture setup of a Prius or Fusion.
So it's much simpler than those models...and yet more expensive? Something smells like a dead fish.
".....If that particular statement is true, then the Volt MUST be plugged into a socket to recharge the battery. "
That is a grey area that I'm not sure of. It WILL maintain the 30% charge and then some, but never recharge the battery till the engine shuts down while driving. It may be able to recharge the car at rest, but I would think that a wall socket would be more cost effective.
".....and yet more expensive?"
Don't forget, it is forraging into that unknown territory of the Lithium Ion battery, as opposed to Lead Acid or Nickel metal hydride. That is the biggest factor at this point. If the Prius battery pack is now $2500, while the Volt's is $16,000, there is the major cost difference between the 2.
you do have to re-charge the 2010 Chevy Volt's battery. 9 hours on a standard socket will do IIRC. The Volt needs to come down in price-it's $40,000 pricetag has me eliminating it from my list completely.
Pure conjecture on your part, 25K and 100MPG equivalent.
Absolutely! But, guess which one will lead sales?
The third-generation 2010 Toyota Prius, officially unveiled at the Detroit auto show in January 2009, goes on sale in April. The updated Prius is bigger and more powerful. The engine grew from 1.5 liters to 1.8 liters—giving a boost in horsepower from 110 to 160, and thereby reducing zero-to-60 time by a full second. In addition, the body is about four inches longer and about an inch wider. Despite the added power and size, the 2010 Toyota Prius becomes the only vehicle available today to offer 50 miles per gallon in combined city/highway driving
Like I said in the original argument, the Volt will be a niche player, not the answer to GM's failed business model. It should have been on it's 4th or 5th generation TODAY so the price would lead in the market, not the other way around!
Don't forget, it is forraging into that unknown territory of the Lithium Ion battery, as opposed to Lead Acid or Nickel metal hydride. That is the biggest factor at this point. If the Prius battery pack is now $2500, while the Volt's is $16,000, there is the major cost difference between the 2.
That's not the only difference...Lithium Ion batteries are hardly unknown: they're in your laptop. They only last two years and are very vulnerable to temperature fluctuation: the hotter they are the faster they degrade. Unless they're doing some sort of cryogenic thing, keeping them in a freezer compartment, then you're looking at a 2 year replacement cycle.
".....Lithium Ion batteries are hardly unknown: they're in your laptop. They only last two years and are very vulnerable to temperature fluctuation: the hotter they are the faster they degrade."
Hence the reason for the long lead-in time. From what I've read, they have been able to keep the temperature stable with some sort of cooling system. Also, by charging them to only 80%, and not allowing them to discharge below 30% helps maintain battery life. I don't know if laptop batteries charge and discharge fully or not, but that could be a factor in their limited life cycle.
".....Like I said in the original argument, the Volt will be a niche player, not the answer to GM's failed business model."
Don't forget, that the Prius makes up far less than 10% of Toyota's sales. That's niche too.
I'm sure GM is banking on the fact that when it comes out, coupled with $4/gal gas, the green beans will drop their Prius for the Volt, not because they want one or need one, just to say they have one. Much like what has happened with the Prius.
Don't forget, that the Prius makes up far less than 10% of Toyota's sales. That's niche too.
Here are the top 5 cars that already meet the 2016 CAFE standard. Note no US nameplates. At 19, the Prius is hardly niche anymore. The Volt won't even be in the top 100 sales rank at the estimated price.
Year Make Model Combined Fuel Economy Sales Rank 2009 Honda Civic 29 5 2009 Toyota Corolla 30 6 2009 Toyota Prius 46 19 2009 Chevrolet Cobalt 30 20 2009 Volkswagen Jetta 33-34 29
"While correct, I don't think that the Prius' is set up to run 15.6kw for 5 minutes. The premise was that a Volt wouldn't have power to go uphill running on purely the genset. "
One of my professors in Engineering School said " Never start your sentence or statement by saying 'I don't think' because it means 'You didn't think". Very true.
My summary of battery storage ratings was only to enlighten you to the idea of Kilo Watt Hours as an electrical storage unit. Batteries have different charge and discharge characteristics which limit their delivery/recharge power characteristics.
Again, to help you understand electrical energy and power details, I would point out that an engine/generator set spinning at 1800 vs 3600 RPM will not put out the same power, ie. KW (kilo watts). The engine's power output can be measured in Horse Power or Kilo Watts, as I have previously explained. This power output is a function of both Torque (ft.lbs.) multiplied by RPM multiplied by a constant (fixed number). Any gasoline engine does not put out a constant Horse Power at all RPMs. GenSets are designed to produce maximum HP and thus maximum KW at at fixed RPM, not a variable RPM.
