GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Was not a hostile takeover ... was billed as a "merger of equals", though in the end, Daimler ended up running Chrysler.

    Find the book "Taken for a Ride", which details the DC merger. Fascinating reading.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Well, I imagine the city EPA figure won't move, but the extra-tall 6th gear should be good for 2 or 3 points on the highway, which would equate to approximately 50 mpg in the old (pre-2008) system. Which is pretty darn impressive for a compact car.

    But no dealer will stock them because they are manual-only, and the few people like me that might buy one will find that they can't have cruise control (or A/C, or dare I say it? A moonroof!) because Eco is really code for "stripped" even though GM vigorously denies that


    Perhaps this is a smart(?) marketing move - make a very low volume variant that almost nobody will buy, but it gives GM the advertising angle of a "highest mileage small car". But it might get people into the showrooms.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If they go up to near $4/gal, expect that big SUVs like the Slade will be sitting in dealer's lots.

    Yep, happens every time! Oh well, less profit for GM.

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    If they go up to near $4/gal, expect that big SUVs like the Slade will be sitting in dealer's lots.

    Yep, happens every time! Oh well, less profit for GM.

    Regards,
    OW


    That's when I'll buy my next full size truck or SUV, let the lemmings take the hit when they run for cover for a more fuel efficient vehicle. I'll buy my next Expedition or Suburban one year old and for less than 1/2 of MSRP. That's what happened when I bought my 07 Expedition in the summer of 08 when gas was $4+/gal. All that money saved will by a lot of gas.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    That's when I'll buy my next full size truck or SUV, let the lemmings take the hit when they run for cover for a more fuel efficient vehicle. I'll buy my next Expedition or Suburban one year old and for less than 1/2 of MSRP. That's what happened when I bought my 07 Expedition in the summer of 08 when gas was $4+/gal. All that money saved will by a lot of gas.

    I'm almost tempted to use the next fuel crisis as an excuse to replace my '85 Silverado with a newer truck. But, unless the '85 is about to fall apart, I guess it would still be an unneccessary expense.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    In about 2 weeks we will hit $3 a gallon. As soon as the Indy 500 race teams get to town it jumps until 2 days after the race when it starts to recede. It then drops 10 of 15 cents for 3 days until the summer driving season starts. today was $2.77 a gallon.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    Fortune says that because of last year's bailout and massive plant closings and layoffs, the carmaker now holds the 15th slot among the heavy-hitters of the business world. Meanwhile, rival Ford has managed to hold onto its place among the top 10 corporations.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    link title

    A couple of weeks back I saw the rear end or something blow out on one of these things. Couple that with the recall for snapping driveshafts and maybe it's good that they offer a V6 model :P
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The $60 billion is based on 2 million auto workers, including suppliers, suppliers of suppliers, etc.for a total of 2 million out of the 15 million unemployed.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited April 2010
    The $60 billion is based on 2 million auto workers, including suppliers, suppliers of suppliers, etc.for a total of 2 million out of the 15 million unemployed.

    Very responsible management in other auto manufacturers never needed a bailout. Why this simple truth is avoided is the reason that this failure continues to happen. You can't borrow and not pay back (the reason for the financial failure) and making horrible decisions in GM, C and F is not a free ride. The pendulum ALWAYS swings back.

    When the company fails, it should cease to exist. The universe has been operating this way for eons. What one thinks as saving is another way of avoiding the inevitable and the underlying "good decision for the bailout" actually hurts the staff which clings on for dear life to "union jobs" that are changed forever.

    The final wrong decision is keeping the "GM" badge. :lemon:

    Regards,
    OW
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Couldnt have said it better myself.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited April 2010
    GM Could Be in Hot Water With FTC Over Truth in Advertising

    Misleading claims

    Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley's charge was backed up by the inspector general for the bailout — also known as the Trouble Asset Relief Program, or TARP. Watchdog Neil Barofsky told Fox News, as well as the Senate Finance Committee, that General Motors used bailout money to pay back the federal government.

    "It appears to be nothing more than an elaborate TARP money shuffle," Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a letter Thursday to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner.


    Well, meet the new GM. Same as the old GM. The company is still majority-owned by the federal government, which has a 60 percent stake in the Detroit titan; the Canadian government owns another 12 percent.

    GM is not yet solvent, continues to be racked by debt and is still unable to turn a profit — something that has eluded the company since 2004. GM filed for bankruptcy in 2009 but was saved from collapse by a $52 billion infusion from the federal government.


    :lemon:
  • bvdj84bvdj84 Member Posts: 1,724
    I am not surprised that they would do something like this! How in the world are we ever going to trust or believe they have changed into a new, efficient company. That has quality cars that the people "need" not want.

