"......GM: I saw an ad last night stating that the Malibu starts at $22K+ Wow! I really think GM needs to figure out how to sell more cars in the $15K range; that's where the market is at in this economy. "
$15K, eh??? Tell me, just WHO sells a NEW midsize sedan for $15K??? Those Malibu LS' are advertised around here w/ an MSRP of $22700 for $17988. The Camry, which has an MSRP of about $1000 less, is advertised for about $18795. THAT is about as cheap as you will find an auto Camry. Where the Camry ends up with the price advantage is a 36 month lease w/ $2K down is $168/mo., whereas the same lease on the Malibu is $200/mo.
I had a 1992 Coupe DeVille. It was the best looking car I have ever owned. It cost me more in repairs than all of my other cars combined. The quality was not equal to my 2 New Yorkers, Concorde or Intrepid.
The GLS, SE, and Limited can be had for much less than MSRP. A dealer in the Chicago area is selling 2010 Sonata GLS 4-cylinder w/Premium Package for less than $18K. A neighbor just bought a 2009 GLS 4-cylinder w/Premium Package for $16.5K. That's an excellent price for a very decent new car.
3 of the big chain stores here told me they couldn't align my S-Type. I've had problems with several of them not being able to balance tires - even after multiple tries.The problem, I was told by one of their former employees, is that they're scrimping on equipment calibration and software subcriptions for the balancers/alignment machines to save money. Jag changed the alignment specs on the X types a couple of times through the model run, and, many of the shops don't have the updates. Maybe they're better in your area. Here, when my S needed new tries, I had the dealer buy the tires, mount and balance, and do a 4 wheel alignment. It cost me about $50 more than the other quotes I was getting, but, it was done perfectly the first time.
Yup the gear oil in the supercharger snout needs to be changed about every 60k or so and almost no one ever does it. Its easy to do if you have the right tools and impossible if you don't. There is a little fill and check plug on the snout of the supercharger that is an allen head bolt. You just remove that when the SC is warm, not cold and not hot you want it warm. Then you suck the old oil out with a hand pump or vacuum operated pump.Replace with the correct spec of SYNTHETIC, I don't remember the spec but several oils meet it, oil and you are all good to go.
Tighten allen head bolt back up snugly that Supercharger is aluminum so don't put a lot of torque on it. I am sure there is a torque spec for that bolt but I don't remember it either. Because all of this is aluminum is why you do it when it is warm and not hot. Better chance of cross threading and stripping the threads with a hot SC. You don't want to do it cold because you won't get all the junk out of the oil that sinks to the bottom and that oil is hard to pump out when it is cold.
You will pay me back? Maybe GM should have me stand at the end of the assembly line and bless every car. Maybe they'll build the St. Lemko Buick Plant in Philadelphia in my honor?
Yeah, if you don't put anything down and stretch the payments out that long, you will have a $500+ payment. For a Chevy? I don't play that! I paid less than $500 a month on a new Cadillac. Shoot, people who can't pay their utilities but are eating out even once a week have pretty messed-up priorities. They definitely should not be even thinking about buying a new car. If I were in that poor a financial shape, I'd go out and buy a nice solid hooptie for cash and be done with it.
32,000 on a less than one year-old car is an awful lot of miles. Who was the previous owner, the Fuller Brush man? I saw a drop-dead gorgeous 2004 Park Avenue Ultra in that same White Diamond color as my old Cadillac Seville STS. It only had 17K miles on it, but they wanted ridiculous money for it! ($24K)! :surprise:
Yeesh!!! I don't even like stretching out a car payment for five years! I try to pay it off in three if I can. Financing for 72-84 months is only going to guarantee you'll be so buried you'll have to dig upwards to see the devil. I don't care what car you buy. Still, there are people who will do this. When I think about that car payment, I think about all the things I could be doing with that money instead.
32,000 on a less than one year-old car is an awful lot of miles. Who was the previous owner, the Fuller Brush man?
