I'd rather develop a midsize (3-4 liter) diesel for the BOF truck/Suv so I could retain towing capacity while offering good fuel economy.
Exactly my view. The Yukon hybrid gives up 2400 lbs of towing capacity for ONE MPG gain on the highway, over the non hybrid Yukon. You pay an extra $10,000 for the ONE MPG out on the road. We are headed backwards and GM did not help with their ineptness at satisfying the consumers. How hard can it be to build a 1/2 ton PU with a 3.0L diesel engine? It is easy to get 400 ft lbs of torque out of that size diesel. The 3.0L 6 cylinder diesel from BMW has more torque at a lower RPM than the Escalade 6.2L V8. What's not to like about that engine. I can tell you it would blow the socks off GM V8 gassers out on the road. And get a lot better mileage in the process.
At $40K, $32K, whatever, this vehicle should not be a CHEVROLET!!! Call it a Buick Volt at least!!! I wouldn't pay $40K or even $32K for a Chevrolet unless it's a Corvette! Good God, if a Prius was $40K wouldn't it at least be a Lexus Prius?
For CAFE purposes it does. With a stick, the Jetta Diesel's raw, unadjusted numbers 38.6 city, 58.1 highway. The combined number, which they use for CAFE averaging, is 45.467.
The EPA window sticker, however, reads 30 city, 41 highway, 34 combined.
When asked about pricing, he replied: "Our best estimate is right around $40,000 [and after a government rebate of about $7,500], the customer is looking at 32 and 1/2."
When the heck will we taxpayers get to stop bailing out GM. Do not agree with $7,500 rebate. Perhaps $500-$1000 might be acceptable - think that Prius had some kind of US govt rebate, but nowhere near $7,500.
Let GM price the Volt to cover their costs plus reasonable profit and then see what happens in the market. Car buyers will be able to choose between Prius, Ford Fusion and Insight as well as Volt. Let them decide.
Insofar as energy self-sufficiency, would make much more sense for taxpayers to have had supported clean nuclear if we had even had DC leadership on this over the last 3 decades. US woefully behind in using nuclear compared to, of all countries, France.
Three Mile Island had a lot to do with why we pretty much abandoned nuclear.
Believe that technology and safeguards have advanced since then. Check out what French are doing. 3-mile was contained, not much went into the air, and Philly is still around. Was really amazing that China Syndrome movie with SuperStar Jane Fonda started showing within maybe a week of 3-mile. Don't remember which came first though - 3-mile or the movie.
see where being greener falls out. Does it make the top 20? then think about where the gov ranks it. is it higher up on their list?
thinking about buying a $16k very small car. for $5-7k more it could be greener, maybe hybrid. for another $5k it could be a diesel. And for $7.5k more than that, it won't even use gas or diesel. What did honda do to get to a no gas car? They leased hydrogen cars costing hundreds of thousands each to hollywood stars.
This is why I largely avoid Wal~Mart. If Wal~Mart had GOOD QUALITY merchandise at low prices, I would shop there.
Not everything at Wal-Mart is low quality, although I'd have to agree a majority (maybe 51%) of their products are low quality.
But Doritos chips and Breyer's Ice Cream taste the same whether I buy them at Wal-Mart for $2.50 a pop or at a grocery store gouging me for $4.50 for the same thing.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
We didn't exactly abandon nuclear - we have twice as many nuke plants as France. We have a bigger population of course. Even if you overlook the poison factor, nukes are too expensive to make a lot of economic sense. (Idaho Power Idaho Power annual meeting). And you know as soon as someone puts a new one online, another TMI incident will happen and set the industry back another 30 years.
I'm trying to think of a topical analogy to get back to GM News - like, investing in nukes is like dumping Aveos in favor of doubling HUMMER production. It may look good on paper and it'll attract a few buyers, but most people won't like the True Cost to Own.
Maybe someone can post some of the debacles from foreign brand manufacturers. I can't believe only GM has a history of problems.
If you look at a comparison of how many billions and billions of dollars in losses GM's mistakes have cost American Tax payers, vs. how many billions of dollars in losses Toyota and Honda's mistakes have cost Tax payers, that will answer your question as to why GM's history of blunders is discussed at greater length than any other car company (other than maybe Chrysler).
