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Like other manufacturers, GM is often reluctant to publicly admit problems. Instead, it describes such things as banging engines in brand-new trucks as "perfectly normal," while secretly buying back vehicles from consumers who are assertive to retain a lawyer. It's been playing this little game lately with its full-sized pickups and SUVs.
link">http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/general_motors.htmGM">
Looks like the Cobalt, which your Cavalier evolved from, is plagued like the Toyota pick-ups!
General Motors said it would recall 1.3 million small Chevrolet and Pontiac models sold in North America because of a power steering problem. The defect has been linked to more than a dozen accidents so far.
The carmaker is recalling the Chevy Cobalt, along with Pontiac 4, G5, and Pursuit models.
Read more: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/03/gm_steering_recall.html#ixzz0qjQk9- - - HUR
Before you use that Site, you need to back a company that BEATS Toyota reliability not one 6 tiers below most of Toyota's products.
Toyota has gone into the penalty box afaic and I have referred t the fact that Toyota now has GM disease. Praising GM quality over Toyota, however, is not appropriate at this time.
I am so happy you like GM products and they served you well. Most folks in the market have gone elsewhere by now.
Regards,
OW
DETROIT — General Motors Co. rode expense cuts from its bankruptcy and strong sales of redesigned models to its first quarterly net income in nearly three years, drawing the company closer to a stock offering that would repay at least part of its government aid.
The Detroit automaker said it made money because debt and other expenses were slashed by its stay in bankruptcy court last year
GM remains in intensive are BECAUSE the market share has tanked and they are not "right siced for their level of sales....bailout notwithstanding.
Chief Financial Officer Chris Liddell said it may be difficult to sustain the same level of profit for the remainder of the year because first-quarter production is usually higher than other quarters, with automakers ramping up for the spring selling season.
“I'd still be reasonably cautious about the rest of the year,” he said.
CEO Ed Whitacre has predicted a full-year profit as U.S. auto sales continue their slow recovery.
Might as well dump Whitacre now have Bernie Madoff run GM through the IPO. :lemon:
Garbage Motors
GM would have disappeared late in 2008 or early last year without help from the government. It cut 10,000 workers last quarter and now employs 205,000 people across the globe, including 77,000 in the U.S.
That employment number proves the bailout was such a scam based on the severe backlash the propaganda touted last year. The current administration instituted change, alright...the problem is it is in the same direction as GM's market share vapor trail.
Regards,
OW
I think reliability-wise, by 2000, the Cavalier was okay. But, like you say, there's a lot more to a car's desireability than how reliable it is. My last experience riding in a Cav wasn't a pleasant one, but to be fair, I prefer bigger, roomier cars, so I cut the Cav some slack for feeling cramped. However, my uncle's 2003 Corolla is small, and I find it fairly comfortable in the passenger seat, and the back seat. It's just the driver's position I hate! I mainly remember that 2000 era Cavalier being plasticky, and just poorly assembled with uneven gaps and such. And they're not all the economical for that class of car, but they were pretty quick. Consumer Reports got 0-60 in 8.4 seconds out of one of the pre-Ecotech, non Z-24 models. That's no big shakes today, but many comparable cars were struggling to break 10 seconds at that time.
I had some friends back in college that had Cavaliers. One was an '85 sedan and one was an '89 Z-24. I think the sedan made it to around 110,000 miles and then one morning just wouldn't start due to electrical problems. By that time the car was basically worthless anyway, so my friend just got rid of it. The Z-24 made it to around 90,000 miles, when it blew a head gasket. That one got traded for a Honda Civic.
I think that head gasket issue was a common problem with those 2.8 V-6es. I had another friend who had an '87 Z-24 that blew a head gasket. His father was a metro bus mechanic, and was able to fix it. I lost touch with him not too long after that though, and don't know how long that car ended up lasting.
