GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I gave GM more then enough time and chance to turn around in the 25 years I stayed with them, but enough was enough and I'm not going to be scolded because I went else where to save my bank account from being depleted on towing and repair costs!

    But these guys that believe in the bailouts of GM & Chrysler as a good thing, also believe you owe it to your country to bailout the Tow Truck Companies and Auto Repair Shops by buying from the Big 3!!! Just the act of buying a Big 3 vehicle really does directly lead to spending $$$ on tow truck companies and auto repair shops. It's an indirect bailout of those industries. After all, they know how to spend YOUR money better than you do! :P ;)
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I even have had a couple of people on this forum try to tell me that I didn't take care of my cars and that is why ALL EIGHT GM products were such trouble with breaking down and repair work! laugh laugh laugh!!

    Isn't that funny though? I have had some try to say the same thing to me, such as "if you take care of your Amerian vehicle, it will last and work just as good as a Japanese one."

    As if there is some magical potion in the air that made me take lesser care of my Big 3 car than my Japanese cars. Or maybe it was something in the water that tricked people into maintaining their Japanese cars better than they did their Big 3 cars. hahahaha ! ;) Yeah, maintenance, that's the answer to poor quality! :sick:

    I wish I kept all my repair receipts. I'd ask these forum posters to reimburse me for all of them and put there money where their mouth is. If I got reimbursed for all of the repairs, tow trucks, and such, I'd consider getting another Big 3 vehicle again; provided they agree to pay for out of warranty repairs up to 100,000 miles ahead of time.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    As if there is some magical potion in the air that made me take lesser care of my Big 3 car than my Japanese cars. Or maybe it was something in the water that tricked people into maintaining their Japanese cars better than they did their Big 3 cars. hahahaha ! Yeah, maintenance, that's the answer to poor quality!

    I wish I kept all my repair receipts. I'd ask these forum posters to reimburse me for all of them and put there money where their mouth is. If I got reimbursed for all of the repairs, tow trucks, and such, I'd consider getting another Big 3 vehicle again; provided they agree to pay for out of warranty repairs up to 100,000 miles ahead of time.


    its funny you should mention that because I kept all the repair bills, though I'd probably will get rid of them soon; I even wrote down in my gas mileage book at what mileage I had repair work done and what repair work it was! I was that meticulous!

    yeah, the not taking care of your car excuse has gotten old; I've always taken meticulous almost obsessive care of my vehicles no matter what company the car is from; I'm a firm believer in that no matter what kind of car you have in your garage, whether it is American, Japanese, Korean, or German its the second largest purchase you are ever going to make in your life and is a statement of your personality and you should take care of it, just as if it was your house! I know a car can't talk but if it could I know it would thank you for keeping it well cleaned and maintained! :shades:
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    I am thankful for the prosperity in my life and attribute it partly to how inexpensive my GM cars have been to maintain and repair through the years. My first good GM car got me around for 10 years and 103k miles with a $135 lower ball joint replacement as the most expensive repair in those 10 years. It had 100,200 miles on it when I first got it. It was kind of embarassing that I spent $200k building a custom home in 1988, while still driving a car that I paid $560 for a decade earlier.

    I just bought my first new vehicle since 2001 and I don't plan on needing to spend anything repairing it for 5 years. If it is anything like my last new GM it will either need tires in 60,000 miles or a new battery in 7 years as it's first invasion of my wallet.

    One of my 6 vehicles is a '98 mustang. The only non-GM. I was looking at it today and saw rust around the rear quarter panel that just appeared this winter. My experience with Chevy is to first see rust at 17-19 years old, if not undercoated, in my rustbelt climate. This is the first disappointment from the Ford.
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    When I was growing up in the 80's my dad was a die hard Ford man, based on all the problems we had with those cars I insisted on buying from the local GM dealer when I bought my first car. Like most here I could write a page long post on all the problems, but that was almost 20 years ago so I won't bore you with repeats of what everyone else has experienced.

    Fast forward to 2008, my sister bought a GMC Acadia. I love the styling and it drives well. However, 2 years and 40,000 miles later it's apparent GM's quality hasn't improved. She had a leak on the driver's door that resulted in the entire interior carpet being replaced. Then she had to have the audio system replaced as it was draining the battery, after 3 new batteries in one month GM finally replaced the audio system. Granted these were all under warranty and the dealer was very helpful, but as my sister noted, if you have to do all this under warranty what will happen in the next 40,000 miles when it comes out of her pocket. In spite of the recent negative publicity, my parents have a 2008 Camry with 65,000 miles on it and haven't had any issues with it.