I can help you out here, the figure for foreign car companies is $0.00 for American Taxpayers. No foreign car company blunder has cost any American any tax payer money. Obviously, the mistakes the foriegn car companies are making is miniscule in comparison, and certainly not heading them towards bankruptcy over and over again like GM & Chrysler.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm trying to think of a topical analogy to get back to GM News - like, investing in nukes is like dumping Aveos in favor of doubling HUMMER production.
Volt is news, per Lutz on Letterman, and does it not need to be plugged in to charge batteries? There will not be enough windmills to power plug ins of all brands, keep our air cond going in mcmansions. Also, coal fired power will be under attack by new guy in DC. Nuclear could have been the answer today if people had not got scared after Jane Fonda movie. Of course, nuclear needs very long lead time for design, approval before going online.
Well, if the movie didn't just happen to time in perfectly with Three Mile Island it wouldn't have been the big deal it became. Both things put together scared the socks off people. Of course a few years later Chernobyl only turned up the heat.
Now we know that Chernobyl isn't something that can repeat here but it put that much more fear into the equation.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The sad part is that GM had an arrangement with VM Motori to supply a 2.9L V6 diesel rated around 250hp/ 400 ftlb, but that was recently canceled along with the homebrew 4.5L V8.
No foreign car company blunder has cost any American any tax payer money.
Toyota got a bunch of tax credits and incentives to build a factory in Tupelo. Who knows when (or if) they'll actually start car production there. VW may turn out the same way over in Chattanooga. I suspect some of the other foreign companies shuttered plants due to sales projections blunders over the years (Isuzu maybe?).
Xrunner2, any of that stuff is going to take time. If the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge was opened to drilling tomorrow, I've heard it'd still take a decade or longer for the oil to reach Valdez.
I'm pretty sure that the manual only called for timing belt replacement every 90k miles. But that "90k Service" was expensive ($700-$900 at local dealers)! Luckily, my cousin was a mechanic at a Honda dealership and he'd do it for $400.
You know what, despite our differences I'd vote for you being the next GM CEO. You seem to have all the right plans, all that's left is to see if you can get the right styling for the cars and the right pricing. Get both of them right and I'll immediately visit the nearest GM dealership.
see where being greener falls out. Does it make the top 20? then think about where the gov ranks it. is it higher up on their list?
thinking about buying a $16k very small car. for $5-7k more it could be greener, maybe hybrid. for another $5k it could be a diesel. And for $7.5k more than that, it won't even use gas or diesel. What did honda do to get to a no gas car? They leased hydrogen cars costing hundreds of thousands each to hollywood stars.
Honestly I don't get your math and logic. IMO:
1. Who cares about government's bureaucratic ratings? Or the subjective top 20? Pick what's greener for your needs.
2. The answer to your hybrid prayer at such price is Honda Insight, not Volt. Volt costs over 30k subsidized, and about 40k without one.
3. I think Honda's doing perfect. Let the millionaires recoup the R&D costs for us so we can enjoy the mass production version for less in the future.
Wanna bet the Insight lasts longer and true cost to own blows away the Volt? The best thing is it isn't even out yet and the smell of failure is permeating the air already!
Wanna bet the Insight lasts longer and true cost to own blows away the Volt? The best thing is it isn't even out yet and the smell of failure is permeating the air already!
LOL. So lets see, you have no factual information other than price (which is iffy info at best, even according the the source) on this thing and you already have it doomed. Sounds more like Fox News to me.
Some (maybe many, maybe just 3 people that whine incessantly on here) don't like GM. We (the other posters) get that. Can we move on now?
So lets see, you have no factual information other than price (which is iffy info at best, even according the the source) on this thing and you already have it doomed
I guess if GM can advertise the Volt for four years before they had a factual car then it's ok, right?
Hmm...I guess price means nothing to you. Interesting.
According to Jeremy Michalek the engineering professor who led the study, “Forty miles might be a sweet spot for making sure a lot of people get to work without using gasoline, but you’re doing it at a cost that will never be repaid in fuel savings.” It is pointed out that the Volt’s battery is likely to cost $16,000 at current prices, and the car close to $40,000.