While they weren't as reliable as the newer ones, I think those older first-gen Cavaliers could be pretty nice, when equipped the right way. My friend's '89 Z-24 had a really nice interior...fairly supportive seats, cloth and carpet on the door panels rather than stark plastic slabs, and plastic that didn't look so cheap.
yes, the new gasoline TDI engines are quite nifty aren't they.
and yes, circlew, some folks swap out the GM suspensions for Pedders immediately after taking delivery. Jay Leno did that with his new camaro.
Some things never change. Those in the know have been doing this for years on GM products. Stock performance? Not on GM, you don't!
Regards,
OW
So, I grew up driving only domestics and fully believing they were better than comparable asian cars. Well, that was until I got a chance to drive some Japanese cars. The first was in '87. I was with my grandpa in his '87 Caprice Classic and we were visiting one of his old "mill" buddies. This guy was bragging about how much he loved his '87 Maxima. Well he let me drive it. Wow, I was blown away by how smooth and responsive it was ( I didn't care for the styling so much), but everything felt refined and fluid. My grandpa's Caprice Classic Brougham LS felt like a truck in comparison. I was just blown away by how smooth and powerful the Nissan 3.0 v6. It was silky smooth compared to any domestic v6 I'd ever sampled and seemed smoother and much more eager to rev than the 305v8 I drove minutes before. So at that time, my eye's were opened that the Japanese were on to something that appealed to me.
Then I got to sample some Honda's. A friend of mine's parent's bought an '87 or '88 Accord LX-i. Double wow, speed sensitive steering and a 4cyl that didn't buzz when revved. I had an '86 Ford Escort and at the time my dad had a '85 Ford Tempo. The Accord was in another universe compared to those vehicles. The Accord handled great and I couldn't believe how smooth and quiet Honda's 4cyl was compared to the meat grinder sounding 4cylinders from Ford and GM me and my friend's had to suffer through. But the car that really won me over was when my uncle bought my aunt an '87 Honda CRX SI. A 4cyl car that was quick and a blast to drive. That little honda 4cyl just begged to be flogged.
I had a friend who's parents had some money and he always had neat cars. A Toyota MR2 and then a Honda Prelude SI with 4wheel steering when we were both in college. Those were all cars that pretty much blew away anything comparable from the domestics. Granted their weren't any refined 4cyl cars from the domestics back then and that is where IMO the Japanese makes were killing the domestics.
Personally I've still mainly bought domestics, I've owned two foreign vehicles. A '00 VW Jetta TDI and an '01 Nissan Pathfinder LE. Both were great vehicles. I still mainly buy domestics, not because I think they are the best available, but because I'd still rather buy a domestic if it can meet my needs and I can get it cheap enough. Since I drive SUVs, a GM or Ford makes sense. If I had to buy a car, it would be very hard for me to choose one.
As for GM, I've simply never owned or had access to one I would either want to own again or would buy with my own money. My wife has had some GM cars that were/are reliable, but 100% underwhelming in other areas.
It cost the gov $26 billion to do the census. That boils down to $350 to count the people in my house. The Indianapolis Star can produce and deliver to me the Thurs and Sunday papers for $50 every 6 mos. That means they can bring me a paper twice a week for 3.5 years for what the gov spent counting the people in my house ONE TIME. At the gov handling 60% of the econimy, and with their incredible inefficiency, we are already well on the way to disaster. How could GM bailout even matter?
Next stop for the runaway train? Cap and Trade.
It cost the gov $26 billion to do the census. That boils down to $350 to count the people in my house. The Indianapolis Star can produce and deliver to me the Thurs and Sunday papers for $50 every 6 mos. That means they can bring me a paper twice a week for 3.5 years for what the gov spent counting the people in my house ONE TIME. At the gov handling 60% of the econimy, and with their incredible inefficiency, we are already well on the way to disaster. How could GM bailout even matter?
Next stop for the runaway train? Cap and Trade.
Yeah, that bothers the hell out of me.
Absolutely.