    We loan them money, and they do us over like this...! Surprising? No!
    Never will I lease, purchase, own a GM product again. Because, this alone is reason enough not to. What they stand for and stabbing us all in the back. Acting like we're just dumb! We're not.


    GM, you really blew it....yet again! I hope the face some major consequences for the lying.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I am not surprised that they would do something like this! How in the world are we ever going to trust or believe they have changed into a new, efficient company. That has quality cars that the people "need" not want.

    But don't forget, they make the "best cars in the world". ;)
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited April 2010
    They DO make the BEST CARS in the world!!! :):D :shades:
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    They DO make the BEST CARS in the world!!!

    Lemko, I know that if I ever wanted a GM I would beat a path to your door and beg to buy one of yours!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    I just saw this email pop into my inbox, from "Your GM Team"...

    We are proud to announce we have repaid our government loan – in full, with interest, five years ahead of the original schedule. We realize we still have more to do. Our goal is to exceed every expectation you've set for us. We're designing, building and selling the best cars and trucks in the world. Like the award-winning Chevy Malibu, the all-new Buick LaCrosse, the versatile Cadillac CTS Sport Wagon and the innovative GMC Terrain, just to name a few. We invite you to learn more about the new GM and join our community, by visiting gm.com.

    Susan E. Docherty
    Vice President, U.S. Marketing


    I wonder if it's really just a cut-and-paste, with appropriate names and models changed, of a press release that Lee Iaccocca sent out in 1983? :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I got the same email the other day.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    They just converted the debt to equity. That's the equity that the US government owns. So this is basically a bookeeping shell game - take some of the money the government used to buy out most of the company, and use it to repay the loan that the government gave -- then claim a bunch of PR about repaying the loan!

    Sort of like the 5 years of Volt PR. Tons of advanced PR for things that have not happened yet is GM's pattern. I'm not denying that GM has improved their products and is on the right track, but it would be nice if they would quit their promising of vaporware and get with actually focusing on the future product introductions. They appear to be more about marketing than products, and that is what got them into this mess in the first place. Until GM quits this overhyping of everything, I'll not believe that they have really changed. Oh, and also show some positive cash flow and profits.

    Saying they've repaid the loan is just blowing smoke around their still dire financial position.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    What a joke! Their cars are as real as their company! I don't care if you call them an American company. I'm ashamed they are based in the U.S.A. - they symbolize all the greed, deception and mismanagement that has tarnished our image around the world.

    I can't WAIT until they are discontinued as a U.S. company. :lemon:

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    they symbolize all the greed, deception and mismanagement that has tarnished our image around the world.

    What the US government should have done is push the GM approach on GM itself-- talk about the big loan for about 5 years before actually providing the money! And then GM would have been gone already. "What? You want it *at the time* it is being promised?"
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    ".....I can't WAIT until they are discontinued as a U.S. company."

    I'll never say never, but I think that the government would be hard pressed by public opinion to not sell their "stock" in an IPO to a foreign entity, especially the Chinese. I think that the public would see this as giving them too much power in business stateside. Besides, there are far better companies for the CHinese to invest in in this country.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, but since they already have a Fiat-like deal going in China and stateside their decisions and image are in the toilet, the Gov't would be hard pressed to stop a Chinese IPO purchase. This would allow GM to grow even FASTER in the market they are doing well at and hopefully the Chinese can run GM better than the empty suits currently. That would help grow a defiant consumer base who know the real GM and continue to shun the company....except for the Lemko, of course! :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Absolutely correct. By the time the funding actually came around, the locks would be on all of the factories and the Detroit Palace!!

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    This is an issue that both sides will argue. Opponents will say GM just moved TARP money around. Supporters will say the loan was paid out of revenues, not TARP equity investment monies. How do you decide - the CPA firms will just support whichever side is paying them. Personally, I think its sort of mute since its all cash flow. The government can use the repaid loan cash and GM gets to stop paying interest on it out of cash flow. The GM rescue was a jobs program started under George W and continued under Obama to keep the financial fiasco from going deeper into a possible depression. GM, and particularly its vendors cover a lot of jobs territory in a large number of states. I think you can probably defend the GM bailout on industrial base grounds when you include the potentially impacted vendors and subcontractors and it likely saved far more jobs than the much bigger Wall Street bailouts (and GM isn't paying their executives anywhere near what the bailed out Wall Street firms are). Actually, I'm also not sure how the GM bailout is much different than the lucrative state giveaways to the transplant producers, even though their congressmen were some of the biggest bitchers. Also, remember Ford and a lot of the transplants were lobbying for the GM bailout fearing the consequences on their shared vendor base. People can argue that the transplants were just being political, but if you understand the industry you know the vendor failure concerns were real. Having said that, Mullaly and Ford were far ahead of Wagoner and GM in seeing the upcoming crisis and obtaining cash sources to help weather it (although GM may have already been too far gone to be able to pull it off anyway). Unfortunately, Ford is now at a disadvantage in some financial areas because of GM bankruptcy revisions and the UAW concessions. However, I think the Chrysler bailout was purely political. The company isn't that big and doesn't have the potential vendor impact of Ford and GM. Look at the Cerberus investors - they cover both sides of Capital Hill. Now, name me a country that doesn't directly or indirectly help their industries in tough times???
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Actually, I'm also not sure how the GM bailout is much different than the lucrative state giveaways to the transplant producers...