HP is equal to Torque (ft lbs) times RPM divided by 33,000 ft.lbs/min.
This originated in US Colonial Times when the Englishman James Watt was working with ore mining operations. Groundwater encountered during mining operations had to be pumped out to continue going deeper. Typically large buckets were lowered into the mine shaft via ropes, pulleys and horses. The large wooden buckets were pulled up by the horses and rope to de-water the mine shafts. James Watt invented the steam engine to replace the horses pulling on the rope. He tried to sell his invention by claiming his "steam engine" could replace several horses. Horses needed to be feed, walked, watered and rested. Mr. Watt found that a strong horse could pull (lift) 550 lbs of water up from a mine shaft at a typical rate of 1 foot per second. Thus he established One Horse Power as 550 foot pound per second or 33,000 foot pounds per minute. The rest is history.
Thus HP or KW is a function of both torque and rpm. A gasoline engine does not put out a steady torque at all and any rpm. Thus a genset does not generate a steady and consitant KW at all and any engine rpm. The 16 KW power output you refer to is the Maximum KW output of the genset, not the constant KW output regardless of engine rpm.
Pls get out of the woods....
The Prius battery package, like any other, is limited in it's short term power output, depending on the battery cell chemical characteristics. Lithium-ion batteries have a great ability to recharge quickly (absorb a large amount of current and charge quickly) and deliver a large amount of current and power quickly.
Lead/acid batteries, NiCad and NIMHd batteries are in general bigger and heavier and store less electrical energy per size and weight than Lithium Ion. So far, nothing is really good enough for a pure plug-in electric car.......
".....GenSets are designed to produce maximum HP and thus maximum KW at at fixed RPM, not a variable RPM."
Correct. A genset has the potential to put out maximum kw at a set engine rpm. IIRC the Volt engine is approx 164 hp and 234 lb-ft of torque. I would assume that it would be available at the preset engine rpm of the unit. If the car is only using 25 hp to keep it in motion (lets say at 40 mph on a flat road) then the genset will be providing approx 1.8kw to allow the car to remain in motion, even though the potential is there for far more electricity to be used.
See, this is where the argument goes awry. Don't concentrate on hp. It's kw that is the factor. When the engine is running, even if it is 1800 rpm, the generator is producing 16kw. The battery pack is also 16kw. I was looking at a C&D article from 2007, and the Prius battery pack is only 1.3kw!!! GM's mild hybrid? 0.6kw.
I'm telling you that you will NEVER get more power out of that car than the engine can produce in the same unit of time. When the battery is dead, the engine is ALL THERE IS! With the conversion losses subtracting more energy. It doesn't matter what units are being used.
The premise was that a Volt wouldn't have power to go uphill running on purely the genset.
The premise is that once the battery is discharged at about 40 miles, you have less than the engine horspower (due to charging losses) at your disposal for all driving until you get some regenerative braking or idling. So if you are climbing a mountain pass you are propelling a midsized car with a 400lb battery pack up a hill with an 80hp engine (after losses). How well do you think that will perform?
If you go back to tlong's post (#6169), he was going on the presumed hp rating of the motor. His comment is:
"What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm."
That quote was from Car and Driver, not my own words.
The fact is that, the genset will be able to produce 16kw. If the engine spins at 1800 or 3600 rpm, it doesn't matter. It will STILL be producing 16kw of energy to power the car and maintain the charge in the battery. Even still, the Volt's battery will never be charged more than 80%, and never left with less than 30%, meaning that it only requires 8kwh to achieve the 40 miles.
You are still confused. I'll try one more time and then we can just wait until and if the Volt makes it to market and see, ok?
FORGET THE UNITS OF HP AND KW AND KWH. Use some logic. You don't create energy from nothing. When the battery is discharged, then ENTIRE SOURCE OF POWER for the car is the gas engine. That power is converted to electricity, with efficiency losses, to propel the car. If you are demanding a high power setting you are NEVER going to get more energy than that engine can produce, minus the conversion losses. If the engine has power X and the conversion losses are 20%, then the power to the wheels is going to be a MAXIMUM of 0.8X. You will have LESS POWER than if you had the same car with the same engine and without the electric/hybrid charging system! And I'm saying (as is Car and Driver above) that the engine power on the Volt is very low for a car of that weight.
IIRC Lutz said the Li-ion battery pack costs $16,000. The Prius, is at, what $2500 for nickel metal-hydride?
So, there is your cost difference right now.