At the gov handling 60% of the econimy, and with their incredible inefficiency, we are already well on the way to disaster. How could GM bailout even matter?
It ALL matters. Still does not make the GM bailout a good idea.
Yup.
Free Market.
There should be no "special treatment" for a company that put itself in its own shoes. GM has been a disaster for decades, it's not some damn charity that we the taxpayers are obligated to. :mad:
I think it's not worth debating this one with you publically but a private conversation about it might be interesting.
For now, just know that there are plenty of knowledgeable folks who disagree with your intentionally oversimplified and factually incorrect statements re current "UA" issues of various manufacturers.
Obviously when this country was formed the government wasn't entangled in every aspect of our lives as it is today. Or a government that was trying to figure out how to tax every part of your life. So there is the possibility that we can get back to a small government that leaves us alone. Taking my tax money to give it to overpaid employees and retirees of a failed system, is not something I'm working for. In fact if anything the increases in direct and indirect taxes, government mandating that I have to buy health insurance and such ... is leading me to the conclusion that it might be better to stop working, become income-poor and ask for the handouts that the future generations will pay for either thru high taxes, or reduced lifestyle.
All GM and any bank that has not repaid their bailouts from the government can be proud of is that they survived by robbing from the future generations. Like a parent taking from their kid's piggybank - to go buy themselves a pizza and beer tonight.
I can't wait for the day when they're not too big to fail, and the HN car company replaces GM.
Then I'll change my viewpoint regarding UA.
Even pulling the shiter into the lowest gear would prevent going over 45. Could stay in traffic safely.
Regards,
OW
Then I'll change my viewpoint regarding UA.
To be fair -- if I were in an UA situation I would know instinctively to shift into neutral. I once had a totally unexpected skid in a turn in the rain and I instinctively turned out of the skid. I had no time to think. I was pleased that my automatic reaction was the correct one.
HOWEVER, I've also realized (mainly through my wife, lol) that MANY people don't have that instinctive understanding of things. My wife looks at an electronic device and she does NOT know how to use it. Computers are very difficult for her. Cell phones are difficult for her. VCRs were very difficult for her. She learns what to do by procedural memorization, NOT by instinct. Sort of how I don't automatically know what color pants go with a certain shirt. It is just not my talent.
So if some people get into UA, they will NOT know the automatic and correct response. Unlike me or you. And we need to appreciate that there are a lot of people out there where this would be the case.
I appreciate that not everyone is as instinctual or as naturally talented as everyone else when it comes to certain things, but what to do during UA can and should (AND HAS) been taught, procedurally as you say.
But I refuse to believe that I'm the only one out here that got a "decent" driver's training education in High School. I learned about what to do in that training regarding a stuck accelerator/UA.
Also, our Driver's License tests should be beefed up to TEST that someone learned this part of the instruction prior to being allowed to drive. The driver's license test in CA was far too easy. People routinely get 97 or 100% on it.
I agree!!!! However, if it doesn't occur to someone to shift to neutral, then why would it occur to them to shift down? Also, they'd have to do so before the car accelerated out of the RPM range for that gear.
There's pedal misapplication (driver error)
There's floor mats getting stuck (driver prep/inspection error)
There's sticky pedals (driver maintenance error; I've read they don't get sticky overnight and it's a gradually worsening problem that develops over time)
What else could cause a vehicle to experience UA?
Most states, though, don't require driver's training if you get your license at 18 or older. You just pass the test and you're done. This is a lot like the motorcycle test. Most states offer a rider's course or training program(or have companies that do for a fee), but it's unfortunately not required. And the vast majority of injuries are from people who never took the course and then get a 100HP+ sport bike right after obtaining their license.
Actually, that might not work. Some transmissions are "smart" enough to keep you from engaging too low of a gear at too high of a speed. It's a safeguard to keep you from over-revving the engine or damaging the transmission. You can put the shifter into the lower gear, but the transmission won't engage.
