I don't know if that's terribly relevant here. Honda isn't playing catch up (although with many of their recent product planning decisions, they might be soon).
Exactly, Honda built a reputation of quality over the course of 30+ years and Honda customers believe/perceive or whatever, that Honda offers high reliability.
But yeah, what I've seen from Honda lately, makes me shake my head.
When my dad bought his '09 Accord, he looked at a Fusion and Malibu, even considered a CTS (though he decided not to spend that much cash), I told him both the Ford and Chevy offered a better warranty. He pretty much responded how I would, that he didn't care, he didn't like the Fusion or Malibu as much. And no he's not biased, the Accord was his first non Ford since 1985.
I've spent over a grand on repairs for my expedition that a 100k powertrain warranty wouldn't do anything for. HVAC controls, window actuators, spark plugs and coil packs aren't covered.
GMC 5-year/100,000-mile Transferable Powertrain Limited Warranty with no deductible2
Right from GM's website. Limited is all I need to know that holes are in the coverage.
GM is certainly not alone, to my knowledge all of the powertrain warranties are limited. It just seems they never cover the crap that fails on my vehicles.
Forget the 100K mile warranty... Any modern auto that has drivetrain issues, even if they are remotely moderate issues, will take a HUGE hit, warranty or no warranty... Even if the problems are covered 100%.
When one buys an expensive item like an automobile, he has certain expectations. If he can get 10 years out of his TV, refrigerator, home heating system, etc., he also expects a reasonable trouble-free lifespan from his car.
Given 2 products to choose from, with one having a stellar reputation for reliability and the other well known for having issues... Both within the same ballpark on price, and both providing the same functions... Which one would you find more appealing?
That's why I think GM may be on to something with the Volt.
A car like that fits perfectly into my driving needs, as 95% or more of my needs are 20 miles or less, yet I occasionally drive longer distances.
I wouldn't buy one today, though... Not due to the price, but due to my local Chevroler dealer. He's not the employer of Mr. Goodwrench. He hired Mr. Goodpliers and Mr. Goodvicegrips.
I can only imagine how they would butcher-up a repair of any kind on a Volt!
Is anyone's warranty described as 'unlimited'? I mean, seriously? Look at the warranty itself...covers most anything powertrain and even covered wheel bearings until this year...I believe GM (sadly) looked at what the others' powertrain warranties covered and saw that wheel bearings weren't covered by the others.
I would bet that you would see the word 'limited' somewhere in Hyundai's warranty too (which is not transferable BTW).
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
From a practical standpoint, I don't think GM or any other automaker is going to try and legally weasel out of bumper to bumper warranty coverage unless there is clear abuse to the product by the owner.
Uplander, I think you are missing my point. The market doesn't react to the GM power train extended coverage because its "limited" and it covers areas that aren't likely to fail. If GM engines and trannies are failing in any significant numbers before 100K then they are toast before this decade is over (But I don't think that is the case). I don't care what Ford or Toyota are offering, I think GM, given its large base of former dissatisfied owners as shown by their market share swoon, needs to go over and above to regain their interest and confidence that they are a changed company and product, rather than focus on their dealer's parochial self interests selling service and extended warranties. Greater market share in the consumer segment will already enhance the dealer business situation.
Is anyone's warranty described as 'unlimited'? I mean, seriously? Look at the warranty itself...covers most anything powertrain and even covered wheel bearings until this year...I believe GM (sadly) looked at what the others' powertrain warranties covered and saw that wheel bearings weren't covered by the others.
I would bet that you would see the word 'limited' somewhere in Hyundai's warranty too (which is not transferable BTW).
GM is certainly not alone, to my knowledge all of the powertrain warranties are limited. It just seems they never cover the crap that fails on my vehicles.
I mentioned that in my post. They are all limited in some form, and that's why I buy the vehicle I like that fits my needs the best for the price I want to spend. The warranty isunlikely to sway me one way or another.