    Well, for one thing the transplants are actually profitable, which means they pay income taxes in the states and to the Federal government. I wonder how many income taxes GM has been paying lately?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Conversely, how much property taxes are the transplants paying? They got a bunch of breaks in most cases including taxpayers subsidizing infrastructure and other start up costs.

    As for GM, many dealers are paying income tax, which wouldn't be the case now if it had folded. A lot of the vendors shared with Ford and the transplants would also be paying a lot less income tax had GM folded. And a lot of "former" employees of the defunct companies would be paying a lot less income tax and pulling unemployment compensation.

    Bottom line, GM may or may not make it, but a slower failure will be less catastrophic in most areas than a sudden Chapter 7 would have been. Personally, I'm not writing them off yet.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah? When that happens, I could care less if countries start slinging ICBMs at each other because, as far as I'm concerned, the world has ended. I'd sooner see the earth burnt to a cinder and the ashes flung into the void than live in a world without a GM! :mad:

    I'm exponentially proud that GM is an American company! They have practically invented the modern corporation. They symbolize all that is great about America! To me, General Motors is something godly! Their cars are my religion!
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    edited April 2010
    They have practically invented the modern corporation.

    MIght make that: Have invented a model of one of the most incompetently run American corporations in US history.

    Am amazed by devotion to one consumer brand above all else when facts, data, results have shown over last 3+ decades a decline in market share of GM and also decline in quality/reliability as reported by magazines and others. Yes, GM products have been improving in last 5+ years, but so have Ford and the foreign brands.

    They symbolize all that is great about America.

    It was great that GM was bleeding billions in recent years, year after year? Needed taxpayer bailout to stay afloat, so far?

    There are so many better examples of great American companies - Deere, Caterpillar, Baxter, 3M, P&G, General Mills, Boeing, Medtronic, Apple, Cisco, etc.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    There are so many better examples of great American companies - Deere, Caterpillar, Baxter, 3M, P&G, General Mills, Boeing, Medtronic, Apple, Cisco, etc.

    I agree, GM IMO has been a national embarrassment for several decades, they've made enough bad decisions over the past several decades to fill text books at B schools around the world..

    I don't have blind loyalty to any company. Period. I certainly respect some more than others, but I'm not going to buy a companies product just because they were competitive 40 years ago.

    I'll buy another GM product as soon as they have a product that I like more than any competing model from other makes. I don't see that happening for a while, but who knows. If I was in the market for a nice sedan, the Lacrosse would be on my shopping list for sure.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I'm exponentially proud that GM is an American company! They have practically invented the modern corporation. They symbolize all that is great about America! To me, General Motors is something godly! Their cars are my religion!

    You are in the minority. Look at Fortune's most admired companies:

    http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/mostadmired/2010/full_list/

    GM is not even on the list. Toyota is near the top.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited April 2010
    You are in the minority. Look at Fortune's most admired companies:

    GM retail customers are in the minority. I don't know to many people that have a positive view of GM right now. Most I talk to still plan to avoid their products. That's probably part of the reason Ford is riding high right now. Another good qtr. by our best auto manufacturer.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited April 2010
    Whose opinion? Certainly not mine! GM will always have me as a customer! I would follow GM to hell, even if it meant leaving heaven to do so! Toyota's near the bottom of my list. The only company worse is Wal~Mart. I'd hold Enron and Worldcom in more esteem. GM will always have me as a customer!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I would follow GM to hell

    I have and it's not pleasant. Hell, is the best way I can explain my experience with the GM vehicles I've had to endure.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    GM will always have me as a customer!

    Lemko -- I just know there is an Audi or Lexus with your name on it!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    Lemko -- I just know there is an Audi or Lexus with your name on it!

    Can't the Audis...the bigger expensive ones at least, be pretty hell-acious themselves, once they're a few years old?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I don't know to many people that have a positive view of GM right now. Most I talk to still plan to avoid their products. (Except Lemko...getting a little lonely at the moment...)

    That's why Caddy wants to distance themselves from GM. Let's make it easy for them....let Ford takeover Cadillac!

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited April 2010
    Good God! NO!!! Not FORD!!! Look what they did to Lincoln - nothing but a collection of crappy SUVs and crossovers and two miserable truncated underpowered V-6 sedans. I have a Grand Marquis and it is bleeehhhh!!! :sick: Gimme a Buick any day!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    nothing but a collection of crappy SUVs and crossovers and two miserable truncated underpowered V-6 sedans.