    Sorry to the few GM fans here who have impeccable cars and think the rest of us are brainwashed and un-American, but personal experience continues to show they still don't build a quality car. I'd like to give them a chance but GM continues to give me many reasons to stick with other brands.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503

    Sorry to the few GM fans here who have impeccable cars and think the rest of us are brainwashed and un-American, but personal experience continues to show they still don't build a quality car. I'd like to give them a chance but GM continues to give me many reasons to stick with other brands


    couldn't say it better myself; I had terrible electrical problems with my 1990 and 1992 Buick's and I was just reading that several people are having MAJOR electrical and mechanical troubles on their 2010 Lacrosse's; when I hear that kind of stuff, similar to what I went through 20 years ago, it scares the crap out of me and gives me no confidence to even consider GM in the near future when shopping! I hope it just needs more time!
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited March 2010
    OK, so now let's make it 1971 up until 2009 when GM produced only junk. I'm trying to cover the intended improvement of the NEW GM but it's not easy!!!

    Not ready to put the crappy quality to bed quite yet....miles to go before I sleep... :sick:

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I worked for GM of Canada and would like to know when you first saw bad GM built cars and what plant built them?

    Well the first GM I remember as being junk was my uncle's Vega in the mid 70's, though I'm not really old enough to remember hit he still talks about how bad it was. The first GM car to leave me stranded was also at an early age (7 or 8), it was a '79 Caprice Classic wagon my dad had. I remember it pretty much being brand new and leaving us stranded multiple times with carb troubles. The dealer finally got it figured out and my dad kept it until '85.

    Honestly, I've hadtrouble with a variety of vehicles, but the worst is by far my 2000 Suburban that was made in Mexico. Horrible fit and finish, squeaks and rattles by 40k miles. Intermediate steering shaft issues by 40k. Transmission rebuilt at 46k (also horrible rear differential whine that I just dealt with and never fixed), pitman arm at 50k or so, fuel pump at 60k, A/C compressor at 65k, numerous electrical gremlins (such as the rear washer pump turning on with fog lights, rear wiper moving when rear defrost was on, and the rear wiper would move from park position sometimes when put in reverse), HVAC damper door and some type of heat control actuator replaced at 80k (cold air would come in passenger compartment and heat would stick on).

    My wife had an '01 Impala with the infamous engine cradle and ISS (intermediate steering shaft) under warranty under 36k miles, and it had an oil sending unit go bad around 40k, it was a company car and she only had it for about 45k miles. The engine cradle and particularly the ISS seemed to affect many GM vehicles back then.

    My wife currently has an 07 Grand Prix for a company car. It has 62k miles on it. Other than leaking a bit of oil in our garage, it has been reliable. Though I will say, its a horrid car. I can't fathom anyone willing to spend their own money one. We can virtually drive it for very cheap and it sits on the weekends. It represented all that was wrong with GM. It's no longer around, so hopefully GM will move forward with viable product.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    the GM products I had in the 50s and 60s were great, except for normal maintenance and one or two very minor inexpensive repairs they were great! but then I was crazy young then, 62 Corvette, 68 GTO, 68 Camaro, 58 Bel-Air, 59 Impala all of which were great American cars!

    didn't notice any problems with GM until my 1979 Chevy Chevette! was the first real problem GM car I had and then they just continued from there!

    so something began to change with GM between my 1968's and late 1970s/beginning of the 1980s!
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    It's really unfortunate, after looking at the new Regal at the Chicago Auto Show I was very impressed with the styling. No way I'd buy one though. I still expect it would have too many problems down the road.

    GM has a long way to go to earn back my trust, and I doubt they'll be around long enough to earn it.

    For those who think I'm un-American and biased, I'd strongly consider a Ford for my next purchase, in spite of the horrid experiences we had with them in the 1980's.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    yes, even though I have severe distrust and skepticism about GM, which I try to keep in check because I don't want to see them fail, I have been very impressed with Ford as of late, especially the Fusion; I just got my yearly 2010 ratings and reviews CR mag that I get each year and the Fusion was rated much above avg reliability and had a almost complete perfect full red circle scores in every category; if I was to get a mid-size sedan tomorrow it would probably come down to the Fusion, Altima, or Sonata! all three of them just have wonderful styling and a great ride quality/handling balance!!!

