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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Oops, my mistake. I thought you were referring to this Regal Turbo.

    This, IMO, is the one to be excited about.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited June 2011
    About the GNX, the modern replacement for it is the CTS-V. I know which one I'd rather have. And you can get one with manual, no less.

    Couldn't agree more!

    It's funny that you could NOT get a stick with the GN, but you CAN with the CTS-V, even though 25 years ago manuals were found (and offered) in more models than today...
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    Recent prices paid for Sonata pretty similar equipment:

    GLS with Pop Equip Package MSRP $21,995 Price Paid $19,762. Includes Bluetooth, 8 way power drivers seat, Sat Radio, Solar Glass, Heated Mirrors, trip computer, alumininum wheels, floor mats, Spare Tire (!?), MPG 35 Hwy 22 City, 198 hp, 5 year 60k Bumper to Bumper, 10 year 100k Powertrain, 5 year Roadside Assistance.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The Regal turbo I sat in 2 months ago was $31 something. I remember it being about $7k more than my Malibu. BTW, the Malibu ended up under 16 OTD.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    The Grand Prix I didn't like outside at all, but it had a great instrument panel--always a GP tradition.

    I actually like that style of Grand Prix alot, but for the most part, the buying public agreed with you. The GP did fairly well in 1981, all things considered, but then tapered off for 1982. Now to be fair, every car in this league tapered off for 1982, although the Cutlass Supreme and Regal were pretty hot sellers. But for 1983, there was a bit of a resurgence. The re-imagined T-bird/Cougar did pretty well, and as the economy came back, I think the Cutlass/Regal bounced back, and the Monte Carlo did a bit as well, but as Pontiac started re-positioning itself as GM's performance division, for some reason, the Grand Prix was forgotten.

    I always thought it was a shame that the Grand Prix never got a high-performance version. Chevy had the Monte Carlo SS, Olds had the Hurst and 442, and Buick had the T-type, Grand National, and then went out with a bang with the GNX. But Pontiac got nothing. For 1986, they did get the 2+2 coupe, but it was a half-hearted attempt at best. It had a sloped-off front end that tried to be slick like the Monte SS, but didn't come off as well, and a wraparound rear window similar to, but not the same as, the Monte SS Aerocoupe. Why they didn't just use the same rear window for both, I'll never know. But the engine was a kick in the groin. A 150 hp 305-4bbl, which was the same engine that the non-SS Monte, the regular Grand Prix, and the Bonneville G used. I read somewhere that they did give it a quicker axle ratio, something like a 3.55:1, but it was still nowhere near the performer that the Monte SS and sister cars were. Oh, and it listed for something like $18,000, which was more than the Grand National, Monte SS, or Olds 442. I think it did come pretty fully-loaded though, whereas you could get the others pretty bare bones, with crank windows and such.

    I wouldn't mind having a Grand Prix from that era, as long as it was fairly well-equipped and had the 305-4bbl and 4-speed automatic.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I think we'd objectively all have to admit, the domestic manufacturers aping the foreign makers over the past twenty years has resulted in a homogenous mix of cars...nothing distinctly as "American" as an '87 GNX.

    I'd call the CTS pretty distinctly American.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    on the PA turnpike last Saturday, on my way to Cedar Point in Ohio. It was sort of a pearly white color, which coordinated fabulously with the Betty-White hairdo of the driver. Let the flaming begin. :shades:

    Seriously though, not a bad looking car. Didn't exactly stir my soul and make me want to run out and buy one, but didn't offend me, either. The main thing I noticed was that the rear window seemed kinda small, and it looked like it might have a lot of blind spots. But with the way roof pillars are getting so thick, and beltines are rising, I'm sure it's not alone.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    My Malibu's MSRP was $24,555 but I paid $20.6K.

    Actually, I paid $19.1K after my $1,507 in GM card rebate. I'm not sure I could've gotten the trade I got for my Uplander at either a Toyota or Hyundai dealer either.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yep, the GS is a tick slower than the Optima based on those numbers. Can imagine the EPA on the Optima will also be at least 2 MPG better and the interior room is smaller on the GS. At least on track day, the Optima will be second place, however...unless we're talking 1/4 mile track, that is!

