Personally,I just cant tolerate squeaks and rattles --just drives me mad.
Me too. GM has certainly gotten better, IMO GM vehicles in the past were some of the worst offenders. Particularly in the 80's and 90's with their small and sporty cars.
My BIL has an 88' Corvette that has 40k miles on it. He's owned it since '90 or so when he bought it with about 9k. It's the most pampered car you can imagine, yet with it's Z51 suspension, it rattles horridly and has so since it was about 3 or 4 years old. Sharp car, but build quality is horrible. Same with those Beretta's and the like. I've been in those too, and they all seemed bad in terms of rattles. A lot had to do with these cars not having a very stiff structure, thus the suspension needed to be stiffened to compensate. Thus rattles are unavoidable.
Yes, the Camry's are impressive in that regard (I can't say about 07 or newer), but the few previous gen Camry's I've sampled are incredibly solid. My MIL's 05 XLE V6 has 120k miles on it and not one squeak or rattle. It's impressively quiet. Boring, but solid. Not something I'd buy, but maybe something I'd buy for my daughter as a starter car. I test drove a Camry 4cyl and I agree they are very quiet for a 4 banger.
Accord's on the OTOH, seem as good, but IMO, they don't offer as much isolation, I think they have a stiffer ride and better handling, but road noise seems more pronounced, could be tire choice or less sound insulation (I don't know). Regardless, I prefer the driving dynamics of the Accord vs a Camry
My dad's 09 Accord EX-L v6 is very impressive. Interior design feels and looks rich, the v6 is creamy smooth (better than any domestic v6 I've sampled including GM's 3.6), and the car has a refinement not found in most cars at it's price. My dad has put 30k miles on his already and other than a flat tire, it's been perfect. One beef my mom has with it, is the front passenger seat is heated on the base only, the back portion of the seat is not heated. The drivers seat has the whole seat heated. That's cheap IMO for a car that lists for $30k.
Every BOF SUV I"ve been around has rattles. I even road in a Lexus LX470 that had some interior rattles. My Suburban rattled and while my Expedition has been better so far, it still has more rattles than I'd like. I guess with that much interior to cover and the lack of rigidity with a full frame, rattles are going to happen.
My wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse is still squeak and rattle-free after 5 years and 46K+ miles and she drives it rather aggressively. Heck, I don't remember my 1988 Buick Park Avenue rattling or squeaking much after all that time.
Most full-size GM car's I've been around haven't rattled bad if at all. It's the medium and compacts that were bad IMO.
LOL, those Park Ave's ride so soft I don't think two aluminum can's on top of each other could rattle.
My wife's 07 GP has a few, but I don't remember her '01 Impala having rattles, but she only had it to about 40k miles. I do remember the ISS and cradle issue though, and they both made noise.
My Suburban had the ISS problem too. GM must have put that defective steering shaft in just about everything back then. Annoying problem too.
Yeah, my mother's Camry is very quiet. Sadly, as normal LE model, it is probably the numbest driving 4cyl car in the world. I especially loathe the steering feel.
An the XLE v6 isn't any better, horribly over boosted and zero feedback. I equate it to Buick like.
I don't think my MIL cares about steering feel. She drove a '95 Saturn SL2 for 10 years. If you can tolerate an SL2 for that long, you can tolerate anything. Granted, an SL2 is the exact opposite of a Camry. The only 4cyl I know of that's louder than than the Saturn's was the Dodge 2.0l DOHC 150hp version with a 5speed I had in a '95 Neon sport coupe. It was headache inducing at highway speeds. I'm sure the fact that it spun nearly 4k rpm at 80mph didn't help matters. But Honda like it wasn't Fun car though.
Actually, when my MIL was looking to replace the Saturn in '05, I recommend taking a LaCrosse for a test drive, but she wouldn't even look at it. She wanted no part of owning a Buick. So I guess a Camry was the logical choice.
Yeah, my mother is the same...in her 60s, she wants smooth, quiet, economical, and reliable. It feels like a Lexus compared to her past UAW cars (Tauri), and is assembled immaculately.
When her previous car was sending signals of impending doom, I pointed out a Lucerne to her...she also said "no way". The Red Hat Society sticker in the window didn't help. It's easy to see why Buick is trying for a new audience...that captive market of 60+ people is thinking differently than in the past. They milked the oldster market for so long that people who are now getting up there themselves think the cars are too senior-citizeny for them.
It's easy to see why Buick is trying for a new audience...that captive market of 60+ people is thinking differently than in the past. They milked the oldster market for so long that people who are now getting up there themselves think the cars are too senior-citizeny for them.
