GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited June 2010
    I keep opining Hyundai not because they are Asian but because their products have improved to the point that surpassed GM. Like I said, GM ain't even close to world best let alone 5th place.

    Here is a story of the current turmoil at GM. Hopefully the Hyundai guy can change things but I doubt it.

    2010 GM Failure - The Story Remains the Same

    I'll stop hammering GM when it stops B.S.'ing. That'll be never! :lemon:

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Hyundai certainly is worth keeping an eye on. One of my neighbor's dumped his Cadillac for a new Genesis. Around here, I've been seeing several new Genesis sedans and a few coupes too.

    I've also seen quite a few new Sonata's and to be honest, I don't really care for the styling. It kind of looks like a cross between a Camry and ES350 to me. I like how it looks in print, but so far in person I don't really care for it. Regardless, it is selling well.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    The A3 has been very good to me and quite reliable. Overall, I'd say it's been very reliable, especially considering I flog it regularly and drive to it's full engineered potential all of the time. I don't baby it by any means, it's a fun car to drive, and I extract every ounce of fun from it. I do of course, maintain it well as I have all my previous cars, but this is my first car that has inspired me to take drives down curvy back country canyon roads just for the hell of it. The '03 Accord Coupe V6 as nice as it was, never inspired me to just drive for the fun and the sake of it.

    The A3 is an awesome car, and even though the price has gone up substantially since I got mine (partly due to dollar being worthless) I think it's still a good value in the automotive world. You get a lot of car for the money if you can avoid the expensive overpriced options (even if it is relatively compact in size).

    If you can live with the non-sport package equipped models, then you won't get the sport seats, and you can avoid the extra side bolstering in the front "sport" seats (albeit still different seats than the GTI). The regular ones are better if your carrying extra pounds. I am near the limit for the sport seats at 6'2" tall and nearing 220 lbs, but my driving style makes the extra bolstering a welcome and desired feature, so I prefer the sport seats. Also, the front seats have tremendous track travel from front to back, so even if I was 6'5" tall, the A3 would still fit me nicely, but I wouldn't want to have to sit behind myself. In most cars I end up putting the seat ALL the way back, not so in the A3 with the wide range of positioning.

    I've found the interior space in the A3 to always be adequate, extremely similar to the previous generation A4 Avant but with a slightly shorter cargo area. The outside is smaller, but the inside makes great use of the space available (great design improvement for space utilization).

    They should be redesigned in 2012, but I think Audi is scared to bring the S3 to these shores :cry: . However, there are lots of modifications and tuning available for the A3, and I've started to experiment with that lately now that I'm out of warranty. I waited until 62,000 miles to get a new tire and super lightweight wheel package, and just recently at about 64,000 miles got a software download (chip) to get me up to about 250 HP and 280 lb/ft of torque. Most of this extra power comes from turbo boost being increased, so now when I want to really move, thoughts of KNIGHT RIDER's (or should I say Kit's) turbo boost button use comes to mind while I'm having fun. I feel like I've made something close to the S3 now with these simple mods.

    Anyway, you asked about issues. It has had a few issues though, one due to the quality control guy at the factory floor being blind or absent when mine came through the finish line at the factory.

    First, a plastic trim piece on the interior by the back seat side next to the door was ill-fitting and not snapping properly back into place. If it did snap back in it didnt' stay in position correctly for long (MAYBE, just a guess; that's where they hid the LOJACK my vehicle is equipped with). Anyway, that was the first warranty repair done at the 5,000 mile first free service interval (even though it came that way from the dealer but in my excitement I missed it upon the buyer's inspection).

    Second thing to go wrong was the rear seat arm rest/cup holder mechanism. Truth be told no one had ever used the push/pop out cupholders from the arm rest in the center of the back seat. But I was nearing 50,000 miles and testing everything just before my warranty ran out so I could have it fixed if need be. It didn't pop out and the whole center pass through for the cargo area was replaced under warranty. Oh yeah, the latch on my center arm rest storage bin cover/lid had broken so I had them replace that too at the same time.