Well I'm guessing it might've been a rental or in a business fleet or something. But, anyway, I'm not going to get a chance to look at it, because that one-time-fling I had last night with the 2000 Park Ave is turning out to be more like friends-with-benefits...I signed on the dotted line today!
Unfortunately, I can't pick up the car until Monday. They were about to let me go with it, but as the salesman was looking around for the second key, he found it in the service department. Turns out the car still needs a little work to pass inspection. They'll have it done by Monday evening, and they're putting in a new battery as well.
I took a couple pics of it, but unfortunately can't find the adaptor to get the pics of my camera. I'll get 'em posted before too long, though!
Congrats... you will like that car alot. The supercharged 3800 is a decent engine. My buddy had that in a GP GTP and the car was pretty quick and had nice grunt down low. Being an "Ultra" model I am sure its loaded to the gills.
Well, at $850, I have to walk away. Too expensive (well the divorce, not the car).
On second thought, $850 to be single and be my only posession. Hmmm. I could live in it. Hmmm......... Just park at work at nite..........strip clubs are only a quarter mile away.........Hmmmm. gotta think this one through.
That car is the EXACT same color as the coupee'. Hmmmm.....
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has just announced a major recall covering nearly 1.5 million General Motors passenger cars from the late 90's and early 2000s. The recall affects various Buick, Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, and Pontiac models equipped with normally aspirated versions of GM's much-utilized 3800 3.8-liter V6.
an article that flaunted the virtues of the 300+ HP V6's that 5 car manufacturers offer these days. I was not expecting a horiz opposed 4 by Subaru to round out the lot. It was a V6 article that touted 29 mpg Hwy Mustangs and 30 mpg Camaros. Why finish the article with a 2.5 turbo 4 that runs $35k to start?
When they mentioned that the Subaru had the V6's all beat on Torque, and then mentioned that torque was what you needed to get off at the green light, and then said that the 290 ft lbs turbo was the torque leader of the bunch, I realized that 14 years have gone by and cars have been made better runners on a race track but not on the street. My '96 Buick has 282 ft-lbs and gets 30 mpg hwy with a push rod V6 with more seating room and trunk room than any of the lesser torque 2010 offerings that are heralded in the article.
I will turn 175k miles on it this week. 88k on it when bought used and 87k put on by me. I check the SC oil every 20-30k miles and top it off with usually just a few drops. I dread the day that one of the belts goes bad. pass side motor mount has to be removed to change a belt. I've been told that if SC locks up, cut off the belt and live with the drop down to 205 HP, if the car is as used as mine. Supposedly, the twin screw type SC will still allow air to flow freely into the intake manifold.
Seriously 15 seconds of google searching found that to jog my memory on why the engine fires happened.
You have to have a pretty serious case of coincidences to make a fire happen in one of these cars. First their needs to be a leak from a gasket above the exhaust manifold heat shield on the driver's side. Then you have to brake hard enough to slosh oil up out of that leak or off the edge of the gasket and land on the shield. It needs to be enough oil to drip past the heat shield and get to the exhaust manifold itself and then the exhaust has to be very hot. When you sold 1.4 million cars with that design and being 3800 engines they will never die so more opportunity for them to age and something like this happen.
87000 miles of using regular. Pinged once at 2800 elev in W. Pa. so I put mid grade in that tank. 30 mpg hwy on trip with regular. Tried premium and mid grade when I first got it but saw no mpg gain and couldn't tell any difference in the flat, straight great plains.
I've never been by a burning car of GM, ever, in person. I've seen many on fire, from other makes, over the million plus miles. I knew someone who's Fiero caught fire about 22 yrs ago from a 27 years ago design. This, in a metro area of near 2 million, where I see a few car fires every year. Don't see the big anti-GM lean taken from these experiences. And to involve the supercharger in the mix?
I always felt a big problem for GM was consistency. It seemed like two people could have the same car with entirely different results. One would be a lemon and the other provided miles of great trouble free driving. It was that experience and risk that eventually moved me away from their products.