    I test drove the Malibu V6 just for the heck of it to see if Chevy has made any progress since I stopped buying from them; they have in many regards, the material quality is much better then in my 01 and 04 Malibu's, and the car is a little bit more comfortable but many of the materials were still cheap and the ride was a little bit more unsettled and no as quiet with the larger wheels and the V6 as it was in the Fusion, Altima, and Fusion! Chevy though is heading in the right direction with the new Malibu though but they are going to have to do a lot more to not even compete with their competition but beat them; the refreshed Fusion is at least a few years a head of the Malibu and is at least able to compete with reliabilty, quality, etc etc with its Korean and Japanese competition!
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    I too have had very good luck with GM vehicles. I sold a 1989 Astro with
    160,000 miles and the new owner put on an additional 160,000 on it.
    That's 320,000 miles with the original transmission (2 motors). My son
    had a 2000 Cavalier that he spent $10,500 for brand new. His girlfriend
    now commutes 30 miles each way to work with it. It now has 180,000
    miles and still runs great. It did need some front end work (pothole)
    and an alternator. The A/C doesn't work but no other major repair.
    He now has a 2007 Cobalt with 50,000 miles and he loves it. I find
    that car quiet, smooth riding and comfortable,. Much better than
    the Cavalier which has a harsh ride.

    Speaking of harsh rides, I drove in my cousin's 2008 Acura RDX
    and I think my 2006 Silverado's ride is much smoother
    and more comfortable. I also was quite underwhelmed by the
    Interior. It looked very cheap for a $40,000 car. The 4 cylinder
    engine was very buzzy also.

    My wife drives a 2008 Saturn Aura. I think it is the smoothest
    most refined car I have driven. (Yeah I don't drive alot of higher
    end cars - although I do drive my brother-in-law's Acura TL,
    which is smooth and refined but noisy with a busy ride).
    I bought a 7 year/ 100,000 warranty with the Aura, so I
    am not worried about any out of pocket repairs. I realize
    that the resale of this car will probably not be as good as
    some other cars, but I paid $6000 under sticker price
    so it all comes out in the wash at the end. So until I have
    a bad experience with GM I will continue to consider and
    buy them on a cost/value basis.

    By the way in light of the serious frame rust problem appearing
    in late model Toyota Tacomas and Tundras, I am absolutely
    ecstatic that I chose a Chevy Silverado which has been
    absolutely bullet proof for 4 years and for which I paid less
    money for than my 1994 Ford f-150 and has more features
    than than that truck. (By the way that was a great reliable
    truck too). I checked the underside of my truck recently
    and absolutely no sign of rust on the frame.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    . It was kind of embarassing that I spent $200k building a custom home in 1988, while still driving a car that I paid $560 for a decade earlier.

    Maybe that $560 car is one of the reasons you were able to save up for a $200K custom home. So don't be embarrassed, be proud!

    As for inexpensive, I remember about 11 years ago, my grandmother's '85 LeSabre needed new upper ball joints to pass inspection, when she gave it to me. At least I think it was the upper...it was whichever is the easiest/cheapest of the two to get to. I went into the part store and the guy said it would be $52. Apiece, I asked him, and he said that no, that was for both of them! In contrast, I tihnk the last ball joint I bought was for my '68 Dart, And I forget how much the shop charged to put them on, but it wasn't a whole lot.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    so something began to change with GM between my 1968's and late 1970s/beginning of the 1980s!

    I don't think it was just GM...I think everybody started going downhill in that timeframe, maybe even earlier. I remember reading the 1965 auto issue of Consumer Reports, and they were griping about finding record numbers of defects in their test cars. 1965 was also a milestone year though, with record sales and a lot of all-new products, so with so many new designs being rushed out the door, there was more opportunity for error.

    Chrysler products started going downhill in the late 1960's. The new '67 Dart/Valiant wasn't as well-built as the 63-66. The '68-70 midsized cars weren't built as well as the '67. And the '69 full-sized cars went downhill compared to '68. I think the '69 full-size Fords went downhill from '68 as well. GM held on a little while longer, probably only because they didn't redesign their full-sized cars until 1971.