    At 53,000 miles the AC compressor blew. I took it in and told them I was disappointed a major system had failed so early and close to warranty. Audi stepped up to the plate like a man and covered the new A/C system under "extended goodwill" warranty at NO COST to me. In fact, I had an A4 loaner for nearly 2 weeks as they had to order parts before they could do the repair. Apparently, from the forums, the AC compressor they used was a poor choice, but I bet they are not using the same one anymore.

    At 61,000 miles or so I had my first "cost" repair. Check Engine light went on, diagnoses was a boost leak or issue from the turbo system. Turns out it was the recirculation valve which cost me 3.5 hours labor for a $115 part. This was at the dealer so it was about $550 to fix. Apparently, the diverter valve and recirculation valve are known to be problematic. I was researching parts and Audi provides a new diverter valve (could very well be my next needed fix of the future) for about $110 too, but I also found out it is new, improved, revised, and more robust than the original OEM part. Luckily, the diverter valve is only 1/2 hour of labor to replace, but I haven't needed it yet.

    Just did a smoke test on my turbo system last week which I observed, and they said it was flawless. They were actually surprised they couldn't find any smoke leaking (not even in the least bit at very high pressures) out of anywhere in the system, including the original intercooler and piping/hoses.

    I'm VERY HAPPY with the A3. Auto manufacturers need to remember it's the little details, the little things that bring happiness and satisfaction to a purchase experience. With the A3, Audi remembered all the little details.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    3.5 and 3.7, seems they get a bit buzzy past 7k rpm.

    I think that is forgiveable. Unless your at a track, you shouldn't be spending more than a few milliseconds past 7K RPM anyway. What's the redline, 7,500? A bit of buzziness isn't what you are paying attention to anyway at that engine speed.

    What isn't forgiveable is the CVT transmission. I hate it. I've driven in a Murano Rental with the 3.5 and CVT, and I can't stand it. I'd never buy a car with CVT unless they can improve it by 1,000%. I'm an Audi fan being an Audi owner, and I hated it in an A4 loaner that had CVT too.

    I think I'm spoiled with transmissions as I don't think I'd like any auto transmission anymore that isn't dual-clutch auto-manual based. I did the Audi Driving Experience program a few years ago and had a chance to drive an R8 with the R-Tronic tranny. It's much better than CVT, but I didn't like it really compared to a dual clutch setup, and that's like a 10,000 dollar transmission in a $100K car.

    I think without even driving it, the new 7 speed dual clutch tranny for the new S4 is the best transmission available today.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Your A3 is similar to my jetta 2.0T. Sedan, not a hacth, other than that, yes it is fun to drive!.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    Is that Jetta 2.0T the EXTRA FUN GLI version?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Nah the "sleeper" Wolfsburg Edition.......still just as fun, alot cheaper!
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Thanks for taking the time to relate your A3 experience. The 2010 has evolved considerably from your 06 so hopefully some of the issues you disclosed will be taken care of. What did you think of the A4 you had on loan ? There are some decent price breaks on the A4 that don't seem to drift down to the A3. There seems to be a lot more inventory so I guess the need to move the iron a bit more.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Edmunds has a long term test on an 09 BMW M3. Replacing a tire was over $400 and depreciation for 19k miles was 20k. Be still my heart !!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Impressive of the Sonata to beat the Malibu by 2 mpg hwy. Both non turbo 2.4L. I wonder if it had to shed weight to accomplish that.

    Actually, Hyundai put direct injection in it, which is responsible for most of the fuel economy (and low-end torque) advantage, and still managed to undercut their competition (Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion, etc) in price.

    Hyundai and Ford seem to me to be the only companies really TRYING to earn new business currently.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Strange. I had in mind that Toyota offered the biggest rebates right now.