That's for sure. The parent's of the boomer's always aspired for Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Cadillacs. The boomers themselves are the one's who discovered VW bugs, Honda's, Toyota's and Nissan's etc. They aspire to Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW etc. Those cars are now the gold standard.
If I mention Buick to my mom, she immediately has visions of her75 year old dad backing his Park Ave over the neighbors mailbox. She want's no part of the image whether real or not.
Kind of reminds me of my great aunt and uncle. Back in the 50's & 60's his family owned a few Buick dealerships and various other businesses. They always drove Buicks, Lincolns, and Cadillacs. As soon as he died (about 5 years ago), my great aunt traded in her Deville for an LS430. LOL. She told me uncle Bill would be rolling in his grave, but she wanted what she thought was the best.
My mother aspires to a new top of the line Jag, black on red...probably like some other early boomers who are now unwilling to drive what their parents drove. I couldn't imagine her in the highest GM car, a Caddy, even if it was a great car and she could afford it. It would make her think of something her father would drive.
Good luck to GM in trying to fix this marketing and image issue. I have to wonder if the same thing will happen to the new competition in 50 years, that is, if we even have cars in 50 years. I have to think, at least for the Europeans, it won't. I guess it kind of is for Toyota - they are in some ways the 21st century Buick.
I guess it kind of is for Toyota - they are in some ways the 21st century Buick.
It will depend on whether or not Toyota can continue to attract young buyers with solid entry level models. That's where GM went wrong. They lost the young buyers with lousy small cars. IMO, GM still doesn't have a small car that's competitive. That's why the Civic and Corolla are eating the Cobalt's Lunch. What 20-30 year old would want a Cobalt over the likes of a Civic, Corolla, or Mazda 3? Not to mention Hyundai nipping at their heels. Outside of a Cobalt SS (which I've only seen a few), the Cobalt has rental written all over it.
The upcoming Cruze will be crucial for GM, it will go along way to improving their image. Same with the new Fiesta from Ford.
Yea, my wife had to rent an Aveo when our POS Denali was in for service in 2008 because they did not have a loaner available at our POS PBGMC Dealer.
I feared for her life in that thing. Another laugher from GM to be extremely kind!
An Adair County woman died Tuesday morning after the car she was operating crashed into a line of parked vehicles at the construction site of the new bridge across Russell Creek on KY 80 East just outside of Columbia. Bridgett Karnes, age 44, of Columbia, was pronounced dead at Westlake Regional Hospital by Adair County Deputy Coroner Todd Akin at 8:46 a.m. Tuesday, a little more than an hour following the crash. The accident occurred at 7:30 a.m. when Karnes was traveling west on KY 80 in a 2007 Chevy Aveo and failed to stop at the bridge construction site. Her vehicle crashed into the rear of an unoccupied pickup truck parked in the roadway at the construction site, causing a chain reaction that involved three other vehicles parked in front of the pickup.
Good luck to GM in trying to fix this marketing and image issue. I have to wonder if the same thing will happen to the new competition in 50 years, that is, if we even have cars in 50 years. I have to think, at least for the Europeans, it won't. I guess it kind of is for Toyota - they are in some ways the 21st century Buick.
Good points. Even if we assume the newer GM models are/will be excellent, the image is a really tough thing to shake. I know that if say, the 2010 LaCrosse was exactly what I liked in a car (luxurious yet sharp handling, great interior), I would still probably not buy Buick because of a) image; and b) long-term concerns about reliability of both the vehicle and the company. That's one reason I've thought that GM should rename itself - IMHO the brand is just THAT damaged.
Toyota seems to be heading the way of GM in some regards, but not as bad (yet?). They are getting a bit cheaper, and as they expand market share I wonder if they are slipping a bit. Complacency is tough to fight when you are on top. Sort of like the U.S.
I'm a senior citizen now, but, you got me thinking about what my friends and I drove in High School (graduated in 1964). Most kids in my area rode the school bus. I went to a big (for this area) high school, and, there was no student parking at all. We had to park on downtown pay lots as close to school as we could get. A fiend and I traded rides to school in our cars. I owned a 1937 Dodge coupe, and, the other kid drove a 1932 Model A Ford. Some other friends commuted to school in a 49 Plymouth 4 door and a a 57 T-Bird. My parents, and the grandparents had Oldsmobiles of various sizes as the primary drivers. However, my father was buying Plymouths, Dodges, and Jeeps for business drivers back then. Dad stuck with Olds until 1977, then, defected over to BMW. He just decided one evening to trade his Olds Toronado for a new 530i.
