It is the best selling care in History for sport cars
I guess your using the term sports car loosely. I don't think any 2 seat sports car has every sold over a 100k, but as far as 2+2 sporty cars such as the Camaro, it's not even close to the best seller in history. I think Ford built over 600k Mustangs during some of years during the 60's (I think '66).
Pontiac built over 100k/yr firebirds in '78 or '79. I don't know what years have been the best for the Camaro, I'm sure others know.
But comparing the sales of the Camaro to the likes of Porsche's and Corvette's is apples and oranges.
LOL...wouldn't it be ironic if he found he needed a jumpstart one day, and the car he got it from was a 1995 Neon?
Sorry, but this is the truth and real life here. I'm not making this up. The last time someone asked me for a jump it was for a Neon that needed it. I didn't sugar coat it, I told this girl her car was sh*t and this would happen frequently if she didn't get rid of it.
MY GF at the time got mad at me for not being more helpful, but I'm not gonna look under the hood of a car I know is crap. :lemon: I didn't waste more time than to try and jump it, and when that didn't work to start it, I told her call a tow truck, LOL. :P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
You would think when GM bought out the McLaughlin car company in 1918 in Canada it was building cars with Buick motors, later to be called Buick's . Chevrolet was built in this same plant in 1916,Durant and McLaughlin owned control of GM after Durant received L Chevrolet's ,Chevrolet shares and was able to take over GM holding company, Then Durant made it General Motors Car Company in 1918 in turn buying out the Canadian Mc Laughlin company making it General Motors of Canada. History of Buick in Canada 1908 Chev 1916 and Cadillac back in 1927 because of the depression in the USA . This is not to say we were GM but we owe no man our ownership to GM of Canada. We in Canada are dedicated to bring GM on line with or without the help of the few.
Mustang, rang the death knell for the Supra, 300Z, and the RX
Umm, I don't think any mullet wearing Mustang or Camaro gear head has ever cross shopped a Mustang or Camaro vs those above. Completely different cars marketed to completely different people. I've always liked Mustangs, but they were never in the same realm as those cars.
While those Supra's, 300z, and the last Gen Rx-7 were great cars in their own right, they simply got to expensive and their was to much competition. You can also add those Mitsubishi GT-3000 into the mix too. Seemed in the early 90's everyone had a $35k+ sports car chasing after a limited buyer pool.
Then you had Probes, Mr2s, Talon's, 240 SX's, Prelude's, Mx-6's etc, all nipping at each other heals.
".....Umm, I don't think any mullet wearing Mustang or Camaro gear head has ever cross shopped a Mustang or Camaro vs those above."
I dunno. I do remember the car rags comparing them. The Camaro, Firebird, and Mustang have historically had no rival in terms of bang for the buck over the last 30 years.
But now we have Subaru WRX's, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolutions, 370Z's, Genesis', and Mazda Speed 3's to compete with Mustangs and Camaros as far as "bang for the buck" is concerned.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I dunno. I do remember the car rags comparing them. The Camaro, Firebird, and Mustang have historically had no rival in terms of bang for the buck over the last 30 years.
The rags compare everything. I think I've seen Corvette's compete against F-18's in MotorTrend. I mainly remember them be compared to Corvette's and Porsche's. Those cars were driven by the likes of engineers and lawyers, and often just an extra toy. I'd bet the average age and income of a Supra/Rx-7/300Z buyer was close to double that of a Mustang or Camaro. The current 370Z might be cheaper today than the 300Z twin turbo was in '92, especially if you adjust for inflation.
Just looking at the Build time and sales of a car that the average person in the USA Thought GM would not or could not sell. The Sales have not stopped even in the winter months. My guess Toyota has helped with its problems. Mustang owners want something fresh but it looks like this car (call it what you want but most insurance companies call it a Sports car ,two doors and buckets) I had my Grand Nationals and Pontiac 2+2 (this Boat was a Sports car?) in the few months of build it has outsold.
call it what you want but most insurance companies call it a Sports car ,two doors and buckets
Since when do insurance companies now anything? LOL. They will call a Mustang or any previous Camaro or Trans Am a sports car too. The fact remains, to date, the Camaro isn't in the ball park of being the best seller ever compared to previous Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird sales in a year. If the Camaro is still selling close to a 100k+/yr two or three years from now I'll be very surprised.