Even my '57 DeSoto has those safeguards built in. I think the first gear lockout is around 50-55 mph and second gear lockout is around 70-75 mph. And if you accidentally hit reverse at any speed over something like 11 mph, it goes into neutral (although I'd think even 10-11 mph wouldn't exactly be good for the transmission!)
In any event, there needs to be a kill switch added for those that need a simple fail sfae in case this keeps occurring. One hit and it's cut off for sure.
Regards,
OW
You can move the shift lever all you want, and since there is no direct mechanical connection to the transmission; well that may do as much as moving your computer mouse when one of your programs locks up!
In an electronic failure, all electronic controls in that communication-circuit may be compromised. The way to stop a vehicle with UA is to stop the fuel-flow or to stop the spark igniting said fuel. There is no known way for an engine to keep running if you stop the fuel. GM or Toyotas stop when the fuel stops! :P
In any event, a kill switch that cuts of the ENERGY to the CPU and everything dies. No fuel pump no computer no UA.
Simple.
Regards,
OW
BTW, if you notice, there have been zero UA claims for manual transmission vehicles. #1 would be that the transmission isn't computer controlled, and #2 is that the clutch overrides everything anyways.(two redundant ways to force it into neutral). Technically with my 4x4, there is a third option, which is to engage the transfer case halfway and not let it lock/leave it out of gear). Because it's 100% mechanical, it's a last-ditch disconnect for the drive shaft.
Of course, another explanation for no UA claims with manual transmissions is that shifting gears requires a more "intimate" relationship with the vehicle, and I would think that most drivers of manual transmissions would instinctively depress the clutch pedal in a UA event.
I'm interested to see if we start seeing some UA claims in the cars that have dual clutch transmissions (DSG) with no actual clutch pedal to depress as they become more widespread.
I suppose it's possible since my DSG controls consist of a manual shift lever which takes me from 1 to 6 and 6 to 1, but no neutral. The shift paddles on the steering wheel work the same way. The only way to get into neutral or reverse is to do it just like all automatic transmissions do.
In 65,000 miles, I have yet to experience UA using DSG.
This fed gov now has $109 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. I would wager that GM at it's worst, was ten times more efficient than the gov that took it over or bailed it out or bought it. It is now probably 15 times more efficient than the gov. I bet GM could count the people in my house for less than $20.
It seems a waste to focus on a tiny piece of the overall waste of the gov. when that part may be the least wasteful part of the tremendously wasteful gov.
I would rather that tens of thousands of GM employees retain their jobs as they are 15 time more productive than any of millions of gov workers. After all, most GM workers have to give back between a third and half of everything they make to the wasteful gov. Just like all of us.
If you want to work on a problem, don't start at the fringe. So you want to show the world you prefer a Hundai over a Chevy. To emphasize this, you want GM to lay off employees and close factories? What is the actual cost to any of us for saving GM and how is the inefficient part of that cost in comparison to all the inefficiency we all support through taxes we pay? A tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction. What is the savings to the taxpayer if an ex-GM worker is now a census worker or an IRS employee that will administer the Health care penalty? Is it even as good as just paying 79 weeks of unemployment? How does the GM bailout compare to a decade worth of our trade defecit with China? One part to ten thousand parts?
Free market yes. But country first.
No doubt. Buf if they did that, the pencils would keep breaking and the paper would be very thin and tear easily. So it would cost the $20 to count the people, but another $150 to put the sign on the front lawn, hire the dancers, and sing a little jingle about motherhood and apple pie! GM makes the best census takers in the world! :P
1) If someone is addicted to alcohol, there is not going to be a solution if you say - go ahead and just have 1 more drink, each time the addict wants a drink. Your way of thinking is the problem is the total-drinking, not the individual drinks. How is the total-drinking problem solved, if you okay the individual drinks?
2) Same would go for someone who's a "shopaholic"
3) Same goes for the government and its handouts.