Let me know when GM is gone as we know it and they start to lead as they once did.
I've moved on already. Honda and Toyota lead in the technology unless you've been away for a while.
Toyota got a bunch of tax credits and incentives to build a factory in Tupelo.
Thats a whole different thing to tax payer bailouts. First, when Toyota and local governments that want their business and factories in their own neighborhoods get together, they do so for the common good of all involved and they both have their best interests in mind. It can be a win-win situation, and they both take on risk, so it can also be lose-lose.
But with the current bailouts of GM AND Chrysler, there is no win-win situation. There is no scenario where the tax payer is getting any benefit whatsoever. It is nothing but a lose-lose scenario, and ONLY a lose-lose scenario.
Chrysler and GM have no hope to help real Americans. They just want to steal our tax money so they can put off and delay the inevitable failure of the companies.
A lot of us have been saying exactly this and that any bailout money was throwing money down the drain after bad money. Yet BILLIONS of dollars later, the inevitable bankruptcy happens anyway!!!! Of course, it was inevitable after all; what did you all expect to happen?
The bailouts are not a negotiation, they are like a bum on the street asking you to donate money, and if you say no to them, they will pull out a gun and pretend like the world will end if you don't pay them, and if you don't believe them, then they will try and take down the world with them.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
".....Is that from the era where they had top oilers that oiled the upper part of the motor which was open? I recall seeing something like I described at a car show here a few years back."
No, it is an OHV 6 cyl. with internal pushrods. Someday I'll figure out how to post pictures.
I guess if GM can advertise the Volt for four years before they had a factual car then it's ok, right?
Would it make a difference? The people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
If GM issues a press release, the people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
Let me know when GM is gone as we know it and they start to lead as they once did.
So you are saying they need to now change the name?
I've moved on already. Honda and Toyota lead in the technology unless you've been away for a while.
Hmmm I am sure you are right but I haven't seen a modern battery electric vehicle from either one in North America. Nor have I seen a Plug-in hybrid.
Honda doesn't even have descent iPod connectivity without a nav system, or bluetooth for that matter.
I think Toyota is fantastic though. They have found the middle, the made vanilla. I think they offer great products for women and men who don't like cars, which is most of the people out there.
There is no scenario where the tax payer is getting any benefit whatsoever
If jobs are saved, that's not any different to me than giving Toyota or VW incentives to create jobs. Economic development incentives are commonplace and the automaker bailouts are just another flavor of them.
Changing the name is the least of their problems...let's worry about building a new company from the ashes that will be left.
What is a new company? No managers, no engineers, to assembly workers? Burn down the Ren Cen and the Tech Center and relocate? I don't see certain people being satisfied with that.
They should change the name. They need to change the culture a bit. The other changes have been made. It doesn't matter. I guess I would rather scapegoat a corporation/industry than a race or group of people. I personally would've gone for the banks but what do I know.
When we take our SS checks one day, if the system is not self sufficient at that point, then we will be Bums like the auto industry. We will be taking taxpayer money.
Which way is the fed deficit going. last I looked it was UP. So we are talking about every federal employee and private contractor for the fed being bums. They are the benefactors of borrowed money that will never be paid back. (defecit spending exceeds the interest on the lifetime accumulated debt) Unlike the fed, the auto industry said they would pay it back. But in the land of 'I want it all and I want it now', there is no patience for waiting until the recession ends and profitability to return to the industry.
Nobody is looking out for the auto industry, least of all foreign car buyers.
LOL. So lets see, you have no factual information other than price (which is iffy info at best, even according the the source) on this thing and you already have it doomed. Sounds more like Fox News to me.
Sounds more like judging GM based on their past performance.
Some (maybe many, maybe just 3 people that whine incessantly on here) don't like GM. We (the other posters) get that. Can we move on now?
Yeah, and if you believe that I've got this nice bridge to sell you, with a great view of Brooklyn. :shades:
Nobody is looking out for the auto industry, least of all foreign car buyers.