They had a LaCrosse CXL in the showroom, with the 3.0 and sunroof, for around $32-33K. I sat in it. Nice car, but I just prefer the extra room of the Park Ave. Plus, it's a nice feeling to just be able to pay the $8100K out the door and be done with it, rather than that be a down payment and still probably be stuck with around $450 or so per month for the next 5 years!
The salesman told me, though, that the previous owner of this Park Ave, a 65 year old lady, traded it in on a LaCrosse CXS.
$15K, eh??? Tell me, just WHO sells a NEW midsize sedan for $15K??? Those Malibu LS' are advertised around here w/ an MSRP of $22700 for $17988. The Camry, which has an MSRP of about $1000 less, is advertised for about $18795.
I think you and British Rover missed my point that GM has LOST the war in this market. Not just the last year or 2, but since the 80's. GM has lost the market on these types of cars, and as their market-share got smaller w/their high legacy costs, the probability of losing $ has increased. GM has lost this market, despite its claims over 20+ years that they have competitive cars! That's the POINT. A new Lacross or a new Regal is not going to change this!
GM needs to abandon as quickly as possible these mid-size markets, or they will continue to lose $. GM needs to find a new market, and if I were looking at where the U.S. economy is headed, I'd get into really inexpensive vehicles. Because of the restrictions our government puts on standard 4-wheel cars, I'd design vehicles that can skirt around those rules. Make vehicles that lie in function between motorcycles and cars; there seems to be a fairly good gap there in terms of functionality and price. My market would be the working-poor, commuter looking for high-mileage, people who want something fun or quirky, and college-age students. I'd target the market that right now can't afford a new car, because of the high prices.
And I'll say it again: If GM continues to try and compete with every existing auto maker, with their current type vehicles - Cruze, Malibu, Silverado, Buick, Cadillac; GM will continue to lose $ each year and GM will only exist because the U.S. taxpayer continues to fund it each and every year.
As the saying goes, people buy horsepower and drive torque. The advance comes from getting that same torque from a significantly smaller engine, which is important for countries with engine displacement taxes.
IIRC, that supercharger on the 3800s was a regular old Roots blower without any sort of intercooling. I wonder if a good EMS, intake, and exhaust on the stock engine would net as much power without the s/c.
Good luck with your car...smart buy! My Mom has a 2001 non-sc BPA...best car she's owned...life-long GM owner. She is always pushing me to buy Toyota now!
"......30 mpg hwy on trip with regular. Tried premium and mid grade when I first got it but saw no mpg gain and couldn't tell any difference in the flat, straight great plains. "
30 MPG is all you get??? You must really lay into that thing. I have got as good as 33 w/ mine.
As the saying goes, people buy horsepower and drive torque. The advance comes from getting that same torque from a significantly smaller engine, which is important for countries with engine displacement taxes.
That and proper gearing. A high revving engine can be geared to perform as well (or at least as good) as larger engine with poor gearing (or what i would describe less than ideal gearing). Such as a 4cyl or small v6 with a 6 speed or CVT vs a large v6 with a 4 speed trans.
Example: Before my wife had her 07 GP with 3800/4speed she had an 06 Ford 500 with a 3L w/ a CVT. To 30 the GP is quicker. A combination of the extra torque of the 3800 and Ford's AISIN CVT's weird sluggishness from a dead stop.
Above 30mph the 500 was noticeably quicker and more responsive as it could always provide a gear ratio to allow the 3L v6 to put out max power. Whether you were going 40, 50, 60, 70,etc. when you floored it, it would rev to 6000rpm and you had 200hp available for acceleration at all of those speeds.
OTOH, with the 3800 having only 4 gear ratios, at certain speeds the gear ratio spread means the much of the time the engine can't be at peak torque at 4000rpm and/or peak hp at 5,200 rpm (it still provides decent acceleration due to good low to mid range torque output). So a wider selection of ratios definitely helps performance while maintaining fuel economy.
