".....You will make money if the dealer costs are cut out of the supply chain. All prices drop to raise sales levels at that point.
It's called market shake up...long overdue in the auto world."
What you are suggesting would be Industry Wide, would it not?? Not just GM.
Bottom line is that with the new models Transaction prices are up, rebates are down, and the 4 surviving brands have done better in the last 60 days as the supply of "dead brands" cars dwindle. Old models ( that will eventually be replaced ) are still a drag on the company.
It's called Market Shakeup. All brands would experience price drops and would also have room for increased margins, so transaction advantage would result.
Of course, GM would be the last company to get on board with this approach because of the spider web of dealers and the non-innovative strategic thinking. Isn't it always last to the table?
Who's ad campaign worked better GM's late 60-day MBG or Hyundai Assurance? First to the table wins.
Also, the Enclave and it's competition are gas guzzlers except for the range-topping RX-450H with it's 30 mpg combined rating...Toyota is light years ahead of GM in FE where hybrids are concerned.
The RX450H is a whole size down from the Enclave. No third row in the RX and the Highlander which does have a third row is much smaller then the Enclave. No vehicle in that size is going to get stellar mileage and be able to move the way the average american driver wants it to. Sure you can add a Hybrid powertrain and add 5,000-10,000 dollars to the price but that doesn't make much financial sense. Those kind of Hybrids are just status symbols for people and for the brand they come from. They are important because of that but don't try to make anything else out of them.
People ask me all the time why Volvo doesn't have a Hybrid and I explain that most hybrids don't make financial sense and being a cold weather brand Hybrids don't work in the cold
It takes almost seven and a half years to make up the 5,000 dollar difference in price between similarly a equipped RX350 and RX450H assuming 15,000 miles a year and $2.91 for premium gas. That is about a 111,000 miles and I have already seen Hybrid RXs and Highlanders with serious problems past 100,000 miles when the hybrid warranty is over. One customer lost the transformer on their 2006 Highlander Hybrid at around 120,000 miles. The part costs some obscene amount of money, $10,000 dollars is the number I recall, making his car essentially worthless.
I know a non-hybrid RX will do 200,000 or more miles easily as I have seen many of them over the years but I have no confidence that a Hybrid one will
And there are people that need/want those size cars. As long as people will buy them and companies can make money selling them then they will exist. I am a huge fan of small cars but realize that they just can't work for everyone.
On to the direct selling of cars to people and cutting out the dealer. It will never happen in any mass scale for a few simple reasons.
I would love to have a small inventory and just order cars or have them drop shipped from port but it just doesn't work. People want to try out a variety of cars, they want to see the color of their car in person and not just on a little sample. We have a very small inventory right now and it makes people nervous. They ask if we are ok is business going ok why do you have so few cars. We have so few cars because the factories aren't making many. Our inventory company wide has gone from about 24 million dollars in Oct of 2008 to about 4.5 million in October of 2009.
There is running lean and there is running too lean to sell enough cars to meet your monthly objective. We are at that stage right now. People come in they want their car right then and we can't get them one. They get frustrated they buy something else. If we had a car in stock they liked it would be a done deal but they go pick something else cause they can have it now.
A few months ago I sent a customer of mine to a competitor to test drive a car he wanted to look at because I didn't have one. I couldn't get one, they made very few of them and were very expensive for their class so no way I was going to order one just so he could test drive it, and it was the only model/trim he was interested in. He drove the car at the other place thankfully he is a very good customer and bought the car from me. Ordered it OSD and took delivery in Sweden last month. He is picking up his car in person at the end of the month. Most customers are not going to do that. They will get frustrated and buy something else.
If the whole industry went that way maybe it would work but that is never going to happen. Its the same reason fixed priced models don't work that well. There is always someone who is going to do it for cheaper and there is many times a trade to deal with. If someone's hot button is the trade then you need to shift money from the new car to the trade value to make them happy.
As you just explained, there are so many inefficiencies in the supply chain due to shortages/overstock of inventory. True as you said it would be an extremely difficult piece to cut out the dealer sales but sooner or later one competitor will find a way to achieve a breakthrough model.
some of my peeps root for car companies as if they are sports teams with a redsox vs yankees rivalry! is anyone here doing that?!? Do we need a fantasy-auto-league where we each run our own car manufacturer/dealerships and accrue league/points based on actual monthly/industry sales figures and smack-talk?
as for hoping GM re-fails, and then comparing auto industry to the computer industry and demise of awesome computer companies/equipment of yore, and to include IBM as if it doesn't exist any more - that is wrong on too many levels to count!