No one should be looking out for them...they're supposed to be looking out for themselves. Maybe if they'd done a better job of it there would be fewer foreign car buyers. GM is not a charity case as you seem to think they are. They're a business. If they can't do business in such a way where they make money, then they don't deserve to be in business. The travesty is that, after they proved this, instead of going out of business like a normal company, they went to Washington, and made like AIG, threatening a domino effect that would take down the economy if they didn't get money. So we started financing their failed business model.
If we continue to do that, what reason does GM have to improve their products, processes, image, etc? Answer: none. So they won't. They'll just keep begging for money.
The business world is by nature Darwinian. People haven't liked Darwinism lately..first you see people trying to get it out of schools, next the business world? Scary.
You have it exactly right, as history shows us. Companies and industries come and go. If you look back 100 years, not one of the top 20 companies still exist. It is normal for companies to fail and be replaced by hungrier, better entrepreneurs.
So when people here get so upset because we really don't care if GM, or Chrysler, or IBM, or Microsoft would fail and people are temporarily unemployed, they don't understand that is normal and what is most efficient.
There is no reason that any company couldn't fail and be replaced. I too am disgusted by our society which seems to want to give everyone a trophy in life.
Seems to me that Darwin was all about cooperation and mutualism, and not simply about the fittest shorthand label that usually gets laid on him. GM and the UAW have competing interests but obviously they cooperate more than they try to kill each other.
There are all sorts of cooperative efforts among the automakers whether they are part owners like Toyota/Subaru or bitter rivals who still share info. The topical example here would be the NUMMI plant shared by GM and Toyota in that joint venture.
Microsoft and Apple would be another example. Bill Steve B. sells a lot of software to customers of Steve J. They compete more, but there's plenty of cooperation going on.
I'm not sure that Toyota wants to see GM fail either, both from the political backlash aspect and the loss of suppliers that they both use. Their lobbyists are probably pleading GM's case in Congress as much as GM's are.
So, now can we say that Obama has to take responsibility for something? I'm absolutely furious that he is forcing all of us to bail out a corporation that made terrible decisions and was completely held hostage by the UAW. Unbelievable!
My wife and I are actually car shopping right now, and guess what. All the other manufacturers - Subaru, Nissan, and Mazda (the ones we've been looking at) have barely any incentives at all. In fact, our local Subaru dealership said their sales have been up the last two months.
I cannot believe anyone would defend the way Obama and his so-called "auto-task force" (none of which have any..I repeat ANY experience in the car industry) have rammed down our throats.
They say we need to save 90,000 Union jobs. Guess what? The current list of dealer closures are estimated to cause over 150,000 people to lose their jobs. You never hear that reported in the mainstream news do you?
When are Americans going to rise up against this insanity?
Can you imagine some people have careers where they try to help others overcome problems.
Yeah, that's called charity. That's where people voluntarily help others. We did not voluntarily help GM: GM held the economy hostage with a threat of a domino effect unless they got our money. That's blackmail and extortion, which are crimes.
I guess you would never seek medical care. That would be against Darwinism right?
I try to avoid needing medical care. I especially try to avoid making really stupid decisions to cause myself to need medical care. That's the difference between getting hurt in a fall, and going skydiving without a parachute. The first is an honest accident, the second is Darwinism getting rid of those too stupid to survive.
GM went skydiving without a parachute and with weights attached to their ankles over the middle of the North Atlantic.
I'm not sure that Toyota wants to see GM fail either, both from the political backlash aspect and the loss of suppliers that they both use. Their lobbyists are probably pleading GM's case in Congress as much as GM's are.
Maybe so, but the last few months have so disgusted me as far as GM goes that I have migrated from "well, let's give them a chance" to "they're too stupid to survive and should be taken off of the life support that I'm paying for." And polls have been showing more Americans taking that stance as well.
So, now can we say that Obama has to take responsibility for something? I'm absolutely furious that he is forcing all of us to bail out a corporation that made terrible decisions and was completely held hostage by the UAW. Unbelievable!
Umm, no. Because I seem to remember a different President wanting the bailout, telling Congress to do it, and when Congress voted against it, said President went and did it anyway.
I cannot believe anyone would defend the way Obama and his so-called "auto-task force" (none of which have any..I repeat ANY experience in the car industry) have rammed down our throats.
Again, this is not the all Obama show when it comes to bailouts. Seems to me he's trying to get us out fo that business one way or another.