When I bough my Expedition I seriously considered a Yukon XL and Suburban. Well I test drove and looked at them anyway. GM's powertrain warranty never entered the equation. I skipped on a Denali because I didn't think it was worth the money (plus lower towing capacity vs Suburban and Expedition) and I skipped on the Suburban due to not having a 6 speed trans at the time (and horrible experience with the Suburban I had), plus the Expedition had a higher tow rating and I got an excellent deal on the Expedition.
I can see your point if you really like or dislike something, but overall cars and trucks seem to be getting more similar than not. In that situation ownership cost enters the equation and repairs are part of that. The purpose of a bold warranty move like Hyundai is to get skeptics into the showroom. It worked and so I think GM needs some similar move.
Pickups and big SUV's are an interesting segment because there seems to be tremendous ownership or brand loyalty for some reason. Also, Ford's seem to cost less than Chevy's out the door in that market and on the used lot as well. I wonder if Dodge Ram will be able to hold on to its gains long term there?
I can see your point if you really like or dislike something, but overall cars and trucks seem to be getting more similar than not.
Sure, if it's a toss up between two vehicles, then something like a warranty could be the deciding factor.
Pickups and big SUV's are an interesting segment because there seems to be tremendous ownership or brand loyalty for some reason. Also, Ford's seem to cost less than Chevy's out the door in that market and on the used lot as well.
Particularly with pickups. I guess I'm strange, I don't like the same thing over and over. But for a serious truck buyer you really only have 3 choices, though the configurations and options seem almost endless.
The one way a manufacturer could get me interested in a vehicle because of the warranty is if they had one like LL Bean, Land's End or Craftsman tools - guaranteed. Period. I've known folks who but old Craftsman tools and bring a wrench that was used as a hammer into Sears and they get a new one - no questions asked.
Of course no car company is going to do that - even for a limited amount of time or miles.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I don't know that I fully buy into your view that warranties on GM products are designed with the dealer's interest in mind, but I do agree with everything else you stated.
In the end, even if you are correct about dealer profit assistance or not, the same holds true.
If GM came out with an industry leading warranty, say 5-50,000 bumper to bumper, it would clearly show their confidence in their products.
I am really not concerned with just the powertrain warranty. I bought a new Hyundai in 2002 precisely because of the 5 yr./60,000-mile bumper to-bumper warranty.
By the way, I traded in the Hyundai Accent after 5 years for 48% of the purchase price on a used Ranger.
I usually post in Stories From the Sales Frontlines but a fellow poster over there told me about this discussion so I came over here to tell my story about Hyundai’s warranty.
Dumping your Hyundai after 5 years was a smart move. Hyundai refused to honor their 100K mile engine warranty when our ’05 XG350 threw a rod with less than 45K miles on it in November of 2011.
I do my own oil changes for the most part and only 2 of them were done by someone other than me on that car. That engine had 15 oil changes on it when the rod went through the block. The dealer did the last oil change on it in October of 2011 and the windshield sticker said they put 5W20 oil in it but they said that the “tech” knew better than to do that so he put 10W30 in it which is the prescribed oil.
They got me on a technicality. When they did warranty work in March of 2010 they noted the mileage. The very next month when I did an oil change I recorded the mileage on my oil log sheet showing it was less than what they showed the previous month. When I said that they could have made the mistake when they recorded the mileage they said they don’t make mistakes. Yet as I pointed out above, the windshield sticker was wrong but that didn’t mean a thing to them.
Long story short, Hyundai did not replace the engine (even after an appeal to their “claim denial”) although the service manager, when I asked him if the engine was clean, said and I quote him exactly “the engine is VERY clean. In fact the whole car is VERY clean”. Apparently cleanliness is trumped by a “documentation discrepancy” instead of the reverse.
FWIW, it made no difference to them that I have owned 3 Hyundai’s. The ’05 XG350 that blew up and an ’06 Sonata LX that I traded in for an ’09 Genesis, which I still own. I’m holding my breath with the Genny until I decide to get rid of it although it has been a good car so far (less than 37K miles as of ths post). Then again so was the XG350 with that mileage.