Unless of course you want to have the govt spend $20k to pay me $4500 to trade in each of my old PCs and buy all new computers with a painted-green case, that would be a great windfall! Sign me up for that.
"......Also, the Enclave and it's competition are gas guzzlers except for the range-topping RX-450H with it's 30 mpg combined rating...Toyota is light years ahead of GM in FE where hybrids are concerned."
Yep, they sure are when it comes to hybrids. But compare apples to apples, AWD gas to AWD gas:
It is interesting to see that there are still people defending for GM's incompetetence on its lack of investment in the hybrid/electric area. And some people still argue that hybrid cars don't make sense because the fuel savings aren't worth the initial investment cost. The truth is, if the oil price spikes again next few years, GM will still be in a position where nobody wants its cars. And Toyota will continue to pump out hybrid vehicles that are even cheaper, more reliable, and more fuel efficient than those on the market today.
In my view, the administration really killed the chance to revive GM when it allowed the union contract to stay since no other car companie would want to acquire a stake in GM to give it needed shakeup in management, operations, and product development. However this should be part of a whole different discussion.
some of my peeps root for car companies as if they are sports teams with a redsox vs yankees rivalry!
I think the problem is that we want the game to have 3 outs per inning for each team. It's a little unfair when the home-team gets 4 outs. GM and Chrysler are playing with 4 outs and Ford gets 3 outs. GM and Chrysler workers get 4 outs in this economy, the rest of us get 3 outs. Go down to an unemployment-line and tell people who are trying to get a $10/hr job, that it is fair that UAW jobs were saved with tax $.
as for hoping GM re-fails
I don't think there's anyone here who hopes that. Personally I had a problem with the PAST bailout, not with the current GM. I just think the current GM is very much like the old, and I think that it will fail for the same reasons. That is an objective-opinion, not an emotional one.
computer industry and demise of awesome computer companies/equipment of yore
The point was that one or more companies in anindustry can fail, and life goes on. There never will be a vacuum in manufacturers when there is customer demand. Someone would step in and produce the vehicles we need, just as other companies formed in the computer industry.
and to include IBM as if it doesn't exist any more
I said failed in making PC's. IBM once made PC's and their own OS, but failed and withdrew to other types of computer products.
Yes if gas prices spike, people who feel the affect the most will be trying to save $. It is a no-brainer if you want to save $ overall that the Prius or Insight would be the way to go if you want a hybrid, not a Chevy Volt which will cost at least $10K more.
Well the buick is 1,100 dollars less then the RX according to TMV and the RX requires premium fuel. If you put regular in the RX instead of premium it will get the same mileage as the Enclave.
As for the reliablity well the Enclave hasn't really been out long enough to say one way or the other.
I used to be moderately pro-GM until about 5 years ago. I had bought a '94 Corsica, a V-6 '98 Camaro, and then an '01 Firebird V-8, and my wife had a '00 Silverado - all bought new.
Since I bought that last vehicle, I noticed how GM became more and more disconnected from reality. They continued doing the same things wrong month after month.
They are now in my mind "damaged goods". In order for me to look at a GM product it had better be minimum 10% cheaper, have 10% better mpg, 10% better quality ...
GM (and Chrysler) need to put out superior products, not just slightly better in 1 or 2 areas, if they want to compete in these traditional vehicles.
That is why I'm saying that GM and Chrysler had better start building non-traditional vehicles, and carving themselves a market. Otherwise their market-share continues to decrease, and they run out of that loaned government $.
What the...?!?!? My 1988 Buick Park Avenue lasted for over 21 years! My first car was a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that was still running in 1992! My wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse has YET to have an unscheduled maintenance event. Shoot, if Buicks are far less dependable than the competition, a Camcord should run for over 100 years and be able to be driven through a 4 foot thick solid granite wall at 90 mph without sustaining as much as a scratch!
WHEN BETTER CARS ARE BUILT, BUICK WILL BUILD THEM!
