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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Oops, looks like I'd be going a bit higher than $16-20K. I just spec'ed out a Cruze 2LT, the nice one with the leather and alloys. Added an automatic and sunroof, and got an Edmund's TMV of around $22700! Local dealer Fitzmall has a few equipped like that with an internet price of around $22,500.

    I tried to spec a similar Civic, which I guess would be the EX-L, and got a TMV of $21,975.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Mine was a 4-door 5-speed, with the optional 15 inch tires and wheels and wheel covers, ABS, factory CD, AC, side moldings and the package that you got you body-colored bumpers and side moldings (!). That's about it.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Yeah, the Neon 3 speed auto was a downer. I had mine 2 1/2 years, put 75k miles on it when I got rid of it. Overall it was a good car. I was 24 when I bought it and I beat the hell out of it. Had a few minor warranty issues, but nothing major failed, and it never left me stranded.

    A buddy of mine at the time had a '94 Civic Si hatchback and we'd go out in the country (indiana had/has plenty of straight, flat desolate roads) and drag race all of the time. We were usually neck and neck based on who got the best launch. We'd race to 100 or so, slam on the brakes, turn around and do again and again. Dumb, but it was sure fun.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Did your Cavalier have a multi colored interior fabic? The Neon did.

    That's because the Neon made you sick and you got vomit stains in the fabric, right? :P

    Sorry, as a Chrysler guy, I know I should be defending the Neon, but I just couldn't resist!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    Ask Saab what they did with the money

    That doesn't make sense. Spyker paid GM for Saab, not the other way around.

    Any how, I hope for Saab owners' sake that GM steps up, though to be fair only for cars sold prior to the Feb 2010 sale.

    Edit: per Rob's post they are. Good for them!

    From the article:

    This act of kindness is very surprising, because GM doesn’t even like covering warranties on local-made products it considers was built by “old GM.”
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    DSG costs more up front, and I've heard complaints about maintenance costs, too.

    I expect someone shopping for a fuel miser is aiming to lower operating costs, so that's why I bring those up.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wasn't the mid 90s Jetta built in Germany, while the same era Golf was made in Mexico?

    My roommate's girl friend had a Golf. You could break in to it by LOOKING at the lock and concentrating. Quality control was horrific.

    Ironic that today the Golf is nicer, and the Jetta went through some serious cost cutting.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    DSG costs more up front, and I've heard complaints about maintenance costs, too.

    DSG transmissions are neat, but I guess the jury is still out on longevity.

    I guess anymore with 5-8 speed transmissions, cheap rebuilds are likely a think of the past.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I don't know when Jetta started being built in Mexico. I know my '00 Jetta was and it seemed well assembled. The only issue I had with it was a flimsy cup holder that slid out from the dash.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yup.

    I'm pro-manual, and I always say, a new trans is a few thousand. A new clutch is a few hundred. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They should add a grand to the sticker and make this setup standard:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/21/onstar-bringing-another-4g-lte-concept-to-ces- /

    That's pretty sweet. Encourages car pooling, too.

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/21/sonic-in-short-supply-as-chevy-closing-in-on-- all-time-sales-reco/

    General Motors says Chevrolet dealers have just a 17-day supply of the new B-segment bruiser.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I'll take my 274 hp/269 lb-ft., thanks! ;)

    Same price as the Hybrid, loaded without GPS!

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I have first hand experience with BIG 3 crap, and an '87 Jetta.

    Cool, I had an '85 Jetta and got 143K almost totally reliable miles out of it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Malibu will get a turbo option, too, right? Let's see how they stack up against each other.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Malibu will get a turbo option, too, right?

    Sure. Way late, wouldn't you say? Good "New GM", following as usual. Let's see if the government still owns them when the turbo is available.

    Let's see how Hyunkia counters by then. :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Obviously, styling is subjective, but I couldn't think of a blander-looking car than what I think is a mid-'90's Jetta. The cut of the rear doors was almost a perfect square, and the wheel openings were tiny, leaving a lot of sheetmetal above. The '80's ones, that had a rear-door cut a la BMW, were sharper I think. I used to ride to work with a guy with a '90's one and the interior was so bland too...I know, to Europhiles, that's "teutonic".
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,467
    edited December 2011
    I think most Jettas since the Jetta III have been made in Mexico. A roommate in college had a then late model 95 Jetta, Mexican built, in the shop once a month if he was lucky.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A V-6 Camaro is girly in my book! A MAN has a V-8 Camaro!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited December 2011
    My girlfriend drove one of these when I was in college! :shades:

    image

    This illustration looks very much like her car! The car was in incredibly awesome condition at the time, (early-late 1980s). You'd swear it just rolled off the assembly line.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Would you rather have a girl who drives a Beretta or carries one?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    LOL, I guess that would be an administrative assistant;)