I'll agree that the Camaro will most likely be the best selling sports car this year, but ever? Not close.
We'll see for how long. It would be just like GM to announce in a year or two they are loosing money because the platform is to expensive or something of that nature and cancel it.
"......We'll see for how long. It would be just like GM to announce in a year or two they are loosing money because the platform is to expensive or something of that nature and cancel it. "
I doubt they are losing money on it. What I would expect, and we are seeing it already w/ the 2011 Mustang, is that Ford will push the envelope w/ the Stang, and for Chevy to answer means encroaching on Vette territory. As it stands now, you get a 400 hp 6.2 in a base Camaro SS for just under $34k, and a 430 hp 6.2 in a base Vette for $49K. At some point, the performance of the Vette is going to have to justify it's $15K premium, and I believe that the only way it can is to kill the Camaro.
Remember, Ford has nothing to compare w/ the Vette, so the sky's the limit w/ the Stang.
Cadillac has begun enacting major policy changes in an effort to distance the luxury brand from its parent company, General Motors. Cadillac has been owned by GM since 1909, but now wants to establish itself as a unique luxury brand away from the negative publicity associated with GM’s bailout funding.
The main reason behind the damage from the GM brand stems from the highly public bailout funding to the automaker. GM’s roughly $50 billion government bailout in 2009 has created a stigma that is driving many buyers away, and Cadillac hopes that by distancing itself from the brand name typically associated with the bailout – GM – it will be able to avoid the negative stigma.
Cadillac has struggled the most out of GM’s remaining core brands, dropping 32 percent in 2009, 2 percent worse than the industry average. In 2010, Cadillac has increased sales by only 14 percent, the lowest of GM’s brands which reported a combined 31 percent increase.
Cadillac’s last annual sales increase took place in 2005 when the luxury brand sold a healthy 235,002 units – an increase of .3 percent. By contrast, Cadillac’s volume has slid low enough that the automaker is hoping for a 28 percent increase in annual sales for a total of 140,000 units.
But that's the thing. GM doesn't HAVE to get into a peeing contest with Ford over this. They just have to offer a better styled alternative. Both cars in V8 form are already way past the level of what you would require in terms of raw speed, so more isn't the goal. Or shouldn't be. What should be the goal is inexpensive and fast. Just like the small muscle cars used to be in the 60s.
I doubt it too. My point was GM has a history of making horrible product decisions, so nothing would surprise me.
What I would expect, and we are seeing it already w/ the 2011 Mustang, is that Ford will push the envelope w/ the Stang, and for Chevy to answer means encroaching on Vette territory. As it stands now, you get a 400 hp 6.2 in a base Camaro SS for just under $34k, and a 430 hp 6.2 in a base Vette for $49K. At some point, the performance of the Vette is going to have to justify it's $15K premium, and I believe that the only way it can is to kill the Camaro.
Well, even if they had the same HP, the Corvette will easily out perform the Camaro due to having over 600lbs of less weight to drag around.
Anything Ford does extra beyond next years 400+hp GT will cost a lot more money. A Shelby Mustang is a $45k+ car. Yeah it's cool, and yeah it has 540hp, but it will still gets beat by a vette due to being nearly 600lbs heavier, not to mention being extremely nose heavy.
The Mustang and Camaro are basically elephants compared to something like the Corvette.
So, what happens if the 2013 Mustang shaves a couple hundred pounds off and has 450 hp?? Where does Chevy take the Camaro?? Unless they want to make the SB 427 the base motor in the Vette (albeit at a much lower hp than the z06), then the Camaro encroaches on the Vettes straight line performance.