The 2010 Buick Enclave reliability score of 7.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
The 2010 Lexus RX 350 reliability score of 9.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
Well if you look at the consumer's reviews, you know, the people who actually OWN THEM, there are far more positives with the Enclave;
There are only 11 reviews for the Enclave vs 66 for the Lexus . LOL. Hardly a worthy sample for either. Granted I'm sure if any of the Enclave owners were coming out of a Rendezvous, they feel like they are in heaven.
Yep, but there are 209 for the 2008, which rates a 9.0, higher than any of the Lexus' ratings, and more reviews than the '08-'10 RX350 COMBINED
My point is 11, 66, or even 209 is a very small sample. I'm not trying to take any think away from the Enclave, regardless I guess it's good that some people are happy with them.
I think we'd all agree that the 2010 Lacrosse is a huge improvement over the '09, but according to the customer reviews on Edmunds, the '09 scored an 8.2 and the '10 an 8.3. But after actually reading the reviews on the '10 Lacrosse many really liked the car and a few really hated it, kind of wonder if some of the people writing the reviews actually own the car.
There is nothing to weep about. That is PREDICTED reliability, and there is only a one ball difference (4.5 vs. 3.5). The CONSUMERS still like their Enclaves better than they like their RX's.
I think you all know that what is "excellent to poor" is subjective; based on a person's expectations and past experiences. I've been researching where to go on my next vacation, and it is pretty apparent that this is very true. Some people really think the service and food is great at a resort, while some others have numerous complaints and say they are going to stay at the Ritz next time.
In order for any subjective comparision to be valid you would need the same group of people to judge both items; not 2 separate groups judging 1 product each.
If Buick is targeting Lexus as the competition and trying to win customers from these types of luxury companies, than that is another reason GM is failing. GM may wish that; just as JCPenney might think their suits compete against Brooks Brothers. At least I haven't heard GM being compared to Mercedes or Jaguars!
I think you all know that what is "excellent to poor" is subjective
Another interesting exercise would be to have a poor looking woman carry a genuine Gucci bag around and then have a wealthy looking woman pass by carrying a fake Gucci. My bet is that most people would say the fake was being carried by the bag lady.
Whether it's luxury watches or Buicks and Bimmers, people seem to be pretty bad at telling the difference out of context. The real thing?. (MIT News)
I'm thinking that after the intial demand GM will have ended up shooting itself in the foot on pricing again with the new Equinox. I compared it to the CRV. Granted, they don't match exactly, but the CRV appears to have a noticeably cheaper sticker on the various AWD trim levels, the current version CRV has good quality ratings and excellent resale value to boot. The new Equinox seems nice, but I'm not sure the numbers make it a wise purchase? Same reason I decided not to buy a Malibu. No way would I buy a current GM vehicle for a higher, or even equal price to a Toyota or Honda. It doesn't make financial sense. I guess GM may need the new leadership!
I actually kinda liked the Equinox. But I thought those ads comparing it to an RX were downright stupid.
Speaking of marketing, I was at the LA Auto Show this weekend. The cheesiest advertising I saw there (and I'm being objective) is that the GM area had a big stage, lights, and the "Volt dancers" with a bunch of cute girls dancing to music to promote the Volt (remember, a vehicle not out for at least another year!). There were a couple of Volt prototypes/mules on the stage as well. No other make in any area had any dancers that I saw. Honda did have a cute girl standing on the turntables for each car, that was about the extent of the blatant stuff.
This is the new GM? Looks just like the old GM to me.
I'd rather take a cab on breakdown-days, then ride in a reliable Buick everyday. :P Those Buicks are big sellers along with the Grand Marquis's in Florida aren't they?
The '05 Jag X-Type I have, has had nothing fail on it the 2 years I've owned it (just normal maintenance like oil changes, and shaking the dust off the air-filter).
...up close and personal. My first thought is that it makes my wife's car and the Lucerne parked next to it look downright OLD!!! I LOVE the interior with all the bluish back lighting for the instruments, controls, and courtesy lights. It kind of gives the car a futuristic ambiance. I love the slick smoked chrome accents and the rich French stitching throughout the car. I recall a time when "stitching" was merely molded into the plastic. Even the low-end 3.0 V-6 delivers an awesome 255 hp, 55 more than my wife's car while the 3.6 offers 280 hp and AWD is available. If I were completely reckless, I'd definitely give the wife a "December to Remember" with a brand-new beautiful Buick in Midnight Blue metallic with a Cashmere cloth interior which would closely match the color scheme of her current ride!