    Toyota's current incentives are GIGANTIC by its own standards, but merely average by industry standards.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I've also seen quite a few new Sonata's and to be honest, I don't really care for the styling. It kind of looks like a cross between a Camry and ES350 to me

    I've been trying to pin down exactly what the new Sonata looks like, and you captured it perfectly! And I agree, in person it's maybe a 3 on a scale of 10. Looks is definitely one area where the new Buicks have Hyundai beaten quite handily.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    What did you think of the A4 you had on loan ? There are some decent price breaks on the A4 that don't seem to drift down to the A3. There seems to be a lot more inventory so I guess the need to move the iron a bit more.

    Jumping in here-- I had a '98 A4 with the six cylinder engine. I loved that car - it had luxury, drove fabulously, and really felt special. But when it had problems out of warranty there was a lot that only the dealer could fix -- and they had to guess sometimes, sometimes guessing wrong --- to the tune of $500-$1000 per visit. I finally dumped it over fear of future costs.

    So now I have an Acura TL which hasn't given me a lick of trouble in 97K miles, and guess what? I miss the Audi! You always want what you don't have.

    Bringing this to GM - that's why they've never appealed to me. I like premium sedans that are smaller. GM has never had anything in the neighborhood of a TSX/A4/BMW 3/S60/Jetta. Nothing of refinement or quality in a smaller vehicle. Perhaps someday. A big market segment, ignored by GM. Ten divisions (which were all supposedly necessary), but a completely empty niche. Such strategists!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Bringing this to GM - that's why they've never appealed to me. I like premium sedans that are smaller. GM has never had anything in the neighborhood of a TSX/A4/BMW 3/S60/Jetta. Nothing of refinement or quality in a smaller vehicle. Perhaps someday. A big market segment, ignored by GM. Ten divisions (which were all supposedly necessary), but a completely empty niche. Such strategists!

    I agree and that's probably the biggest reason GM doesn't appeal to me. Maybe the new Regal will be a step in that direction.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I agree even though I think Buicks newsest cars are blatant knockoffs and spinoffs of the Lexus ES. They do look good both inside and out. The original designs like the Lacrosse and Lucerne (or what was original, if you ignore the Mercedes headlights on the Lacrosse or the Passat tail on the Lucy) were dull and boring by comparison.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I believe Governent motors is attempting to address this with premium car built off of the upcoming Cruze.

    Cimarron 2.0? :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I believe Governent motors is attempting to address this with premium car built off of the upcoming Cruze.

    They had the Caddy BTX in Europe but it fizzled and went nowhere. Apparently not a credible offering.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think you can throw in a little Mazdz 6 on that Sonata as well. I think I like the Mazda a bit more than the Sonata. While they both look decent, I guess I'm not a huge fan of that wedgie look though.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    edited June 2010
    I think the new A4 is an incredible upgrade from the older A4, however, I haven't driving the newly redesigned one from 2009 on. My loaner was an '08 model I believe. I like the old A4, but I'm a much bigger fan of the newer one without even having driven it. I've read a lot of good things about it though.

    I have had a chance to drive the S5 which I believe has the same platform as the new A4. I'll take one for Christmas anytime.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    Hyundai and Ford seem to me to be the only companies really TRYING to earn new business currently.

    I think you can throw in Audi/VW into that mix with the great new TDI drivetrains and vehicles (if only diesel didn't cost as much as Premium!) :mad:

    Keyword there is EARN. You said they are earning new business. Hence, not stealing it like the 2 bail out companies called GM and Chrysler.

    Those companies steal business away from legitimate business enterprises by stealing tax payer money and then selling cars at a discount leveraged with their own customers own money! All those rebates come directly from the US Treasury!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    But when it had problems out of warranty there was a lot that only the dealer could fix -- and they had to guess sometimes, sometimes guessing wrong --- to the tune of $500-$1000 per visit. I finally dumped it over fear of future costs.

    If you could graph Audi's reliability in general as a whole company I think since 2000 they have been on a 45 degree slope upward, which is a great thing. Unfortunately, I think VW's graph would be more like 5 degrees upward, but they both could keep on improving to their own benefit.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    > Those companies steal business away from legitimate business enterprises by stealing tax payer money and then selling cars at a discount leveraged with their own customers own money! All those rebates come directly from the US Treasury!