    Then, in the 1970's, we had emissions controls, fuel economy standards, and all sorts of other hurdles that the auto makers could not get past without sacrificing reliability, simplicity, durability, or something else.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I don't think it was just GM...I think everybody started going downhill in that timeframe, maybe even earlier.

    No doubt. If it was only GM going down hill, they would have gone bankrupt by 1980. Ford's were horrible in the '70's, I'd say they were much worse than GM overall. I remember my dad having a '73 Grand Torino that was completely rusted out and needed a valve job by '79 and it had well under 50k on it. IIRC, the engine had major issues by 25k miles.

    I don't know much about chrysler as I've never really known to many people to have them. My FIL was able to get some serious miles out his late '70's through mid 80's Ram Vans. Though the paint would flake and/or fade early and they would rust too, but with the 318 they ran a long time.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I am very happy you were able to find good luck with your GM vehicles! though when that 2008 Saturn kicks the bucket, I think you sure will run into trouble finding a replacement Saturn from your local Saturn dealer ;)
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "....I think GM & Chrysler employees are MORE employed than they otherwise would have been without the bailouts, but the employees at XYZ and "Not Bailout Worthy, Inc.," are far more unemployed than they otherwise would have been if the bailouts had not been wasted on a few select companies."

    I imagine the same could be said about AIG and Goldman Sachs, too.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "....reading that several people are having MAJOR electrical and mechanical troubles on their 2010 Lacrosse's; "

    SEVERAL????? There were 3. One with the engine problem, one with the tranny, and one with the computer (this out of the 20 or so THOUSAND on the road).

    There have been a couple with dead batteries, but that was due to a programming issue where if you lock the doors, the car continued to "search" for the key fob (you needed the keyless start), thereby killing the battery. Just a reprogram-NOTHING major. No USB??? Again, a programming thing.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    I don't care if it was 3 or 3 million, I have read not just on edmunds but a few people on other sites having electrical troubles and its a bit disconcerting; and the people on here two of them were not programming issues; the one guy had his engine fried on this 2010 at 1400 miles - thats not a programming issue and GM still doesn't know what happened? sounds a lot like Toyota who doesn't know how these SUA are happening doesn't it?

    I don't care whether your GM, Toyota, Ford, Hyundai, etc - when people are having major mechanical, electrical, programming, etc problems on their vehicles, you better damn well find out and know what is causing the problem instead of fixing something you don't know why it broke in the first place and then sending people on their merry way for it all to happen again and possibly risk their safety! you better either refund their money or give them a brand new car so that you can safely study the damaged one in order to get to the bottom of what is going on! the problem is, the car companies don't want to do it - they want to play the dumb dumb game and send you on your merry way

    that is the way GM always treated me for over 25 years and now Toyota owners are finding out that Toyota is no better then GM was :sick:
  • perfectcircleperfectcircle Member Posts: 3
    No more Government Motors for me ....I was fed up with them 10 years ago with the worst vehicle I have ever owned. I arbitrated for a year or so to get them to fix that piece of crap and finally I told them to remember this conversation and that there was trouble on the way on account of how they conducted their business." Well the proof is in the puddin"...............We as a family have 4 Toyotas....everyone of them is next to nothing to maintain. My son's Tacoma has been under water 2 times is always covered with mud and severely neglected it now has over 175K on it and runs fine. My wife is driving a 94 Landcruiser with 260+K on it and runs like the day we bought it.I don't do anything different with it. I just change the oil put on the brake pads and tires and belts.???? Love the Toyotas and will buy another one when and if we get tired of driving the ones we have now. Who knows we might buy a new one and keep the ones we have you know they are kinda like pets........
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    But they still will NOT PAY BACKTHE BAILOUT.

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration's pay czar is reducing 2010 compensation for top executives at GMAC Inc. because the auto finance giant continues to lose money and has no strategy for repaying its $16.3 billion taxpayer bailout, according to people familiar with the negotiations.

    The people say only one of the 25 highest earners at GMAC will earn more than $500,000 in cash, and CEO Michael Carpenter will receive only stock compensation.

    They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the talks.

    Executive compensation at GMAC is subject to oversight by Treasury special master Kenneth Feinberg. He must approve pay packages or policies for the top 100 earners at companies that rely on "extraordinary assistance" from the government.


    Regards,
    OW
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    The Malibu came 6th of out 7. And Motor Trend is the magazine that is usually easy on GM cars, and generally appears excited about future GM cars.