Ok, sure. But how does that justify the asking price? "The battery cost $16k for our Volt so you have to pay this much"? Do you really think the public will care whether the battery's Li or Ni? I doubt it, they'll go for the cheaper one.
Plus, the same Lutz said that volt's battery is likely to need replacement AT LEAST every 5 years, assuming normal use and frequent care. How's that for long term costs?
Plus, the same Lutz said that volt's battery is likely to need replacement AT LEAST every 5 years, assuming normal use and frequent care. How's that for long term costs?
The battery cost $16k for our Volt
Begs the question - who would buy a 5-year old pre-driven/used Volt with the original battery pack?
Plus, the same Lutz said that volt's battery is likely to need replacement AT LEAST every 5 years, assuming normal use and frequent care. How's that for long term costs?
Maybe the whole idea is to get them to buy a new car after 5 years instead.
GM's new sustainable business model: disposable cars, yours for only $40k.
IIRC Lutz said the Li-ion battery pack costs $16,000. The Prius, is at, what $2500 for nickel metal-hydride?
So, there is your cost difference right now.
If the Prius was a plug in hybrid with a 16KWH NiMH battery it would be about 900 lbs and a lot more than $2500. The NiMH replacement battery in the RAV4 EV is about $20,000. The after market Plug in kits for the Prius are expensive. The 10 mile battery only is over $10k plus installation. You are not going to get a Prius Plug in hybrid that will go 40 miles on battery power for less than $40k. Could be why Toyota has not offered one. The Volt will be for those that have to have the latest. Nothing economical about it. The worst part is the bulk of the money is going to Korea for the batteries. I will be surprised if much of the Volt, if it materializes, will be built in the USA. Expect the main components to be made offshore.
How many kilowatts does it require to pull this Volt up a mountain grade? It surely doesn't require 16 Kw. Therefore the ICE would be provided power to recharge the battery even on a long upslope?
I would hope it charges the battery. Unless it just runs the motor after you have depleted the battery. In which case If you drive cross country for 40 miles then head into the mountains you are going to be creeping up the hills. As was pointed out, 80 HP is not adequate to pull a heavy car up long grades. Especially when you factor in the loss of generation to the electric motor. All moot if GM liquidates. If there is any good technology someone will buy it for 10 cents on the dollar.
Unlike traditional electric cars, Chevy Volt has a revolutionary propulsion system that takes you beyond the power of the battery. It will use a lithium-ion battery with a gasoline-powered, range-extending engine that drives a generator to provide electric power when you drive beyond the 40-mile battery range.
That thing you quoted is the part that scares me. If the engine only generates electricity, it means one of two things:
A - The engine provides electrical power in place of the battery after it dies. The engine drives a generator, which drives an electric motor. While this might work fine on trains, I question the utility in a compact car that neither has miles and miles to build up speed nor needs thousands of foot-pounds of torque at 0 RPM. It's also less than 80 HP, as there will be some power loss from driving the generator.
B: - The engine provides electrical power to the battery after it dies. This means power is lost not only in electrical generation but also in the charging process, which is why diesel-electric trains don't use batteries.
Then we get into the whole thing where I don't think the thing uses any energy-recapture technology like regenerative braking or using coasting to turn a generator. One of the appeals of true (meaning non-GM) hybrids is the recapture and use of those units of energy which would otherwise be wasted. That's actually the true value of hybrids, and why real ones do so well...they actually make use of much more of the energy potential stored in the gasoline by recapturing energy that is lost in other vehicles.
GM isn't trying to boost efficiency. Seems like they never have been. Hopefully they HAVE managed to come up with better Lithium Ion technology, maybe to extend the life of the cells. That will have impacts across a wide range of industries.
That's actually the true value of hybrids, and why real ones do so well...they actually make use of much more of the energy potential stored in the gasoline by recapturing energy that is lost in other vehicles.
It plays on the reality of what goes up must come down. So recapturing energy on the downhill side makes sense. Not sure any car with a big repair after 5 years has ANY value to a wise shopper. At this time the only domestic car with any real potential for high mileage is the Fusion Hybrid. GM is a joke when it comes to hybrid technology.
16 kilowatts is about 21 hp. A normal 2.4 liter 4 cylinder gas engine (honda for example) generates 166 -190 hp today. How much of a hill do you think 21 hp in a 4-5 passenger car will climb?
You bring up another good point. I would imagine that 40 mile range is flat ground at 55 MPH. Start up a long hill and it could drop to 20 miles or even less. More questions about the Volt than answers. Same for any EV.