I think that's why many 4cyl vehicles haven't gotten the best hwy fuel economy. They've been geared to perform around town (with 3 and 4 speed transmissions) which meant they run a higher hwy rpm than necessary. Look at what's happened to the Malibu's 4 cyl fuel economy when the 6 speed trans was added.
The 6speed trans is a huge benefit to any engine over a 4speed. My Expedition has a 6 speed with 3.73 axle ratio. My Suburban also had 3.73 gear ratio but had a 4 speed. The Expe has shorter gearing until 6th gear which actually provides a taller o/d ratio. Ex. 20mph in 1st gear is 4k rpm in the Expe, vs which would equate to around 30 in the Suburban. 70mph in 6th is 1900rpm in the Expe vs 2200 @70 (IIRC) with the Suburban. Those lower ratio's in the Expe makes towing my boat and travel trailer easier, the engine is more able to stay in it's powerband at a higher range of speeds (add that Ford's 5.4 has more torque at lower rpm) and get's a bit better fuel economy doing so.
I'd expect the new Suburban with 5.3 6speed combo to perform better than the previous 4speed model. Particularly towing where the previous 4speed had ratios that were way to far apart for towing. Pulling up steep hills meant running second at 50mph @ over 4000rpm vs. my Expedition going up the same hill in 4th gear @60 running 3k rpm. With the 4speed, 2nd gear is a bit short to run 60, but 3rd gear is to tall to pull up a hill, so you have to decide go a bit slower and run a manageable rpm, or just go 60 an let the engine scream at near 5k rpm. Sometimes, I just have to manualy select 2nd in the Suburban, because as soon as it shifted to 3rd, it would immediately lose speed. Then you had to floor it for a downshift back to second.
You should be around here and see all the wise people who have purchased used PAs and other H-bodies to drive who are under 40. They are those who understand good mileage for the body size and room as well as durability in the long run.
>with the 3800 having only 4 gear ratios, at certain speeds the gear ratio spread means the much of the time the engine can't be at peak torque at 4000rpm
I disagree with the conclusion of lack of torque from the 3800. Indeed its strength is its broad and relatively flat torque available from slightly above idle for the normal driver. I don't see much of a torque peak at 4000 rpm.
This makes for a great driveable car with 4-speeds in a transmission that's dependable and easily repairable and replaceable. Of course, I've never had one give trouble and needing replacement because it's a GM.
For those who complain they will never buy a GM because it took loans from the g'vment... are you not going to drive on a road built with CAT equipment or in a building erected with CAT equipment? A local township, county, and state is funding a huge part of their building a distribution center in this county. They gave them 163 acres of prime location land (at an interstate exchange), free, paid for by taxpayers. They forgive property taxes on the building and improvements for a decade or more. The state threw in money. The county threw in money. The bad thing is the industrial park for manufacuring is now completely taken over by a service industry with low-paying jobs. It was originally planned for several small industries generating manufacturing jobs.
They're being subsidized. It reminds me of the plant in Alabama or Mississippi years ago for building a foreign brand, BMW or Mercedes, where the money that was thrown in was on the order of $250,000 for each job it would eventually, hopefully give. I'm thinking it was far beyond $250,000. I'm sure someone knows here which maker it was who received all that money.
So did people refuse to buy those vehicles which were the beneficiaries of the largess?
This makes for a great driveable car with 4-speeds in a transmission that's dependable and easily repairable
The only thing I have found with most (all?) 3800/4spd combos is that at around 65 - 70 4th gear is so tall (obviouly why these engines do so well on the hwy) that it tends to downshift on lesser inclines that I think it should. I observed this way back on my Olds 88 (1998) and on some GPs/Regals/Monte Carlos I had as rentals through the years.
The 3800 is a darn fine powertrain considering how long its been around. Fairly punchy, adequate in most of the vehicles they put it in (except PA (non S/C) / Lucerne). Its just not as refined at higher RPM than GMs own 3.6, or the Japanese 3.5s.