I would assume that a '65 Chevelle SS396 was faster in a straight line than a base '65 Vette w/ just a 327/300hp. But we know that the base Vette would handle much better. The public accepted it then, but will they today?
Not me because they haven't done squat with my Detroit Lions, but things are looking up for them also!!! I will always be biased towards GM, due to my family connection and of course friends that sell there cars!!!
GM will have all the tax payer money paid back in full by 2011 and they could quite easily be #1 once again by then with all these fine automobiles rolling off the production lines!!! :shades:
Well, I've read sources that believe the exact opposite. Only way GM can repay the $30 billion or so borrowed by 2011 is by borrowing from somewhere or having a very generous IPO when GM goes public again.
The Big 3 are already the beneficiaries of this huge Toyota scandal. It is only going to get worse for the Japanese companies because now congress is going to get there hands on a memo written by the JAW workers about safety concerns raised by the workers. GM has retooled and is ready to fight for those customers. I think this story is here to stay and the perception in the American consumers mind about Japanese superiority is beginning to shift. This recall is the biggest blessing in GM history. I'm doing everything I can to keep the story alive on facebook and my 535 friends. If some of those 535 friends tell 10 people and those 10 people talk about it over dinner at some point the negative impact it will have will be huge. I think there is a good chance I'm not the only Pro-GMer who is applauding and getting a little bit of revenge!!!
I think Honda, isn't the flawless automobile manufacturer you think they are and I'd be willing to bet my life on it they have some skeletons in there closet also!!!
No doubt Toyota has big time issues. I'm surprised their sales haven't dropped more than they have so far. Honda has benefited some, and will continue to do so. Accord sales seem to be taking off. Is Honda perfect? Certainly not, but they still make very good products across the board. Something big would have to happen for customers to leave Honda. I'd say the odds are slim that will happen.
Remember GM has other competitors besides Toyota. Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, Ford, VW, etc. All will be trying to take every customer Toyota loses. Ford seems to be benefiting the most and with their continued product improvement and better image with the public, they will continue to benefit more than GM for a while anyway.
I was talking to my dad the other day. He bought an '09 Accord EX-L v6 last January. He's put 35k miles on it and he just raves about how much he likes it. As I've mentioned in the past, prior to the Honda, he's mainly owned Fords. He told me he was glad he didn't buy a Toyota (he did consider a camry), he didn't say "I wish I would have bought a Ford or GM".
GM and Ford both have a huge opportunity to boost their market share some. We'll see how it plays out this year.
No worse than a Mustang. That last gen Camaro, along with the contemporary ('94-03) Mustang, rang the death knell for the Supra, 300Z, and the RX. Why?? All 3 were priced in the high $30's and $40's, whereas a Camaro or Mustang could be had for under $30K with a rock solid V8.
Hell no. Not even remotely in this Country let alone the ballpark... If the Mullet Camaro and Mustang "wrang the death knell" then why would all these makes build their high horsepower, highly tossable and much more advanced sports coupes/cars that would wipe the floor with either of these dinosaurs in the first place? Because the domestics weren't even the targets.
Sorry, uh uh. No way. The F-body was crude, unrefined and sloppy and the Mustang was only a bit better. The ergonomics sucked, the seats sucked (Mustangs are pretty good some years), the visibility was gawd aweful and both were built for straight line performance, exactly what they were built to do 3 decades earlier while the Supra, 300Z, 3000GT, Eclipse, etc. were meant to to do something those other live axled beasts couldn't....
Take corners... :shades:
Sorry, you my friend have no idea what you are talking about. The Camaro and Mustang were not what killed cars like the Supra, it was the price and a product with a limited market. Period.
No offense intended btw, I probably should grab some coffee...
Hang in there GM might be number One in the Future,Give it time or give it a chance . Camaro 70,000 in less than a year with more than 1000 Dealers shut down . The 600 coming on line will boost it. I will remind you in two or three years.