The Tesla Roadster does much better at a claimed 200+ miles per charge. However, it is a tiny 2 passenger car with all other available space taken up with batteries, and it costs $100K+....
The limit is still battery technology. Too big, too heavy, not enough capacity, too long to recharge, too expensive.
By comparison, a typical gallon of gasoline contains about 32 KWH of energy, weighs about 7 lbs and occupies 231 cubic inches of space (about 6"x6"x6.5") and costs $2.20. A 20 gallon tank therefor has an energy capacity of about 640 KWH. How big would an EV's battery have to be to come close to those numbers, using today's battery technology?
Saudi oil minister said today that if it weren't for the darn recession, they were hoping for a spike to $200 oil this summer. They said the $200 spike has been delayed till the recovery or 2-3 years at most.
This is why energy independence and using less dino-based gasoline is a national security issue.
Of course, that could also mean that GM, in trying to deceive the American people into thinking they have a workable hybrid system, is guilty of giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Heh. :shades:
".....Ok, sure. But how does that justify the asking price? "The battery cost $16k for our Volt so you have to pay this much"? Do you really think the public will care whether the battery's Li or Ni? I doubt it, they'll go for the cheaper one."
They may go for the cheaper one, but enough will bite on the fact that uses no gas for 40 miles. The asking price of $40k, minus the $13,500 battery price difference puts it in the Prius' ballpark of $22-26K.
".....Plus, the same Lutz said that volt's battery is likely to need replacement AT LEAST every 5 years, assuming normal use and frequent care. How's that for long term costs?"
Only time will tell. That is what they were saying about the Prius 10 years ago. Fortunately for the owners, that never panned out. Battery prices were over $5000 back then, and have been cut in half. So what will really matter is what the price is in 5 years (6 really).
".....Then we get into the whole thing where I don't think the thing uses any energy-recapture technology like regenerative braking or using coasting to turn a generator."
Generator - 53 kw (equivalent to about 71 hp, so driving it with a 80 hp gas engine is not too far off
Batteries - 16 kwh
So you can see that providing electric power from a 16 kwh battery to a 100 kw motor doesn't give you much drive time. Thus the range of 40 miles, if you don't keep your foot to the floor. At 30 miles per hour, that's only an hour and twenty minutes of driving.
At best, these numbers show that the 53 kw generator can run the 100 kw electric drive motor at about 50% power. But then how far could you go with only 6 gallons of gas? I guess you would need to drive at or under 55 mph and avoid hills...
"..... It clearly states the Volt is driven by a 160 hp ELECTRIC motor, not gas engine. "
Ahhh. My faux pas. But, am I correct that the motor produces this at 0 rpm?
This is from the Gm-Volt Q&A:
"Q: Since the gas engine connects to the wheels only through electricity, doesn’t this waste energy?
A: First, the idea of the Volt is not to use gas that much. More than 80% of the U.S. population drives 40 miles or less. But to answer the question, there are several reasons why the indirect connection of series hybrid works efficiently.
1) Transmission Losses: Electric motors have high power and torque across a wide range of RPMs, so there is no transmission required in a series hybrid. This eliminates transmission losses.
2) Gas Engine Efficiency: The series hybrid allows for a much more efficient ICE design. This is because:
- When you step on the “gas”, the electric motor provides all the peak horsepower. The gas engine only has to deliver average horsepower, which is 1/3 to 1/2 of peak."
Sorry cooterbfd, but your knowledge of power, horse power, kw, kwh is far too limited to carry on a discussion.
To answer your question "Ahhh. My faux pas. But, am I correct that the motor produces this at 0 rpm? "
No. A motor/engine which is at zero rpm produces no horse power. An electric motor does produce maximum TORQUE (shaft turning force) at just off ZERO rpm, but hp is a combination of rpm plus torque. No rpm, no hp.
If you faux pas by not even correctly reading an article about cars, how/why would anyone continue to carry on a discussion with you?
- When you step on the “gas”, the electric motor provides all the peak horsepower. The gas engine only has to deliver average horsepower, which is 1/3 to 1/2 of peak."
So in reading a bit more, this is actually a pretty clever idea. The one case where the engine would be deficient is if you have a sustained high demand (such as climbing the mountain pass) where the average load is near peak requirements. In this case the car is going to be weak (we're assuming the battery is discharged). If you are alternately adding acceleration and then braking or slowing down, then during those periods the battery is gaining some charge.
