GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Interesting that GM is taking a hard line on the Impala issues. I've got an '06 Saturn ION which was affected by the power steering issue that was common on both the Cobalt and ION.

    I took my car to an "Authorized Saturn Service Center" (aka local Chevrolet dealership) and had the problem fixed. No charge to me.

    Seems inconsistent for GM to honor a recall / repair for one model but not another.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If I buy any car outside of a Cadillac, it won't be any current Lexus which is so anonymous-looking it blends into the background. Even Lexus doesn't know where the GS fits in their lineup like Hyundai doesn't know what to do with the Azera. I liked Lexus designs a lot better when they copied a last-generation M-B than what they are now doing. I'd sooner consider a Mercedes E-Class and get the real thing.

    The GS fuel economy figures aren't so impressive either. I managed to obtain similar MPG with a 1988 Buick Park Avenue without all that high-tech hybrid gimcrackery.

    If I were foolish enough to buy another new car, the Cadillac XTS is at the very pinnacle of my shopping list.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's one vehicle, pretty much a drop in the bucket. With the Impala thing they were looking at a massive number of recalls and fixes, which would have cost GM a lot of money. Getting out of having to do that would have saved six or seven figures easily.

    Besides, bankruptcy's whole idea is to shake off old liabilities...one could see this in that light theoretically. I still think it was a huge mistake, technically legal or not. Telling customers you won't stand behind your product is a great way to turn them into former customers, and great advertising for the competition.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,724
    As for the Lexus being different from the rest of the toyotas, that's a real belly laugh. It's all designed, styled, and engineered by toyota, Japan. Same company, same parts.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited November 2011
    The GS fuel economy figures aren't so impressive either. I managed to obtain similar MPG with a 1988 Buick Park Avenue without all that high-tech hybrid gimcrackery.

    Apples and oranges. The GS450H is about luxury and performance (granted it doesn't really do anything for me either). What car does GM have that gets similar FE and same performance? None. Granted I too don't really see the point of it. But to compare a fwd '88 P/A that barely weighs over 3k lbs to a 4200lb rwd sport sedan that has a 0-60 of 5.2 seconds is comical. IMO it is impressive that the GS hybrid has double the HP, 25% more mass, and returns about 15% better FE (EPA).

    The new model is going to have much improved FE and similar performance to the current model. So will be in the mid 5 second 0-60 range with 29/34/31.

    That '88 P/A you had probably has similar FE and performance to the new Buick Verano (going by the FE you report getting, not EPA). Yep, that's progress;)

    EPA wise, the '88 P/A's 17/26 isn't very impressive.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,098
    The new model is going to have much improved FE and similar performance to the current model. So will be in the mid 5 second 0-60 range with 29/34/31.

    That '88 P/A you had probably has similar FE and performance to the new Buick Verano (going by the FE you report getting, not EPA). Yep, that's progress;)

    EPA wise, the '88 P/A's 17/26 isn't very impressive.

    I think one point of confusion might be the way the old and new EPA ratings numbers tend to get mixed up. Lemko's '88 Park Ave was probably originally rated 19/29, and I've heard that with those older C and H bodies with the 3.8, it's actually pretty easy to beat the EPA ratings.

    So, he's probably reminiscing about getting 30+ mpg out on the highway with his old Park Ave, and then seeing the 34 mpg highway rating on the new Lexus, and thinking it's not really that much of a jump.

    I wonder what that GS 29/34 rating would be under the older 1985-2007 numbers? My uncle's Corolla was 30/38, but was reduced to 25/34 under the revised 2008+ ratings. So, I guess that GS might have scored something like 34 city/38 highway under the '85-07 numbers.

    Pretty impressive, although I doubt you'd get those numbers if you took advantage of that ~5 second 0-60 time! :P Although to be fair, if Lemko was constantly flooring his old Park Ave, he wouldn't have been getting 20city/30highway or better, either.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    Unlike the previous hybrid, which was more or less just for show. Kind of like the useless and pretty much never bought LS hybrid.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I wonder what that GS 29/34 rating would be under the older 1985-2007 numbers?

    That is for the 2012 or 2013 model that comes out next year. The current model is 22/25/23. Both EPA ratings are under the current formula.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Next time I see a GS thundering down the dragstrip or aggressively going through hairpin turns at the F-1 track, I'll keep that in mind. A GS most likely would be driven in the same leisurely style as one would an old Park Avenue.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited November 2011
    Excellent post! GM is far behind and playing catch up. Sound familiar?

    I believe the point of luxury car hybrids is that the trickle down effect to the mainstream cars happens as the tech improves but that FE is a home run afaic. The CTS will be left in the dust in performance and FE as a result vs. the Lexus, even with the top engine in the standard CTS. The CTS-V used to be the answer to the M5 but not anymore as the new M5 has leapfrogged the CTS-V. :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited November 2011
    A GS most likely would be driven in the same leisurely style as one would an old Park Avenue.

    While I agree the GS certainly isn't one of the top sport sedan's available, a customer that buys a GS certainly cares more about performance than most who buy Buicks. In most people minds, Buick represents the opposite of performance. Not to mention, few of those who bought a new '88 P/A are still among the living.