I disagree, I bet they are losing a good amount on each Camaro that they produce. Government Motors put years of effort and I'me sure billions of dollars in development into the Zeta platform and the only thing that materialized was the Camaro! Then GM closed the door on the program... sorta. If they do bring the Zeta Caprice as a pedestrian option as well as the police cruisers then I could see money being made off the development, but until then I bet the Camaro brings in little to zero profit.
The Dealer mark up will kill not only sales but buyers, GM has now 600 old Dealers opening to compete in the market that should hold the price at MSRP. Thinking if I was looking for a Camaro I would go to GM site and build it and then order it. Dealers were the biggest destroyer of GM.
Camaro 70,000 in less than a year with more than 1000 Dealers shut down . The 600 coming on line will boost it. I will remind you in two or three years.
For the Camaro to be the best selling pony car/sports car, muscle car, or whatever you want to call it, it will have to sell over 418,812 units over a 12 month period as that is what the Mustang's record is.
Um, GM doesn't have any car that will sell over 400k units/yr during the next 3 years. The only domestic vehicle that will sell that many, will have a bed on the back.
Can the Camaro be the best selling sports car over the next 3 years. Maybe, but history says the Mustang will outsell it again in a few years.
I still can't believe there are enough people who can live with the fugly looks, tank-like curb weight and the gawd aweful visibility. And then there is the interior... blech. :sick:
Failure to understand GM is not a United States Company. Holden Motors in Australia has been around for years and Zeta is the car coming out of Australia. Buick Regal has been designed in the Opal plant and China was joint venture back in 1990 Canada sent teams to China to set it up. Canada has built Buick ( McLaughlin Carriage Cars) 1908 The Chev 1916. General Motors (old General Motors is no more) General Motors today is supported by Canada England Australia and China.With a touch of Mexico Argentina and others around the world. This is a fact the Plants that run in the USA require sales to be productive, GM will not require the plants to stay in the USA if you refuse to employ with sales. Canada Equinox and GMC built for the North American Market. Canada and the USA made the Olimpics a North American Sweep.Just May be GM can hold employment here too.
I understand that in this world (today) the world population is in need of Jobs and cars are a luxury. most cars sold today are used and the miles are getting high.The older generation bought cars at 100.00 a car when earning 90.00 bucks a week. This equates to no plants in the USA employing people because no sales .Canada /Ontario minimum wage just went to $10.10 This will be a jump in prices but Earning might increase sales.Selling any products today is at best a bone [non-permissible content removed]. Getting a pension is unheard of and you think any car company today will put that kind of production out with 4,500 men? This is the manpower of the Camaro plant that has to date produced 100,000 and sold 70,000. This would be a NO on my end.
I would suggest that when the Old GM went into receivership GM has taken steps to repay the Loan (in Canada it will be paid in June in the USA the best part will be gone in June)GM is looking for states that did with Toyota and other off shore plants for tax exempt money to locate in the state and trust me unless the states need employment GM will not locate there.
still can't believe there are enough people who can live with the fugly looks, tank-like curb weight and the gawd aweful visibility. And then there is the interior... blech.
I wonder if the Camaro might end up appealing to a younger demographic than the Mustang and Challenger? The Mustang/Challenger seem more like updates of the originals, trying to copy them as closely as possible using modern vehicles, whereas the Camaro seems more like a caricature of the '69, with proportions that are exaggerated and a bit cartoonish.
I guess I can see Mustangs and Challengers appealing more to aging baby boomers trying to recapture the good old days, whereas the Camaro would appeal to someone who saw it in the Transformers movies, and is too young to remember that in the original cartoon, Bumblebee was a VW Bug!
BTW, I saw a new Camaro on Sunday, in a really dark blue. I thought it looked pretty sharp in that color.