LOS ANGELES -- Cadillac and Chevrolet, seeking credibility in import-loving California, chose the Los Angeles show to unveil important new vehicles.
Cadillac rolled out the CTS Coupe, and Chevrolet introduced the compact Cruze. Both brands have lost share and suffered bigger sales declines in California than in the rest of the nation.
....The Cruze is taking aim at the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla, said Margaret Brooks, marketing director for small cars at GM. "This is a great small-car market," she said.
She said the Cruze will have the roominess and amenities of a mid-sized car and deliver 40 mpg. Chevrolet dealers will get extensive training before the vehicle goes on sale the third quarter of next year.
In the first nine months of the year, Chevy sales fell 43 percent in California, compared with 32 percent nationwide. In the same period, Cadillac sales dropped 55 percent in California, compared to a 44 percent decline nationwide. Its market share was 0.7 percent, down from 1.0 percent.
California does love its Civics and Corollas... :-P
Down 55% this year alone in California??? GM is almost out of the car business in California, not sure if the LA show will do anything to reverse their fortunes. I kinda doubt it, people don't buy Caddys here they buy Mercedes and Lexus.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
>a big stage, lights, and the "Volt dancers" with a bunch of cute girls dancing to music to promote the Volt
Not sure why that's a bad thing. I remember seeing Farah Fawcett at the Detroit Auto Show with a leopard, tiger, lion, whatever the live animal was, for Ford Motor Company, Lincoln-Mercury to be specific perching on top of the sign.
IIRC, you can't get AWD with the 3.6, and reports are that that 3.0 is outmatched in the 2-ton Lacrosse.
A true December to Remember would be a trip to the Middle Kingdom where the good Buicks are built. I wonder if Buick will start offering China Delivery in the future?
Aside from being hopelessly archaic and giving off a boozy-old-lecher vibe, it doesn't do anything for the XX set who might want to check out the vehicle without passing through an ad-hoc (censored) bar first.
".....I'd definitely give the wife a "December to Remember" with a brand-new beautiful Buick in Midnight Blue metallic with a Cashmere cloth interior which would closely match the color scheme of her current ride! "
DO IT!!!!! She'll give you a December to remember, as well. (and yes, you CAN name it after me 9 months from now) :P
I remember at the Vancouver or Seattle auto show some years ago, Chevy actually had a group of singers belting out some dopey ballad about their cars. A friend of mine couldn't stop laughing.
>lights, and the "Volt dancers" with a bunch of cute girls dancing to music to promote the Volt
I am not sure how that's a bad thing.
I recall the Detroit Auto Show many years ago when Farah Fawcett was on stage with a cougar and a Lincoln-Mercury sign. The cat perched up on top of the sign just as it does in the commercials.
"......If Buick is targeting Lexus as the competition and trying to win customers from these types of luxury companies, than that is another reason GM is failing."
I don't see how you can make the "Brooks Bros." comparison w/ Buick and Lexus, as the Lacrosse DOES now compare favorably to the ES 350, and the Enclave is as luxurious as anything in it's class, and offers much MORE CUV for the dollar than the RX.
Back in 1989, I remember when the Saturn S-series sedans were introduced, I thought the Corolla and Civic better get their act together if they want to survive with the new more competitive GM. Now 20 years later the Chevy Cruze is putting the Corolla and Civic on notice again.
If you notice, there is a $12-1500 difference between the Equinox and the CRV and RAV4. More w/ the Escape and Rogue. Not a BIG difference in standard equiptment, unless the 6 sp auto vs the 4 sp in the RAV or 5 sp in the CRV and the OnStar mean something.
The gap closes somewhat. Yes, the Nav is standard in the CRV and optional in the Equinox, but add the nav in the Equinox, and the OnStar will look up a location and download the directions to your nav, or if you do a pre trip on your home computer, you can download the Mapquest right to the nav from your home computer.
There are other things available you can look up yourselves, but as long as they sell (and they are) and there is limited cash on the hood, that is a good thing.
I don't see how you can make the "Brooks Bros." comparison w/ Buick and Lexus, as the Lacrosse DOES now compare favorably to the ES 350,
Prestige: because a Casio keeps great time, there's no reason for anyone to buy a watch over $100 right? That $500 or $1,000 watch is no better? They all make keep the time correctly, but why do people buy more expensive watches?
