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Comments
People who buy hybrids are looking to A) conserve fuel but also
I'm sorry but anyone who is looking to "save the planet" per se is not going to buy a 3 ton SUV! In the many persons eyes, vehicles like the Tahoe or any other schoolbus sized SUV out there represent excess and wastefullness and even if it gets the 4mpg improvement over the typical 12mpg gas pig, it's still a waste. And then there was the price hike... :sick:
And at the opposite end of the spectrum, as dieselone noted the hybrid powertrain diminished towing ability which IMO is the only reason left to buy one in the first place. A comparable large crossover or minivan will suit probably 90% of those buyers looking for the commanding view and large cargo capacity.
The hybrid buses from GM from Government Motors were a joke right out of the gate, I'm not surprised they fell flat on their faces with them.
My Seville didn't have a lot of the features my DTS has like Nav and satellite radio. My DTS is also the first car I've ever owned with a sunroof. Anyway, I really did like the look of the Seville. It was a FAST car if nothing else and had a nice aggressive exhaust note.
One thing I really liked about my Seville was that it had both casette and CD. A lot of my older music is on casette.
You are just removing the transmission as the middle man.
No need to use an overly complicated and extremely expensive CVT like Toyota does or sandwich in a tiny electric motor between the engine and transmission like honda does.
No need for a transmission at all because electric motors have so much torque.
Torque_R said...
That's all cool but I think I am missing something. Doesn't the Volt have a 1.4L gasoline engine as a backup power? What happens when the Volt runs out of electric juice and switches to engine mode and you have a direct drive? That's not gonna move at all.
See this is what I mean I wrote how several posts explaining how a series Hybrid works but I guess I didn't go into enough detail or you just don't have enough of a technical background to understand. Those posts were full of links to pages with more information on the basics of series hybrids plus how they work in other real world applications like trains.
I believe I even used the term "on demand stationary power generators" to help explain how the Volt's system worked. The ICE isn't directly connected to the wheels at all. The ICE works as a generator charging batteries, providing current to the electric motor directly, or both at the same time.
There is no need for a transmission just like how the Tesla roadster doesn't really need a transmission and neither did the EV-1. Electric motors make 100% or nearly 100% of their torque at 1 RPM all the way up to whatever the red line for the motor is.
I will say it again.
There is no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels. The engine just drives a generator to make electricity.
Just like the Nissan Leaf no transmission
The LEAF will have neither automatic nor manual transmission and in fact will not have any transmission at all. This is because electric motors have a wide torque band which means an electric vehicle can cover a wide range of speed without need of a transmission. Further switching an electric motor into reverse can be done electronically, again without need of a transmission. The GM EV1 famously did not have a transmission, for example, and went fast enough for Tom Hanks to say you can get arrested in that car (see Who Killed the Electric Car). The LEAF specs lists a top speed of 90 miles/hr. (see Technical specifications for the Nissan LEAF)
but the Volt will have the small range extender 1.4 liter ICE to recharge the batteries when they get low.
I would expect future vehicles using the Volts power train to get a downsized turbo diesel engine as diesel engines operate better in these types of applications. They weigh a lot more though so I imagine that is one reason whey the Volt isn't getting one to begin with.
anythingbutgm said
Excellent point and I'll back it up by saying that I am currently part of the Volt project here at work. I'm not going to disclose what end of things I am working on but what parts I do have in my possession tells me that the car is going to be a tank as far as weight goes (I'm not afraid to guess it will weigh as much as Lemkos Caddy).
Hang on you are working on part of the Volt project, as a supplier I guess, and you don't know how the power train works?
Come on seriously?
What are you working on the audio system?
I am no big GM fan or apologist I have had my problems with them on a corporate level even if I haven't had any problem with their cars personally. I sell SAABs for god's sake I have seen how badly managed GM divisions are. I am fighting with GM right now for $2,200 of my own money as spiffs from last year for selling new SAABs.
Still I can step back away from that and view the Volt purely for what it is. A potential game changer of an automobile. I don't think a lot of the people here can do that. If this was a Honda or a Toyota you would be all over how great it was but just cause it is a Chevy, and a hatchback oh no just like the Prius and the Insight
A potential game changer of an automobile.
At 40 grand BEFORE ADM... You honestly don't believe dealers who will be lucky to accrue one, maybe 2 of these things won't try to pinch a few thousand more to eager buyers do you? And as far as tax credits go, you still have to front the entire amount as well as take on the payments of a 40+ thousand dollar vehicle before claiming the discount on your tax forms, am I correct?
