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But, not doubt in a straight line, it looks like a Regal would be staring at the Sonata's rear end. But their is a lot more to a car than just 0-60 times. I seriously hope the Regal offers a more refined driving experience, if not, then well, that would be the same ole, same ole, from GM.
I've read a lot of positive things about the new Sonata and it is an impressive offering. But it appears (from what I've read) that Hyundai still hasn't match the competition when it comes to suspension tuning (not that GM has excelled in that area either, IMO but they seem to be getting better).
The reason we're complaining about the $350/pp or whatever the amount is that the U.S. gave GM and Chrysler in a loan/buyout/grant ... is THOSE AND EVEN SMALLER HANDOUTS over the years is how we're killing ourselves. We're going to die from a million small to medium cuts, there is no one single give-away (stab to the heart) that kills us.
We need to have every level of government stop giving money away or making promises of futrue handouts that we can't afford. We need to stop spending every dime we have when times are good, and then when times turn bad realize we can't afford all we promised.
Many of us want to draw a line in the sand, and say NO MORE. We want politicians to stop spending and cut. Stop the corporate handouts. Stop the foreign aid handouts. Stop the technology transfer to other countries so they can compete with us. If we just continue to say well what's one more handout, then we continue the trend, and nothing ever changes. I believe every once in a while in history there is a major change, like twhen this country was formed with its ideals. Or like when serfdom and slavery ended, or the corrupt version of Communism failed.
I'm happy that GM and Chrysler are now downsized and may not be too big to fail. The best thing that could happen is that we get 10 - 20 national auto producers and then if 1 of them goes under there won't be any big disruption, and the government can ignore their collapse like it should.
It's already starting to have any effect too, look at their sales. Toyota doesn't have anything I want either.
What about the Camry V-6? It can't be lighter than the Regal. Yet it delivers 20 city mpg compared to the Regal's 19 mpg, and still offers 86 more horses.
Cadillac borrows a turbo six from Saab; we wish it hadn’t.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q2/2010_cadillac_srx_2.8t-short_take_r- oad_test
Extra weight is never a substitute for proper engineering. The new cars are dangerously close to what a Park Avenue/S Class/Towncar/7Series/etc weighed ten years ago, and those were very "solid" cars.
Excess weight is like a cancer. It means you need larger engines(or a turbo), larger brakes, heavier suspension components, and on and on. 200lbs of weight means another 100+lbs to handle it, because you then have to factor in for the weight of the compensation(and on and on).
And of course, handling is garbage. There's no way that a 3500lb car will do what a 3000lb car will short of very expensive parts and many extra months of engineering. Case in point - the (base)CTS gets worse times around the Nurburgring than a typical little VW. Even the CTS-V can't beat a BMW E46(previous generation) M3. That said, it's a fantastic car. But it's also a big, heavy fantastic car as well.
Your forgetting that our tax money isn't supposed to be used to be in the LOAN business making 3%. I'd rather have my money with me so I can spend it how I see fit. Frankly, investing in GM has less of a chance of getting paid back than going to Vegas and betting it all on Black or having fun at the blackjack tables. That would be a wiser investment than GM; gambling.
Who says I want to settle for 3% on large sums of loans? I want 30%, or better yet, 100% from Casinos. You are losing the opportunity cost.
I have a problem with the gov't taxing us so much that they can afford to do bailouts. They should have all that extra money laying around (or really, they shouldn't be incurring all that extra debt).
But Honda isn't a failure like GM. Honda actually makes money, meaning they pay taxes on profits. Profits from GM have been a misnomer for over a decade now. They don't pay any taxes, they just suck us all dry.
Some of that may be true but I dont' think poor performance is. They still have a wonderful fuel efficient and powerful V6 engine that is top notch, and they are reliable, unlike GM's.
Toyota doesn't make anything I really want, (except maybe an IS-F) but they are darn reliable and cheap to run.
You'd be surprised. Typically, 40% of Sonata sales are fleet, and that IS rental car fleet, while the domestic "fleet" is broken up between rental, corporate, and government fleet.
I will agree that the Gov't wouldn't have bailed them out if not for the crisis, but I disagree that they would have gone bankrupt if not for the crisis. I use Ford to back up my claim.
Ford stands mortgaged to the hilt. Why, they got the credit they needed to consolidate and reposition their debt. Now, it appears that Ford may very well be making profits when it comes time to pay the piper. Profits derived from higher prices paid on their now better vehicles.