Customer treatment: Is the dealership experience the same?
Bankruptcy: Do you care if your vehicle is subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer, and supports an obstinant GM-culture?
Supercar image: Does Buick produce any supercars?
Customers: people looking to buy a Lexus are not cross-shopping with Buick, despite if the cars are close in functionality. JCPenney may sell nearly as fine a suit as Brooks Bros., but people will still prefer the Brooks Bros. name.
Enclave: If I was interested it would have to be AWD. That take sthe price over $40K + options. Now let's see I could buy a BMW X3 with free 4yr maintenance and get 7% and pick it up in Europe. OR - I could even order a base Porsche Cayenne, which is definitely more luxurious and capable in rough-going than an Enclave.
Oh, and then there's the reliability thorn in the side GM has earned:
Reliability
The 2010 Chevrolet Equinox reliability score of 5.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
The 2010 Honda CR-V reliability score of 9.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
There seems to be the same arrogance (or ignorance) in Detroit that they can price their vehicles right up there with leaders like Toyota and Honda. Not just GM, Ford does it too. Then the same old thing happens once the novelty of the new vehicle wears off; they end up having to put a bunch of money on the hood and their resale value starts to go to crap. Ford Edge is a prime example and I think Malibu is heading that way. I don't understand why they don't go after Japan with aggressive pricing out of the box and get some market share, better residual values and more buyer attention? Someone pointed out previously that Detroit will never be a winner if they just try to catch up, they need to lead.
Take a look. Only 2 GM's. The usual 'Vette and the new Camaro. The other GM models are net resale LOOSERS! No new news here. Not even the top selling Siverado. :surprise:
2010 BEST RESALE VALUE: TOP 10 MODELS ------------------------------------- Audi A5 MINI Cooper BMW M3 MINI Cooper Clubman Chevrolet Camaro SS Toyota Prius Chevrolet Corvette Toyota RAV4 Honda CR-V Toyota Tacoma
There seems to be the same arrogance (or ignorance) in Detroit that they can price their vehicles right up there with leaders like Toyota and Honda
I wouldn't say that it is arrogant. I would say GM has no choice but to follow this pricing strategy.
Let's say the demand of the car is higher than anticipated after the product launch. Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Hyundai will adjust the production of the car at its (more robotic) plants to meet the demand; which is what a producer is supposed to do.
Now, GM doesn't like doing that because doing so the managers need to talk to to the real boss at the union hall to obtain authorization to increase the shift at one plant and reduce the shift at the other. The union will ask something for return, like extra vacation or higher overtime pay. Management at GM would rather add/remove the incentive to manipulate the volume and keep it manageable.
Comments
It's called market shake up...long overdue in the auto world."
What you are suggesting would be Industry Wide, would it not?? Not just GM.
Bottom line is that with the new models Transaction prices are up, rebates are down, and the 4 surviving brands have done better in the last 60 days as the supply of "dead brands" cars dwindle. Old models ( that will eventually be replaced ) are still a drag on the company.
Of course, GM would be the last company to get on board with this approach because of the spider web of dealers and the non-innovative strategic thinking. Isn't it always last to the table?
Who's ad campaign worked better GM's late 60-day MBG or Hyundai Assurance? First to the table wins.
Also, the Enclave and it's competition are gas guzzlers except for the range-topping RX-450H with it's 30 mpg combined rating...Toyota is light years ahead of GM in FE where hybrids are concerned.
Regards,
OW
People ask me all the time why Volvo doesn't have a Hybrid and I explain that most hybrids don't make financial sense and being a cold weather brand Hybrids don't work in the cold
It takes almost seven and a half years to make up the 5,000 dollar difference in price between similarly a equipped RX350 and RX450H assuming 15,000 miles a year and $2.91 for premium gas. That is about a 111,000 miles and I have already seen Hybrid RXs and Highlanders with serious problems past 100,000 miles when the hybrid warranty is over. One customer lost the transformer on their 2006 Highlander Hybrid at around 120,000 miles. The part costs some obscene amount of money, $10,000 dollars is the number I recall, making his car essentially worthless.
I know a non-hybrid RX will do 200,000 or more miles easily as I have seen many of them over the years but I have no confidence that a Hybrid one will
Regards,
OW
On to the direct selling of cars to people and cutting out the dealer. It will never happen in any mass scale for a few simple reasons.