So lets say the average consumer like myself takes out a 5 year loan at a typical 5% and lets assume for a second that I could actually convince the dealer to sell me a Volt at the 40 thousand dollar MSRP.
That is 754 dollars a month!!! to drive a Chevy econonobox.... Again, that amount can get you a lot of nicer choices. I don't know how many environmentalist-types you have met but the ones I know are incredibly frugal...
If this was a Honda or a Toyota you would be all over how great it was but just cause it is a Chevy, and a hatchback oh no just like the Prius and the Insight, it is going to be a bad car no matter what they do.
Nobody says it'll be a "Bad car" I haven't seen that anywhere. And if it was a Honda or Toyota it would still be a ridiculous proposition to offer a car the size of a compact for more money than a midsize luxury car with way more amenities, power, performance and clout.
keep in mind, there is a good possibility that it might work out for GM, but I personally don't think so! I'm trying to tell you that charging 40-45k msrp for this vehicle, during a RECENSSION for most people, is not going to get the majority of Americans to flock to their Chevy dealers in the droves to buy one! It is simple marketing pricing and strategy that will make or break this for GM! now if they charged a 30 or 35k msrp that is a different story and might be better! who knows!
Right now everyone is speculating on the price! Let's see when it comes out what exactly GM charges for it!
Now of course, the moderate to very rich, it won't make a difference because they have plenty of money around to gamble and see if it pays off!
I'm just saying, that I personally would not take the chance and buy this thing from a company that up until just recently was struggling to make profits and went through a major company restructuring and still has a tremendous amount of debt to pay off! To be honest with you, that really isn't the major reason why I would not get one at any time soon! The main reason, and its more my own personal lessons and beliefs that I've learned over the years, just as you don't by the first model year for any new vehicle, regardless of manufacturer, because that is the year all the problems and kinks are identified and worked out, I don't buy brand new technology that a company is introducing for the first time because you don't know yet how's its going to work out! I would have never bought a Prius, or a Insight, etc when they first came out because they were unproven and the manufactures first real attempts at those technologies! the Volt is no different!
What I'm trying to get at is, auto history has taught us, that whenever a company introduces a new technology/model for the first time, it not only has to be given time to prove itself, but get all the kinks and problems associated with it worked out in the first year or two! I'll be completely shocked if this thing doesn't have one or two kinks that GM will have to work out in the first year or two its out on the market! People were even hesitant when the Prius and the other hybrid models first came out because it was unknown how reliable the technology was going to be; another great example to prove my point is the CVT transmission that Audi, Nissan, Subaru and other automakers are gradually introducing into their lineups; the 1st Gen CVT for each automakers has been faced with several problems and setbacks that have gradually been mostly worked out in their 2nd Gen CVTs!
You have to be patient, but this idea that the Volt is a completely problemless, efficient, perfect, and a great vehicle before it even has a chance to hit wide scale market application and prove it self is naive and ridiculous! The Volt will have to prove itself just like all the new fuel efficiency technology and models before it!
I'm not keeping you from buying it, but you need to start respecting other people's opinions and decisions, even if you don't agree with them!
Sure I can, and I do. I'm just not going to go out and buy one until it makes financial sense. I need my environment unfriendly SUV to haul the family and our boat and travel trailer. I only drive it about 50-100 miles M - F. The Expedition averages about 13mpg during the week. That comes to about $22/week with gas at $3/gal. Why in the hell would I spend $30k-40k to buy something that at present time will only save me $100 month in fuel at most. Heck the extra insurance alone would eat up the fuel savings.
Even if I commuted 40 miles per day M-F, gas prices aren't high enough to encourage me to spend that much money for a dedicated commuter as it doesn't excite me in any other way for me to splurge on one. Even with an average car getting 20mpg over 15k/yr, does the savings really mean much. $2200/yr in gas savings take a long time to pay off a $30k plus car.
You could use the same argument against the new Insight as well. It's been so badly hit by the weight-reducing team over at Honda that it literally is the cheapest and flimsiest feeling car that Honda has ever made. An Aveo feels more substantial. It's like a stripped-down-Fit with hybrid tossed in for almost twice the price.
My initial thought was "Why don't they just bring over the TDI Civic that they already sell in the U.K. and avoid embarrassments like the initial Insight and this one?"
But you have to realize that a lot of people, including myself, had a terrible experience with problem after problems with our GM vehicles and their lack of customer service!