We're in agreement here that the government is out-of-control. Our difference is 1) that I want the government to draw a line-in-the-sand and say "no more (at least new spending or programs)"; and 2) that I hate the cycle of justification for spending - the justification that XYZ got a sweetheart deal last year, so its only fair GM gets a deal this year.
No. We should demand "no more new spending". Zero, zilch, Nada. No clauses in that the government can spend in case of some vague "emergency".
So you want to show the world you prefer a Hundai over a Chevy.
That's a false argument used by pro-GM people, to use patriotism and define foreign vs. domestic as the only option. I have never heard anyone clearly refute why GM's operations and facilities couldn't have been bought by other U.S. companies or other U.S. auto manufacturers. GM was worth a few billion when they went bankrupt. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or numerous U.S. companies could have bought the whole thing. Or GM could have been soldoff piece-meal at auction. For example the Corvette plant might have been bought by Penske. Caterpillar could have bought and run the truck plants. Nothing needed to be shutdown for long.
If McDonald's is doing badly and goes bankrupt, there's no reason 7-11 couldn't invest their $ and buy them and reopen some of the places, or Wendy's or Burger King couldn't buy up some of the places. There really would be no net loss.
Companies of all sorts have come and gone! Go back some decades and see what companies were around, and have disappeared. The world will not end if GM, Exxon-Mobil, IBM, Microsoft, ... disappears!
SANTA MONICA, Calif. — June 18, 2010 — Today at 11AM Eastern Daylight Time, Edmunds’ GreenCarAdvisor.com will provide access to a free live chat about the government program that will provide free home charging stations to early buyers of new electric vehicle including the Chevy Volt, Ford Transit Connect, Nissan Leaf and Smart Fortwo.
The chat can be accessed at http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/06/got-questions-about-free-ev-cha- rger-program-get-answers-here.html.
General Motors is the sponsor of the chat, which will feature representatives of charger providers Coulomb Technologies and ECOtality. Coulomb was named a co-recipient of Edmunds.com’s Green Car Breakthrough Award earlier this year.
“The grants for home chargers are worth up to $2,000 per household each and in some cases the program will also help cover the cost of installation,” reported GreenCarAdvisor.com Senior Editor John O’Dell in his story at http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/06/federal-grant-for-free-home-ev-- chargers-expanded-by-30-million.html. “In announcing the program yesterday, the Energy Department said that half the money would come from taxpayer funds and half from private contributions.”
I have a plant, I'll make more cars/trucks..............ya think the suppliers would be lining up to make parts for my vehicles??
That's a false argument used by pro-GM people, to use patriotism and define foreign vs. domestic as the only option. I have never heard anyone clearly refute why GM's operations and facilities couldn't have been bought by other U.S. companies or other U.S. auto manufacturers. GM was worth a few billion when they went bankrupt. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or numerous U.S. companies could have bought the whole thing. Or GM could have been soldoff piece-meal at auction. For example the Corvette plant might have been bought by Penske. Caterpillar could have bought and run the truck plants. Nothing needed to be shutdown for long.
I agree.
Especially, when one sees just how much production the Big-3 have exported to other countries over the last 20-30 years.
The whole "buy American, not foreign" thing is nothing more than a red-herring issue.
Exactly how does it benefit America if I buy a Korean built Chevrolet Aveo over a Mississippi built Nissan Altima? How many US workers were employed and paid taxes to the US government at the Aveo plant in Korea .vs. the Nissan plant in Mississippi?
If Nissan declares bankruptcy, should the US government bail them out to save the plant/jobs, as was done with GM? If not, why?
You can’t hide from quality problems. Witness the results of the Initial Quality Study released today by J.D. Power. Toyota’s sudden-acceleration crisis—which forced the once-heralded carmaker to recall more than 8 million vehicles over the past year—resulted in its worst-ever performance in the survey. Toyota dropped from sixth place last year to 21st. Consumers complained in the survey about brake and floormat problems, which is what the recalls were mostly about. Last year, Toyota brand vehicles had 101 problems per 100 vehicles. This year, it rose to 117. No big surprise given the massive number of cars recalled.