Well, the non-sc 3.8L PA, I would not label the non-sc 3.8L PA as quick but it certainly gets out of it's own way. Given the extremely respectable FE it delivers and based on it's strond dependability and cabin/trunck space, it is one of the top GM's in the last 10 years to own afaic. Still boat-like for my tastes but great for Mom!
with the 3800 having only 4 gear ratios, at certain speeds the gear ratio spread means the much of the time the engine can't be at peak torque at 4000rpm
That came out wrong. I didn't mean to say the 3800 has lack of torque, no doubt it it has a flat torque curve, but you still need rpm for HP, which is needed for max power. And the fact is a 3800 will get smoked by most other V6's, maybe not at 2k rpm, but with more gear ratios and more torque at higher rpm, they provide more flexible performance. A 3.6 powered Malibu will far out perform my wife's 3800 GP, by nearly 2 seconds 0-60. I've driven a 3.6 powered Aura and it is stronger across the whole rpm range vs a 3800 GP. Why? Gearing that takes better advantage of the 3.6's power output.
Looking at the chart, where is the most power being generated? It's not at 2000 rpm. Yes, at 2000rpm it is developing enough torque to move a car (better than most v6'sprobably), but it's still not going to put you in the back of the seat like it would at 4k rpm. If you look at the chart, the 3800 performs very well between say 2k-4k rpm. Extra gear ratios would take advantage of that even more, is my point. Why do diesel engines which produce tons of torque still use lots of gears, some trucks up to 18? It's to take advantage of the limited rpm range of the engine. You can't find a diesel p/u w/o a 6 speed anymore because they perform better with more ratios. That's the point it's taken me to long to get to. I wasn't trying to say a 3800 doesn't produce much torque.
Not only the C-11 loans but mainly the vehicles themselves and the pricing. There are many reasons not to buy a GM when the value at another marquee is simply way better.
The whole GM story is one of failure and disregard for proper business decisions, strategy and action by the entire organization. It'll take a long time to change this, as demonstrated by the vast changes that are in fruition at the moment and only really starting in July. That means the vehicles and how they are built will need to be scrutinized as the new entity takes shape in a very competitive market and in tough economic times. Having the Government fiddling around with it is a major cause of concern brought about by these past failures.
Well, the non-sc 3.8L PA, I would not label the non-sc 3.8L PA as quick but it certainly gets out of it's own way.
IIRC, the last gen P/A with a n/a 3800 is around 9 seconds 0-60. Certainly not pokey, but but certainly not as quick as most of the competition or even most SUVs.
Even the SC Park Ave's are in the 7.5-7.9 range which still is quite a bit slower than a v6 Camry/Accord/Malibu/Altima which are mainly all in the 6 second range. Man back 20 years ago 9 seconds was relatively quick.
Congratulations, andre! Looks like the previous owner took very good care of it from the picture. It also looks to be about the same color as the 'Trep. I see it has the heads-up display. You're going to be very pleased with the fuel economy if it's anything like my '88 Park Ave.
Comments
$15K, eh??? Tell me, just WHO sells a NEW midsize sedan for $15K??? Those Malibu LS' are advertised around here w/ an MSRP of $22700 for $17988. The Camry, which has an MSRP of about $1000 less, is advertised for about $18795. THAT is about as cheap as you will find an auto Camry. Where the Camry ends up with the price advantage is a 36 month lease w/ $2K down is $168/mo., whereas the same lease on the Malibu is $200/mo.
Even the Sonata is $16K
to my 2 New Yorkers, Concorde or Intrepid.
Ask them to have the oil in the supercharger changed (don't ask me how, I dunno) It's supposed to be done every 60K or so.