It had nothing to do with how I maintained my cars! I was like you on all my vehicles! I'm a car nut, I made sure the oil/filter/tire rotations were every 5k miles! I check the air pressure in my tires every week or two and inflate or deflate them if necessary! have the normal fluid and inspection checks at 15k, 30k, 45k etc and I get my cars washed and do detail work MYSELF almost every two weeks in the winter and sometimes once a week in the spring and summer! I took really good/addictive car of my cars and no matter how well I maintained and took care of them things were going and breaking all before 80k miles!
My God, I even keep a gas log book and calculate my mpg's and everything after every fillup to see how I can improve my gas mileage and find what gas works the best performance and cleaning of the engine, which right now, I have found is Shell gas! I have electronic and book records for every single car I've had all the way back to the 1970s!
So I hope your not trying to say that the reason my GM cars were such problems and money hogs were because I didn't take care of them :confuse:
The concept is, but the implementation not so much. IMO GM should have designed it with two powertrains: a straight electric with enough batteries for 75 miles at 60mph (more or less what the Leaf is), and a constant-speed 30kw generator with just enough battery storage for acceleration bursts (using the battery pack as a de facto ultracapacitor). By trying to make it both an electric-only car for shorter drives and a gasoline car for longer drives, the Volt ends up being good at neither.
The sad part is that the Volt would be almost the ideal car for me, but I don't have $40k to spend on it and I don't trust GM to get it right.
Makes sense as the car has been around for 13 years now, is on it's third generation and there are probably a milliion or so examples on the road. Also the Prius has a more solid interior, it has better flow, more comfort and more gadgetry.
I haven't driven an insight myself because I don't see the cost advantage over a good solid compact so I won't waste the dealers time on something that I won't buy. I get 31mpg in my AWD Impreza which I am very happy with. I only paid 16 grand for it brand new.
The Fit isn't much cheaper btw, you can get Insights for right around the 20 grand mark. A Fit starts at 14 and change (with a manual tranny) and is a tough find on dealers lots. Also what hampers alot of Insight sales is Hondas own Civic hybrid sitting across the lot which has a similar price in a more identifyable package (looks and feels just like a typical civic).
I am not going to say that the Volt is not a worthwhile attempt to ween the public off of foriegn oil. I applaud GM for their efforts, but I also criticize them on price and I think they made a giant mistake announcing the technology 3 years ago allowing other companies to develop their own rivals in time to combat GM and in the case of the Nissan leaf, at a significantly lower price.
Here is an interesting take on the electric car market from Charles Ghosn.
link title
Pretty tough talk there, he'd better hope he's right or the critics will be right on his case as well.
But all this talk doesnt mean a thing until they make em and we find out how it does.
I agree with you; I don't have so much of a problem with the Volt and concept behind it but more with GM's poor marketing and pricing decisions thus far! this is really analogous to what happened with the Camaro, don't get me wrong I love that GM brought it back, but they screwed up with announcing so long ago and other companies heard and were able to make changes and anticipate its arrival; Ford heard long enough in advance that they were able to tweak the Mustang and I believe the Mustang beat out the new Camaro in a comparison Motortrend did a few months ago!!
C'MON GM, don't announce your products so far in advance that you give the competition enough time to best you by the time you bring the product to market!!
If we take Lutz's word that "75% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day" (I don't particularly believe this stat) then the added benefits of the ICE on the Volt is moot.
Haven't seen a media outlet reporting this yet, are they trying to keep this one a secret?
Q7. Is it true that you have the same supplier for Cobalt and the Pontiac models as Toyota has for the Corolla?
A7. It is true for this particular vehicle. It is not true that we use the same steering supplier for all of our portfolio.
Given that GM already has a bunch of our money, I don't know why they wouldn't sell it for $28K and then spiff up the interior and exterior a bit so that it actually looks like a car you would want to own, not just like a bland Cobalt-type vehicle.
But who am I, certainly not one of their crack marketing department staff. :P
If they make em we will be able to see what it can do.
New imported vehicle sales in Japan, including cars made abroad and imported by Japanese automakers, jumped 16.9% in February from a year earlier to 14,433 units, posting a year-on-year increase for the fourth month in a row, an industry body said Thursday.
The reason GM has been announcing Volt, Camaro, etc. so far in advance is that from a car (as opposed to SUV or truck) perspective, the General had no clothes on when the gas prices went up. So their crack team of highly compensated and strategic executives started scrambling to do something, which takes 3-4 years.
Meanwhile we had the Volt Dancers at trade shows, cheap slapped together joke hybrids like the Malibu hybrid, big advertising on E85 which is useless to practically everybody. They've advertised the NEXT BIG THING that is coming in the future as if it actually existed, while running like hell internally to put something together!
So out of touch...