In the latest issue of Consumer Reports, a Cadillac placed higher than a Mercedes for best luxury car. The magazine seemed so floored by its result that it played that news of its finding higher in the article in the February issue than the fact that it was a pair of Infinitis, the M35 and M35X, that were better than both, at the top of the list.
Yes, the $50,995 Cadillac CTS was considered better than the Mercedes-Benz E350 -- not to mention the BMW, Acura, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar and Volvo. The magazine, famous for its independence, calls the CTS "a solid performer" but adds that it cannot recommend the car for sale because its reliability isnotoriously "spotty."
"GM reliability continues to be uneven," the magazine says. "The Malibu and Traverse were reliable out of the box, but the Enclave and Acadia had problems in the first couple of years."
Despite one of the better models, GM still lacks reliability. Period.
Lacks reliability? Cadillac and Buick cars have been reliably getting me to and from work for almost 30 years! My 1989 Cadillac Brougham which I will have for 21 years and 158K miles come the end of the month has never been in for a non-scheduled maintenance event.
Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to. Ever hear of the "finagle factor?"
Can't disagree there, but to say Cadillacs never break is a huge stretch or "finagle factor" of the truth.
Just do a little research on the timing chain issues with the 3.6. Seems they are needing to be replaced at fairly significant rate. A boating buddy of mine had to have the timing chain replaced at 35k on his wife's 08 CTS. Ironically the dealer gave him an Acura TL as a loaner? Which you'd be glad to hear his wife didn't like.
The timing chain issue is severe enough to warrant a TSB and a redesign of the chain for current models.
I didn't say they "never break" but I never had one break in which I couldn't get to or from my destination which would affect reliability. Reliability means to me, "the car won't leave you stranded." If things broke on my cars, it was often due to my own carelessness. I once blew out the right front speaker on my 1994 Cadillac DeVille because I crank up the volume on the radio.
I don't care much for the current TL because of the bizzare styling. The front end looks like it was designed by the studio that draws Pokemon and the back end looks like it was designed by the studio that draws the Transformers.
It will depend on whether or not Toyota can continue to attract young buyers with solid entry level models. That's where GM went wrong. They lost the young buyers with lousy small cars. IMO, GM still doesn't have a small car that's competitive. That's why the Civic and Corolla are eating the Cobalt's Lunch. What 20-30 year old would want a Cobalt over the likes of a Civic, Corolla, or Mazda 3? Not to mention Hyundai nipping at their heels. Outside of a Cobalt SS (which I've only seen a few), the Cobalt has rental written all over it.
The upcoming Cruze will be crucial for GM, it will go along way to improving their image. Same with the new Fiesta from Ford.
I know the rental Cobalt I had once was pretty poor so I will never take a look at that (I'm 47). Will probably be in the market for a small car this Spring and leading my wishes is the safe bet: Corolla. I'm not sure when the Fiesta and Cruze will be out but probably too late for me to take a look at them. I believe the Fiesta might be too small anyway.
I didn't say they "never break" but I never had one break in which I couldn't get to or from my destination which would affect reliability.
I've been left stranded 3 times. I had an '85 Tempo that my dad gave me and a CV joint failed leaving me dead on the side of the road. I was also left stranded with my grandpa with his '92 Buick Roadmaster with a bad starter. I bought a new '98 Ford SVT Contour that developed a short to the fuel pump at 5k miles or so and left me stranded in the middle of nowhere. Even my Suburban which I hope will be the worst vehicle I've owned never left me stranded. When the trans failed, it was still drivable, but barely.
No, I consider a failed transmission, even one that allows you to barely limp home, a reliability problem. I'm not afraid to jump in any of my GM vehicles with the fear some catastrophic failure is going to leave me stranded or barely able to make it home. The one transmission failure I did experience was in a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis. I did manage to get home, but barely. I left the car on the street across from my house because I didn't want to park it in its normal spot behind the garage where I kept my Cadillacs. Good thing my buddy's repair shop wasn't far away and I was able to get the Merc to limp to his place where it could be fixed.
I bet you take care of your cars better than just about anyone.
I've also had very good luck with every MB I've owned...but the cars are maintained even beyond spec. I will admit I don't drive them like a granny...I will drive both cars hard on occasion. That doesn't seem to hurt anything...it's keeping up with the maintenance schedule, to the letter. I have to believe the average consumer visits a Jiffy Lube twice a year and thinks that's it.