Of course this means that when you let up on the pedal as you crest a hill, the gas engine begins charging the battery and it would be running at near maximum power output since the battery is very low. So you would be hearing the gas engine revving at max power even though you are coasting down hill. So while in that situation you may have adequate power, I'd suspect that you are going to have a high revving noisy engine at odd times, since the engine may be working to charge the battery at times you are not actually pressing the gas pedal down much, or at all. Not necessarily bad, but unusual relative to typical gas powered car.
".....No. A motor/engine which is at zero rpm produces no horse power. An electric motor does produce maximum TORQUE (shaft turning force) at just off ZERO rpm, but hp is a combination of rpm plus torque. No rpm, no hp."
So if the motor is capable of max torque at just off zero, then it will have that power to turn the motor fast enough to create the hp right from the get go. I think you answered your own question as to whether or not the Volt will be able to make uphill climbs.
Comments
The RAV4 EV was a pretty cool project, and I wish they had continued to sell it for more years than they did, but it had about 1500 pounds of batteries in it, at what was then an enormous cost (added about $15K to the MSRP). Toyota has now gotten the battery pack price down to a number comparable to that of a transmission rebuild (or maybe less, current price is $2200) in the current Prius, which of course has no transmission in the traditional sense.
The challenge for GM and Toyota now is to produce the PHEV, or pure EV in GM's case, with a 50-mile all-electric range, using a battery pack that is relatively light, just as durable (don't forget those warranties that consumers will insist on), and in that same $2200 price range.
It's not a small feat to accomplish.......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Oh, I'm so aware of that (my monthly electric bills alone tops over $200). However I'd like to give Volt a, err, slight advantage first. Guess even with such favor the Volt still doesn't fare well.
Given current technology I really don;t think an EV is the answer. Too much R&D cost, too small the market, 0 chance to make profit, at least for now. Remember the Rav4-EV?
I'm sensing EV1 deja vu all over again.
While correct, I don't think that the Prius' is set up to run 15.6kw for 5 minutes. The premise was that a Volt wouldn't have power to go uphill running on purely the genset.
If you go back to tlong's post (#6169), he was going on the presumed hp rating of the motor. His comment is:
"What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm."
The fact is that, the genset will be able to produce 16kw. If the engine spins at 1800 or 3600 rpm, it doesn't matter. It will STILL be producing 16kw of energy to power the car and maintain the charge in the battery. Even still, the Volt's battery will never be charged more than 80%, and never left with less than 30%, meaning that it only requires 8kwh to achieve the 40 miles.
If that particular statement is true, then the Volt MUST be plugged into a socket to recharge the battery. Sounds like there is no charging using otherwise lost "waste energy" from brake heat, etc. And the engine turns a generator to generate electricity rather than powering the drivetrain directly, which means an extra step where power is lost, though it's true that it doesn't need the complicated hybrid switching/merging and recapture setup of a Prius or Fusion.
So it's much simpler than those models...and yet more expensive? Something smells like a dead fish.
That is a grey area that I'm not sure of. It WILL maintain the 30% charge and then some, but never recharge the battery till the engine shuts down while driving. It may be able to recharge the car at rest, but I would think that a wall socket would be more cost effective.
".....and yet more expensive?"
Don't forget, it is forraging into that unknown territory of the Lithium Ion battery, as opposed to Lead Acid or Nickel metal hydride. That is the biggest factor at this point. If the Prius battery pack is now $2500, while the Volt's is $16,000, there is the major cost difference between the 2.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/02/toyota-prius-plug-in-tops-65-mpg/
Pure conjecture on your part, 25K and 100MPG equivalent.
IIRC Lutz said the Li-ion battery pack costs $16,000. The Prius, is at, what $2500 for nickel metal-hydride?
So, there is your cost difference right now.
Absolutely! But, guess which one will lead sales?
The third-generation 2010 Toyota Prius, officially unveiled at the Detroit auto show in January 2009, goes on sale in April. The updated Prius is bigger and more powerful. The engine grew from 1.5 liters to 1.8 liters—giving a boost in horsepower from 110 to 160, and thereby reducing zero-to-60 time by a full second. In addition, the body is about four inches longer and about an inch wider. Despite the added power and size, the 2010 Toyota Prius becomes the only vehicle available today to offer 50 miles per gallon in combined city/highway driving
Like I said in the original argument, the Volt will be a niche player, not the answer to GM's failed business model. It should have been on it's 4th or 5th generation TODAY so the price would lead in the market, not the other way around!
Regards,
OW
That's not the only difference...Lithium Ion batteries are hardly unknown: they're in your laptop. They only last two years and are very vulnerable to temperature fluctuation: the hotter they are the faster they degrade. Unless they're doing some sort of cryogenic thing, keeping them in a freezer compartment, then you're looking at a 2 year replacement cycle.