Those are the production numbers for the Solstice. I remember in '05 and '06 were talking about what a smash hit the Solstice was going to be and how it would kill the Miata. Well, it looks like all that wanted one, bought one by 07. Then GM determined they were loosing to much money on each one and now it's gone. Mean while the Miata keeps plugging along.
I don't know current production numbers of the Miata, but in 2006, Mazda built over 48k. They sell them all over the world and not just the US.
GM sold 2 million cars in China last year. It builds a lot of its cars in Mexico... How is it an American company?? And why should folks not buy [non-permissible content removed] cars.. If [non-permissible content removed] cars are not allowed,then rest assured GM is a goner..They make a huge profit in China.. It`s a global economy folks..And folks still cling to buy American...Sheesh!! I cringe when I hear that... :sick:
Just buy the best out there..That it is a GM/Honda/Ford is secondary...And damn,,they make such shoddy cars--it`s really a surprise that they still have 20% of the market --and folks are accused of not being patriotic.. If inspite of pathetic cars for 4 decades-folks still buy GM --damn that is some patriotism.. Can you imagine folks buying [non-permissible content removed] or Korean cars if they had made crappy cars for 4 decades... forget 4 decades-even 4 yrs of crap cars and they would be out of business !! :shades:
M sold 2 million cars in China last year. It builds a lot of its cars in Mexico... How is it an American company?? And why should folks not buy [non-permissible content removed] cars.. If [non-permissible content removed] cars are not allowed,then rest assured GM is a goner..They make a huge profit in China.. It`s a global economy folks..And folks still cling to buy American...Sheesh!! I cringe when I hear that... :sick:
I agree with you.Today the plants with 4500 employees can not build those numbers. 100,000 with 70,000 sold is good work and the fact people out there have jobs and money to buy new is good. The fact GM shut Hummer Pontiac Saturn and Oldsmobile. The Solstice was another Saturn built car. Putting 5/6 million out of work because of lack of sales was a no brain.Hard Choice.Finding sales today with so many out of work is great.I remember buying cars for $100.00 when making $90.00 a week.
Looking at old information it would not be the first time Cadillac moved its operation out of the USA building in Canada until the war broke out in 1939 Building Buick and Cadillac and Chevrolet shipping them to Milford proving ground for testing side by side McLaughlin car Company became GM of Canada in 1918. I would venture to guess, this is going on as I type.
Many factors go into why sales of new cars are what they are. Part of it was over production and everyone going nuts with leases and trading in every few years over the past decade. That was great for the manufacturers when we bought 17 million cars, but that also meant the used markets were flooded with fleet vehicles and other low mileage trade ins.
You ended up with a situation where leasing companies couldn't afford to take a killing anymore due to dropping residuals and owners couldn't afford to trade in due to being thousands upside down. Used vehicles got cheaper and cheaper (particularly domestics). I was in the market for a new SUV in 08. Looked at new Denaili's, Subuurban's, and Expeditions etc. Instead of spending $45k on a new SUV, I found a 1 year old 07 Eddie Bauer Expedition nicely optioned in great shape for $23k. That was an easy decision for me. Saved a minimum of $15-20k. I haven't bought a new car since '01 due to being able to find low mileage used vehicles so cheap.
Today the environment is changing. When it's time to replace the Expe in the next few years, I probably won't find a bunch of low mileage 1 year old SUV's on the lot with huge discounts. Supply and demand are more in line today. I may buy new because the prices of used will probably be more expensive unless you buy something more than a few years old.
IIRC, same type of thing happened in '86. That was a boom year in sales as the market rebounded from years of low sales and the us fleet of cars was getting old. Good used cars were getting harder to find and prices helped people decide to start buying more new cars.
Looks like GM and Ford could be poised for some good times in the next few years. They've lowered production and when sales surge again, it won't quite be the buyers market we once had.
I agree GM in 1990 found it could take 50,000 cars out of the build and save itself $8,000,000 in warranter cost by not selling to Rental car companies.(looks like when the new breed GM staff,forgot what the plan was all about?) Then Buying the cars back selling them off as company cars through the Dealers or Dealer auction. This big picture in High Def. just about sunk the ship.