Given how Hyundai handles a major problem they have given me good reason to be very untrusting of their vaunted warranty claims.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Yes documentation is very important. Everyone probably has at least 1 story where some business was trying to save some $, with either a technicality or because something wasn't put in writing.
Here's some useful advice. Whenever you can, use a debit or credit card at the gas station. Always get a printout. If I hadn't, 3 years ago, I would have been paying to get my gas-tank drained due to bad gas. Other people had the same problem, but without that receipt I would have had a hard time proving my issue was part of that station's problem.
Get everything in writing and review it for clarity and accuracy. Verbal contracts are not so good, and people will frequently say - "you must have misunderstood". People screwup all the time, and unless you have written records and agreements you will have a hardtime proving your case; I don't care what business it is.
I do my own oil changes for the most part and only 2 of them were done by someone other than me on that car. That engine had 15 oil changes on it when the rod went through the block. The dealer did the last oil change on it in October of 2011 and the windshield sticker said they put 5W20 oil in it but they said that the “tech” knew better than to do that so he put 10W30 in it which is the prescribed oil.
They got me on a technicality. When they did warranty work in March of 2010 they noted the mileage. The very next month when I did an oil change I recorded the mileage on my oil log sheet showing it was less than what they showed the previous month. When I said that they could have made the mistake when they recorded the mileage they said they don’t make mistakes. Yet as I pointed out above, the windshield sticker was wrong but that didn’t mean a thing to them.
Long story short, Hyundai did not replace the engine (even after an appeal to their “claim denial”) although the service manager, when I asked him if the engine was clean, said and I quote him exactly “the engine is VERY clean. In fact the whole car is VERY clean”. Apparently cleanliness is trumped by a “documentation discrepancy” instead of the reverse.
I guess I'm not clear on why you were denied warranty service.
The oil weight should not have been an issue, and in any case, it would be difficult to prove that 5W20 oil caused a rod to release. If anything, the incorrect oil would have caused bearing damage, not a "rod exiting the block".
Did they claim you had doctored the odometer reading?
Still, the possibility exists that an unscrupulous dealer actually got Hyundai Corporate to pay for repairs on the XG350, but waited until jmonroe's case had died on the vine and the $2800 payout had been made giving ownership of the car with the broken rod to the dealership. Said dealer may have then fixed the car on Hyundai's dime and sold the fixed car at a good profit.
We'll never know, but that's what a dealer in trouble may have done to increase revenue. I wouldn't buy a Hyundai on a bet after hearing this story.
Possibly, but with the number of posters on Edmunds, you can easily find bad experiences at dealers of every make and model.
One or two bad experiences do not make a case pro or con, as one or two points on a graph don't necessarily translate into a trend.
I'll say it again...
A poor dealer can destroy one's confidence and satisfaction in the best made car, and a great dealer can make a mediocre car experience feel wonderful.
I've experienced both, although I can't honestly say I ever owned the "best made" car.
We'll never know, but that's what a dealer in trouble may have done to increase revenue. I wouldn't buy a Hyundai on a bet after hearing this story.
Would you have if I told you that when my 2000 Elantra wagon developed a cracked exhaust manifold at just over 135K miles they replaced it immediately with no cost to me because 7 years earlier they got a bad run of them.
Not sure how many makes would have done that type of warranty work after 135K miles.
They proven themselves with me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Would you have if I told you that when my 2000 Elantra wagon developed a cracked exhaust manifold at just over 135K miles they replaced it immediately with no cost to me
Sorry, no. Reason being I was the "friend-advisor" to my buddy who was buying a Hyundai for his daughter about 10 years ago at the same dealership jmonroe bought his XG350. (something Hyundai in Monroeville, Pa).