Hence the reason for the long lead-in time. From what I've read, they have been able to keep the temperature stable with some sort of cooling system. Also, by charging them to only 80%, and not allowing them to discharge below 30% helps maintain battery life. I don't know if laptop batteries charge and discharge fully or not, but that could be a factor in their limited life cycle.
Don't forget, that the Prius makes up far less than 10% of Toyota's sales. That's niche too.
I'm sure GM is banking on the fact that when it comes out, coupled with $4/gal gas, the green beans will drop their Prius for the Volt, not because they want one or need one, just to say they have one. Much like what has happened with the Prius.
Here are the top 5 cars that already meet the 2016 CAFE standard. Note no US nameplates. At 19, the Prius is hardly niche anymore. The Volt won't even be in the top 100 sales rank at the estimated price.
Year Make Model Combined Fuel Economy Sales Rank
2009 Honda Civic 29 5
2009 Toyota Corolla 30 6
2009 Toyota Prius 46 19
2009 Chevrolet Cobalt 30 20
2009 Volkswagen Jetta 33-34 29
I doubt Prius will EVER loose sales to the Volt.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
One of my professors in Engineering School said " Never start your sentence or statement by saying 'I don't think' because it means 'You didn't think". Very true.
My summary of battery storage ratings was only to enlighten you to the idea of Kilo Watt Hours as an electrical storage unit. Batteries have different charge and discharge characteristics which limit their delivery/recharge power characteristics.
Again, to help you understand electrical energy and power details, I would point out that an engine/generator set spinning at 1800 vs 3600 RPM will not put out the same power, ie. KW (kilo watts). The engine's power output can be measured in Horse Power or Kilo Watts, as I have previously explained. This power output is a function of both Torque (ft.lbs.) multiplied by RPM multiplied by a constant (fixed number). Any gasoline engine does not put out a constant Horse Power at all RPMs. GenSets are designed to produce maximum HP and thus maximum KW at at fixed RPM, not a variable RPM.
HP is equal to Torque (ft lbs) times RPM divided by 33,000 ft.lbs/min.
This originated in US Colonial Times when the Englishman James Watt was working with ore mining operations. Groundwater encountered during mining operations had to be pumped out to continue going deeper. Typically large buckets were lowered into the mine shaft via ropes, pulleys and horses. The large wooden buckets were pulled up by the horses and rope to de-water the mine shafts. James Watt invented the steam engine to replace the horses pulling on the rope. He tried to sell his invention by claiming his "steam engine" could replace several horses. Horses needed to be feed, walked, watered and rested. Mr. Watt found that a strong horse could pull (lift) 550 lbs of water up from a mine shaft at a typical rate of 1 foot per second. Thus he established One Horse Power as 550 foot pound per second or 33,000 foot pounds per minute. The rest is history.
Thus HP or KW is a function of both torque and rpm. A gasoline engine does not put out a steady torque at all and any rpm. Thus a genset does not generate a steady and consitant KW at all and any engine rpm. The 16 KW power output you refer to is the Maximum KW output of the genset, not the constant KW output regardless of engine rpm.
Pls get out of the woods....
The Prius battery package, like any other, is limited in it's short term power output, depending on the battery cell chemical characteristics. Lithium-ion batteries have a great ability to recharge quickly (absorb a large amount of current and charge quickly) and deliver a large amount of current and power quickly.
Lead/acid batteries, NiCad and NIMHd batteries are in general bigger and heavier and store less electrical energy per size and weight than Lithium Ion. So far, nothing is really good enough for a pure plug-in electric car.......
Correct. A genset has the potential to put out maximum kw at a set engine rpm. IIRC the Volt engine is approx 164 hp and 234 lb-ft of torque. I would assume that it would be available at the preset engine rpm of the unit. If the car is only using 25 hp to keep it in motion (lets say at 40 mph on a flat road) then the genset will be providing approx 1.8kw to allow the car to remain in motion, even though the potential is there for far more electricity to be used.
I'm telling you that you will NEVER get more power out of that car than the engine can produce in the same unit of time. When the battery is dead, the engine is ALL THERE IS! With the conversion losses subtracting more energy. It doesn't matter what units are being used.
The premise is that once the battery is discharged at about 40 miles, you have less than the engine horspower (due to charging losses) at your disposal for all driving until you get some regenerative braking or idling. So if you are climbing a mountain pass you are propelling a midsized car with a 400lb battery pack up a hill with an 80hp engine (after losses). How well do you think that will perform?