Comments
I guess your using the term sports car loosely. I don't think any 2 seat sports car has every sold over a 100k, but as far as 2+2 sporty cars such as the Camaro, it's not even close to the best seller in history. I think Ford built over 600k Mustangs during some of years during the 60's (I think '66).
Pontiac built over 100k/yr firebirds in '78 or '79. I don't know what years have been the best for the Camaro, I'm sure others know.
But comparing the sales of the Camaro to the likes of Porsche's and Corvette's is apples and oranges.
Sorry, but this is the truth and real life here. I'm not making this up. The last time someone asked me for a jump it was for a Neon that needed it. I didn't sugar coat it, I told this girl her car was sh*t and this would happen frequently if she didn't get rid of it.
MY GF at the time got mad at me for not being more helpful, but I'm not gonna look under the hood of a car I know is crap. :lemon: I didn't waste more time than to try and jump it, and when that didn't work to start it, I told her call a tow truck, LOL. :P
Umm, I don't think any mullet wearing Mustang or Camaro gear head has ever cross shopped a Mustang or Camaro vs those above. Completely different cars marketed to completely different people. I've always liked Mustangs, but they were never in the same realm as those cars.
While those Supra's, 300z, and the last Gen Rx-7 were great cars in their own right, they simply got to expensive and their was to much competition. You can also add those Mitsubishi GT-3000 into the mix too. Seemed in the early 90's everyone had a $35k+ sports car chasing after a limited buyer pool.
Then you had Probes, Mr2s, Talon's, 240 SX's, Prelude's, Mx-6's etc, all nipping at each other heals.
I dunno. I do remember the car rags comparing them. The Camaro, Firebird, and Mustang have historically had no rival in terms of bang for the buck over the last 30 years.
:P
I, like most Americans, simply don't TRUST the Big 3.
The rags compare everything. I think I've seen Corvette's compete against F-18's in MotorTrend. I mainly remember them be compared to Corvette's and Porsche's. Those cars were driven by the likes of engineers and lawyers, and often just an extra toy. I'd bet the average age and income of a Supra/Rx-7/300Z buyer was close to double that of a Mustang or Camaro. The current 370Z might be cheaper today than the 300Z twin turbo was in '92, especially if you adjust for inflation.
Since when do insurance companies now anything? LOL. They will call a Mustang or any previous Camaro or Trans Am a sports car too. The fact remains, to date, the Camaro isn't in the ball park of being the best seller ever compared to previous Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird sales in a year. If the Camaro is still selling close to a 100k+/yr two or three years from now I'll be very surprised.
I'll agree that the Camaro will most likely be the best selling sports car this year, but ever? Not close.
I doubt they are losing money on it. What I would expect, and we are seeing it already w/ the 2011 Mustang, is that Ford will push the envelope w/ the Stang, and for Chevy to answer means encroaching on Vette territory. As it stands now, you get a 400 hp 6.2 in a base Camaro SS for just under $34k, and a 430 hp 6.2 in a base Vette for $49K. At some point, the performance of the Vette is going to have to justify it's $15K premium, and I believe that the only way it can is to kill the Camaro.
Remember, Ford has nothing to compare w/ the Vette, so the sky's the limit w/ the Stang.
The main reason behind the damage from the GM brand stems from the highly public bailout funding to the automaker. GM’s roughly $50 billion government bailout in 2009 has created a stigma that is driving many buyers away, and Cadillac hopes that by distancing itself from the brand name typically associated with the bailout – GM – it will be able to avoid the negative stigma.
Cadillac has struggled the most out of GM’s remaining core brands, dropping 32 percent in 2009, 2 percent worse than the industry average. In 2010, Cadillac has increased sales by only 14 percent, the lowest of GM’s brands which reported a combined 31 percent increase.