By the time GM was faced with this same situation (mid to late 2008), credit was frozen, and they went into a serious cash burn, coupled with the fact that the credit they could issue to potential customers was frozen by Cerberus Capital, majority stakeholder in GMAC. Today, GM is even making more on it's newer models than they were before the crisis.
If not for BK, would Pontiac, Saturn, and Hummer still be here?? I dunno. If they were, would that have an adverse effect on GM??? Maybe. But, we are where we are now, and can only wait and see how this continues to play out.
That is irrelevant. Success is measured by profitability and by not losing market share. GM FAILED COMPLETELY WHILE IT WAS #1 IN SALES!!!!
"We lose money on every unit, but we make it up in volume". :P
I don't know if this is still true, but in the past I've found that the US makes manage to simultaneously be heavier and still have dumpier interiors and fixtures. So yes they should be removing weight from their vehicles. Now I can understand why a Mercedes is heavier, but not a GM.
You could argue that since the bailout probably would not have occurred if it took a few more years, what actually happened was the best for GM. It forced them to do things their management and board were never willing to do, but needed to be done. I still don't think they've gone far enough - they need to tame the UAW, fire the remaining original board members, and dump Buick in the US.
Problem is, look at the competition. The LR3 and X5 that gen 1 was likened to (and over) sell like $h!t, compared to the Lexus and Acura variants. The gen 1 SRX is getting it's [non-permissible content removed] handed to it on a silver platter sales wise by the gen 2 SRX.
Provided that the gen 2 variant is at least on par (or better) than gen 1 in luxury and ammenities, and on par with the Lexus and Acura in those areas to (as well as sales), it's ok.
Caddy still has the CTS wagon to appease those people, and make up for the gen 1 SRX's paltry sales, too
That's a good sign; it's probably got a better interior and a more modern drivetrain. :shades:
I'd love to see a source that says 40% of Sonata sales goes to fleets! I have never heard that up to now, and if it is true, I would suspect that is on mostly 2010 leftover's and not 2011 Sonata's! I can not believe fleet sales would contribute that much to the new model's success because right now, its nipping on the Altima's heel's for 3rd place for mid-size sedan sales!
I do agree that it forced management to do things it wouldn't have done. But, if you look back to 2007, the labor agreement with the UAW managed to reduce costs significantly, with a new pay scale and the VEBA. Basically they told the UAW, you want lifetime HC bennies for the retirees, YOU handle it, and agrees to throw a wad of cash at them. This "wad of cash" ultimately ended up being the equity stake in the company. Right now, the UAW partly "owns" GM, and biting the hand that feeds them basically is biting their own hand. Now, if the UAW sells it's share of GM in an IPO and invests that cash elsewhere, you are right, they could be right back to playing hardball with GM, especially if they become sucessful (ie make a profit).
As far as Buick, I see the point, as you make Chevy the basic model up too near luxury, and Caddy takes over at near lux. and up, but be careful what you wish for. Would GM be willing to abandon the nameplate here, the Chiese may look at it from a "if it's not good enough for them, why is it good enough for me" standpoint, and sales there could collapse, hurting GM bigtime.
Yes, a rental will affect profits, as they tend to be base models and in the long run you flood the market with base model used cars. As far as semantics, tell me, when was the last time you considered buying a former police car or taxi for a used car? Didn't think so. That is a "good" fleet sale. Even the feds keep their cars longer term, and are sold at GSA auctions, not wholesale "dealer only" auctions. Another good sale.
As far as Hyundai's daily rental sales, I can't find anything about current (you have to pay for that). Here is something from 2006 about the then new last gen Sonata:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-143877636.html
But with GM, they still have too much fleet sales. Take the Impala as an example, we all know the car is a dud, poor quality, boring style, bad reliability, etc etc and it hasn't benefited from the recent model improvements, like the Malibu, Regal, LaCrosse, Equinox, etc have gotten yet Chevy is selling between 15-20k of them a month, the entirely majority going to fleet sales! That is crumbling that car's reputation and resale value yet GM continues to do it? Very puzzling if you ask me? But even when they finally redo and get out a new Impala, even if the thing has improved quality, reliability, style, etc etc and sells well for GM, its going to have an incredibly difficult time every raising its resale values, reputation, etc because of how many have gone to fleet sales over the last several years!