And another point: We have GM failing, run by auto industry veterans. We have Chrysler failed, run by industry veterans and some guy named Nerdelli. And we have Ford, succeeding, run by some guy who is not from the auto industry at all.
Think it matters if someone has experience in the auto industry? Seems to me that the guys without experience in the auto industry are doing better.
The current list of dealer closures are estimated to cause over 150,000 people to lose their jobs.
That's assuming those dealers actually close. Most of them tend to either also sell used cars or other brands of cars. And there are also companies that might be willing to open new franchises...Kia, Mazda, etc. So that "estimate" is more of a "rough guestimate" based on an implied worst case scenario where every dealer listed to be losing GM or Chrysler immediately shuts its doors.
I too am disgusted by our society which seems to want to give everyone a trophy in life.
Isn't that the truth. I went to my Grandson's school award assembly. I'll be danged if every kid in the stinking school did not get some kind of award. Enough is enough. We are raising a bunch of losers to take over. Where is personal sacrifice to get ahead?
We are rewarding GM and C for their GROSS negligence in running a business. They should be on the auction block and GONE already. They are the LOSERS this country wants to make feel good. It is a total bunch of CRAP.
When are Americans going to rise up against this insanity?
Welcome to the forum. We need more voices of common sense in this discussion and the country. I have been harping about the dealers losing jobs and all people think about is a handful of UAW Obama supporters. Damn the little guy at the dealership making $9 per hour. He is a loser according to the UAW. Well it is time for the UAW to be groveling instead of stealing from the tax payers.
Have to kick the hosts to get working on that selective post skipping feature.
It is also repetitive to hear how next years LaCrosse will be the greatest. Or the Equinox is going to be so much better than the POC they have built the last 5 years. And the Volt is vapor ware like the Hydrogen cars we can all afford. GM has not made a decent profit in 20 years. It is time to shut the door on the company. Not spend $billions of tax dollars that will NEVER be repaid.
Comments
Exactly my view. The Yukon hybrid gives up 2400 lbs of towing capacity for ONE MPG gain on the highway, over the non hybrid Yukon. You pay an extra $10,000 for the ONE MPG out on the road. We are headed backwards and GM did not help with their ineptness at satisfying the consumers. How hard can it be to build a 1/2 ton PU with a 3.0L diesel engine? It is easy to get 400 ft lbs of torque out of that size diesel. The 3.0L 6 cylinder diesel from BMW has more torque at a lower RPM than the Escalade 6.2L V8. What's not to like about that engine. I can tell you it would blow the socks off GM V8 gassers out on the road. And get a lot better mileage in the process.
The EPA window sticker, however, reads 30 city, 41 highway, 34 combined.
When the heck will we taxpayers get to stop bailing out GM. Do not agree with $7,500 rebate. Perhaps $500-$1000 might be acceptable - think that Prius had some kind of US govt rebate, but nowhere near $7,500.
Let GM price the Volt to cover their costs plus reasonable profit and then see what happens in the market. Car buyers will be able to choose between Prius, Ford Fusion and Insight as well as Volt. Let them decide.
Insofar as energy self-sufficiency, would make much more sense for taxpayers to have had supported clean nuclear if we had even had DC leadership on this over the last 3 decades. US woefully behind in using nuclear compared to, of all countries, France.
Believe that technology and safeguards have advanced since then. Check out what French are doing. 3-mile was contained, not much went into the air, and Philly is still around. Was really amazing that China Syndrome movie with SuperStar Jane Fonda started showing within maybe a week of 3-mile. Don't remember which came first though - 3-mile or the movie.
Does it make the top 20?
then think about where the gov ranks it.
is it higher up on their list?
thinking about buying a $16k very small car.
for $5-7k more it could be greener, maybe hybrid.
for another $5k it could be a diesel.
And for $7.5k more than that, it won't even use gas or diesel.
What did honda do to get to a no gas car? They leased hydrogen cars costing hundreds of thousands each to hollywood stars.
Not everything at Wal-Mart is low quality, although I'd have to agree a majority (maybe 51%) of their products are low quality.