Cadillac’s last annual sales increase took place in 2005 when the luxury brand sold a healthy 235,002 units – an increase of .3 percent. By contrast, Cadillac’s volume has slid low enough that the automaker is hoping for a 28 percent increase in annual sales for a total of 140,000 units.
Dump GM
NOW we see the truth from within. How refreshing is that?
That's why GMC should have been axed as many on this board have recommended. Period. GM needs to die as a brand name. Like it or not.
Regards,
OW
I doubt it too. My point was GM has a history of making horrible product decisions, so nothing would surprise me.
What I would expect, and we are seeing it already w/ the 2011 Mustang, is that Ford will push the envelope w/ the Stang, and for Chevy to answer means encroaching on Vette territory. As it stands now, you get a 400 hp 6.2 in a base Camaro SS for just under $34k, and a 430 hp 6.2 in a base Vette for $49K. At some point, the performance of the Vette is going to have to justify it's $15K premium, and I believe that the only way it can is to kill the Camaro.
Well, even if they had the same HP, the Corvette will easily out perform the Camaro due to having over 600lbs of less weight to drag around.
Anything Ford does extra beyond next years 400+hp GT will cost a lot more money. A Shelby Mustang is a $45k+ car. Yeah it's cool, and yeah it has 540hp, but it will still gets beat by a vette due to being nearly 600lbs heavier, not to mention being extremely nose heavy.
The Mustang and Camaro are basically elephants compared to something like the Corvette.
I would assume that a '65 Chevelle SS396 was faster in a straight line than a base '65 Vette w/ just a 327/300hp. But we know that the base Vette would handle much better. The public accepted it then, but will they today?
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
-Rocky
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?lang=en&cl=18534451
That is the electric car future, right!!!!
-Rocky
I don't believe that at all.
-Rocky
Time will tell who's right.
...along with Buick. Leave Buick only for the Chinese market.
Then you would have Chevy and Caddy, and perhaps GM could focus on good vehicles instead of divisions.
Are those the same accountants that predicted GM's resurrection in 2009?
The Big 3 are already the beneficiaries of this huge Toyota scandal. It is only going to get worse for the Japanese companies because now congress is going to get there hands on a memo written by the JAW workers about safety concerns raised by the workers. GM has retooled and is ready to fight for those customers. I think this story is here to stay and the perception in the American consumers mind about Japanese superiority is beginning to shift.
I think Honda, isn't the flawless automobile manufacturer you think they are and I'd be willing to bet my life on it they have some skeletons in there closet also!!!
-Rocky
Remember GM has other competitors besides Toyota. Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, Ford, VW, etc. All will be trying to take every customer Toyota loses. Ford seems to be benefiting the most and with their continued product improvement and better image with the public, they will continue to benefit more than GM for a while anyway.
I was talking to my dad the other day. He bought an '09 Accord EX-L v6 last January. He's put 35k miles on it and he just raves about how much he likes it. As I've mentioned in the past, prior to the Honda, he's mainly owned Fords. He told me he was glad he didn't buy a Toyota (he did consider a camry), he didn't say "I wish I would have bought a Ford or GM".
GM and Ford both have a huge opportunity to boost their market share some. We'll see how it plays out this year.
Hell no. Not even remotely in this Country let alone the ballpark... If the Mullet Camaro and Mustang "wrang the death knell" then why would all these makes build their high horsepower, highly tossable and much more advanced sports coupes/cars that would wipe the floor with either of these dinosaurs in the first place? Because the domestics weren't even the targets.
Sorry, uh uh. No way. The F-body was crude, unrefined and sloppy and the Mustang was only a bit better. The ergonomics sucked, the seats sucked (Mustangs are pretty good some years), the visibility was gawd aweful and both were built for straight line performance, exactly what they were built to do 3 decades earlier while the Supra, 300Z, 3000GT, Eclipse, etc. were meant to to do something those other live axled beasts couldn't....