    I've driven many P/As. An F150 offers better perforance;)
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited November 2011
    I pretty much agree. Regardless, if I'm spending $60k+ it's going to be a MB or BMW, period!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    the new M5 has leapfrogged the CTS-V.

    Proof?

    If you guys hate GM so much, why are you in this topic so much? Why don't you hang out in the Lexus and BMW threads or start your own "I Hate GM" topic? I don't care if that Lexus GS or BMW M-5 was free, came with a pallet of gold bars in the trunk, an ashtray full of flawless diamonds, $100,000 cash in the glovebox, and came with my own choice of young actress or supermodel, I would STILL choose a Cadillac or Buick over them.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    the new M5 has leapfrogged the CTS-V.

    Proof?

    M5 Now World's Fastest Sedan

    Caddy only has one car in it's stable at the moment. Choose away!

    Regards,
    OW
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I would STILL choose a Cadillac or Buick over them.

    I don't understand the blind loyalty. I've bought GM vehicles in the past and I may in again in the future. It simply depends on the product. If everyone was blindly loyal, GM would still have 50% plus market share and would have never gone bankrupt.

    I admit I have a bias for Ford, but I will not buy a Ford just because it's a Ford. It has to be better than other vehicles I'm looking at. That's usually not the case. My Expedition is not very well built and quite frankly my wife's Taurus has it's issues too. That's unacceptable IMO. I really like the new F150, but I seriously question whether Ford has improved enough to warrant my business.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    a customer that buys a GS certainly cares more about performance than most who buy Buicks

    The new model is lighter and sportier than the outgoing one. Car & Driver said it might occupy the slot vacated by the BMW 5 series, now that the Bimmer has gotten bigger and softer.

    I'm sure some people here (who haven't driven one, nor will they ever) will disagree.

    For track days, though, the IS-F is better suited, with a Lightning Lap that matches the M3 and beats the C class AMG.

    Since this is a GM thread I will point out that the CTS-V beat all of the above.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    free, came with a pallet of gold bars in the trunk, an ashtray full of flawless diamonds, $100,000 cash in the glovebox, and came with my own choice of young actress or supermodel

    I'll take one of each, please, a GS *and* an M5, with Scarlett Johansson.

    And please tint the windows limo dark so my wife can't see .... the cash, of course.

    :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    Is it a crime to disagree without driving one, but not to agree without driving one?

    When you get down to fractions of a second, driver can be more important than car...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    As for the Lexus being different from the rest of the toyotas, that's a real belly laugh. It's all designed, styled, and engineered by toyota, Japan. Same company, same parts.

    Sounds just like Caddy/Chevy/Buick/Saturn/Pontiac/Hummer/GMC/....
    :P :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I've driven a few IS, at least, and the outgoing GS.

    You'll pre-judge the GS without even seeing one.

    You're so guilty you even knew who I was referring to, LOL.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Or VW/Audi...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    Some people have fixations with the opinions of others, makes guessing easy :shades:

    I've sat in the IS - doesn't fit me right, not made for people over 5'11" to really be comfortable, I think. I've rode in the old GS, it was fine albeit bland, and LS as well - could put me to sleep.

    Oh yeah I get it, at least in worldwide upmarket terms, Lexus is still the underdog, even if it has massive corporate backing and blind support of NA market devotees.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I never mentioned your name (didn't need to). :P

    People like to pick on Lexus, but around Summit Point, at an Audi event, the C class didn't really stand out as being any better than the IS, both AWD models.

    Later at a BMW autocross course, RWD models this time, again, no significant difference between the Lexus and Mercedes.

    I just don't get why you pick on Lexus so much, and Asian brands in general.

    Actually I do get it - it's your own bias.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    Yes, you wouldn't be hounding anyone else ;)

    Plain old C-class isn't meant to be sporty, to be fair. But I'd like to see all the data too - drivers, how many laps were used, etc. Sample size of one is kind of iffy.

    Easy to pick on Lexus - a couple decades of forgettable driving experience, mostly derivative styling, and owners who will claim to "not be badge snobs" while flaunting the swoopy L like it is the spirit of ecstasy :shades:

    I don't really recall picking on Honda, Nissan (other than the drone), the small brands, Just Lexus, some Toyotas, and Hyunkia. As this is a GM thread, GM fans can probably understand...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don't look at me - I've never owned a Lexus, nor any luxury car for that matter. I'm just shocked at the bias against the italic L.

    Hmm, add Juke, Acura as a whole, to your hit list. Do you suffer from Nipponophobia?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    edited November 2011
    Why be shocked? I am sure there are things you don't care for, even if you don't want to admit it here ;)

    Juke is just ugly. I don't hate it - doesn't have a [non-permissible content removed] clientele or something, it's just ugly, and I believe it was intentional just to be different. Same for Acura. Everyone laughs at those botched "designs", is the shield beak or the ZDX not worthy of snickering?

    Phobia = fear. Fear of what, being lulled into a coma? Camry and lower Lexus have become the 21st century Buick.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Why be shocked?

    Did you answer his question with another question? I thought that wasn't acceptable! ;)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,724
    >21st century Buick.