That car lasted her maybe 3 years. It needed more oil than gas. Not necessarily Hyundai's fault as she had a boyfriend who had a hand in the destruction of that car. Hyundai was no help at all! However, I felt some small semblance of responsibility because of my recommendation that he get his daughter "one with a 100k warranty". My mistake. Won't happen again. The XG350 problem just makes it come full circle.
Still, the possibility exists that an unscrupulous dealer actually got Hyundai Corporate to pay for repairs on the XG350, but waited until jmonroe's case had died on the vine and the $2800 payout had been made giving ownership of the car with the broken rod to the dealership. Said dealer may have then fixed the car on Hyundai's dime and sold the fixed car at a good profit.
I’m not going to go so far as to say that but that is a possibility. What I do know is that I got $2800 for it as it sat with a busted engine. They dropped a new engine in it then put it on their lot for just a few dollars shy of $10K and it sold in less than a week. I doubt that they got all of that $10K but they probably got real close to $8K.
We'll never know, but that's what a dealer in trouble may have done to increase revenue. I wouldn't buy a Hyundai on a bet after hearing this story.
As I mentioned over in the Stories from the Sales Frontlines forum, Mrs. jmonroe is now driving a 2012 Legacy Limited 6 cylinder. I have no plans to ever own another Hyundai after this experience. If being the owner of three Hyundai’s over a period of 7 years meant nothing to Hyundai why should I ever do business with a company that treats its customers like they treated me.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I'm particular when I have work done on my car. While I have never in over 30 years of new cars had to have an engine opened up, my Chevy dealer is always great about warranty work. My local dealer closed down in '09 but many of the Service Department personnel I knew there went over to the dealer I deal with now.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I'm particular when I have work done on my car. While I have never in over 30 years of new cars had to have an engine opened up, my Chevy dealer is always great about warranty work.
I’m also very particular about work that is done on my cars. That’s why I do my own oil changes. When I had the first oil change done on my ’09 Genny in the summer of ’09, I went to this same dealership that refused my claim for a blown engine on my ’05 XG350. When I saw how the clown there was doing it I had to point out several steps that he was doing ALL wrong. They couldn’t even do a simple oil change. That episode just further enforced why I don’t want someone touching my car/s if I can do the work myself.
If I had a good dealer I don’t think I would have had this problem, but like I have said before in another forum, the Hyundai factory rep went along with the claim denial so they are not innocent in this matter as far as I’m concerned.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
When I saw how the clown there was doing it I had to point out several steps that he was doing ALL wrong. They couldn’t even do a simple oil change.
Very important after oil change to open the hood and check dipstick in dealer or other servicer parking lot before moving. Many years ago, had oil changes at dealer other than where bought our car. Once it was way overfilled, another time the oil had not even been changed.
Tell me about it... I once picked up my car from a dealer offering an oil change "special". I, too, was in the habit of checking the oil level after someone else changed the oil.
In this case, the oil didn't even register on the dipstick. Turns out the "mechanic" got "distracted" during the oil change.
As for unscrupulous dealers, if I remember correctly, someone posted on the Nissan forum recently about having to pay for the repair/replacement of a CVT, even though Nissan extended the warranty to 10 years/120,000 miles.
Very important after oil change to open the hood and check dipstick in dealer or other servicer parking lot before moving.
I was there watching him do the oil change so I didn’t have to check before I left.
This so called expert-oil-changer started to put 10W30 oil into my ’09 Genny. I’m guessing that he probably put in a pint before I stopped him by saying, “WHOA, look at the fill cap it says 5W20 not 10W30”. Curious thing here, they put 5W20 into my XG350 not 10W30 like it calls for; at least the windshield sticker said they put 5W20 in. Maybe they just like to jerk me around by putting the wrong oil into my cars, who knows? Anyway, then this clown has to go get the individual bottles of the 5W20 because their bulk system didn’t have 5W20. He puts 5 quarts in and is going to start the engine to check for leaks. At least he got that part of doing an oil change right. BUT, I had to stop him again because the V8 Genny takes 6.8 quarts of oil not 5. Do you see now why I don’t trust people when they touch my car, even for the simple stuff?