By Chris Isidore, senior writerJanuary 11, 2010: 11:14 AM ET
DETROIT (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors Chairman and CEO Ed Whitacre promised Monday that taxpayers will make a profit on the $50 billion of money that Treasury has sunk into the company over the past 13 months.
"I think the government's investment is well placed and I think they'll make a lot of money," Whitacre told reporters after an event at the annual auto show here Monday morning. "It won't be too long."
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GM has previously said it would repay a $6.7 billion loan that it received from Treasury by June of this year. It has already made the first payment of $1 billion.
In order for the rest of the money to be returned to taxpayers though, GM will need to file for an initial public offering of its stock so that Treasury can sell its 61% stake in GM.
Even if GM goes public again, the value of its stock would have to greatly exceed levels it had traded at before the company's bankruptcy in order for the stock to be worth enough for taxpayers to make a profit.
In fact, the company's overall market value would have to hit at least $67 billion for Treasury to recoup its investment. But Rod Lache, an analyst with Deutsche Bank, estimated in November that based on the trading in GM's bonds, investors were putting the future value of the company at only $42 billion. 0:00 /3:24Chevy Volt: The test drive
So it remains uncertain if Whitacre will be able to back up his bold claim. Steven Rattner, the former head of the Treasury's auto task force that gave GM the money in the first place -- said at the time GM exited bankruptcy last year that repaying the full $50 billion was very unlikely.
Nonetheless, Whitacre's promise goes far beyond previous assessments made by company officials, including his predecessor, Fritz Henderson, who resigned on Dec. 1 under pressure from the board.
dude,this exactly is the problem with GM. Never accept that they have reliability problems..Good for you and GM. let GM take you to and fro for 30 more years but the majority dont share your view.. You got lucky with GM cars b`cos you were the " CHOSEN " one !! LOL !! C`mon get real,for Pete`s sake !! :shades:
There is so little difference between the reliability of domestic vs. foreign vehicles these days, it's a non-factor. Even the worst-made 2010 vehicle is far more reliable than the best 1990 vehicle. I'm confident that my GM vehicles will be able to take me to my destination and safely bring me home with absolutely no drama. I can't possibly be this lucky.
There is so little difference between the reliability of domestic vs. foreign vehicles these days, it's a non-factor.
My experience says other wise. Now I've owned many more domestics vs. foreign, but my foreign vehicles have been much better built than my domestics. My 07 Expedition is just another domestic vehicle I've owned that has had expensive problems by 60k miles.
Looking at the bigger picture, I agree that overall, domestic vs. foreign reliability is closer than ever and IMO is probably close enough overall to not affect my buying decision. If I like something, I'll buy it pretty much regardless of the make.
Um, the most reliable vehicle in 1990 was probably the LS400. Are you seriously suggesting that some schlubby Aveo is more reliable today than THE Lexus was when it was new? Heck, a 20-year-old LS400 is probably more reliable than a new Aveo.
Um, the most reliable vehicle in 1990 was probably the LS400.
That car was definitely a game changer and an unbelievable accomplishment. Cadillac nor Lincoln has never had anything remotely in the same league as the LS 400-460 in terms of reliability and refinement. Not that the LS is the most appealing car in the world, but it's reliability, quality and refinement is impressive and of course it has the price to go with it.
No, I'd be willing to bet the problems per 100 cars with the original LS is still better than most cars today.
I don't think this could be accomplished on a domestic luxury car ls 400 coin balance
I tried looking a similar video on a Cadillac, but did see some for BMW and Audi. Don't know if it means anything but it looks impressive.
I know I've never owned a domestic vehicle that could remotely pull that off, particularly when revved.
I would not be afraid to take that new Aveo anywhere. I'd hop right in and be on my way. However, I'd be more concerned about the condition of that 20 year-old Lexus. Age is as much of an enemy to a vehicle as mileage. If I could do a thorough going over of the Lexus to make sure there were no age-related conditions, I'd take it on a journey.
Around the time I eventually bought a new 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, I took an LS430 on a test drive to see what all the hype was about and was disappointed. It felt no different than a lot less expensive Buick Park Avenue. If I want a Buick, I'll buy one and save about $30K! If I want something in the LS price range, I'll get a loaded E-Class or plainer S-Class.
Oh, I wouldn't want to drive an Aveo everyday, but I wouldn't be afraid to if it's all that was available at the time. My Mom has a 2006 Aveo and she's had absolutely no trouble with it. I
...dropping dead on the side of the road are old and neglected cars regardless of the make or origin. Living in the city, you see all kinds of crazy things: people driving on the donut tire for months, cars that look like they haven't been washed since the first Reagan Administration, cars that look like refugees from a demolition derby, car spewing more emissions than a Saturn V rocket, etc.