Regards:
OldCEM
Tighten allen head bolt back up snugly that Supercharger is aluminum so don't put a lot of torque on it. I am sure there is a torque spec for that bolt but I don't remember it either. Because all of this is aluminum is why you do it when it is warm and not hot. Better chance of cross threading and stripping the threads with a hot SC. You don't want to do it cold because you won't get all the junk out of the oil that sinks to the bottom and that oil is hard to pump out when it is cold.
Well I'm guessing it might've been a rental or in a business fleet or something. But, anyway, I'm not going to get a chance to look at it, because that one-time-fling I had last night with the 2000 Park Ave is turning out to be more like friends-with-benefits...I signed on the dotted line today!
Unfortunately, I can't pick up the car until Monday. They were about to let me go with it, but as the salesman was looking around for the second key, he found it in the service department. Turns out the car still needs a little work to pass inspection. They'll have it done by Monday evening, and they're putting in a new battery as well.
I took a couple pics of it, but unfortunately can't find the adaptor to get the pics of my camera. I'll get 'em posted before too long, though!
Regards,
OW
Congrats... you will like that car alot. The supercharged 3800 is a decent engine. My buddy had that in a GP GTP and the car was pretty quick and had nice grunt down low. Being an "Ultra" model I am sure its loaded to the gills.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Hooptie???? I know where there is a '79 Park Ave. coupee' for $850
Yahoooo!!! Welcome to the dark side! Congrats and good luck, even though you wont need it.
On second thought, $850 to be single and be my only posession. Hmmm. I could live in it. Hmmm......... Just park at work at nite..........strip clubs are only a quarter mile away.........Hmmmm. gotta think this one through.
That car is the EXACT same color as the coupee'. Hmmmm.....
Andre - did you tell them you wanted the supercharger's oil changed?
Congrats! You'll be happy with that and lemko will still speak to you!
link title
Uhh that would be wrong.
When they mentioned that the Subaru had the V6's all beat on Torque, and then mentioned that torque was what you needed to get off at the green light, and then said that the 290 ft lbs turbo was the torque leader of the bunch, I realized that 14 years have gone by and cars have been made better runners on a race track but not on the street. My '96 Buick has 282 ft-lbs and gets 30 mpg hwy with a push rod V6 with more seating room and trunk room than any of the lesser torque 2010 offerings that are heralded in the article.
I will turn 175k miles on it this week. 88k on it when bought used and 87k put on by me. I check the SC oil every 20-30k miles and top it off with usually just a few drops. I dread the day that one of the belts goes bad. pass side motor mount has to be removed to change a belt. I've been told that if SC locks up, cut off the belt and live with the drop down to 205 HP, if the car is as used as mine. Supposedly, the twin screw type SC will still allow air to flow freely into the intake manifold.
You have to have a pretty serious case of coincidences to make a fire happen in one of these cars. First their needs to be a leak from a gasket above the exhaust manifold heat shield on the driver's side. Then you have to brake hard enough to slosh oil up out of that leak or off the edge of the gasket and land on the shield. It needs to be enough oil to drip past the heat shield and get to the exhaust manifold itself and then the exhaust has to be very hot. When you sold 1.4 million cars with that design and being 3800 engines they will never die so more opportunity for them to age and something like this happen.
The salesman told me, though, that the previous owner of this Park Ave, a 65 year old lady, traded it in on a LaCrosse CXS.
I think you and British Rover missed my point that GM has LOST the war in this market. Not just the last year or 2, but since the 80's. GM has lost the market on these types of cars, and as their market-share got smaller w/their high legacy costs, the probability of losing $ has increased. GM has lost this market, despite its claims over 20+ years that they have competitive cars! That's the POINT. A new Lacross or a new Regal is not going to change this!
GM needs to abandon as quickly as possible these mid-size markets, or they will continue to lose $. GM needs to find a new market, and if I were looking at where the U.S. economy is headed, I'd get into really inexpensive vehicles. Because of the restrictions our government puts on standard 4-wheel cars, I'd design vehicles that can skirt around those rules. Make vehicles that lie in function between motorcycles and cars; there seems to be a fairly good gap there in terms of functionality and price. My market would be the working-poor, commuter looking for high-mileage, people who want something fun or quirky, and college-age students. I'd target the market that right now can't afford a new car, because of the high prices.