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_1005_best_selling_midsize_family_- sedan_comparison/index.html
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    The Malibu came 6th of out 7. And Motor Trend is the magazine that is usually easy on GM cars, and generally appears excited about future GM cars.

    I was shocked to see that my favorite dog in that fight, the Nissan Altima, came in last! In all fairness though, it looks like all those cars in the comparison did pretty well, so it's not that the lowest-ranked cars were horrible cars, necessarily, but just that the others were better.

    I think it's interesting that they said the Altima felt the most cramped inside. The Altima is actually one of the few cars where I don't have to put the seat all the way back to be comfortable! The only other cars I can think of in recent memory capable of that are my '76 LeMans and my grandmother's 85 LeSabre, both of which have power seats that can get into some extremely contorted positions, to the point I can barely reach the pedals.

    And somehow, even with that front seat all the way back, I could still fit in the back seat of the Altima.
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    edited March 2010
    In a related matter and in their April issue, Motor Trend has also criticized Whitacre's desire to move forward the release of the next generation 2013 Malibu and Cadillac XTS from Fall 2012 to January 2012. Motor Trend says Whitacre apparently doesn't understand that the vehicle needs to take its time under development in order to be presented with the quality and refinement GM currently needs.

    Note to Whitacre: Borrow a page from Ford! Let the next generation takes its time under development. Plan a major 2011 midcycle refreshing for the then-three-year-old car. Improve what needs to be improved from interior quality to taillight design to engines with direct injection from Buick.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Note to Whitacre: Borrow a page from Ford! Let the next generation takes its time under development. Plan a major 2011 midcycle refreshing for the then-three-year-old car. Improve what needs to be improved from interior quality to taillight design to engines with direct injection from Buick.

    I'm really impressed with what Ford did with the Fusion. It shows that a car doesn't have to be all-new to be a competitive car. It is possible to take an existing platform and improve upon it.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I agree Andre.

    None of these cars are bad and I imagine most on this board would rate those 7 cars differently if we had the opportunity to test them based on our preferences.

    My dad has an 09 Accord and my brother has an 08 Altima. It's not an apples to apples comparison because my dad's is loaded Ex-L v6 and my brother's Altima is a 4cyl S model I think. Both are nice cars, but the Honda feels higher quality in the way it drives and feels. That said, I like the Altima too, the design feels a bit dated now as it probably is the oldest car in the test. And while the db level may not be high in the Altima, it's been a long time since Nissan has made a Honda smooth 4cyl. It still has a course sound even if it is muffled.

    Anyone who thinks Toyota is going down the tubes are fooling themselves. This test shows why they just keep selling. I don't want one, but they do what 90% of the buying public like. They're quiet, refined, easy to use, and economical. There is a reason vanilla is the best selling flavor of ice cream and the Camry appears to be the Vanilla flavor of cars. We'll see how long their "pedal" problem affects them.

    That said, I'm not surprised by the Malibu's placement. I've yet to drive a GM 4cyl vehicle I've liked. I don't like the way they sound and GM IMO uses way to tall gearing in every one of their vehicles. But the Malibu is definitely the best mainstream family sedan GM has had in years if not decades.

    Ford seems to be on a roll, we'll see how long they can keep it up.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,058
    GM IMO uses way to tall gearing in every one of their vehicles.

    They have been doing that for a long time. My 99 S-10 V6 will downshift to creep up 3-5 MPH at 65 as would my 98 Olds 88 with the 3800. It helps with fuel economy.

    But the Malibu is definitely the best mainstream family sedan GM has had in years if not decades.

    My brother just got a new Malibu 4cyl. He likes it a lot, I know the interior is a lot nicer than I thought it was. I do find it a bit on the small side for a midsizer, though.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    It shows that a car doesn't have to be all-new to be a competitive car. It is possible to take an existing platform and improve upon it.

    Yeah, it seems Ford has been faster to update models vs. GM. Look at the Focus, F150, Expedition, Taurus/500, Mustang, and Fusion. None have gone more than 4 years I think w/o significant updates since '04 or so. Regarding the Taurus, I'm talking about since the 500 was introduced, before that Ford left the Taurus to die.

    The Focus is a much older car than the Cobalt, yet Ford has refreshed several times to where it appears much fresher than the cobalt. The 500/Taurus has been updated twice since 05.