    Considering the MSRP, we can assume GM will over price it and I'll wager the dealers tack on the MAP additional cost to the buyer (Market Appreciation Price), like they did on the G8.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Don't know on the Camry or Malibu actual pricing depending on options. The point is GM typically over prices and over incents. Even as they change that, the competition will beat them in the Non-UAW World. It's a terrific world to compete in. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited June 2011
    So, the GS will be at least $35K. That's $4,500 more than a fully optioned Optima SX. :blush:

    Regards,
    OW
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited June 2011
    Wow, that is an incredible deal. :surprise: I don't think you can get a comparable Chevy Snuze for that money, let alone a Malibu...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    edited June 2011
    Where is the Sonata assembled and what is its percentage of NA content? I ask because I don't know.

    The pricing might have come down because of the two recalls already on the '11 model Sonata ;) .
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I don't know it's content but it is built in Alabama IIRC.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I believe the Sonata is built Montgomery, Alabama. I know Hyundai also builds them in Korea and I think China too, so I don't know if all NA sold Sonatas are made here. I don't know what its domestic content is.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    CLick me!

    Why does this NOT surprise me?

    More proof that GM should have axed Buick in the U.S.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited June 2011
    I drove it once. Low end power was very good and it sounded great with the t-tops off - modified exhaust I am sure. However, vague steering, ponderous handling, worrisome brakes (but worlds better than his 83 Monte Carlo CL where there is no feel and you plan stops in advance)...after driving European cars, hard to go that route for me now.

    That pretty much can be said of 99% of the domestic cars in the 80's. I don't think there is a domestic car from the 80's I would want to drive again. Really, I didn't like driving most of them back then. Only a few stand out from memory, and I'm sure today if I drove them again, I'd be disappointed.

    My BIL has an '88 Corvette that's pristine with 40k miles on it. I've driven it a few times and it's crap IMO. Its been a rattle trap since it was basically new, with the z51 suspension, it feels like it has zero suspension travel (the chassis probably has more give than the springs), the interior is cheap and cheesy, the lame digital dash reminds me of an Atari 2600. Sure it performs decently, and I do like the exterior looks of the C4, but man the 80's weren't very good for the domestics IMO. Not to mention, I think he's replaced that car piece by piece with all of the things that have gone wrong with it during the 20+ years he's owned it. He's probably bought it twice.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    That's certainly not surprising.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,456
    That's one of the worst things about that old Monte SS - build quality. Close the door with the window down and it rattles for 30 seconds. T-tops also leak in anything more than a light mist. Upholstery is actually pretty decent and plastics are nothing too bad for the era, but it wasn't built with precision.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    edited June 2011
    We've gotten very used to not having frameless door glass the past twenty years. That's much of the difference between now and then.

    Still, I miss the huge choices in custom-tailoring a car. Now I see the exact same car...EXACT...parked right next to another on a lot. You never saw that twenty-five or more years ago.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    edited June 2011
    My Cutlass windows used to blow "outside" of their seals if I rolled (powered) them up on the highway at anything over 65mph. Basically a 1/2 to a 1 inch gap at the very top. This was before and after I replaced both window tracks on both sides :sick:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I feel an opportunity was missed with the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger - the opportunity to bring back a true two-door hardtop. Unfortunately, they all wimped out and made all three fixed window coupes. Only Mercedes offers a true hardtop nowadays.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    That's one of the worst things about that old Monte SS - build quality. Close the door with the window down and it rattles for 30 seconds. T-tops also leak in anything more than a light mist.

    No doubt about that. My uncle had all sorts of problems with his 87 SS that he bought new. I hardly ever recall driving it w/o the CE light on. He didn't have T-Tops so that wasn't an issue.

    Did any car with T-Tops not leak? I think they all did. My BIL's vette has a removable top (I don't know what GM calls it, but it's targa style) and it's always leaked.

    My other uncle had an early '90's Trans Am and I remember being able to pull the drivers door window out enough to put my arm in to unlock it. I don't think GM new what a light door was back then. They all were destined to sag at some point. Rattles were a huge problem for any GM car that didn't have a pillow soft ride it seemed.

    Still, GM was still able to make a few models back then that stand out. They may not have been built with care, but a few did stand out.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Even my fathers 2004 Grand Prix had front doors that sagged and his was a sedan. I can only imagine the weight of the larger coupe doors. :surprise:
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    At least even back then, anything that made the "CEL" light came on was most likely to be something carried by the 7/70K emissions warranty.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,456
    edited June 2011
    I wonder if modern Subarus and MB hardtops and others with frameless windows had the rattle problem. I don't remember it being too bad on my 66 Galaxie, which was a very old car by the time I had it.

    But yeah, in my area you can see the same beige Corolla 10 times an hour. There are twin silver Civics in my parking garage.