And I'll say it again: If GM continues to try and compete with every existing auto maker, with their current type vehicles - Cruze, Malibu, Silverado, Buick, Cadillac; GM will continue to lose $ each year and GM will only exist because the U.S. taxpayer continues to fund it each and every year.
IIRC, that supercharger on the 3800s was a regular old Roots blower without any sort of intercooling. I wonder if a good EMS, intake, and exhaust on the stock engine would net as much power without the s/c.
Regards,
OW
30 MPG is all you get??? You must really lay into that thing. I have got as good as 33 w/ mine.
You and Lemko are now the only two people I know (well sort of anyway) that are under 65 and willingly purchased a PA;)
That and proper gearing. A high revving engine can be geared to perform as well (or at least as good) as larger engine with poor gearing (or what i would describe less than ideal gearing). Such as a 4cyl or small v6 with a 6 speed or CVT vs a large v6 with a 4 speed trans.
Example: Before my wife had her 07 GP with 3800/4speed she had an 06 Ford 500 with a 3L w/ a CVT. To 30 the GP is quicker. A combination of the extra torque of the 3800 and Ford's AISIN CVT's weird sluggishness from a dead stop.
Above 30mph the 500 was noticeably quicker and more responsive as it could always provide a gear ratio to allow the 3L v6 to put out max power. Whether you were going 40, 50, 60, 70,etc. when you floored it, it would rev to 6000rpm and you had 200hp available for acceleration at all of those speeds.
OTOH, with the 3800 having only 4 gear ratios, at certain speeds the gear ratio spread means the much of the time the engine can't be at peak torque at 4000rpm and/or peak hp at 5,200 rpm (it still provides decent acceleration due to good low to mid range torque output). So a wider selection of ratios definitely helps performance while maintaining fuel economy.
I think that's why many 4cyl vehicles haven't gotten the best hwy fuel economy. They've been geared to perform around town (with 3 and 4 speed transmissions) which meant they run a higher hwy rpm than necessary. Look at what's happened to the Malibu's 4 cyl fuel economy when the 6 speed trans was added.
The 6speed trans is a huge benefit to any engine over a 4speed. My Expedition has a 6 speed with 3.73 axle ratio. My Suburban also had 3.73 gear ratio but had a 4 speed. The Expe has shorter gearing until 6th gear which actually provides a taller o/d ratio. Ex. 20mph in 1st gear is 4k rpm in the Expe, vs which would equate to around 30 in the Suburban. 70mph in 6th is 1900rpm in the Expe vs 2200 @70 (IIRC) with the Suburban. Those lower ratio's in the Expe makes towing my boat and travel trailer easier, the engine is more able to stay in it's powerband at a higher range of speeds (add that Ford's 5.4 has more torque at lower rpm) and get's a bit better fuel economy doing so.
I'd expect the new Suburban with 5.3 6speed combo to perform better than the previous 4speed model. Particularly towing where the previous 4speed had ratios that were way to far apart for towing. Pulling up steep hills meant running second at 50mph @ over 4000rpm vs. my Expedition going up the same hill in 4th gear @60 running 3k rpm. With the 4speed, 2nd gear is a bit short to run 60, but 3rd gear is to tall to pull up a hill, so you have to decide go a bit slower and run a manageable rpm, or just go 60 an let the engine scream at near 5k rpm. Sometimes, I just have to manualy select 2nd in the Suburban, because as soon as it shifted to 3rd, it would immediately lose speed. Then you had to floor it for a downshift back to second.
You should be around here and see all the wise people who have purchased used PAs and other H-bodies to drive who are under 40. They are those who understand good mileage for the body size and room as well as durability in the long run.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I disagree with the conclusion of lack of torque from the 3800. Indeed its strength is its broad and relatively flat torque available from slightly above idle for the normal driver. I don't see much of a torque peak at 4000 rpm.