If you go back to tlong's post (#6169), he was going on the presumed hp rating of the motor. His comment is:
"What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm."
That quote was from Car and Driver, not my own words.
The fact is that, the genset will be able to produce 16kw. If the engine spins at 1800 or 3600 rpm, it doesn't matter. It will STILL be producing 16kw of energy to power the car and maintain the charge in the battery. Even still, the Volt's battery will never be charged more than 80%, and never left with less than 30%, meaning that it only requires 8kwh to achieve the 40 miles.
You are still confused. I'll try one more time and then we can just wait until and if the Volt makes it to market and see, ok?
FORGET THE UNITS OF HP AND KW AND KWH. Use some logic. You don't create energy from nothing. When the battery is discharged, then ENTIRE SOURCE OF POWER for the car is the gas engine. That power is converted to electricity, with efficiency losses, to propel the car. If you are demanding a high power setting you are NEVER going to get more energy than that engine can produce, minus the conversion losses. If the engine has power X and the conversion losses are 20%, then the power to the wheels is going to be a MAXIMUM of 0.8X. You will have LESS POWER than if you had the same car with the same engine and without the electric/hybrid charging system! And I'm saying (as is Car and Driver above) that the engine power on the Volt is very low for a car of that weight.
So, there is your cost difference right now.
Ok, sure. But how does that justify the asking price? "The battery cost $16k for our Volt so you have to pay this much"? Do you really think the public will care whether the battery's Li or Ni? I doubt it, they'll go for the cheaper one.
Plus, the same Lutz said that volt's battery is likely to need replacement AT LEAST every 5 years, assuming normal use and frequent care. How's that for long term costs?
The battery cost $16k for our Volt
Begs the question - who would buy a 5-year old pre-driven/used Volt with the original battery pack?
Maybe the whole idea is to get them to buy a new car after 5 years instead.
GM's new sustainable business model: disposable cars, yours for only $40k.
So, there is your cost difference right now.
If the Prius was a plug in hybrid with a 16KWH NiMH battery it would be about 900 lbs and a lot more than $2500. The NiMH replacement battery in the RAV4 EV is about $20,000. The after market Plug in kits for the Prius are expensive. The 10 mile battery only is over $10k plus installation. You are not going to get a Prius Plug in hybrid that will go 40 miles on battery power for less than $40k. Could be why Toyota has not offered one. The Volt will be for those that have to have the latest. Nothing economical about it. The worst part is the bulk of the money is going to Korea for the batteries. I will be surprised if much of the Volt, if it materializes, will be built in the USA. Expect the main components to be made offshore.
With the tax payers picking up $7500 of the tab. :sick:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Unlike traditional electric cars, Chevy Volt has a revolutionary propulsion system that takes you beyond the power of the battery. It will use a lithium-ion battery with a gasoline-powered, range-extending engine that drives a generator to provide electric power when you drive beyond the 40-mile battery range.
A - The engine provides electrical power in place of the battery after it dies. The engine drives a generator, which drives an electric motor. While this might work fine on trains, I question the utility in a compact car that neither has miles and miles to build up speed nor needs thousands of foot-pounds of torque at 0 RPM. It's also less than 80 HP, as there will be some power loss from driving the generator.
B: - The engine provides electrical power to the battery after it dies. This means power is lost not only in electrical generation but also in the charging process, which is why diesel-electric trains don't use batteries.
Then we get into the whole thing where I don't think the thing uses any energy-recapture technology like regenerative braking or using coasting to turn a generator. One of the appeals of true (meaning non-GM) hybrids is the recapture and use of those units of energy which would otherwise be wasted. That's actually the true value of hybrids, and why real ones do so well...they actually make use of much more of the energy potential stored in the gasoline by recapturing energy that is lost in other vehicles.
GM isn't trying to boost efficiency. Seems like they never have been. Hopefully they HAVE managed to come up with better Lithium Ion technology, maybe to extend the life of the cells. That will have impacts across a wide range of industries.
It was right from the mouth.
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/fuel/electric.do
That's actually the true value of hybrids, and why real ones do so well...they actually make use of much more of the energy potential stored in the gasoline by recapturing energy that is lost in other vehicles.
It plays on the reality of what goes up must come down. So recapturing energy on the downhill side makes sense. Not sure any car with a big repair after 5 years has ANY value to a wise shopper. At this time the only domestic car with any real potential for high mileage is the Fusion Hybrid. GM is a joke when it comes to hybrid technology.
The limit is still battery technology. Too big, too heavy, not enough capacity, too long to recharge, too expensive.