    The Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban went from basically '00 -'07 unchanged, the F150 was updated in 04 and 09. The Expedition was updated in '03 and then again in '07.

    Seems like GM makes a huge upgrade then lets them get old. I wonder how long the Malibu will go w/o a refresh? The Impala is all but dead, even the CTS will be due for a refresh, how long will it go until it gets one?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    They have been doing that for a long time. My 99 S-10 V6 will downshift to creep up 3-5 MPH at 65 as would my 98 Olds 88 with the 3800. It helps with fuel economy.

    Even with the 6 speeds GM is gearing taller than anyone else. I'll take the extra response over absolute max fuel economy. I can't see where having to push the gas pedal 1/2 way down so I can accelerate 3-5 mph being fuel efficient.

    I test drove a 6 speed Yukon and it would do over 40 in 1st gear, my 6 speed Expedition will barely go 25, IIRC 4k rpm in 1st gear is 20 mph. It's great for responsiveness and towing and 6th gear is still tall enough for 2k rpm @70 with 3.73 gears.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Even with the 6 speeds GM is gearing taller than anyone else. I'll take the extra response over absolute max fuel economy.

    With 6 gears shouldn't they be able to do both? They could have a high 6th and lower 1st, 2nd, etc. Given that at one time cars had 2 or 3 speed automatics, 6 speeds is a LOT of gears.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    With 6 gears shouldn't they be able to do both? They could have a high 6th and lower 1st, 2nd, etc. Given that at one time cars had 2 or 3 speed automatics, 6 speeds is a LOT of gears.

    They do, but in the Suburban, GM saddles it to a standard 3.08 axle ratio and a 3.42 is optional. Ford uses a 3.31 standard and 3.73 optional which also standard on the Expedition EL.

    Here are the ratio's between ford and GM 1/2 ton trucks/SUV
    GM F old gm 4speed
    1st 4.03 4.17 3.06
    2nd 2.36 2.34 1.63
    3rd 1.53 1.52 1.00
    4th 1.15 1.14 .7
    5th .85 .87
    6th .67 .69

    Now remember the standard ratio in the GM is a 3.08/3.42 optional vs. Ford 3.31/3.73.

    My Expedition has the 3.73 ratio, then consider Ford's 5.4 has considerable more torque at a lower rpm vs. the 5.3 and you see why I much prefer this setup over GM's for towing (6.2 would be nice, but expensive to equip with that engine). Pulling my boat up a steep boat ramp is effortless with the Ford setup.
    Look at the old 4 speed ratios. That's what I had in my Suburban, though it did have 3.73 gears to help, but those ratios were horrible when towing. Add hills and it was torture.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    edited March 2010
    ".......I don't care if it was 3 or 3 million, I have read not just on edmunds but a few people on other sites having electrical troubles and its a bit disconcerting;"

    Well, it IS happening elsewhere too;

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f1b3717/0!make=Hyundai&model=Genesis&ed_m- akeindex=.f1b3717
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    If it's any consolation, It's now been 3 months and two days since I took delivery of my '00 Park Ave, and nothing's broken on it yet! :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    I was thinking about your Park Avenue while I was driving to Cincinnati today. Glad to hear it's doing well. Would we expect any less of her?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....They have been doing that for a long time. My 99 S-10 V6 will downshift to creep up 3-5 MPH at 65 as would my 98 Olds 88 with the 3800. It helps with fuel economy."

    Are you sure it downshifts, or that the torque converter didn't just unlock. It should unlock befor it downshifts.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "..... I wonder how long the Malibu will go w/o a refresh? The Impala is all but dead, even the CTS will be due for a refresh, how long will it go until it gets one?"

    I believe we see a new Malibu for 2012.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    usually I agree with most of MotorTrends test but in this case I couldn't disagree with Motortrends comparison tests! except for the new 2011 Sonata, I test drove all these vehicles at some point last summer and I can tell you that Altima should DEFINITELY not be in last place nor in Hell's Hot should the Camry be in 1st, especially with their recent safety and quality problems not to mention the car has the most bland and boring interior of the bunch!