    Monte SS guy drives a fairly loaded (V6, leather, etc) Mazda 6 5 door as a normal car, if that means anything about how the demographic has evolved.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    Rented many a GP over the years and friends have an '07. Never once noticed sagging doors. I'll concede on the styling though. But then I think it was you who witnessed a flaming Cadillac, one of the 3,996 recalled.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,456
    I think sagging doors impacted all large 2 door cars. I think I remember my friend tightening his by using a hydraulic jack.

    I remember back in the day, a co-worker of my father had a new IROC Camaro. I remember the car because it was in the shop often and my dad would give him rides to pick it up. The good old days aren't always so good :shades:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Monte SS guy drives a fairly loaded (V6, leather, etc) Mazda 6 5 door as a normal car, if that means anything about how the demographic has evolved.

    Funny, my uncle now owns a Honda (I never in a million years guessed that would happen). Almost everyone I know that drove GM and Ford products in the '80s drive Toyota and Honda's today. Right up to my parents and inlaws.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I remember back in the day, a co-worker of my father had a new IROC Camaro. I remember the car because it was in the shop often and my dad would give him rides to pick it up. The good old days aren't always so good :shades:

    Very true.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    While that is of course true, I do miss the excitement of new-car introduction time then. Now, really I could mostly care less.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Bloomberg has the early reports on the latest new-car quality survey from JD Power. Ford suffers a big drop due to the complexity of all their Sync gizmos, leaving GM as the only US automaker to rank in the top ten.

    Auto-Quality Survey
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    Must be rigged ;) .
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,456
    Complex systems = low quality. Gotta love it.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2011
    Remember how the Hummer was dinged because people weren't expecting such bad gas mileage? Same story.

    On the other hand, it's a good sign for GM to have them move up in the ranking.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,456
    My mother, who had Fords for the vast majority of my youth, now drives a Camry - and loves it. Squandered opportunity...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,456
    Yep

    "Quality" studies are unreliable creatures.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    . I don't remember it being too bad on my 66 Galaxie, which was a very old car by the time I had it.


    I think those frameless windows got looser in the 70's for a variety of reasons. First, the disappearance of front vent windows, which provided a track for the front part of the roll-down window to anchor to. Second, as the curvature of the side glass increased, it seemed like they were looser. Maybe they had to be, to accommodate that curve? Third, the glass area itself started getting larger, so there was just more window to rattle. And fourth, as the years wore on, they started making window glass thinner and thinner. I can see a progression from my '57 DeSoto through my '67 Catalina, '76 LeMans, and '79 New Yorkers. On the New Yorkers, the glass is so thin that if you roll down the front window at highway speeds, it will actually get sucked out a bit, so when you roll it back up, it won't fully close, because it binds up on a little guide that's built into the rubber seal at the top of the A-pillar.

    Another problem with 70's and '80's cars, is that it seemed like they made them too air-tight. If the windows were fully rolled up, you had to really slam the door to make it close all the way. I'm sure all that slamming loosens them up after awhile. I usually try to keep the windows in my '76 Lemans cracked a bit, so you don't have to slam the door as hard. With the New Yorkers being 4-door cars, they're not quite as bad.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,897
    I agree with every one of your points here, andre.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I think some of the current cars with frameless windows automatically moves the window down a bit and moves it back up to reseal.

    On the New Yorkers, the glass is so thin that if you roll down the front window at highway speeds, it will actually get sucked out a bit, so when you roll it back up, it won't fully close, because it binds up on a little guide that's built into the rubber seal at the top of the A-pillar.

    My Neon 2dr used to do that. It drove me nuts, particularly at highway speeds with a cross wind. The back edge of the window would get sucked out a bit. The only way for it to reseal was to slow way down, roll the window down a bit and roll it back up.

    Probably the biggest reason some of those old coupes required a lot of effort to close the door with the window up was due to how much surface area the doors and glass had. Those doors were far longer than anything you see today. Plus the glass itself was much larger with the lower belt lines those cars had vs. today.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,456
    Good point about the vents and curved glass, no doubt harder to isolate in the door. I remember the Galaxie did have chrome trim around the glass too - no doubt this helped it be stable somehow.
  • js06gvjs06gv Member Posts: 460
    My 2000 Trans Am might very well be the only specimen out there with T-Tops that do not leak, but I have to say that in the 11+ years I've owned it this has never been a problem. I won't go as far as saying the car is any kind of quality benchmark compared to other cars of its time, however it has really held up well overall. A few reasons for this - it only has 37K on it, has been garaged and babied it's entire life, and GM pretty much had all the bugs worked out of the F bodies by year 8. I've replaced a few of the notoriously bad headlamp motors (the reman units from Autozone are hit and miss) and repaired some small cracks that developed on the tops of the seemingly mile long door trim panels (actually had a trim shop fabricate vinyl coverings as a creative solution that look pretty slick) but really nothing else besides routine maintenance, a set of tires and a couple of batteries over the years. Original clutch, brakes, suspension, etc still in place.