I would love to have a small inventory and just order cars or have them drop shipped from port but it just doesn't work. People want to try out a variety of cars, they want to see the color of their car in person and not just on a little sample. We have a very small inventory right now and it makes people nervous. They ask if we are ok is business going ok why do you have so few cars. We have so few cars because the factories aren't making many. Our inventory company wide has gone from about 24 million dollars in Oct of 2008 to about 4.5 million in October of 2009.
There is running lean and there is running too lean to sell enough cars to meet your monthly objective. We are at that stage right now. People come in they want their car right then and we can't get them one. They get frustrated they buy something else. If we had a car in stock they liked it would be a done deal but they go pick something else cause they can have it now.
A few months ago I sent a customer of mine to a competitor to test drive a car he wanted to look at because I didn't have one. I couldn't get one, they made very few of them and were very expensive for their class so no way I was going to order one just so he could test drive it, and it was the only model/trim he was interested in. He drove the car at the other place thankfully he is a very good customer and bought the car from me. Ordered it OSD and took delivery in Sweden last month. He is picking up his car in person at the end of the month. Most customers are not going to do that. They will get frustrated and buy something else.
If the whole industry went that way maybe it would work but that is never going to happen. Its the same reason fixed priced models don't work that well. There is always someone who is going to do it for cheaper and there is many times a trade to deal with. If someone's hot button is the trade then you need to shift money from the new car to the trade value to make them happy.
Never say never.
Hassle Free
Regards,
OW
is anyone here doing that?!? Do we need a fantasy-auto-league where we each run our own car manufacturer/dealerships and accrue league/points based on actual monthly/industry sales figures and smack-talk?
as for hoping GM re-fails, and then comparing auto industry to the computer industry and demise of awesome computer companies/equipment of yore, and to include IBM as if it doesn't exist any more - that is wrong on too many levels to count!
Unless of course you want to have the govt spend $20k to pay me $4500 to trade in each of my old PCs and buy all new computers with a painted-green case, that would be a great windfall! Sign me up for that.
Yep, they sure are when it comes to hybrids. But compare apples to apples, AWD gas to AWD gas:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison?styleid=101173978&styl- eid=101146807&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specs
Amazing. For the same price you get MORE ROOM, MORE PASSENGER CAPACITY, and FE w/in 10%.
Amazing.
Regards,
OW
In my view, the administration really killed the chance to revive GM when it allowed the union contract to stay since no other car companie would want to acquire a stake in GM to give it needed shakeup in management, operations, and product development. However this should be part of a whole different discussion.
I think the problem is that we want the game to have 3 outs per inning for each team. It's a little unfair when the home-team gets 4 outs. GM and Chrysler are playing with 4 outs and Ford gets 3 outs. GM and Chrysler workers get 4 outs in this economy, the rest of us get 3 outs. Go down to an unemployment-line and tell people who are trying to get a $10/hr job, that it is fair that UAW jobs were saved with tax $.
as for hoping GM re-fails
I don't think there's anyone here who hopes that. Personally I had a problem with the PAST bailout, not with the current GM. I just think the current GM is very much like the old, and I think that it will fail for the same reasons. That is an objective-opinion, not an emotional one.
computer industry and demise of awesome computer companies/equipment of yore
The point was that one or more companies in anindustry can fail, and life goes on. There never will be a vacuum in manufacturers when there is customer demand. Someone would step in and produce the vehicles we need, just as other companies formed in the computer industry.
and to include IBM as if it doesn't exist any more
I said failed in making PC's. IBM once made PC's and their own OS, but failed and withdrew to other types of computer products.
As for the reliablity well the Enclave hasn't really been out long enough to say one way or the other.
Since I bought that last vehicle, I noticed how GM became more and more disconnected from reality. They continued doing the same things wrong month after month.
They are now in my mind "damaged goods". In order for me to look at a GM product it had better be minimum 10% cheaper, have 10% better mpg, 10% better quality ...
GM (and Chrysler) need to put out superior products, not just slightly better in 1 or 2 areas, if they want to compete in these traditional vehicles.
That is why I'm saying that GM and Chrysler had better start building non-traditional vehicles, and carving themselves a market. Otherwise their market-share continues to decrease, and they run out of that loaned government $.
WHEN BETTER CARS ARE BUILT, BUICK WILL BUILD THEM!