    Man, you hit the nail right on the head. So true.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    If you could graph Audi's reliability in general as a whole company I think since 2000 they have been on a 45 degree slope upward, which is a great thing. Unfortunately, I think VW's graph would be more like 5 degrees upward, but they both could keep on improving to their own benefit.

    Honestly I've had both VW's and Audi's and neither were that unreliable. It was more that when there WAS a problem, it was a) tough to get the dealer to correctly diagnose things; and b) VERY expensive. The Audi was quite a bit better than the VW, however.

    Comparatively I've literally spent about $50 on unexpected maintenance on an Acura TL over 97K miles. That's really nice; it's just that the car drives like a sportier Asian car rather than like a German car. :cry:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    Comparatively I've literally spent about $50 on unexpected maintenance on an Acura TL over 97K miles. That's really nice; it's just that the car drives like a sportier Asian car rather than like a German car.

    Haha, I spent exactly $0.00 in unexpected maintenance/repair on my '03 Honda Accord LX V6 Coupe with the wonderfully powerful 3.0 V6. I kept it for only 65,000 miles though, but still, zero is zero.

    You might wanna try some ultra light weight wheels on your TL, with maybe a slightly larger rim/tire so that you can get a bit more contact patch width to the road. I was surprised and almost downright shocked by how much of a difference 10lbs. of unsprung weightloss per corner does to a vehicle's driveability and handling.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ben66ben66 Member Posts: 243
    Folks, try sing this classic song by Eagles aloud while remembering what toyota had done :

    " Desperado, why don't you come to your senses (have they ?)
    You've been out ridin' fences,

    for so long - now. (yea, since years way back their cover-ups)

    Ohh you're a hard one. (oh yea, hard, cunning, callous, dishonest too !)

    I know that you've got your reasons. (Damn right, to make billions now, then trillions in the future !)

    These things that are pleasin'you (Seeing the cash pile stack ever higher)

    Can hurt you somehow. (you can say that again man !!!)

    Warren Buffett said something which we all should learn from : " We prefer AVOIDING DRAGONS rather than slaying them ".


    Very smart ! Life is hard enough, why make it harder ? Why make it RISKIER ? Thats why he is so successful. Oh yes, he said one more thing : " The secret of getting really rich is AVOIDING RISKS ". Quite the opposite of the traditional " High risk, high return " advise given by average fund managers.


    Thats why he very seldom screwed himself over the past decades. Lower risk, higher return, AND LONGER LIFE ! Thumbs up Buffett !


    And thats also why he, one of the smartest and richest guy in the USA (and the world), DID NOT BUY A TOYOTA !!!


    Find out for yourself what HE DRIVES....Any takers ? Here's a clue, he buys and drives an AMERICAN CAR !!!

    Whoever first finds out the correct model that he drives, pls send me yr account number and I will give you 100 dollars. How's that ?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited June 2010
    IIRC, Mr. Buffet bought a Cadillac DTS a few years ago (I'd say 2006 or 07 as a guess). His first new car in nearly 20 years I believe. I think he had a Town Car before that. I won't take your money if I'm right. It was all over the likes of CNBC a few years ago about Buffet buying a Cadillac.

    Not that it means much. Buffet still lives in a home he bought 40+ years ago. He's definitely not a "car" guy. I'm sure he rides in a limo or private jet far more than he drives around in his personal vehicles.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited June 2010
    link title

    General Motors is recalling about 1.5 million vehicles worldwide for a problem with a heated windshield wiper fluid system that could lead to a fire. The recall affects a number of 2006- to 2009-model pickups, SUVs and cars sold under the Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Hummer and Saturn brands. GM conducted a similar recall in 2008 but has had new reports of fires in vehicles that were supposedly fixed.

    image
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited June 2010
    What's Lemko going to do with his $100?