I live in PA and we have an annual state safety inspection here so they check brakes, glass, all originally installed safety equipment, exhaust system, do an emissions test, pretty much everything. Because they have to pull the wheels to check the brakes, I don’t leave an inspection garage’s parking lot without first checking that the lug nuts are properly tightened. Sometimes they are too loose and sometimes they are too tight. I know, I’m paranoid, but I’m the one that will suffer the consequences when simple stuff is done wrong.
I’m too old to change my ways now. I’m so bad at this that I’ve passed this paranoia onto my two sons.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Not allowing world-leading commercial social and environmental criminals unrestricted access to our market and idiotic "most favored" status wouldn't hurt either.
Agreed; if we enforce the balanced trade, in theory we would not lose jobs to anyone.
This so called expert-oil-changer started to put 10W30 oil into my '09 Genny. I'm guessing that he probably put in a pint before I stopped him by saying, WHOA, look at the fill cap it says 5W20 not 10W30
Well, to quote the managerette on duty at the one of the local Firestone tire/oil change stores that I no longer go to... "LOOK, we don't have time to memorize the oil weight requirement of every single car out there!"
I had gotten into it with them because they were trying to put 10W-30 in my '89 Gran Fury ex copcar, which actually called for heavier 15W-40.
Needless to say, that was the last time I went to them.
I used to change the oil myself, but lately have gotten lazy. These days, I just pay the mechanic at the local garage to do it. And it's a real, live professional mechanic who does it, and not some high-school kid who might have his mind on other things like sexting and such.
You're a follower of CR--new Focus, worse than average per them.
A reader, not a follower. I form my own opinions by test driving as many cars as I can. I use them as a resource, though, sure.
I'm aware of the issues with the Focus, and the Fiesta too. A co-worker had her whole trans replaced on a Fiesta, but Ford did give her a 7/100 warranty and it's been OK since.
The Fusion looks more like an Explorer inside than a Focus/Fiesta, though.
Let's see how their transmissions do with the new EcoBoost powertrains.
I've heard many stories of no oil, drain plugs falling out, and oil filters falling off over the years from quickie lubes. It happens.
A few years ago, the Ford dealer serviced the trans on my Expedition. For months afterwards I'd occasionally hear a rattle that sounded like a bad heat shield over the exhaust. I finally looked underneath and found a Snap-on LED flashlight sitting on top of a heat shield next to the transmission. It was quite damaged from the heat, but it still worked.
I also had a marina leave the oil fill/dipstick unscrewed on the outdrive of my boat. Thankfully I checked it before putting it in the water or I would have had a drive with water in the oil.
If someone has the time and energy, here's what I propose...
Compare the costs of extending whatever factory warranty a car has to the same threshold, maybe 7/100k bumper-to-bumper.
That levels the playing field.
You don't necessarily find the cars with already-longer warranties cost less to get up to that same threshold. The companies that sell warranties must be researching out-of-warranty repair costs, so for me that would be more significant than debating the length of whatever factory warranty.
Would be fun to see prices from the same 3rd party warranty re-seller for the Malibu, Fusion, Altima, Sonata, Passat, etc.
We can talk all we want, but these guys put their money where their mouth is.
Let's see how their transmissions do with the new EcoBoost powertrains.
I haven't read that Ford will be using the dual clutch trans (powershift) trans that's used in the Fiesta and Focus in the new Fusion. I read they will be using the 6speed auto which I believe will be a conventional auto, it's rated to handle the torque of the ecoboost 4cylinders.
Well, to quote the managerette on duty at the one of the local Firestone tire/oil change stores that I no longer go to... "LOOK, we don't have time to memorize the oil weight requirement of every single car out there!"