But Doritos chips and Breyer's Ice Cream taste the same whether I buy them at Wal-Mart for $2.50 a pop or at a grocery store gouging me for $4.50 for the same thing.
I'm trying to think of a topical analogy to get back to GM News - like, investing in nukes is like dumping Aveos in favor of doubling HUMMER production. It may look good on paper and it'll attract a few buyers, but most people won't like the True Cost to Own.
Hey, GM stuff and a site plug. :P
If you look at a comparison of how many billions and billions of dollars in losses GM's mistakes have cost American Tax payers, vs. how many billions of dollars in losses Toyota and Honda's mistakes have cost Tax payers, that will answer your question as to why GM's history of blunders is discussed at greater length than any other car company (other than maybe Chrysler).
I can help you out here, the figure for foreign car companies is $0.00 for American Taxpayers. No foreign car company blunder has cost any American any tax payer money. Obviously, the mistakes the foriegn car companies are making is miniscule in comparison, and certainly not heading them towards bankruptcy over and over again like GM & Chrysler.
Volt is news, per Lutz on Letterman, and does it not need to be plugged in to charge batteries? There will not be enough windmills to power plug ins of all brands, keep our air cond going in mcmansions. Also, coal fired power will be under attack by new guy in DC. Nuclear could have been the answer today if people had not got scared after Jane Fonda movie. Of course, nuclear needs very long lead time for design, approval before going online.
Now we know that Chernobyl isn't something that can repeat here but it put that much more fear into the equation.
Toyota got a bunch of tax credits and incentives to build a factory in Tupelo. Who knows when (or if) they'll actually start car production there. VW may turn out the same way over in Chattanooga. I suspect some of the other foreign companies shuttered plants due to sales projections blunders over the years (Isuzu maybe?).
Xrunner2, any of that stuff is going to take time. If the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge was opened to drilling tomorrow, I've heard it'd still take a decade or longer for the oil to reach Valdez.
You know what, despite our differences I'd vote for you being the next GM CEO. You seem to have all the right plans, all that's left is to see if you can get the right styling for the cars and the right pricing. Get both of them right and I'll immediately visit the nearest GM dealership.
Does it make the top 20?
then think about where the gov ranks it.
is it higher up on their list?
thinking about buying a $16k very small car.
for $5-7k more it could be greener, maybe hybrid.
for another $5k it could be a diesel.
And for $7.5k more than that, it won't even use gas or diesel.
What did honda do to get to a no gas car? They leased hydrogen cars costing hundreds of thousands each to hollywood stars.
Honestly I don't get your math and logic. IMO:
1. Who cares about government's bureaucratic ratings? Or the subjective top 20? Pick what's greener for your needs.
2. The answer to your hybrid prayer at such price is Honda Insight, not Volt. Volt costs over 30k subsidized, and about 40k without one.
3. I think Honda's doing perfect. Let the millionaires recoup the R&D costs for us so we can enjoy the mass production version for less in the future.
I think flawlessly executed falls apart when you look into the interior.
Any further questions?
This will go down as a benchmark in corporate mismanagement, afaic.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
LOL. So lets see, you have no factual information other than price (which is iffy info at best, even according the the source) on this thing and you already have it doomed. Sounds more like Fox News to me.
Some (maybe many, maybe just 3 people that whine incessantly on here) don't like GM. We (the other posters) get that. Can we move on now?
I guess if GM can advertise the Volt for four years before they had a factual car then it's ok, right?
According to Jeremy Michalek the engineering professor who led the study, “Forty miles might be a sweet spot for making sure a lot of people get to work without using gasoline, but you’re doing it at a cost that will never be repaid in fuel savings.” It is pointed out that the Volt’s battery is likely to cost $16,000 at current prices, and the car close to $40,000.
Let me know when GM is gone as we know it and they start to lead as they once did.
I've moved on already. Honda and Toyota lead in the technology unless you've been away for a while.
Regards,
OW
Thats a whole different thing to tax payer bailouts. First, when Toyota and local governments that want their business and factories in their own neighborhoods get together, they do so for the common good of all involved and they both have their best interests in mind. It can be a win-win situation, and they both take on risk, so it can also be lose-lose.