    Odd that they are just going to disable the heater. I hope that's not a trend to just remove things that don't work as designed. I remember GM showing the heated windshield washer fluid in some commercials ago on the Lucerne I believe. So I guess the heated washer fluid is no longer a selling feature.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, the last I heard, he had a 1997 Lincoln Town Car. My info is probably out of date. I recall Ross Perot drove an early 1980s Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited June 2010
    Notice the operative word is "could" cause a fire. Heck, I "could" get hit by a meteorite or I "could" win the Powerball lottery, but it's not likely. When they say "will" cause a fire, I'll worry about it.

    Anyway, I had it fixed a long time ago. I don't use it anyway, though it is a pretty cool device. I tried it when I first got the car. While others are in the cold scraping their windshields, I zap mine with the heated fluid and am on my way!

    I didn't drive the car much this past winter. It was insane! I had to remove three feet of snow from the driveway and in blocks roughly 1 foot square as it was hardened. Heck, I didn't even have place to put the snow and had a mountain ten feet high in my yard. Hope we don't have a nasty winter like that last one again!
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    That $100 could pay for 4 oil changes on my my Jeep Liberty. Which we love.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Notice the operative word is "could" cause a fire. Heck, I "could" get hit by a meteorite or I "could" win the Powerball lottery, but it's not likely. When they say "will" cause a fire, I'll worry about it.

    They are being recalled because it HAS caused fires and some of the previously repaired cars that were recalled have caused fires too. I wouldn't assume yours was fixed properly.
  • tbone_raretbone_rare Member Posts: 96
    edited June 2010
    To my knowledge GM has not tried to cover up this issue. They haven't lied before Congress about this issue.....and no one has died as a result of this issue. I'm sure that none of that really matters to those of you who are die hard, anti-GM people. Ford just had a recall. Chrysler just had a recall. Every car manufacturer has recalls. It's the cover up that was the difference for Toyota. IMO they still haven't been forthcoming about their issues.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited June 2010
    To my knowledge GM has not tried to cover up this issue. They haven't lied before Congress about this issue.....and no one has died as a result of this issue.

    I never made that claim. I was just responding to Lemko. If the washier fluid heater didn't have a higher chance of catching fire than normal, GM wouldn't be recalling 1.5 million vehicles over it. I guess they are taking the cheap way out as they are basically making it inoperable instead of providing a fix, but whatever. I got used to thing not working as they should in my GM vehicles, so taking away the heater probably won't be a big deal and they are throwing 100 bones to the owners to compensate for it.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Using a premium windshield washer fluid that won't freeze makes the heater option a non issue for me.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Using a premium windshield washer fluid that won't freeze makes the heater option a non issue for me.

    True, I've never said to myself in the morning "I wish I had heated washer fluid".

    Though, once I did have an oil change place put non-antifreeze washer fluid in my car in the middle of winter and the whole reservoir froze solid. Man was I pissed!
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    edited June 2010
    Had the same issue with a pickup truck -- had the oil changed in march and october which included the washer fluid. Driving to Branson in December everything was frozen. Stopped at a gas station and let the engine heat up the fluid enough to pump it all out and replace with new fluid. It didn't take much to get me to go ballistic back then and I threw a temper tantrum. Now that I'm medicated ;) things not get to me near as much. Better living through chemistry. :shades:
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Those companies steal business away from legitimate business enterprises by stealing tax payer money and then selling cars at a discount leveraged with their own customers own money! All those rebates come directly from the US Treasury!

    If the GM vehicle is discounted due to bailout money, then buying a GM is a means of recovering my share of the taxpayer funded bailout? Not buying one means I don't recover my money?

    Not as bad for all us taxpayers as buying a house and getting $8000 back on your tax return.

    Everyone financing or refinancing their houses for anything less than 6% is getting bailout money paid for by taxpayers. I joined in on that give-away also. The US money supply has already doubled under the current administaration. All the foreclosure prevention programs are bailouts.

    Free lunch at school is very widespread these days. I recently read about a school that only had 4 students not getting free or assisted lunch.

    What about the 10-20% delinquency rate on credit of some form throughout the country? Who is paying for that?

    After we subract out those who are not getting help from the gov in some part of their living expenses, who are we left with?

    Once again, the hundreds of millions given to Honda to build a factory in Indiana.