Take corners... :shades:
Sorry, you my friend have no idea what you are talking about. The Camaro and Mustang were not what killed cars like the Supra, it was the price and a product with a limited market. Period.
No offense intended btw, I probably should grab some coffee...
I disagree, I bet they are losing a good amount on each Camaro that they produce. Government Motors put years of effort and I'me sure billions of dollars in development into the Zeta platform and the only thing that materialized was the Camaro! Then GM closed the door on the program... sorta. If they do bring the Zeta Caprice as a pedestrian option as well as the police cruisers then I could see money being made off the development, but until then I bet the Camaro brings in little to zero profit.
For the Camaro to be the best selling pony car/sports car, muscle car, or whatever you want to call it, it will have to sell over 418,812 units over a 12 month period as that is what the Mustang's record is.
Um, GM doesn't have any car that will sell over 400k units/yr during the next 3 years. The only domestic vehicle that will sell that many, will have a bed on the back.
Can the Camaro be the best selling sports car over the next 3 years. Maybe, but history says the Mustang will outsell it again in a few years.
So basically what you are saying is Government Motors is not as American as we'd like to make them out to be. Gotcha.
I wonder if the Camaro might end up appealing to a younger demographic than the Mustang and Challenger? The Mustang/Challenger seem more like updates of the originals, trying to copy them as closely as possible using modern vehicles, whereas the Camaro seems more like a caricature of the '69, with proportions that are exaggerated and a bit cartoonish.
I guess I can see Mustangs and Challengers appealing more to aging baby boomers trying to recapture the good old days, whereas the Camaro would appeal to someone who saw it in the Transformers movies, and is too young to remember that in the original cartoon, Bumblebee was a VW Bug!
BTW, I saw a new Camaro on Sunday, in a really dark blue. I thought it looked pretty sharp in that color.
2007 24,018
2008 15,587
2009 4,826
2010 20
Those are the production numbers for the Solstice. I remember in '05 and '06 were talking about what a smash hit the Solstice was going to be and how it would kill the Miata. Well, it looks like all that wanted one, bought one by 07. Then GM determined they were loosing to much money on each one and now it's gone. Mean while the Miata keeps plugging along.
I don't know current production numbers of the Miata, but in 2006, Mazda built over 48k. They sell them all over the world and not just the US.
Just buy the best out there..That it is a GM/Honda/Ford is secondary...And damn,,they make such shoddy cars--it`s really a surprise that they still have 20% of the market --and folks are accused of not being patriotic.. If inspite of pathetic cars for 4 decades-folks still buy GM --damn that is some patriotism.. Can you imagine folks buying [non-permissible content removed] or Korean cars if they had made crappy cars for 4 decades... forget 4 decades-even 4 yrs of crap cars and they would be out of business !! :shades:
I couldn't agree more.
You ended up with a situation where leasing companies couldn't afford to take a killing anymore due to dropping residuals and owners couldn't afford to trade in due to being thousands upside down. Used vehicles got cheaper and cheaper (particularly domestics). I was in the market for a new SUV in 08. Looked at new Denaili's, Subuurban's, and Expeditions etc. Instead of spending $45k on a new SUV, I found a 1 year old 07 Eddie Bauer Expedition nicely optioned in great shape for $23k. That was an easy decision for me. Saved a minimum of $15-20k. I haven't bought a new car since '01 due to being able to find low mileage used vehicles so cheap.
Today the environment is changing. When it's time to replace the Expe in the next few years, I probably won't find a bunch of low mileage 1 year old SUV's on the lot with huge discounts. Supply and demand are more in line today. I may buy new because the prices of used will probably be more expensive unless you buy something more than a few years old.
IIRC, same type of thing happened in '86. That was a boom year in sales as the market rebounded from years of low sales and the us fleet of cars was getting old. Good used cars were getting harder to find and prices helped people decide to start buying more new cars.
Looks like GM and Ford could be poised for some good times in the next few years. They've lowered production and when sales surge again, it won't quite be the buyers market we once had.
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