    Well an Ecoboost MKS will smoke anything Cadillac has that doesn't have V on the end.

    Look at the new SRX, talk about under powered with the lousy 3.0 v6. Outside the the CTS, the whole line up can be tossed out IMO.

    But I do agree that Ford hasn't done much with Lincoln. The most important thing is Ford has turned a profit over the past 2 quarters.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The only thing Lincoln has that would even remotely interest me is the antediluvian Town Car and even it's going away. I don't care what any MKS would smoke. I'd have to be smoking massive boulders of crack to even look at that ugly heap. Cadillacs are better than Lincolns! Fuhgeddaboutit!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Cadillacs are better than Lincolns! Fuhgeddaboutit!

    That's not saying much. They are both pretty sad and unfortunately are not even in the ball park when it comes to vehicles people aspire to.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,072
    Cadillacs are better than Lincolns! Fuhgeddaboutit!

    Right now, I would have to admit yes... however IMO from the late 70s until the mid/late 90s I personally think Lincoln had the advantage. What did Caddy have that could compete with the Mark VII when it first came out? How about the 90 Town Car (won car of the year IIRC).

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I've aspired to a Cadillac and have attained it. As far as I'm concerned, there IS NO OTHER CHOICE! Anything beyond a Cadillac is a collossal waste of money IMHO. I could have a fortune bigger than the combined fortunes of Bill Gates, the Walton family, Warren Buffett, Ted Turner, and Rupert Murdoch and I'd STILL choose the car I bought over all others - the Cadillac DTS!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    What did Caddy have that could compete with the Mark VII when it first came out? How about the 90 Town Car (won car of the year IIRC).

    Yeah, I remember the Town Car back then, it was impressive for the day, unfortunately it was basically left to die a disgraceful death. Those Mark VII LSCs were sweet. That was probably the last time I looked at a Lincoln with envy.

    As for Cadillac, I've never liked anything really. I always found them to be "old man" cars, kind of like Buick, but for those old people with more money to waste. Now I find the CTS appealing, but that's about it.

    Ford really screwed up back then. All that money they earned from the late 80's and 90's was thrown out the window essentially. Think of what they could have done with Lincoln if the money spent on Jag, Aston, and Rover was actually spent on developing a world class Lincoln and Mercury products? Not saying they wouldn't have wasted in on bad products anyway (as both GM and Ford seem to be good at), but the potential for greatness was there.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...could be my next ride:

    image
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The CTS would be a perfect car for my petite wife. As for me, it is way too small. However, she prefers Buicks and is eyeing up a loaded LaCrosse CXS..
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    That is a sharp looking car. When is the XTS going to be out? Hope they offer something beyond the 3.6 and 3.6 hybrid. Twin turbo 3.6? Since Northstar development is over they don't have many options. I don't think the 6.2 has enough polish to pull off luxury car duty.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The CTS would be a perfect car for my petite wife. As for me, it is way too small. However, she prefers Buicks and is eyeing up a loaded LaCrosse CXS..

    Nothing wrong with a LaCrosse CXS. The loaded CXS model look sharp, I don't care for the base models as much.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,051
    What did Caddy have that could compete with the Mark VII when it first came out? How about the 90 Town Car (won car of the year IIRC).

    Well, they did have the Cadillac ETCetera, er, I mean, Eldorado Touring Coupe. It was actually a good looking car, with a firmer suspension, alloy wheels, and some blackout trim as I recall. But alas, it was stuck with that same sucky 4.1 aluminum V-8. Shame they didn't see fit to throw a Buick turbo under the hood, like what you could get with the Riviera T-type. But yeah, the Mark VII pretty much blew GM out of the water when it came out, and I don't think GM ever really caught back up. The final Eldorados and Rivieras were nice, though.

    The '90 Town Car was a really nice car...sad thing is, I think those 90's models were nicer than the ones today! They went to sort of a funky style around '98 with a bolder grille and more sloping rear and more rounded roofline that seemed to cut down on interior space. But then as the years went by, it seemed like they were starting to cheapen the interiors. Even though you still had the leather and lots of nice features, the hard plastic was starting to rear its ugly head, as was faker looking plood, cheaper-looking switchgear, etc. It started getting to the point that it felt like a taxi with leather seats.

    Personally, I think I'd take a '90-92 Caddy Brougham, especially if I could find one with a 350! The big whale-like '93-96 was cool too, if a bit overblown and disproportionate. But once they got the LT-1 engine, it was kinda like an Impala SS in drag. But, to the general public, it seemed like the Town Car was the way to go. I think part of Caddy's problem was that they divided their market by having the FWD DeVille and the RWD Fleetwood/Brougham, whereas Lincoln went with just one model.
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