    I don't know what these editors at MotorTrend were smoking but the ranking should have went more like this! this is all based on my comparisons of the quality inside and outside the vehicle, ride quality/handling balance, fun of driving, etc

    (1) Fusion (2) Sonata (3) Altima (4) Accord (5) Legacy (6) Camry (7) Malibu

    if anything, the Altima has a whole stood out and was more fun to drive then its Japanese competition and Nissan has past Toyota in interior quality; on two separate test drives of the Camry and on one with the Malibu I was able to detach pieces of the center console off, one time having it fall off itself!

    keep in mind too, I'm basing the Sonata ranking on everything I've read of other people test driving it as of right now! I'm hoping I can get a chance to test drive it sometime this spring because I really like what Hyundai has done with the car; of all the test drives I did last year, I found that the Fusion and Altima had the best bodystyle, best ride/handling balance, and were the most fun to drive and I think offer the best bang for your buck! If I had to buy a mid-size sedan tomorrow it probably would be a decision between the Fusion and Altima, and maybe Sonata once I test drove it!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    "..... I wonder how long the Malibu will go w/o a refresh? The Impala is all but dead, even the CTS will be due for a refresh, how long will it go until it gets one?"

    Since the interior on the 'bu is already nice, I'd like to see GM 1) work on the reliability (they must keep statistical data on warranty repairs, right?) of the most troublesome parts or areas of the vehicle, and then 2) work on the restyling of the outside to improve the appearance. Those two areas are IMHO the biggest obstacles to the Malibu being fully competitive (other than GM's image, which will take time).
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,058
    edited March 2010
    Are you sure it downshifts, or that the torque converter didn't just unlock. It should unlock befor it downshifts

    I think on the S-10 now that you say it may be the TC unlocking, however, on the Olds 88 it usually downshifted especially on any incline. It was never a huge deal, just would have preferred a little more power in 4th gear. That car was such a nightmare that was the least of my worries.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    It was never a huge deal, just would have preferred a little more power in 4th gear. That car was such a nightmare that was the least of my worries.

    I really don't have a lot of experience with overdrive transmissions, but now that you mention it, I've noticed that the GM 4-speeds I've had did seem more sluggish in overdrive than the one Mopar I've had...my 2000 Intrepid. I used to think the Intrepid was kinda gutless in top gear, but it seems to do better in that gear than my Park Ave does. Now, when I need to stomp on it, the Park Ave takes off like a scalded beaver, so in the end, it's definitely faster. But the Intrepid did seemto perform better in that top gear. But then, that might be one reason the Park Ave gets such good mileage out on the highway. At 75 mph I think it's pulling around 1800-2000 rpm, while my Intrepid was pulling 2500.

    I still haven't had a chance to give the Park Ave a good, long highway run, so I'm looking forward to the spring swap meet at Carlisle PA in late April, which usually kicks off the car show season for us here. My Intrepid could get around 30 mpg on that trip if I didn't push it too hard. I borrowed my uncle's '03 Corolla once for that trip, and got something like 37.5 mpg. So I'm curious to see how the Park Ave compares. It was pretty thirsty at first, but now that the weather's warming up, it seems to be doing better.

    The other two GM cars I had with overdrive were an '86 Monte Carlo and an '85 LeSabre. However, with those cars, they were geared so tall anyway, you just took it for granted that overdrive was for economy only, and nothing else. I think the Monte had a 2.56:1 axle, and the LeSabre had a 2.73:1. So, throw in overdrive, and the effective final ratio on either one of those is well under 2.00:1. I do remember the LeSabre did have some guts in overdrive, once you buried its 85 mph speedo. IIRC, the 307 got its peak torque at 1600 rpm and peak hp at 3200, so once you got up over 85 mph, it was probably still near its peak torque output in top gear.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    don't know what these editors at MotorTrend were smoking but the ranking should have went more like this! this is all based on my comparisons of the quality inside and outside the vehicle, ride quality/handling balance, fun of driving, etc

    (1) Fusion (2) Sonata (3) Altima (4) Accord (5) Legacy (6) Camry (7) Malibu


    If I was to rank these cars, based solely on my preferences, which are anything BUT scientific, I think it would be something like

    1. Altima
    2. Fusion (however, it would be a close #2, I do like the Fusion)
    3. Accord (I think I'm one of the few that actually LIKES the style, and appreciates the fact that it got a bit bigger)
    4. Malibu (I like the overall shape, but the rear-end looks a bit unfinished, and I'm not too crazy about the front. And it's a bit small inside for my tastes)
    5/6/7 (tie) Legacy/Camry/Sonata.