Wednesday, Dec 1, 2004 15:30 EST
"You always have your early adopters," said Alan Taub, GM's executive director for R&D, about today's hybrid buyers. "Toyota sells as many Priuses as we sell Pontiac Aztecs. Is that a success?" Earlier this year, at the Detroit International Auto Show, Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman of product development, had said that the company's decision not to make a hybrid car "was a mistake from one aspect, and that's public relations and catering to the environmental movement."
General Motors aims to be the first company to profitably sell a million hydrogen vehicles -- "we measure success when it has six zeroes behind it," Taub told me. LMAFAO!!!!!
link title
Several years ago Lutz stated that GM could have easily developed a Prius-like hybrid using just a fraction of one year's marketing budget - since Lutz believed, maybe still believes, that the Toyota Prius was only a PR gimmick, not a real product. Instead, however, GM chose the latest gas-guzzler ads to invest its money.
GM-s-Bob-Lutz-Calls-Global-Warming-A-Crock-Of-S-
Why should that worry me?
Too late for GM to be number one in electric technology....along with conventional technology for transportation. That train left the station and is now in Japan and Korea.
They had their chance.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
What you miss is that the entire backbone of the plug in segment is the battery storage, and the cost of the batteries. Like I said, everybody was a nay-sayer about the Volt 3 years ago, questioning battery technology. In 3 years, companies have thrown billions at lithium ion battery technology, making it what it is today. Billions GM didn't have to spend on their own. The Leaf isn't "better" than the Volt, just different.
People don't usually leave key roles when their projects are about to become highly-recognized major successes.
There. Fixed it for you. :P
what you fail to understand that you keep making excuse after excuse for GM's stupidity when it comes to announcing and marketing their vehicles with these crazy prices and allowing the competition to plan ahead to stay one step ahead of you! I don't know what you don't understand about that; I'm not putting down the vehicle, more of the marketing and pricing strategy GM is using! the Camaro is a great example I used before; GM ran their mouth off about it so far in advance that Ford was able to plan ahead and the Camaro got itself handed over by the Mustang in several recent comparison tests because GM couldn't keep their mouth shut and I think announced their Camaro plans and possible engines way back in 2005 or 2006 if I'm not mistaken! so what did Ford do? they heard this information and said, wow, their bringing back the Camaro in a few years, that gives us time to come up with ideas to keep the Mustang on top when it comes out!
I'm trying to give recommendations to help GM, because God knows they need it; all I'm saying is GM needs to wake up and announce their new vehicles and/or technology maybe, lets say 1 year to 1.5 years in a advance of its debut to market rather than the several years they have done with a few of their products
now to make it like I'm not a complete GM downer, they did a good job of marketing the new LaCrosse! now the pricing is a different story for another day, but the marketing of it was not bad and it is selling pretty well for GM! they didn't give their competition any time to come up with models to top it, as of yet, anyway!
LOL!
You may have a point there, but the whole purpose of announcing the Volt was because back in 2007 people were asking where's your "Prius Fighter". GM obviously didn't have one, and said we'll do them one better. Now, all we can do is wait and see as to how well the technology performs.
I still don't see how a full electric car is any better than the Voltec technology, though.
I do agree, that in 2007 and 2008 things were looking pretty bleak for GM, now luckily things have begun to change for them, but back then I guess your right they needed something to brag about! Guess I can't say I blame them! when things are going tuff for your company, you need to be as optimistic and positive as you can be!!
Well, I'm out for tonight, and as Truman would say, "In case I don't see you, Good Afternoon, Good Evening, and Good Night!
I don't either, really. I think if your purely a city dweller and just need a car to drive around town, then the leaf is probably better as it will do that for less money. If you need the capability to charge off the grid than then the Volt would be a better choice. It comes down to what you need I guess.
My concern with the Volt is that GM has been touting it for so long. I hope expectations aren't so high that the Volt can't meet them. The Prius was a work in progress for years. The first gen wasn't nearly as good as the current model. I think it's difficult to just leap frog everyone and hit the ground running with a completely new design. GM has a lot riding on this car, mainly because they've been promoting it as a game changer for so long. $3/gas won't help either. Gas probably needs to be over $4/gal to really get peoples attention.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0907_2010_ford_shelby_gt500_chevr- - - - - olet_camaro_comparison/specs.html
Here is another comparison tests where the Camaro lost to the Mustang again!
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs._20- - 10_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t-comparison_tests
I mean C'MON, you spend all this time and money bringing back a American classic and as soon as it comes out, it loses already in comparison tests :confuse: I guess Chevy is just going to have to dump a even bigger V8 in and restart the Camaro vs Mustang WARS!