But with GM, they still have too much fleet sales. Take the Impala as an example, we all know the car is a dud, poor quality, boring style, bad reliability, etc etc and it hasn't benefited from the recent model improvements, like the Malibu, Regal, LaCrosse, Equinox, etc have gotten yet Chevy is selling between 15-20k of them a month, the entirely majority going to fleet sales! That is crumbling that car's reputation and resale value yet GM continues to do it? Very puzzling if you ask me? But even when they finally redo and get out a new Impala, even if the thing has improved quality, reliability, style, etc etc and sells well for GM, its going to have an incredibly difficult time every raising its resale values, reputation, etc because of how many have gone to fleet sales over the last several years!
http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Statistics/StatsViewer.aspx?file=http%3a%2f%2fww- w.automotive-fleet.com%2ffc_resources%2fstats%2fAFFB09-14-Top5.pdf&channel=
It is for 2008. If you notice, the Malibu isn't on the top 5, but the Impala is. But 48% of Impala's fleet sales went to LONG TERM (ie non daily rentals). Sonata doesn't even register on commercial or govt sales. I still cant find what % of total sales were to fleets.
I can't imagine what I'd buy that would serve me better for under 20k than a cpo impala ltz or lt with the leather package. Drove vw, audi, ford, hyundai,bmw midsize cars and the value for comfortable transportation for the impala is very good.. I don't speed, slalom or race at stoplights. What else could I possibly need? :shades:
In which way? size, comfort, appearance, materials, support, durability :confuse:
GM lost money so therefore they didn't pay taxes? Are you serious? Lets say they took in $56 billion and paid out 58 billion last year. Where do you think the 58 billion went? It ALL showed up on other's tax returns as income or revenue. AND it was all taxed. The part that was payroll got hit with 7.65% for soc. sec. from the employee, AND 7.65% tax paid in by GM or a supplier to GM. Honda builds their cars with robots and purchases many hi value, compact components from outside the US. That severely limits their payment of taxes within the US.
You actually thought $58B just vanished?
Further, since GM vehicles use so much gas, that adds even more tax money to the US coffers. I have to earn almost $5 to net enough money to buy a gallon of gas. In my silverado, that only gets me 15 miles around town. Most of the $5 ends up as tax income for the gov. In a Honda, I might have to drive twice as far to get my gov nearly $5 of tax income due to fuel use.
Further, GM outsells all others, therefore generating more sales tax for states than any other manufacturer, and in states like mine, more excise tax than any other brand is generated by GM.
Hyundai Sonata (2.4L - 200 hp): 22/35 mpg
Toyota Camry (3.5L - 268 hp): 20/29 mpg
Ford Mustang (3.7L - 305 hp): 19/30 mpg
Buick Regal (2.4L - 182hp): 19/30 mpg
My 14 yr old Buick (3.8L - 240 hp): 18/27 mpg (4 sp, 3650 lbs)
I routinely got 27.5 using regular on tanks with 40% city driving and got over 30 mpg on trips. V6 engines don't have to work as hard to steadily push 3800 lbs of car down the hwy as 4 cyl engines. Thus only the slight difference in mpg.
My new Chev (2.4L - 169 hp): 24/33 mpg (non turbo 6 sp)
My 4th tank since new returned 29.8 mpg with less than 50% hwy miles.
Car is 3630 lbs with me and empty tank. If the Regal 2.4L has 13 more hp and weighs 200 more lbs, I personally would expect to never get less than 24 mpg out of a tank from it, and to easily get the stated 30 on the hwy.
Impressive of the Sonata to beat the Malibu by 2 mpg hwy. Both non turbo 2.4L. I wonder if it had to shed weight to accomplish that. less weight usually = more road noise and more noise in general. Sonata being impressive doesn't make a close second a dog.
Yes, GM could work more on their 4 cyl engines and I'm sure they always are. They are already pretty good. I doubt you could name another 3425 lb midsize 2.4L that puts Malibu's 33 hwy to shame on reg gas.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't GM decide that they were ONLY keeping the Impala for fleet sales? Is it still sold by dealers?
As I've said in the past (maybe why I'm not a marketing expert like GM's marketers
I'm at 97K on an '05 Acura TL. I've replaced normal stuff like tires, brakes (front only), and battery. Other than that:
- a door handle cap fell off and I had to buy a new one
- the exterior temp sensor had to be reprogrammed due to a recall
That is all.
Are you really saying that the road to prosperity in this country is for companies to be LESS efficient with labor?
You actually thought $58B just vanished?
No, but if GM made zero it paid zero corporate income tax. If Totota had the same sales in the US and had a decent profit margin (say, 5%), then they would have paid income tax on $2.9 BILLION in profits. At say, a 20% tax rate (guess), that would be $580 MILLION to Uncle Sam.