The 2010 Buick Enclave reliability score of 7.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
Here is the Edmunds link.
2009 Enclave
Here is the RX-350
The 2010 Lexus RX 350 reliability score of 9.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
Here is the Edmunds link.
2009 RX-350
There is no doubt about it.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
http://www.edmunds.com/buick/enclave/2010/consumerreview.html
Than the Lexus;
http://www.edmunds.com/lexus/rx350/2010/consumerreview.html
Almost a full point better.
There are only 11 reviews for the Enclave vs 66 for the Lexus . LOL. Hardly a worthy sample for either. Granted I'm sure if any of the Enclave owners were coming out of a Rendezvous, they feel like they are in heaven.
Yep, but there are 209 for the 2008, which rates a 9.0, higher than any of the Lexus' ratings, and more reviews than the '08-'10 RX350 COMBINED
Lexus RX-350 Predicted Reliability "Among the Best"
Enclave Predicted Reliability "About Average"
It is what it is.
Regards,
OW
My point is 11, 66, or even 209 is a very small sample. I'm not trying to take any think away from the Enclave, regardless I guess it's good that some people are happy with them.
I think we'd all agree that the 2010 Lacrosse is a huge improvement over the '09, but according to the customer reviews on Edmunds, the '09 scored an 8.2 and the '10 an 8.3. But after actually reading the reviews on the '10 Lacrosse many really liked the car and a few really hated it, kind of wonder if some of the people writing the reviews actually own the car.
In order for any subjective comparision to be valid you would need the same group of people to judge both items; not 2 separate groups judging 1 product each.
If Buick is targeting Lexus as the competition and trying to win customers from these types of luxury companies, than that is another reason GM is failing. GM may wish that; just as JCPenney might think their suits compete against Brooks Brothers. At least I haven't heard GM being compared to Mercedes or Jaguars!
There was an ad when the STS came out with the E-class and 5 series dancing in a ballroom.
Shoot, remember the commercials comparing the RX to the Cheapuinox? :sick:
Another interesting exercise would be to have a poor looking woman carry a genuine Gucci bag around and then have a wealthy looking woman pass by carrying a fake Gucci. My bet is that most people would say the fake was being carried by the bag lady.
Whether it's luxury watches or Buicks and Bimmers, people seem to be pretty bad at telling the difference out of context. The real thing?. (MIT News)
I actually kinda liked the Equinox. But I thought those ads comparing it to an RX were downright stupid.
Uh, sure, question is: how many years after the competitors started? :P
Speaking of marketing, I was at the LA Auto Show this weekend. The cheesiest advertising I saw there (and I'm being objective) is that the GM area had a big stage, lights, and the "Volt dancers" with a bunch of cute girls dancing to music to promote the Volt (remember, a vehicle not out for at least another year!). There were a couple of Volt prototypes/mules on the stage as well. No other make in any area had any dancers that I saw. Honda did have a cute girl standing on the turntables for each car, that was about the extent of the blatant stuff.
This is the new GM? Looks just like the old GM to me.
Yeah! I can depend on my GM cars to get me to and from work unlike the other two!
The '05 Jag X-Type I have, has had nothing fail on it the 2 years I've owned it (just normal maintenance like oil changes, and shaking the dust off the air-filter).
GM uses show to help boost Calif. sales
LOS ANGELES -- Cadillac and Chevrolet, seeking credibility in import-loving California, chose the Los Angeles show to unveil important new vehicles.
Cadillac rolled out the CTS Coupe, and Chevrolet introduced the compact Cruze. Both brands have lost share and suffered bigger sales declines in California than in the rest of the nation.
....The Cruze is taking aim at the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla, said Margaret Brooks, marketing director for small cars at GM. "This is a great small-car market," she said.
She said the Cruze will have the roominess and amenities of a mid-sized car and deliver 40 mpg. Chevrolet dealers will get extensive training before the vehicle goes on sale the third quarter of next year.