I particularly don't care that much for the Mustang! I've always been a Camaro person and I want to see the Camaro up on top in comparison tests but it looks like GM is going to have to step up their game even a little more on the Camaro!
I have no such qualms. I think the Camaro looks STUPID! It reeks of the worst of old American big iron - high power, big, no space inside. No refinement of a Z or a TT or a Miata or an S2000 or even a Fiero. The G8 was light years better IMHO. Even the GTO.
Once the testosterone-loaded guys and their girlfriends who want one consume them all up, I predict sales will tank. I think the Mustang has a lot more holding power over the long haul as it is a relatively much more practical vehicle.
The Camaro would be good for a mobsters car as you could armor the metal panels and there would not be a lot of glass to take the bullet holes. :P
What is the Chevy Volt, and Why is GM Advertising it During the Olympics?
Three years before Job 1 and GM is already advertising the Volt
Beyond GM's Bailout or Bankruptcy: The Chevy Volt
GM has been dangling the Volt like carrot for the past 3 years. I've read many articles in just about every business publication with about how the Volt represents the future etc. Bob Lutz has been far from quiet about the Volt. I can't remember how many articles I've read regarding Lutz promoting the car.link">link">
That's subjective, as I prefer the Mustang, plus the Camaro is way to heavy, heck the Mustang is to heavy also, but it's still several hundred pounds lighter than the Camaro. I see where the 2011 Mustang v6 will have 307hp/280ft-lbs of torque, 30mpg, and a 0-60 under 6 seconds.
It's just fun to see these two cars go head to head again. I wonder what the future will bring for the pony car wars? In 10 years will we be bragging over kilowatts and batteries instead of HP and MPG?
You are certainly entitled to that opinion.
30 mpg hwy from a 302 HP V6 is all I'd need in a Camaro.
Glad you like it. Some people like refinement rather than raw power. Again, I'm predicting that once the first year demand wears off, sales will be pretty low. It is a niche car that is not all that practical, so it is not likely to have large sales.
For GM to be very successful, it needs best-of-breed vehicles in the categories that sell a lot - trucks, SUVs, crossovers, family sedan, small sedan, small hatch. They are good in a few of those categories but not in most. An American style muscle car is great, but not going to make a large difference.
I believe I even used the term "on demand stationary power generators" to help explain how the Volt's system worked. The ICE isn't directly connected to the wheels at all. The ICE works as a generator charging batteries, providing current to the electric motor directly, or both at the same time.
Yes I believe I don't have the technical background on this and I never bothered with the links because I thought Iknew about it a year ago when I read that the ICE was a backup power, and would take over when the system ran out of electric power. I might have confused this with the Fisker Karma. Not sure. But then again this opens other type of questions. If the ICE does recharge the battery, so is there a need to plug in the car? Also, can a 1.4L provide power alone through the electric motor and drive the car?
I also am of the opinion that: 1) the car is too heavy, and 2) I'd rather have more green-house, than gun-slit windows.
If in the market for such a vehicle, I'd definitely look at the '11 Mustang first, a car that has a much better image historically and brand-wise (not living on welfare).
I've heard that comment more than once. I've looked the Camaro over plenty at the car show etc, but I never actually sat in it. My BIL has been thinking about getting rid of his Corvette and getting something the whole family can enjoy. With two small kids he rarely has an opportunity to drive it. He looked at getting a Camaro until he sat in it. He complained that the blind spots are horrible and the interior is ugly, looks like the Camaro is off his list. I don't see him getting a Mustang though. He'll probably just keep the Vette, though he hardly drives it.
I would expect future vehicles using the Volts power train to get a downsized turbo diesel engine as diesel engines operate better in these types of applications. They weigh a lot more though so I imagine that is one reason whey the Volt isn't getting one to begin with.
Well, that and the fact that there will be a whole lot of Cruze underneath the Volt. And the Cruze is designed to use a new 1.4L engine, which I'm sure is the same engine that will be used as the onboard generator for the Volt.....
I must admit, I have wondered why they won't be able to sell the Volt for Cruze prices plus the $10-15K for the batteries, which pencils out near $30K, not $40K, by my calculations....even allowing for recouping development costs, you would think it could start at $35K, which with the government tax rebate would bring its price very comfortably under $30K....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not moot at all, IMO, because with the Volt you can have your highway car and your daily commuter in one car, whereas the Leaf can ONLY be used for commuting (and only then if your commute is less than 50 miles each way), which leaves you buying or renting a second car for highway trips and all the etceteras of your driving life.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)