But with the current bailouts of GM AND Chrysler, there is no win-win situation. There is no scenario where the tax payer is getting any benefit whatsoever. It is nothing but a lose-lose scenario, and ONLY a lose-lose scenario.
Chrysler and GM have no hope to help real Americans. They just want to steal our tax money so they can put off and delay the inevitable failure of the companies.
A lot of us have been saying exactly this and that any bailout money was throwing money down the drain after bad money. Yet BILLIONS of dollars later, the inevitable bankruptcy happens anyway!!!! Of course, it was inevitable after all; what did you all expect to happen?
The bailouts are not a negotiation, they are like a bum on the street asking you to donate money, and if you say no to them, they will pull out a gun and pretend like the world will end if you don't pay them, and if you don't believe them, then they will try and take down the world with them.
No, it is an OHV 6 cyl. with internal pushrods. Someday I'll figure out how to post pictures.
Would it make a difference? The people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
If GM issues a press release, the people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
So you are saying they need to now change the name?
I've moved on already. Honda and Toyota lead in the technology unless you've been away for a while.
Hmmm I am sure you are right but I haven't seen a modern battery electric vehicle from either one in North America. Nor have I seen a Plug-in hybrid.
Honda doesn't even have descent iPod connectivity without a nav system, or bluetooth for that matter.
I think Toyota is fantastic though. They have found the middle, the made vanilla. I think they offer great products for women and men who don't like cars, which is most of the people out there.
Regards,
OW
If jobs are saved, that's not any different to me than giving Toyota or VW incentives to create jobs. Economic development incentives are commonplace and the automaker bailouts are just another flavor of them.
What is a new company? No managers, no engineers, to assembly workers? Burn down the Ren Cen and the Tech Center and relocate? I don't see certain people being satisfied with that.
They should change the name. They need to change the culture a bit. The other changes have been made. It doesn't matter. I guess I would rather scapegoat a corporation/industry than a race or group of people. I personally would've gone for the banks but what do I know.
Which way is the fed deficit going. last I looked it was UP. So we are talking about every federal employee and private contractor for the fed being bums. They are the benefactors of borrowed money that will never be paid back. (defecit spending exceeds the interest on the lifetime accumulated debt) Unlike the fed, the auto industry said they would pay it back. But in the land of 'I want it all and I want it now', there is no patience for waiting until the recession ends and profitability to return to the industry.
Nobody is looking out for the auto industry, least of all foreign car buyers.
Any politician who threatened to copycat the French would be thrown out of office on general principles. :shades:
Sounds more like judging GM based on their past performance.
Some (maybe many, maybe just 3 people that whine incessantly on here) don't like GM. We (the other posters) get that. Can we move on now?
No :shades:
Yeah, and if you believe that I've got this nice bridge to sell you, with a great view of Brooklyn. :shades:
Nobody is looking out for the auto industry, least of all foreign car buyers.
No one should be looking out for them...they're supposed to be looking out for themselves. Maybe if they'd done a better job of it there would be fewer foreign car buyers. GM is not a charity case as you seem to think they are. They're a business. If they can't do business in such a way where they make money, then they don't deserve to be in business. The travesty is that, after they proved this, instead of going out of business like a normal company, they went to Washington, and made like AIG, threatening a domino effect that would take down the economy if they didn't get money. So we started financing their failed business model.
If we continue to do that, what reason does GM have to improve their products, processes, image, etc? Answer: none. So they won't. They'll just keep begging for money.
The business world is by nature Darwinian. People haven't liked Darwinism lately..first you see people trying to get it out of schools, next the business world? Scary.
I guess you would never seek medical care. That would be against Darwinism right?
So when people here get so upset because we really don't care if GM, or Chrysler, or IBM, or Microsoft would fail and people are temporarily unemployed, they don't understand that is normal and what is most efficient.
There is no reason that any company couldn't fail and be replaced. I too am disgusted by our society which seems to want to give everyone a trophy in life.
There are all sorts of cooperative efforts among the automakers whether they are part owners like Toyota/Subaru or bitter rivals who still share info. The topical example here would be the NUMMI plant shared by GM and Toyota in that joint venture.
Microsoft and Apple would be another example.