In the first nine months of the year, Chevy sales fell 43 percent in California, compared with 32 percent nationwide. In the same period, Cadillac sales dropped 55 percent in California, compared to a 44 percent decline nationwide. Its market share was 0.7 percent, down from 1.0 percent.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20091207/RETAIL03/312079981/1113
California does love its Civics and Corollas... :-P
Down 55% this year alone in California??? GM is almost out of the car business in California, not sure if the LA show will do anything to reverse their fortunes. I kinda doubt it, people don't buy Caddys here they buy Mercedes and Lexus.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not sure why that's a bad thing. I remember seeing Farah Fawcett at the Detroit Auto Show with a leopard, tiger, lion, whatever the live animal was, for Ford Motor Company, Lincoln-Mercury to be specific perching on top of the sign.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A true December to Remember would be a trip to the Middle Kingdom where the good Buicks are built. I wonder if Buick will start offering China Delivery in the future?
DO IT!!!!! She'll give you a December to remember, as well. (and yes, you CAN name it after me 9 months from now) :P
>lights, and the "Volt dancers" with a bunch of cute girls dancing to music to promote the Volt
I am not sure how that's a bad thing.
I recall the Detroit Auto Show many years ago when Farah Fawcett was on stage with a cougar and a Lincoln-Mercury sign. The cat perched up on top of the sign just as it does in the commercials.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't see how you can make the "Brooks Bros." comparison w/ Buick and Lexus, as the Lacrosse DOES now compare favorably to the ES 350, and the Enclave is as luxurious as anything in it's class, and offers much MORE CUV for the dollar than the RX.
You may have a point there:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison?styleid=101158053&styl- eid=101209998&styleid=101201392&styleid=101215197&styleid=101175722&maxvehicles=- 5&refid=&op=3&tab=features
If you notice, there is a $12-1500 difference between the Equinox and the CRV and RAV4. More w/ the Escape and Rogue. Not a BIG difference in standard equiptment, unless the 6 sp auto vs the 4 sp in the RAV or 5 sp in the CRV and the OnStar mean something.
When you load them up;
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison?styleid=101158468&styl- eid=101210004&styleid=101201396&styleid=101215199&styleid=101175726&maxvehicles=- 5&refid=&op=3&tab=features
The gap closes somewhat. Yes, the Nav is standard in the CRV and optional in the Equinox, but add the nav in the Equinox, and the OnStar will look up a location and download the directions to your nav, or if you do a pre trip on your home computer, you can download the Mapquest right to the nav from your home computer.
There are other things available you can look up yourselves, but as long as they sell (and they are) and there is limited cash on the hood, that is a good thing.
We shall see.
Prestige: because a Casio keeps great time, there's no reason for anyone to buy a watch over $100 right? That $500 or $1,000 watch is no better? They all make keep the time correctly, but why do people buy more expensive watches?
Customer treatment: Is the dealership experience the same?
Bankruptcy: Do you care if your vehicle is subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer, and supports an obstinant GM-culture?
Supercar image: Does Buick produce any supercars?
Customers: people looking to buy a Lexus are not cross-shopping with Buick, despite if the cars are close in functionality. JCPenney may sell nearly as fine a suit as Brooks Bros., but people will still prefer the Brooks Bros. name.
Enclave: If I was interested it would have to be AWD. That take sthe price over $40K + options. Now let's see I could buy a BMW X3 with free 4yr maintenance and get 7% and pick it up in Europe. OR - I could even order a base Porsche Cayenne, which is definitely more luxurious and capable in rough-going than an Enclave.
Reliability
The 2010 Chevrolet Equinox reliability score of 5.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
The 2010 Honda CR-V reliability score of 9.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).
May the Best Car Win! :shades:
That's why I bought the CR-V...reputation.
Regards,
OW
2010 BEST RESALE VALUE: TOP 10 MODELS
-------------------------------------
Audi A5 MINI Cooper
BMW M3 MINI Cooper Clubman
Chevrolet Camaro SS Toyota Prius
Chevrolet Corvette Toyota RAV4
Honda CR-V Toyota Tacoma
May the Best Car Win!
Regards,
OW
I wouldn't say that it is arrogant. I would say GM has no choice but to follow this pricing strategy.
Let's say the demand of the car is higher than anticipated after the product launch. Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Hyundai will adjust the production of the car at its (more robotic) plants to meet the demand; which is what a producer is supposed to do.
Now, GM doesn't like doing that because doing so the managers need to talk to to the real boss at the union hall to obtain authorization to increase the shift at one plant and reduce the shift at the other. The union will ask something for return, like extra vacation or higher overtime pay. Management at GM would rather add/remove the incentive to manipulate the volume and keep it manageable.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)