Just out of curiosity, are old JD Powers results available anywhere on the web. I tried a google search and couldn't find anything beyond a 2008 graph that comes up and shows Lexus at #1 with 120 problems per 100 cars.
I'd be curious to see some older graphs, to see how things have changed over the years.
As a totally irrelevant aside, I read that the 1979 Mopar R-body full-sized cars had a defect rate of something like 1000-1100 units per 100 cars! And before the K-car went to production, they were forecasting around 750 defects per 100. Iacocca called that unacceptable and swore to do better, but I don't know what defect rate the K-car went into production with.
It felt no different than a lot less expensive Buick Park Avenue.
Well, I'm speechless on how that's possible. I've been in an LS 430 and I've never been in a smoother or quieter car. I don't know how anyone could find a P/A as refined as the LS. That's comical. Jesus, the 3800 sounds like a garbage disposal with a spoon in it, compared to the Lexus v8.
The P/A couldn't match a Jetta in quality of interior materials or compete with most $30k cars let alone a luxury car that cost twice as much while offering unmatched reliability too. It's like comparing a cheap polyester JC Penny suit to one that's tailored from worsted wool. I guess they both can be had in black, thus for some they are the same.
If I want something in the LS price range, I'll get a loaded E-Class or plainer S-Class. Well I can't argue that, but I'd be willing to bet the MB will see the shop more than an LS will. Still, I would prefer a MB too.
Just out of curiosity, are old JD Powers results available anywhere on the web. I tried a google search and couldn't find anything beyond a 2008 graph that comes up and shows Lexus at #1 with 120 problems per 100 cars.
I found an article from 1997 that has the LS 400 tops at 36 per 100, by far the best. 1997 JDpower
Don't know where to find problems per 100 on individual models for different years, but it seems the LS has pretty much one that award since day one.
".......The P/A couldn't match a Jetta in quality of interior materials or compete with most $30k cars let alone a luxury car that cost twice as much while offering unmatched reliability too."
Huh??? Do you know how many times I pulled my P/A over to help some schlep push their Jetta to the side of the road??
Huh??? Do you know how many times I pulled my P/A over to help some schlep push their Jetta to the side of the road??
I wasn't talking about mechanical reliability, but the quality and design of the interior. I had a '00 Jetta TDI at the same time my grandpa had a '00 P/A. The material were much better. The P/A was a sea of drab gray plastics and hard cheap plastics that were of Cavalier quality.
Maybe I'm the Lemko of VW ownership, but I never had any issues with the Jetta. But, I only had it for about 16 months and and 35k miles or so.
Comments
Me too. GM has certainly gotten better, IMO GM vehicles in the past were some of the worst offenders. Particularly in the 80's and 90's with their small and sporty cars.
My BIL has an 88' Corvette that has 40k miles on it. He's owned it since '90 or so when he bought it with about 9k. It's the most pampered car you can imagine, yet with it's Z51 suspension, it rattles horridly and has so since it was about 3 or 4 years old. Sharp car, but build quality is horrible. Same with those Beretta's and the like. I've been in those too, and they all seemed bad in terms of rattles. A lot had to do with these cars not having a very stiff structure, thus the suspension needed to be stiffened to compensate. Thus rattles are unavoidable.
Yes, the Camry's are impressive in that regard (I can't say about 07 or newer), but the few previous gen Camry's I've sampled are incredibly solid. My MIL's 05 XLE V6 has 120k miles on it and not one squeak or rattle. It's impressively quiet. Boring, but solid. Not something I'd buy, but maybe something I'd buy for my daughter as a starter car. I test drove a Camry 4cyl and I agree they are very quiet for a 4 banger.
Accord's on the OTOH, seem as good, but IMO, they don't offer as much isolation, I think they have a stiffer ride and better handling, but road noise seems more pronounced, could be tire choice or less sound insulation (I don't know). Regardless, I prefer the driving dynamics of the Accord vs a Camry
My dad's 09 Accord EX-L v6 is very impressive. Interior design feels and looks rich, the v6 is creamy smooth (better than any domestic v6 I've sampled including GM's 3.6), and the car has a refinement not found in most cars at it's price. My dad has put 30k miles on his already and other than a flat tire, it's been perfect. One beef my mom has with it, is the front passenger seat is heated on the base only, the back portion of the seat is not heated. The drivers seat has the whole seat heated. That's cheap IMO for a car that lists for $30k.