    The only reason I throw those last three together is that I'm not crazy about the new Sonata's style, but maybe it'll grow on me. I never was crazy about Subarus, partly because I just don't need AWD, partly because I didnt' like the styling, and partly, because traditionally, they're designed for people about 5'10" or less. However, I've heard the new Legacy is a big improvement in all regards. And the Camry is just too much of an appliance, I guess.

    Still, I don't think there's a wrong choice or a loser in the bunch!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    But then, that might be one reason the Park Ave gets such good mileage out on the highway. At 75 mph I think it's pulling around 1800-2000 rpm, while my Intrepid was pulling 2500.

    The rule of thumb is that the happier the EPA is the less happy the owner is if they want to drive in any manner that isn't like that of an 80 year old person. That said, the car drives fin if you manually lock out overdrive. But then again the MPG drops to 23 highway, which is coincidentally exactly what they got back in the 80s before they added that overdrive gear.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Now, when I need to stomp on it, the Park Ave takes off like a scalded beaver,

    Hey, you need to use a better analogy! I have a whole colony of beavers living in the pond in my back yard. I chase them out of the yard from time to time, they are far from fast, scalded or not;) Though they can swim at a good clip! LOL

    I'm just messing with ya. I know what you mean though. My Suburban was the same way. Gutless in o/d, but what irritated me more was the reluctance to downshift. At 65mph in o/d it usually required 3/4 pedal to downshift, then if you pushed down a hair further it would kick down from o/d to 2nd, making me look like a complete [non-permissible content removed] to my wife who's wondering what the hell am I doing.

    The 6 speed in my Expedition is much better in that regard. While it doesn't have much power in 6th/od either, it is much quicker to downshift a gear or two and since the ratios are closer together it's far more seamless. That is probably what I like most about a 5 or 6 speed auto. The ratios being closer makes for smoother performance.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    No, I think the analogy was correct. It furiously waddles and lurches around trying to outrun you. That sounds about right... :P
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    It furiously waddles and lurches around trying to outrun you. That sounds about right... :P

    LOL. From that perspective, I think your right.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited March 2010
    Interesting news...

    General Motors is mulling a radical re-engineering for the Chevrolet Corvette, centered on a more fuel-efficient, mid-engined V6 powertrain, a lightweight alloy body and a more compact footprint.

    The idea is to re-energize GM's ambition for the Corvette, with fundamental changes that will make it into a contemporary global supercar. The changes are penciled into GM's product plan for the next major model change, the C8, with an on-sale date around 2016. Both coupe and convertible models are planned.


    V-6 in the middle

    Time to plan on buying you last v-8 'Vette!

    Regards,
    OW
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited March 2010
    Thanks for the heads-up on C7 & C8 info, circlew. I hope to be fortunate enough to buy my first&last V8 corvette some day and would surely prefer the V8.
    (A V6 corvette might be ok with me but only if it were a diesel!)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Hey, 400 HP is ok no matter how many cylinders...particularly if it's also less weight.

    It ain't that bad!

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I got an oil change at Audi the other day, and the dealer by me uses Enterprise for 90% of their fleet of loaner cars, and 10% Audi's, so most of the time you get an Enterprise car.

    I got a brand new Chevy Cobalt with about 2,300 miles on it.

    I was impressed by how far they've come from the Chevy Malibu Classic which was the last real GM I drove as a rental (not counting the lame Pontiac Grand Prix with the supercharged V6, or the Aveo I drove recently too; which didn't impress).

    The Cobalt is actually somewhat refined. The engine has some decent pulling power at high RPM's, and it doesn't sound like its going to explode doing it. The interior plastics are still cheap and hard, but not excessively so. They are acceptable considering the price group. I don't like how there was no O/D button on the tranny. The radio controls were convoluted and difficult to learn.

    But overall, I think they've come light years from the malibu classic with this new Cobalt. It's not in the same league as a new Civic, but it's a decent car. Much better than the Cavalier I once drove as a rental many years ago. It handled OK, but did get a bit squirrly when I had some fun with it.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited March 2010
    good point, OW.
    Porsche seems to do OK with six cylinder engines, and GM did have those GN/GNX V6s... :)
    I sort of like Cobalt too, but I'd still prefer my VW TDI with 100k miles to a new Cobalt...
    I'd especially like a Cobalt SS if it were available without the huge spoiler...
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