By comparison, a typical gallon of gasoline contains about 32 KWH of energy, weighs about 7 lbs and occupies 231 cubic inches of space (about 6"x6"x6.5") and costs $2.20. A 20 gallon tank therefor has an energy capacity of about 640 KWH. How big would an EV's battery have to be to come close to those numbers, using today's battery technology?
I thought $200 oil creates a recession.
Oh, the poor babies. Almost makes ya wanna shed a tear for them (not).
Of course, that could also mean that GM, in trying to deceive the American people into thinking they have a workable hybrid system, is guilty of giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Heh. :shades:
They may go for the cheaper one, but enough will bite on the fact that uses no gas for 40 miles. The asking price of $40k, minus the $13,500 battery price difference puts it in the Prius' ballpark of $22-26K.
".....Plus, the same Lutz said that volt's battery is likely to need replacement AT LEAST every 5 years, assuming normal use and frequent care. How's that for long term costs?"
Only time will tell. That is what they were saying about the Prius 10 years ago. Fortunately for the owners, that never panned out. Battery prices were over $5000 back then, and have been cut in half. So what will really matter is what the price is in 5 years (6 really).
The Volt does have regen braking.
That was the number I read for the ELECTRIC motor. Is that the hp of the gas engine? Is there a link to this?
But others have said it's not on the Volt.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/csaba_csere_the_steering_- column/fearless_prediction_plug_in_hybrids_will_be_the_hot_rods_of_the_21st_cent- ury_column
Here is another link for q&a:
http://gm-volt.com/2007/10/16/help-us-make-a-chevy-volt-faq/
Drive Motor - electric- 100 kw (about 134 hp)
Gasoline Engine - 1.4 liter - about 80 hp
Gas Tank - 6 gallon
Generator - 53 kw (equivalent to about 71 hp, so driving it with a
80 hp gas engine is not too far off
Batteries - 16 kwh
So you can see that providing electric power from a 16 kwh battery to a 100 kw motor doesn't give you much drive time. Thus the range of 40 miles, if you don't keep your foot to the floor. At 30 miles per hour, that's only an hour and twenty minutes of driving.
At best, these numbers show that the 53 kw generator can run the 100 kw electric drive motor at about 50% power. But then how far could you go with only 6 gallons of gas? I guess you would need to drive at or under 55 mph and avoid hills...
These numbers don't look that promising.
Ahhh. My faux pas. But, am I correct that the motor produces this at 0 rpm?
This is from the Gm-Volt Q&A:
"Q: Since the gas engine connects to the wheels only through electricity, doesn’t this waste energy?
A: First, the idea of the Volt is not to use gas that much. More than 80% of the U.S. population drives 40 miles or less. But to answer the question, there are several reasons why the indirect connection of series hybrid works efficiently.
1) Transmission Losses: Electric motors have high power and torque across a wide range of RPMs, so there is no transmission required in a series hybrid. This eliminates transmission losses.
2) Gas Engine Efficiency: The series hybrid allows for a much more efficient ICE design. This is because:
- When you step on the “gas”, the electric motor provides all the peak horsepower. The gas engine only has to deliver average horsepower, which is 1/3 to 1/2 of peak."
To answer your question "Ahhh. My faux pas. But, am I correct that the motor produces this at 0 rpm? "
No. A motor/engine which is at zero rpm produces no horse power. An electric motor does produce maximum TORQUE (shaft turning force) at just off ZERO rpm, but hp is a combination of rpm plus torque. No rpm, no hp.
If you faux pas by not even correctly reading an article about cars, how/why would anyone continue to carry on a discussion with you?
I hope so. These discussions only prove you have a key board...
So in reading a bit more, this is actually a pretty clever idea. The one case where the engine would be deficient is if you have a sustained high demand (such as climbing the mountain pass) where the average load is near peak requirements. In this case the car is going to be weak (we're assuming the battery is discharged). If you are alternately adding acceleration and then braking or slowing down, then during those periods the battery is gaining some charge.
Of course this means that when you let up on the pedal as you crest a hill, the gas engine begins charging the battery and it would be running at near maximum power output since the battery is very low. So you would be hearing the gas engine revving at max power even though you are coasting down hill. So while in that situation you may have adequate power, I'd suspect that you are going to have a high revving noisy engine at odd times, since the engine may be working to charge the battery at times you are not actually pressing the gas pedal down much, or at all. Not necessarily bad, but unusual relative to typical gas powered car.
So if the motor is capable of max torque at just off zero, then it will have that power to turn the motor fast enough to create the hp right from the get go. I think you answered your own question as to whether or not the Volt will be able to make uphill climbs.