Further, since GM vehicles use so much gas, that adds even more tax money to the US coffers. I have to earn almost $5 to net enough money to buy a gallon of gas. In my silverado, that only gets me 15 miles around town. Most of the $5 ends up as tax income for the gov. In a Honda, I might have to drive twice as far to get my gov nearly $5 of tax income due to fuel use.
So following along, we should have LESS efficient companies, and have more WASTEFUL fuel economy? So the US Government should PENALIZE those companies making energy-efficient cars! :P
Further, GM outsells all others, therefore generating more sales tax for states than any other manufacturer, and in states like mine, more excise tax than any other brand is generated by GM.
Number of units is not equal to total sales. So if you factor in sales prices, since Toyota's average sales price is much higher than GM's and they sold nearly as many vehicles, they generated MORE sales tax revenue than GM. :shades:
And then they put a Slob Turbo engine in it?
Better rename the brand CadiLACK and get it over with. I have to say it looks decent but performance got WORSE than the old SRX?
If the problems with acceleration weren’t enough, we had more trouble when we pressed the other pedal in our SRX turbo.
SRX = Slob Response X-Over
I know it's only a rag, but given the price of this wagon, why not buy an MDX?
Regards,
OW
why in the premium segment, the world leaders are frantically trying to REDUCE weight in the engineering formula as fast as possible. That is also why we need strict goals of mandatory high mileage from all manufacturers.
I love rounding a turn and making those Escalades and Excursions look like water buffalos with wheels in my little CR-V. :shades:
It won't be enough for automakers to tip the balance by selling a few electric vehicles and hybrids. In order to keep up with tightening fuel economy requirements, they'll have to reduce curb weight in their volume sellers.
So we're heartened by a report on Autoblog today that suggests Audi will strip about 300 pounds out of the next-generation Audi A4, which is due in about 2015. Today's A4 sedan weighs anywhere from 3,500-3,700 pounds, depending on whether you get all-wheel drive. Although it carries its weight well, there's no denying it's fat for a compact-ish sedan.
The savings, reports AB, won't necessarily come from a big increase in the use of high-strength (high-tensile) steel. As costs come down, Audi will try to incorporate comparatively exotic materials like carbon fiber.
Regards,
OW
I repeat, the business model of all 3 had failure written all over them. Ford is far from out of the woods and GM would be another Edsel save our help.
Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer night have been but then again Buick, GMC and Hummer would not have.
But at the end of the day, Fords stands on it's own feet like the P.I.G.S. and Hungary but GM will never repay all the taxpayer funds until a Chinese company buys them out!
Italian for C, China for GM.
Regards,
OW
No contest...Caddy weeded again by the Asians. I wonder why this tune sounds so familiar? GM hasn't changed much yet. Do they have time before the story remains the same for too long?
Still not buying. Not even looking at anything GM makes...except for the 'Vette. I still feel this is the only time tested model they kept from the great days...even though even this icon is dying! :mad:
Regards,
OW
You know my choice. Which will you plunk your hard-earned, tax-paying money down on?
Another high priced GM head fake or a thirsty over-achieving company that made junk and improved 1,000 per cent?
You choose.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
link title
The lady was OK but the Impala was BACON!
Regards,
OW
I know jayrider can speak for himself, but personally I'm not so wow'ed by the styling of that new Sonata. It may prove to be a fine car overall, but it just doesn't do it for me.
I sat in a Sonata in the auto show, and can't remember much about the experience. I guess that's good or bad, depending on how you look at it. Didn't blow me over, but at the same time, didn't burn a horrible experience into my memory, either!
As for the Impala, I do remember it having a front seat that was roomy and comfortable, for me at least. Okay, so it's not going to give you side bolstering support like a Recaro if you decide to test its slalom time, but I'm sure it would be comfy on long trips.
The Impala, with the 3.9 at least, is also going to be faster than the Sonata. MT clocked a 2011 Sonata at 0-60 in 8.1 seconds, which is pretty good IMO for a ~3100-3200 lb car with a 175 hp 4-cyl. However, I found a test for a 2006 Impala LTZ, 3.9, that managed 7.4 seconds. Of course, it's a bigger, torquier engine (and a bigger, heavier car, too), so I'd expect it to be faster, so no surprise there I guess.
Still, I think they're both decent cars in their own way. Obviously, if the Sonata is outselling the Impala, that shows the market prefers it. But, I can still see some strong points for the Impala.
Regards,
OW