What was more surprising is how poorly General Motors did. Cadillac tumbled from third place with 91 problems to a tie for 12th place with 111 problems. Chevrolet went from ninth to 12th, falling below the industry average. GMC went from 18th to 25th. Of GM’s four brands, only Buick improved. The survey tracks complaints during the first 90 days that a consumer owned the car. The problems can be anything from a mechanical breakdown to, say, too much wind noise to mundane things like the driver griping about the size of the cupholders.
What’s worrisome for GM is that the culprit happens to be the company’s newest models :lemon:
GM Disappoints
GM disappoints the loyal few...not to worry!
May the best car win!
Regards,
OW
http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2010/06/us_carmakers_top_quality_ranki.html-
yes if you are Ford, no if you are GM or C!
Those who pay the most for "payoff or advertisement" will win, but it has nothing to do with reliability or dependability, for that, you have to go to CR.
If one company makes ten times as many vehicles as another, and that company goes from 114 problems to 111, and the other company making 10% as many vehicles, goes from 112 to 110 problems, which company eliminated more problems?
Answer: for every 2 problems the higher rated company improved by, the larger (lower rated) manufacturer eliminated 300 problems.
The article is careful not to give the actual current and previous Chev scores because the writer has an agenda. Toyota tumbles 15 positions, but GM's performance drop is considered more suprising?????? Do you believe this BS?
Actually, there is a valid reason for Toyotas decline...The number of recalls related to UA claims. There's no question that it would impact Toyota's scoring.
As far as I know, GM had no such equivalent action or event. So... why did GM's score drop? With all the improved quality claims made by GM, wouldn't it be reasonable for one to be a bit more surprised at GM than at Toyota?
That isn't my claim, but one stated in numeroue places. Extensive floor mat recalls, accelerator pedal recalls, etc. Millions of them. From the link below...
Consumers complained in the survey about brake and floormat problems, which is what the recalls were mostly about. Last year, Toyota brand vehicles had 101 problems per 100 vehicles. This year, it rose to 117. No big surprise given the massive number of cars recalled.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2010/06/jd_powers_quality_su- - - rvey_toyota_tumbles_gm_disappoints.html
Remember, practically ANYTHING (cup holders, etc.) qualify as a "problem"...From the link...The problems can be anything from a mechanical breakdown to, say, too much wind noise to mundane things like the driver griping about the size of the cupholders.
Also, So they are still making UA cars after the problem is discovered? Do you have any data to support your claim?
So far, no one has substantiated ANY UA cars being made, before or after the recall. Related issues (as I mentioned above) have been remedied for floor mats and sticky accelerator pedals, at least, as far as I know.
You would EXPECT Toyota to drop 15 positions because of their quality issues. GM continuing drop is NOT surprising. We're used to GM underachieving same old, same old. Whoever does not think Toyota had better overall quality than GM up to the UA issues, you live in a dream-like state with GM balloons floating in the aura!
But, to each his own. For me, GM means "Stay Away!"...."FAR Away." :lemon: :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Toyota Market share will tank the same if they continue down the current road they are on which follows the SAME B.S. thrown by GM in the past and even today.
I've heard of NO definitive reason for the UA in the first place. That tells me STAY AWAY FROM TOYOTA. Same for GM.
SEE? I'm not discriminatory....junk is junk until it is proved that the problems are fixed for good. That takes time and the bigger the BS, the more time the perceptions linger which were born from the poor quality in the first place.
Regards,
OW
The fact is that where I am from (Southern California) there are a massive numbers of Camry, Corollas.and Prius on the roads. If the problem(s) were as bad as you stated, I could stand on ANY GIVEN BUSY INTERSECTION and see them running in to things with the unintended acceleration issue, and I am not seeing any.
That's a fact. This is the land of Toyotas and Hondas.