BillSteve B. sells a lot of software to customers of Steve J. They compete more, but there's plenty of cooperation going on.I'm not sure that Toyota wants to see GM fail either, both from the political backlash aspect and the loss of suppliers that they both use. Their lobbyists are probably pleading GM's case in Congress as much as GM's are.
My wife and I are actually car shopping right now, and guess what. All the other manufacturers - Subaru, Nissan, and Mazda (the ones we've been looking at) have barely any incentives at all. In fact, our local Subaru dealership said their sales have been up the last two months.
I cannot believe anyone would defend the way Obama and his so-called "auto-task force" (none of which have any..I repeat ANY experience in the car industry) have rammed down our throats.
They say we need to save 90,000 Union jobs. Guess what? The current list of dealer closures are estimated to cause over 150,000 people to lose their jobs. You never hear that reported in the mainstream news do you?
When are Americans going to rise up against this insanity?
GM gets more money - and they are going into bankruptcy in a week!
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090522/ANA05/905219969/1142
Chrysler is worse off then was first reported by the Obama administration!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/30891941
No
Have to kick the hosts to get working on that selective post skipping feature. :P
I'm sure a lot of people here see the red Host in the title and skip my posts too.
Yeah, that's called charity. That's where people voluntarily help others. We did not voluntarily help GM: GM held the economy hostage with a threat of a domino effect unless they got our money. That's blackmail and extortion, which are crimes.
I guess you would never seek medical care. That would be against Darwinism right?
I try to avoid needing medical care. I especially try to avoid making really stupid decisions to cause myself to need medical care. That's the difference between getting hurt in a fall, and going skydiving without a parachute. The first is an honest accident, the second is Darwinism getting rid of those too stupid to survive.
GM went skydiving without a parachute and with weights attached to their ankles over the middle of the North Atlantic.
Maybe so, but the last few months have so disgusted me as far as GM goes that I have migrated from "well, let's give them a chance" to "they're too stupid to survive and should be taken off of the life support that I'm paying for." And polls have been showing more Americans taking that stance as well.
Umm, no. Because I seem to remember a different President wanting the bailout, telling Congress to do it, and when Congress voted against it, said President went and did it anyway.
I cannot believe anyone would defend the way Obama and his so-called "auto-task force" (none of which have any..I repeat ANY experience in the car industry) have rammed down our throats.
Again, this is not the all Obama show when it comes to bailouts. Seems to me he's trying to get us out fo that business one way or another.
And another point: We have GM failing, run by auto industry veterans. We have Chrysler failed, run by industry veterans and some guy named Nerdelli. And we have Ford, succeeding, run by some guy who is not from the auto industry at all.
Think it matters if someone has experience in the auto industry? Seems to me that the guys without experience in the auto industry are doing better.
The current list of dealer closures are estimated to cause over 150,000 people to lose their jobs.
That's assuming those dealers actually close. Most of them tend to either also sell used cars or other brands of cars. And there are also companies that might be willing to open new franchises...Kia, Mazda, etc. So that "estimate" is more of a "rough guestimate" based on an implied worst case scenario where every dealer listed to be losing GM or Chrysler immediately shuts its doors.
Posts? What posts? I'm sorry, were you saying something? :P
Isn't that the truth. I went to my Grandson's school award assembly. I'll be danged if every kid in the stinking school did not get some kind of award. Enough is enough. We are raising a bunch of losers to take over. Where is personal sacrifice to get ahead?
We are rewarding GM and C for their GROSS negligence in running a business. They should be on the auction block and GONE already. They are the LOSERS this country wants to make feel good. It is a total bunch of CRAP.
Welcome to the forum. We need more voices of common sense in this discussion and the country. I have been harping about the dealers losing jobs and all people think about is a handful of UAW Obama supporters. Damn the little guy at the dealership making $9 per hour. He is a loser according to the UAW. Well it is time for the UAW to be groveling instead of stealing from the tax payers.
It is also repetitive to hear how next years LaCrosse will be the greatest. Or the Equinox is going to be so much better than the POC they have built the last 5 years. And the Volt is vapor ware like the Hydrogen cars we can all afford. GM has not made a decent profit in 20 years. It is time to shut the door on the company. Not spend $billions of tax dollars that will NEVER be repaid.