Every BOF SUV I"ve been around has rattles. I even road in a Lexus LX470 that had some interior rattles. My Suburban rattled and while my Expedition has been better so far, it still has more rattles than I'd like. I guess with that much interior to cover and the lack of rigidity with a full frame, rattles are going to happen.
Most full-size GM car's I've been around haven't rattled bad if at all. It's the medium and compacts that were bad IMO.
LOL, those Park Ave's ride so soft I don't think two aluminum can's on top of each other could rattle.
My wife's 07 GP has a few, but I don't remember her '01 Impala having rattles, but she only had it to about 40k miles. I do remember the ISS and cradle issue though, and they both made noise.
My Suburban had the ISS problem too. GM must have put that defective steering shaft in just about everything back then. Annoying problem too.
because they aren't designed to be like that. the Camry is designed to compete for American cars, typified by their boat-ride.
The Accord on the other hand is designed to be more sporty, closer to the European cars in that regard.
All at 170,000 miles.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
An the XLE v6 isn't any better, horribly over boosted and zero feedback. I equate it to Buick like.
I don't think my MIL cares about steering feel. She drove a '95 Saturn SL2 for 10 years. If you can tolerate an SL2 for that long, you can tolerate anything. Granted, an SL2 is the exact opposite of a Camry. The only 4cyl I know of that's louder than than the Saturn's was the Dodge 2.0l DOHC 150hp version with a 5speed I had in a '95 Neon sport coupe. It was headache inducing at highway speeds. I'm sure the fact that it spun nearly 4k rpm at 80mph didn't help matters. But Honda like it wasn't Fun car though.
Actually, when my MIL was looking to replace the Saturn in '05, I recommend taking a LaCrosse for a test drive, but she wouldn't even look at it. She wanted no part of owning a Buick. So I guess a Camry was the logical choice.
When her previous car was sending signals of impending doom, I pointed out a Lucerne to her...she also said "no way". The Red Hat Society sticker in the window didn't help. It's easy to see why Buick is trying for a new audience...that captive market of 60+ people is thinking differently than in the past. They milked the oldster market for so long that people who are now getting up there themselves think the cars are too senior-citizeny for them.
That's for sure. The parent's of the boomer's always aspired for Buicks, Oldsmobiles, and Cadillacs. The boomers themselves are the one's who discovered VW bugs, Honda's, Toyota's and Nissan's etc. They aspire to Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW etc. Those cars are now the gold standard.
If I mention Buick to my mom, she immediately has visions of her75 year old dad backing his Park Ave over the neighbors mailbox. She want's no part of the image whether real or not.
because it was supposed to do that. Expecting your Camry to handle like a sports car is like expecting our "let's be honest" politicians to be honest.
or expecting to sell large number of Buicks to driving enthusiasts.
it is just THAT irrational.
She's going Lexus.
Regards,
OW
Her loss, not mine.
you think so, she doesn't. so you lose.
We'll it's GM's loss for sure.
Kind of reminds me of my great aunt and uncle. Back in the 50's & 60's his family owned a few Buick dealerships and various other businesses. They always drove Buicks, Lincolns, and Cadillacs. As soon as he died (about 5 years ago), my great aunt traded in her Deville for an LS430. LOL. She told me uncle Bill would be rolling in his grave, but she wanted what she thought was the best.
Good luck to GM in trying to fix this marketing and image issue. I have to wonder if the same thing will happen to the new competition in 50 years, that is, if we even have cars in 50 years. I have to think, at least for the Europeans, it won't. I guess it kind of is for Toyota - they are in some ways the 21st century Buick.
that's why people pay big money for intangibles like well known brands. Reputation, once tarnished, takes years if not decades to rebuild.
something those nice folks running UAW have no clue about.
It will depend on whether or not Toyota can continue to attract young buyers with solid entry level models. That's where GM went wrong. They lost the young buyers with lousy small cars. IMO, GM still doesn't have a small car that's competitive. That's why the Civic and Corolla are eating the Cobalt's Lunch. What 20-30 year old would want a Cobalt over the likes of a Civic, Corolla, or Mazda 3? Not to mention Hyundai nipping at their heels. Outside of a Cobalt SS (which I've only seen a few), the Cobalt has rental written all over it.
The upcoming Cruze will be crucial for GM, it will go along way to improving their image. Same with the new Fiesta from Ford.
I feared for her life in that thing. Another laugher from GM to be extremely kind!