    Oh oh! I guess we have to refer to White House Cabinet Members as Administrative Assistants, i.e. the Administrative Assistant of Defense. How about the Administrative Assistant General of the United Nations?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I don't have real world experience with a mid-90's Jetta to compare to the '95 Neon

    I have! My girlfriend of the time had a brand-new 1994 Jetta and that car seemed to be broken every other Thursday. It was plagued with electrical gremlins, ate CV joints for breakfast for some reason, it suffered some tranny maladies, and parts and service for a supposed "economy car" were astronomical. A front brake job was $650 (in 1994). Spark plug wires were $90 for four. The (ahem) "service" advisor was so surly he made Tony Soprano look like Mr. Nice Guy. Your 1995 Neon would've been Lexus-reliable compared to her Jetta.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Did you know Hyundai is the profit leader?

    GM, which is poised to take back the global sales crown from Toyota Motor Corp. (7203), wants to beat Ford’s and Volkswagen AG (VOW)’s 7 percent forecasted EBIT margins, said Jim Cain, a spokesman.

    Ammann has been talking about Hyundai’s 10 percent forecasted margin as a stretch goal, Cain said.

    “The way we talk about Hyundai is more of a proof point that we need a sense of urgency,” he said in a phone interview.

    In the first nine months of this year, GM posted an operating margin of 5 percent, compared with 6.7 percent for Ford, 7.7 percent for Volkswagen and 10 percent for Hyundai, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.

    Boosting margins just with white-collar cuts and efficiency improvements will be difficult, especially if the comparison is Hyundai, said Adam Jonas, a New York-based analyst at Morgan Stanley. Hyundai benefits from the weak won and because the company builds many different vehicles on just a few car platforms, he said.

    “White-collar cost is almost a rounding error for GM,” Jonas said in a phone interview. “Hyundai has a currency advantage and great global platform sharing. Making white-collar staffing cuts is not going to get it done.”

    GM has 141,000 hourly employees and 69,000 salaried employees. At the end of 2008, it had 170,000 hourly workers and 73,000 salaried workers, according to company filings.

    GM is working to cut vehicle architectures to 14 from 30 by 2018.


    GM Said to Hire Hackett to Identify N. America Job Cuts

    The axe will fall. Keep trying, GM, keep trying.

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I could live with issues like that in a new car if the servicing dealer is top-notch, but it's hardly class-leading first-year quality...maybe no worse, but not brag-worthy either.

    Even those that spout of the superior quality of Hyundai/Kia's aren't usually so foolish as to assume that quality translates into reliability or durability on par with Honda or Toyota. They might be class leading in STATS right now (a form of quality), but reliability and quality of another sort is another thing all together.

    Me... I'd probably still pick the Honda over the Hyundai, but it has my eyebrows raised.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I saw Tyler Perry, in drag, put one of those through the front of a fast-food restaurant. Well, okay, it was a '70, and a Sedan DeVille... Go to about the 1:15 mark of this video.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,467
    South Korea is a known currency manipulator - just another way they are subsidizing the chaebol.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    around $22700! Local dealer Fitzmall has a few equipped like that with an internet price of around $22,500.

    wholly moley! Way too expensive for a small car like a Cruze. That's super way overpriced, just like the Volt.

    I got my V6 Accord Coupe with Alloy wheels at the very end of 2002 (2003 model) for about that much (25K out the door with CA's super high sales tax and DMV fees).
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Obviously, styling is subjective, but I couldn't think of a blander-looking car than what I think is a mid-'90's Jetta. The cut of the rear doors was almost a perfect square, and the wheel openings were tiny, leaving a lot of sheetmetal above. The '80's ones, that had a rear-door cut a la BMW, were sharper I think. I used to ride to work with a guy with a '90's one and the interior was so bland too...I know, to Europhiles, that's "teutonic".

    In 1985 I wanted a nice handling smaller sedan. There was really nothing at GM that was even worth considering. I did look at the Tempo/Topaz, but those were a joke. Ended up with the Jetta, AFAIR I paid 11 or 12K for my Jetta GL. Drove it 143K miles and only real problem was a sticking fuel pump relay that would occasionally cause the car not to start if it was warm outside. Sold it in '94 when kid #2 came along and we needed a minivan.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    Yes, a DSG oil change is more costly than ATF fluid (though most shops will probably throw fluid where DSG OIL should be used - be CAREFUL).