    The only ones paying their fair share of taxes and not benefitting from any gov help is a short list these days. I doubt it has much crossover with the list of Ford and foreign car owners. Even Ford borrowed billions to prepare for the recession. Is the interest rate they are paying less than what it should be because banks get their money to loan at a discount from the taxpayer? I think it is.

    I wonder if the oil spill is payback for the senators from Al, Ga, Miss, and SC being against the bailouts to save GM jobs? Maybe all the ex-fishermen can get jobs at Hundai?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    You make some good points about GM and Chrysler not being the only bailed out and subsidized business entities. However, I'm against every single bailout for every single corporation that benefits from it.

    Also, Ford got their loans fair and square. Just like credit card companies loaned out money to people they knew would have a 10 to 20% delinquency rate. No one had a gun to their heads. Who will pay for the delingquency rate, well, a prudent credit company would have that already built into their loan costs as it's entirely predictable costs of being in the loan business.

    The people of Indiana are benefitting from Honda being there. The majority of people in the USA were against the auto maker bailouts because the vast majority of the population receives NO benefit from it. In fact, they receive negative consequences due to it.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • js06gvjs06gv Member Posts: 460
    Interesting that the photo shown is of the prior (2000 - 2006) generation of full-size SUVs, as the heated washer fluid wasn't even available on these. Guess this particular fire was caused by something else.

    2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yikes! That looks very close to my garage. The only saving grace for me is mine is 2003 and the worst so far is all the parts fail! Hmmm...perhaps I can get a new crib if the Yukon burns the house down? :lemon:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Well, my CR-V was happy in the tons of snow. Don't you have a snow blower? Best investment I made.

    By the way, it's an Ariens. U.S. Built. So far, the quality and dependability blows away anything GM makes. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited June 2010
    Agreed. Toyota failed and is paying for it.

    But 2 wrongs don't make a right. GM fails in many, many ways. Take a look at their current state of marketing operations. Hardly something to cheer about.

    Listen, I used to love GM. Then they failed me. If not you, then congratulations!

    Just remember, history doesn't change no mater how much you might not like it. That goes double for Toyota. I wouldn't shop them either. Same boat as GM AFAIC. :lemon:

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Excellent! You seem to work your way around all of GM's shortcomings. Nothing like decontenting. That is what GM excells at lately. Now all they have to do is decontent all the junk parts and they'll achieve 100% quality! 4 tires and we're off! :D

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    HMM, GM and C do it so everyone else should?

    Or, put another way, it's OK for GM since free rides are abundant?

    Oh well. I guess it was ok for GM to fail then. Be forewarned that they have a good chance of repeating.

    Regards,
    OW
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I don't know, seems to me that all of the car makers are going to chintzier and China made crap. In fact, all this China crap goods everywhere craps out earlier and is a hidden inflation element not captured by the CPI (if it costs 20% less, but lasts half as long then it actually costs more over its life cycle). GM may have a bit steeper ladder, but I'm thinking most products are just getting closer and more similar to each other. I'm not all that impressed with the latest Honda or Toyota vehicles either and think Ford and GM are catching up, albeit GM is a bit further behind. I'll bet they are all pretty much the same well before the decade is out.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    edited June 2010
    My post had nothing to do with GM's shortcomings -- never even heard of heated fluid except on MB. Why would anyone need such a thing. If I had paid for it I'd feel differently but it would hardly be a reason for a major incident. Heated seats are different..You seriously need to shift out of attack mode. You should read my latest post on the stories from the sales frontline.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I seriously think GM needs to shift out of BS mode and just make great products. Perhaps they will but not right now. Remember, the jury is out on the repayment. I have a link to their corporate site and still get sick at the BS!

    The fact is they are disconnected from customer needs and desires. They have a few nice tries so far but looking at their sales, the reality is quite different then they pitch.

    I'll stop attacking wen the money is repaid and their products are number one. Not until then.

    Forget about even considering visiting a GM dealer!

    Seriously.

    Regards,
    OW
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Se la vie.

    It's C'est la vie, IIRC
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