An Adair County woman died Tuesday morning after the car she was operating crashed into a line of parked vehicles at the construction site of the new bridge across Russell Creek on KY 80 East just outside of Columbia.
Bridgett Karnes, age 44, of Columbia, was pronounced dead at Westlake Regional Hospital by Adair County Deputy Coroner Todd Akin at 8:46 a.m. Tuesday, a little more than an hour following the crash.
The accident occurred at 7:30 a.m. when Karnes was traveling west on KY 80 in a 2007 Chevy Aveo and failed to stop at the bridge construction site.
Her vehicle crashed into the rear of an unoccupied pickup truck parked in the roadway at the construction site, causing a chain reaction that involved three other vehicles parked in front of the pickup.
2007 Aveo Crash
Regards,
OW
Good points. Even if we assume the newer GM models are/will be excellent, the image is a really tough thing to shake. I know that if say, the 2010 LaCrosse was exactly what I liked in a car (luxurious yet sharp handling, great interior), I would still probably not buy Buick because of a) image; and b) long-term concerns about reliability of both the vehicle and the company. That's one reason I've thought that GM should rename itself - IMHO the brand is just THAT damaged.
Toyota seems to be heading the way of GM in some regards, but not as bad (yet?). They are getting a bit cheaper, and as they expand market share I wonder if they are slipping a bit. Complacency is tough to fight when you are on top. Sort of like the U.S.
Regards:
Oldengineer
In the latest issue of Consumer Reports, a Cadillac placed higher than a Mercedes for best luxury car. The magazine seemed so floored by its result that it played that news of its finding higher in the article in the February issue than the fact that it was a pair of Infinitis, the M35 and M35X, that were better than both, at the top of the list.
Yes, the $50,995 Cadillac CTS was considered better than the Mercedes-Benz E350 -- not to mention the BMW, Acura, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar and Volvo. The magazine, famous for its independence, calls the CTS "a solid performer" but adds that it cannot recommend the car for sale because its reliability is notoriously "spotty."
"GM reliability continues to be uneven," the magazine says. "The Malibu and Traverse were reliable out of the box, but the Enclave and Acadia had problems in the first couple of years."
Despite one of the better models, GM still lacks reliability. Period.
Keep at it, Mr. Lutz. Not there yet.
Regards,
OW
hopefully we don't have to compare-and-contrast for you anecdotes vs. statistics.
Otherwise, just raise your hand and we will gladly answer your questions.
Statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to. Ever hear of the "finagle factor?"
Can't disagree there, but to say Cadillacs never break is a huge stretch or "finagle factor" of the truth.
Just do a little research on the timing chain issues with the 3.6. Seems they are needing to be replaced at fairly significant rate. A boating buddy of mine had to have the timing chain replaced at 35k on his wife's 08 CTS. Ironically the dealer gave him an Acura TL as a loaner? Which you'd be glad to hear his wife didn't like.
The timing chain issue is severe enough to warrant a TSB and a redesign of the chain for current models.
I don't care much for the current TL because of the bizzare styling. The front end looks like it was designed by the studio that draws Pokemon and the back end looks like it was designed by the studio that draws the Transformers.
The upcoming Cruze will be crucial for GM, it will go along way to improving their image. Same with the new Fiesta from Ford.
I know the rental Cobalt I had once was pretty poor so I will never take a look at that (I'm 47). Will probably be in the market for a small car this Spring and leading my wishes is the safe bet: Corolla. I'm not sure when the Fiesta and Cruze will be out but probably too late for me to take a look at them. I believe the Fiesta might be too small anyway.
Good for Government Motors that their midsize is living up to its expectations :shades:
I've been left stranded 3 times. I had an '85 Tempo that my dad gave me and a CV joint failed leaving me dead on the side of the road. I was also left stranded with my grandpa with his '92 Buick Roadmaster with a bad starter. I bought a new '98 Ford SVT Contour that developed a short to the fuel pump at 5k miles or so and left me stranded in the middle of nowhere. Even my Suburban which I hope will be the worst vehicle I've owned never left me stranded. When the trans failed, it was still drivable, but barely.
I've also had very good luck with every MB I've owned...but the cars are maintained even beyond spec. I will admit I don't drive them like a granny...I will drive both cars hard on occasion. That doesn't seem to hurt anything...it's keeping up with the maintenance schedule, to the letter. I have to believe the average consumer visits a Jiffy Lube twice a year and thinks that's it.