    But wouldn't you rather support your local economy by paying a bit extra for work on your car at the local mechanic than to support the Taliban by guzzling more gas!!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    wholly moley! Way too expensive for a small car like a Cruze. That's super way overpriced, just like the Volt.

    Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Now granted, I do think the Cruze is a nice small car. But that same Fitzmall group I mentioned also has 2012 Altimas, with leather and a sunroof, for around $22K. $500 LESS than the Cruze, yet similarly equipped, and a larger, faster car. I think even with the turbo, the Cruze is only good for 0-60 in around 9.3 seconds. I've actually seen some tests that put the Altima 4 cyl as quick as ~7.7, but I think those are aberrations, like the mythical 3.9 second 1965 Pontiac Catalina 2+2. I think most tests of it are more like 8.5 seconds.

    I guess one thing that the Altima has going against it, though, is that it's an old design, dating back now to 2007. So that might be one reason they're moving them kinda cheap.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I dunno. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seems like a pansy to me. Kinda projects strength outside, but I see weakness on the inside.

    I'm not to worried about him. I'm more worried about the billions and billions debt we keep adding every day.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll stick with an efficient manual, and keep my money, vs. giving it to OPEC or my mechanic. ;)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Lemko, was that '69 Fleetwood a Sixty Special or a Brougham?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    Impoossible. NOthing could top the incredibly bad reliablity of the Neon. It was simply the lemonyest lemon ever made. Very bitter, very sour.

    $650, $90. consider yourself lucky.

    Everything that breaks on the Neon is seemingly $1,000 + from head gaskets, to transmissions, to AC compressors.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Job cuts, great for America--sheesh (sarcasm)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    edited December 2011
    I must admit the last few hundred posts have been quite interesting, heated at times but always entertaining. I know I'm an very infrequent poster (not trying to be a troll) but didn't notice I was that far behind :surprise: . One thing that kind of caught my attention was the posting of the C3 (or any) Corvette and Vega sharing / not sharing a steering wheel - the truth is they did and the Corvette has used many other vehicle's steering wheel over the years.

    I can't post pics but here's a link to the Vega - Corvette wheel in question: Steering Wheel

    If the link doesn't work just google Pictures of 1976 Corvette Steering Wheel or something like that & you'll see images of it. This wheel was also used on:

    1. Cavaliers
    2. sport wheel option on early 2nd gen Camaro's (ref. RPO code NK4)
    4. standard wheel later on with a function rubber-rimmed version
    3. perhaps early 3rd gen Camaro - can't remember 100%
    4. early gen S-10 trucks/blazers and full-size

    The C5 Corvette's wheel also was basically the later gen S10 / full-size truck wheel. Again, this caught my eye because I've driven, worked on and cursed enough of these GM beasts to remember. I mean, no different than the Mustang & Falcon (being the same car) using the same steering wheel (Mustang just used a different center cover over the plain Falcon wheel).

    There is also a write-up on CorvetteCentral about the very same thing & how to swap it to the later 77 - 82 wheel as well as the WSJ article discussing the C5/C6 sharing a wheel similar to the Cobalt.

    76 CC SW Upgrade
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    South Korea is a known currency manipulator ...

    You seem pretty up on events; are you forgetting the Fed and their QE's? Do you know any people who were typically getting 4-5% on their CD's and savings, and now get 1% if lucky? That takes a lot of food and medicine away from seniors.

    Just 1 more reason I dislike the Guvmint, picking winners and losers. I sometimes feel that I could trust organized crime to be more consistent. And I feel Wall Street is more for suckers and fixed, then going to any casino.

    GM is just 1 part of this corrupt corporate & political power and money grab.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Obviously, styling is subjective, but I couldn't think of a blander-looking car than what I think is a mid-'90's Jetta.

    I agree. They didn't do anything for me at the time either.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    So there you have it, there is positive, there is neutral, there is negative, and then there is extremely negative viewpoints (earned by Big 3).

    Well my experience with Big 3 is the exact opposite. I have had first hand experience with probably 15-20 of them over the past 20 years. The only negative experiences I can think of was a blown head gasket on a 1989
    Astro that was covered by Chevy as good will at 40k. That vehicle went on to 320k.

    Some Ford f-150's needed brake lines replaced due to rust and a gas tank.
    But those were around 15 years old at the time. My business has had 3 F-150s and all were super reliable. We also had 3 Ford Windstars that were solid to 150k (2 of them being totalled). We still have a 2002 Windstar which had the subframe replaced under recall. It Still runs good at about 120K.

    My son had a 2000 Cavalier served him well and cheaply for 200k.
    He currentyhas a 2008 Cobalt with 80k. His only non maintenance issue was a wheel bearing.