    I am fairly open-minded, but I think you just insulted Buick.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Who cares if it's ugly? It's mean. That's where the beauty is.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,098
    Who cares if it's ugly? It's mean. That's where the beauty is.

    I dunno if I'd call that look "mean". Dorky, perhaps. :P That front-end sort of looks like the designs for three or four different cars got stuck together.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    For $60K+++ I'd rather have a CTS-V and screw the fuel economy. Nothing in the Lexus lineup compares at that price.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    "... But to compare a fwd '88 P/A that barely weighs over 3k lbs to a 4200lb rwd sport sedan.."

    Try 3740 lbs. And my father had one and routinely achieved 32-34 mpg. Granted he drove like a grandpa (55-60), but he DID have 4 adult men and luggage in it.

    http://www.chacha.com/question/how-much-does-a-1988-buick-park-avenue-weigh
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,098
    Try 3740 lbs. And my father had one and routinely achieved 32-34 mpg. Granted he drove like a grandpa (55-60), but he DID have 4 adult men and luggage in it.

    I don't think that's right, either. I'd guess an '88 Electra/Park Ave weighed around 3200-3400 lb, depending on how it was equipped.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That's not the mean part. The mean part is the 180+ HP out of a force-fed 1.6L engine. :shades:
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    For $60K+++ I'd rather have a CTS-V and screw the fuel economy. Nothing in the Lexus lineup compares at that price.

    I read a lot of posts like that, but for the people that actually put their money where their mouth is they are buying other vehicles to drive. I don't remember the last time I saw a current gen CTS-V on the road. Not that the Lexus GS sells well, but I routinely see M3s, occasionally see M5s, then of course various AMG badges that I couldn't tell you if they actually have AMG power under the hood or not. I've seen more Panameras this year than CTS-Vs.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    edited November 2011
    How about a link that works.

    I don't see any proof that the M5 is better in any way than the CTS-V.

    But according to Edmunds the Cadillac is $22,500 cheaper and a half second quicker to 60 mph.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Well, you do have a point there. The issue is that GM is behind the curve.

    Imagine CTS-V performance and 30 mpg. GM doesn't have that capability and the competition is forging way ahead. That's the idea that you are missing. :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited November 2011
    Try this one.

    M5 Fastest Sedan

    But just in case....

    The Cadillac CTS-V was the first production four-door sedan to ever traverse the Nurburgring’s North Loop in under 8 minutes – logging a 7 minute 59 second lap – but the Porsche Panamera Turbo one-upped the Caddy with a 7 minutes 56 second lap. However, both cars have now been knocked down a peg, with the M5 setting the new course record.

    At the hands of a BMW factory test driver, the all-new M5 laid down an impressive time of just 7 minutes 55 seconds, no doubt thanks to its new 560 horsepower twin-turbocharged 4.4L V8 engine.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    Nah, it wasn't meant that way. Look at the people who bought Buicks 30-40 (or maybe even 20) years ago. Now look at Camry and ES drivers. Eerily similar.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    edited November 2011
    How is it mean? It's not intimidating looking. It won't spank you on the track. My boring old sedan will destroy it off the line. It's just weird, I think for the sake of being different. When a designer can't make something nice, he makes something odd, as the desire is attention. As long as it isn't disjointed (hello, Aztek and beaky Acuras), it usually isn't rejected outright.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    My question was rhetoric. The other question was avoidance. There's a difference :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Depends on where you live. I see quite a few CTS-Vs here in Philly.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    My question was rhetoric. The other question was avoidance. There's a difference

    Good one! I think I'll put together a logic flow diagram for acceptable responses, given all conditions, and you can help correct it. :P
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Please advise if Consumer Reports has this right...or what?

    Chevrolet Volt tops 'Consumer Reports' owner survey

    I can't wait to see the responses! :D

    Regards,
    OW
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    You don't see them on the road because their probably in the shop getting a new rear diff... The rear ends on them have been a problem spot since day one. :sick:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    How is it mean? It's not intimidating looking. It won't spank you on the track. My boring old sedan will destroy it off the line.

    It'll spank your boring old sedan on a rally course, now won't it? :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,604
    Maybe in some parts, but sometimes there's no replacement for power. I wonder what the take rate is for the AWD model too. Sorry, not seeing anything mean in it, just weird.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Are we seriously comparing a Juke to Fin's MB? That's kind of funny. I don't know enough about the Juke to comment. But it is um.... interesting looking.

    Considering the price point, I wouldn't be surprised if the AWD take rate is 50/50 or less. Looks like AWD is roughly $1800. Not insignificant on a 20-30k vehicle.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    But it is um.... interesting looking.

    Considering the price point, I wouldn't be surprised if the AWD take rate is 50/50 or less. Looks like AWD is roughly $1800. Not insignificant on a 20-30k vehicle.

    The one thing I don't like about the Juke is that you have to take the CVT in order to get AWD.

    I test drove a FWD, 6-speed Juke a month or so ago. Nice car .. sort of like a Japanese GTI, just a bit taller.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    Told ya before........he's GM's #1 fan, they can do no wrong, according to him.
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