    And those T-Tops? The comments around being a 70s throwback, Smokey and the Bandit, guys with mullets, etc etc aside, they really are fun and these days are actually a novelty. Have to say I did feel quite old when a student in my wife's fourth grade class, after telling me how cool the new Mustang GT was that I bought her for Christmas, responded to my comment that I also have a Trans Am with a "Is that a truck?" Oh well........

    2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6

  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    "Funny, my uncle now owns a Honda (I never in a million years guessed that would happen). Almost everyone I know that drove GM and Ford products in the '80s drive Toyota and Honda's today. Right up to my parents and inlaws."

    My Dad was die hard Pontiac when I was growing up. My first car was a 73 Firebird. Then, about 20 years ago, he started buying Camrys, had 5 before he bought a Venza last year. I tried to get him to at least look at a domestic but he wouldn't hear of it. Oh, well.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,681
    Very nice! :blush:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,032
    edited June 2011
    My Dad was die hard Pontiac when I was growing up. My first car was a 73 Firebird. Then, about 20 years ago, he started buying Camrys, had 5 before he bought a Venza last year. I tried to get him to at least look at a domestic but he wouldn't hear of it. Oh, well.

    My Mom was a big Pontiac fan when she was younger. Her first new car was a 1966 Catalina convertible that she managed to buy when she was 17. After that, she got a hand-me-down '68 Impala 4-door hardtop from my grandparents, who then used the Catalina as a trade-in on a new '72 Impala. After I was born, Mom didn't like the idea of driving around in a convertible with a baby.

    Her second new car was a '75 LeMans coupe. Next came a 1980 Malibu coupe. She really wanted another LeMans, but by that time, there was about a $100-150 difference in price, and that was enough to make a difference. Next came a 1986 Monte Carlo, base coupe, but with a 305 V-8. After that though, came a string of imports...1991 Stanza, 1999 Altima (which she and my stepdad still have, with 320,000+ miles on it), 2008 Altima, and a 2011 Prius.

    I think my Mom would have liked to have sticked with domestics, but it was just getting to the point that they didn't offer anything she liked. In 1986, I think Mom was actually leaning towards a Grand Am, but my stepdad was probably pushing for something Japanese. So, how they ended up with the Monte Carlo, I don't know. Maybe because the Malibu had been a pretty good car. The Monte was even better. It made it to 192,000 miles. By that time it had been handed down to me, and I got t-boned delivering pizzas, and that totaled it.

    Of the GM brands, my favorite has always been Pontiac as well. I was sad to see them go, but GM had neglected the brand for far too long. The G8 was a noble attempt to try and bring it back, but alas, it was too late.

    As for my Dad, he had a '64 GTO back in the day, but was more of a Chevy guy. He also had a '63 Impala SS409 with the 425 hp setup (sold it when he got drafted), and a '65 Impala SS396 with 425 hp (abandoned it on a country road when it threw a rod), and a '62 Corvette (kinda ratty when he got it, and he made it worse). Today, he drives a 2003 Regal. And when he first saw my 2000 Park Ave, he said "you bought an old man's car!"
  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    Besides the T/A, the LeMans has always been my favorite. I've had three of them: Luxury LeMans, Grand LeMans, and a wicked Grand Am that would blow away 'Vetts between stoplights. Never had any problems with any of them.

    I really, REALLY wanted a GTO Judge for my first car but my dad insisted on a 73 Firebird from a school teacher he knew. Looked just like Jim Rockford's. Never had any trouble from that car either.

    Bought a brand new '98 T/A and it was in the shop way too many times. Sadly, I got rid of it after two, disappointing years.
  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    Good to see you back, Rocky!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Rocky! How the heck are you?!?!??

    Nice piece there.

    On the subject of brand preferences, I thin k my dad liked GM more than anything but he bought all over the field when he was younger - that was the $150 car days. We moved up from that to buying fleet cars from State Farm where his brother had an in. We'd get mostly full size Fords from 66 into the early 70s. He tried buying a nice new Ford but it was a Granada or, as we called it, the Grenade. Then he got that 72 Impala and we all took notice. It was my favorite of the old dad cars. More so even than the later Caddies.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • iwant12iwant12 Member Posts: 269
    Makes me want to buy a Camaro SS!
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