    We had a late '80s Dodge Caravan 4 cyl that went well over 200k with no problems. I also had a '96 Eagle Vision TSI which was great over the 3 years I owned it (although the A/C was serviced under recall by Chrysler)

    My wife's 2008 Aura XR is a great car and the only warranty related issue was to have the intermediate steering shaft lubricated.

    I dirve a 2006 silverado and has never seen a dealer for any issue. Still runs great and by the way it has not a hint of frame rust so prevalent in Toyota Tundras and Tacomas.

    I have also owned foreign branded cars. VW,(I have a son who is leasing a new Jetta ...which I find kind of cheap and underpowred with flat hard seats) Nissan (Owned a Maxima which was a good car but had coil problems and a stiff ride), Mazda ( oldr pick-up with blown head gasket)

    By the way my older son's friend bought an old early nineties Toyota Camry with low miles a few years ago for like $4000. Within 2 years he put that amount in it in repairs. For $8000 he could have bought a late model Big 3 product hat would have served him better.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited December 2011
    issue was to have the intermediate steering shaft lubricated.

    What's up with that. My wife's '00 Impala had that issue as did my '00 Suburban. Not that it was a huge deal, but man was it annoying when it acted up. My Suburban's was replaced, but the Impala's was lubed. Then it started acting up again when it was turned in.

    Seems there is a whole decade worth of ISS issues that GM hasn't fixed yet. I still hear the current Impala is still susceptible to that issue.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    We still have a 2002 Windstar which had the subframe replaced under recall. It Still runs good at about 120K.

    How did the recall work on that? A guy I know had a Windstar under the recall and the rust issue was so bad Ford bought it from him.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    edited December 2011
    Excellent post, but the claim was that the Corvette and Cavalier shared a wheel, which did not happen...at least at the same time.

    Back when the Corvette was only $300 more than a Cosworth Vega, they ('Vette and 'performance' Vegas) did share a wheel. Other than it was a fat wheel, I never liked that wheel. The upper spokes often hid upper gauges in the various Chevys it was used it (Chevelle Laguna S-3, Monte Carlo Custom in '72, Monza 2+2 in '75, and yes, Vega GT from '71-77). The wheel was later made a strippo wheel in the '82 Cavalier Cadet, bargain-basement Cavalier. By this time though, it was not used on a concurrent Corvette...it had been replaced a few years earlier in the 'Vette. We're talking over thirty years ago. It was presented as a relatively recent occurrence, in a discussion of recent/current 'Vettes.

    So, you could never look at a new 'Vette, and go over to a new Cavalier, and say, "Same steering wheel." That was the implication. Back in the '70's, the price of a Corvette hadn't gone into the stratosphere yet, in comparison to other Chevys. It was the most expensive model, but not by double-digit thousands like later.

    It was never used in the '82 Camaro, but was a staple in the generation before that.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    I have not heard or read about an ISS issue in an Impala in probably four or five years.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,905
    Has anyone known anybody who had a Toyota pickup frame replaced? I read that was a $13,000 job.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Has anyone known anybody who had a Toyota pickup frame replaced? I read that was a $13,000 job.

    My neighbor didn't have his replaced - Toyota just bought it back from him for about 2X the retail value. He got over $10K for a 10 YO truck with 225K miles on it. He was happy.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    How did the recall work on that? A guy I know had a Windstar under the recall and the rust issue was so bad Ford bought it from him.

    Ford had the van over a month. They provided a loaner car the entire time (a Matrix from Enterprise I think). The entire rear subframe was replaced and the front was inspected. They cleaned the interior and exterior before returning it to us. This is a van we use for work that we paid $5500 for a year and a half ago. It was a positive experience all around leaving me with a good impression of Ford.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited December 2011
    My neighbor didn't have his replaced - Toyota just bought it back from him for about 2X the retail value. He got over $10K for a 10 YO truck with 225K miles on it. He was happy.

    I can only wish my Expedition's frame would rust out and Ford would buy it off me for 2x retail. Ford won't even step up to the plate and fix the paint that's flaking off. I've seen 2010's with bubbling paint. I got a quote for $500 to repaint the tailgate. Guess I'll just have that done in the spring if I decide to keep it.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I have not heard or read about an ISS issue in an Impala in probably four or five years.

    What I meant to say is the ISS issue was still going on with current gen Impala's and Malibu's after they were redesigned. I don't know if it's still a problem, but it seemed like that issue went on forever.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It was a 1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. I wish I knew where that car was today. It was drop-dead gorgeous! I hope it's still in as nice a shape as it was when I saw it and in the hands of somebody who cares for it.
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