By Chris Isidore, senior writerJanuary 11, 2010: 11:14 AM ET
DETROIT (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors Chairman and CEO Ed Whitacre promised Monday that taxpayers will make a profit on the $50 billion of money that Treasury has sunk into the company over the past 13 months.
"I think the government's investment is well placed and I think they'll make a lot of money," Whitacre told reporters after an event at the annual auto show here Monday morning. "It won't be too long."
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GM has previously said it would repay a $6.7 billion loan that it received from Treasury by June of this year. It has already made the first payment of $1 billion.
In order for the rest of the money to be returned to taxpayers though, GM will need to file for an initial public offering of its stock so that Treasury can sell its 61% stake in GM.
Even if GM goes public again, the value of its stock would have to greatly exceed levels it had traded at before the company's bankruptcy in order for the stock to be worth enough for taxpayers to make a profit.
In fact, the company's overall market value would have to hit at least $67 billion for Treasury to recoup its investment. But Rod Lache, an analyst with Deutsche Bank, estimated in November that based on the trading in GM's bonds, investors were putting the future value of the company at only $42 billion.
0:00 /3:24Chevy Volt: The test drive
So it remains uncertain if Whitacre will be able to back up his bold claim. Steven Rattner, the former head of the Treasury's auto task force that gave GM the money in the first place -- said at the time GM exited bankruptcy last year that repaying the full $50 billion was very unlikely.
Nonetheless, Whitacre's promise goes far beyond previous assessments made by company officials, including his predecessor, Fritz Henderson, who resigned on Dec. 1 under pressure from the board.
My experience says other wise. Now I've owned many more domestics vs. foreign, but my foreign vehicles have been much better built than my domestics. My 07 Expedition is just another domestic vehicle I've owned that has had expensive problems by 60k miles.
Looking at the bigger picture, I agree that overall, domestic vs. foreign reliability is closer than ever and IMO is probably close enough overall to not affect my buying decision. If I like something, I'll buy it pretty much regardless of the make.
That car was definitely a game changer and an unbelievable accomplishment. Cadillac nor Lincoln has never had anything remotely in the same league as the LS 400-460 in terms of reliability and refinement. Not that the LS is the most appealing car in the world, but it's reliability, quality and refinement is impressive and of course it has the price to go with it.
No, I'd be willing to bet the problems per 100 cars with the original LS is still better than most cars today.
I don't think this could be accomplished on a domestic luxury car ls 400 coin balance
I tried looking a similar video on a Cadillac, but did see some for BMW and Audi. Don't know if it means anything but it looks impressive.
I know I've never owned a domestic vehicle that could remotely pull that off, particularly when revved.
Neither would I, but I sure wouldn't want to. It's not like you often see cars dropping dead on the side of the road.
I'd be curious to see some older graphs, to see how things have changed over the years.
As a totally irrelevant aside, I read that the 1979 Mopar R-body full-sized cars had a defect rate of something like 1000-1100 units per 100 cars! And before the K-car went to production, they were forecasting around 750 defects per 100. Iacocca called that unacceptable and swore to do better, but I don't know what defect rate the K-car went into production with.
Well, I'm speechless on how that's possible. I've been in an LS 430 and I've never been in a smoother or quieter car. I don't know how anyone could find a P/A as refined as the LS. That's comical. Jesus, the 3800 sounds like a garbage disposal with a spoon in it, compared to the Lexus v8.
The P/A couldn't match a Jetta in quality of interior materials or compete with most $30k cars let alone a luxury car that cost twice as much while offering unmatched reliability too. It's like comparing a cheap polyester JC Penny suit to one that's tailored from worsted wool. I guess they both can be had in black, thus for some they are the same.
If I want something in the LS price range, I'll get a loaded E-Class or plainer S-Class.
Well I can't argue that, but I'd be willing to bet the MB will see the shop more than an LS will. Still, I would prefer a MB too.
I found an article from 1997 that has the LS 400 tops at 36 per 100, by far the best. 1997 JDpower
Don't know where to find problems per 100 on individual models for different years, but it seems the LS has pretty much one that award since day one.
Regards,
OW
Huh??? Do you know how many times I pulled my P/A over to help some schlep push their Jetta to the side of the road??
I wasn't talking about mechanical reliability, but the quality and design of the interior. I had a '00 Jetta TDI at the same time my grandpa had a '00 P/A. The material were much better. The P/A was a sea of drab gray plastics and hard cheap plastics that were of Cavalier quality.
Maybe I'm the Lemko of VW ownership, but I never had any issues with the Jetta. But, I only had it for about 16 months and and 35k miles or so.