This makes for a great driveable car with 4-speeds in a transmission that's dependable and easily repairable and replaceable. Of course, I've never had one give trouble and needing replacement because it's a GM.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
are you not going to drive on a road built with CAT equipment or in a building erected with CAT equipment? A local township, county, and state is funding a huge part of their building a distribution center in this county. They gave them 163 acres of prime location land (at an interstate exchange), free, paid for by taxpayers. They forgive property taxes on the building and improvements for a decade or more. The state threw in money. The county threw in money. The bad thing is the industrial park for manufacuring is now completely taken over by a service industry with low-paying jobs. It was originally planned for several small industries generating manufacturing jobs.
They're being subsidized. It reminds me of the plant in Alabama or Mississippi years ago for building a foreign brand, BMW or Mercedes, where the money that was thrown in was on the order of $250,000 for each job it would eventually, hopefully give. I'm thinking it was far beyond $250,000. I'm sure someone knows here which maker it was who received all that money.
So did people refuse to buy those vehicles which were the beneficiaries of the largess?
CAT distribution.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The only thing I have found with most (all?) 3800/4spd combos is that at around 65 - 70 4th gear is so tall (obviouly why these engines do so well on the hwy) that it tends to downshift on lesser inclines that I think it should. I observed this way back on my Olds 88 (1998) and on some GPs/Regals/Monte Carlos I had as rentals through the years.
The 3800 is a darn fine powertrain considering how long its been around. Fairly punchy, adequate in most of the vehicles they put it in (except PA (non S/C) / Lucerne). Its just not as refined at higher RPM than GMs own 3.6, or the Japanese 3.5s.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Regards,
OW
That came out wrong. I didn't mean to say the 3800 has lack of torque, no doubt it it has a flat torque curve, but you still need rpm for HP, which is needed for max power. And the fact is a 3800 will get smoked by most other V6's, maybe not at 2k rpm, but with more gear ratios and more torque at higher rpm, they provide more flexible performance. A 3.6 powered Malibu will far out perform my wife's 3800 GP, by nearly 2 seconds 0-60. I've driven a 3.6 powered Aura and it is stronger across the whole rpm range vs a 3800 GP. Why? Gearing that takes better advantage of the 3.6's power output.
Looking at the chart, where is the most power being generated? It's not at 2000 rpm. Yes, at 2000rpm it is developing enough torque to move a car (better than most v6'sprobably), but it's still not going to put you in the back of the seat like it would at 4k rpm. If you look at the chart, the 3800 performs very well between say 2k-4k rpm. Extra gear ratios would take advantage of that even more, is my point. Why do diesel engines which produce tons of torque still use lots of gears, some trucks up to 18? It's to take advantage of the limited rpm range of the engine. You can't find a diesel p/u w/o a 6 speed anymore because they perform better with more ratios. That's the point it's taken me to long to get to. I wasn't trying to say a 3800 doesn't produce much torque.
That has nothing to do with it for me, I simply don't like most of their vehicles for a variety of reasons.
The whole GM story is one of failure and disregard for proper business decisions, strategy and action by the entire organization. It'll take a long time to change this, as demonstrated by the vast changes that are in fruition at the moment and only really starting in July. That means the vehicles and how they are built will need to be scrutinized as the new entity takes shape in a very competitive market and in tough economic times. Having the Government fiddling around with it is a major cause of concern brought about by these past failures.
Regards,
OW
IIRC, the last gen P/A with a n/a 3800 is around 9 seconds 0-60. Certainly not pokey, but but certainly not as quick as most of the competition or even most SUVs.
Even the SC Park Ave's are in the 7.5-7.9 range which still is quite a bit slower than a v6 Camry/Accord/Malibu/Altima which are mainly all in the 6 second range. Man back 20 years ago 9 seconds was relatively quick.