That’s the most pathetic answer that I’ve ever heard. In my case all the wizard had to do was look at the filler cap. It clearly says 5W20. The manufacture went through the work of taking the guess work out of it for these nitwits but that ain’t enough for some I guess. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That’s the most pathetic answer that I’ve ever heard. In my case all the wizard had to do was look at the filler cap. It clearly says 5W20. The manufacture went through the work of taking the guess work out of it for these nitwits but that ain’t enough for some I guess. :confuse:
My local shop did that to my Expedition during my last OC. It calls for 5/20 and on the receipt is shows 5w30. I'm not worried about it. But it is irritating.
Excellent idea, just as long as all the quotes come from the same source.
Even then, I suspect these companies "equalize" the offers, so that the price offered on all of the models is the same, given how the cars are equipped (NAV .vs. no NAV as an example)... Just as long as the MSRP is relatively the same.
Since these things are often pushed by "boiler room" sales organizations, equalizing the pricing makes it much easier to push, since the sales personnel really aren't "into" the product they are selling.
In a 25 mile radius from indy airport: '08-'13 cars for sale including dealers Impala 205 one every 10 sq miles Fusion 128 one every 15 sq miles Accord 121 Malibu 116 Chevy 1500 113 F-150 109 Dodge RAM 50 Impala for sale by owner 0 Accord FSBO 0 Fusion fsbo 1
GM's warranty seems good enough to get GM to remain #1 in sales. If other warranties are so much better, why are sales not topping the chart?
Tonight's Autoweek broadcast on Dircect TV Velocity channel had a commercial by Chevrolet on their 4x4 Silverado. It also had top GM and Ford persons participating in a slot car race of an old Camarao and Mustang.
GM is putting their adveritising behind excellent automotive shows. The Autoweek weekly show is on Direct TV channel Velocity and features excellent, outstanding reporting by their Courtney Hansen. Do NOT miss her features and reporting. You will not be disappointed.
In a 25 mile radius from indy airport: '08-'13 cars for sale including dealers Impala 205 one every 10 sq miles Fusion 128 one every 15 sq miles Accord 121 Malibu 116
Considering the Accord has higher retail sales (non fleet sales) of any vehicle on that list it looks like Accord owners don't want to give them up.
GM's warranty seems good enough to get GM to remain #1 in sales. If other warranties are so much better, why are sales not topping the chart?
Do you really believe that? GM was number one in sales when they didn't have the best warranty. GM sale have improved for a few reasons. The warranty might have some effect, but it's mainly due to having more competitive products.
The Cruze, Corolla and Civic all sold in similar numbers for 2011.
On Autotrader there are 1,206 used 2011 Corollas vs 1,512 2011 Civics and 5,301 used Cruzes. That's quite a difference. I don't think the 2011 Civic was available at the beginning of the year. But still, there are twice as many used Cruzes on the market than Civics and Corollas combined. Seems like the superior warranty didn't seem to keep them from being dumped so quick.
2011 Honda CRV 729 total vs 2011 'Nox 2,363. Sure seems like GM vehicles find their way to the used market pretty quick.
GM's warranty seems good enough to get GM to remain #1 in sales.
You still don't get it do you? GM is not #1 because of their OWN effort, marketing, product, warranty or anything else! They are not in the garbage-bin like Saab, because the U.S. taxpayer has given them so much $$$ that they can afford to give rebates, give bonuses to their workers, and go to auto shows.
If the U.S. government gives me, you, or anyone else on this board a whole bunch of $$$, and then we don't have to pay income tax on our profits for years, all of us could run a #1 business in our area!
Any success GM has, can directly be tied to the welfare it received. GM should be very, very humble; not some arrogant welfare bum. :mad:
While the auto industry is still a major presence in Michigan, there's relatively little left of it inside the city limits.
Even though General Motors (GM, Fortune 500)' headquarters is in downtown Detroit, the automaker doesn't even rank among the city's top 10 largest employers. Chrysler Group, the sole auto company in the top 10, operates the only assembly line inside city limits.
So Detroit has seen little benefit from the auto industry's return to profitability.
You still don't get it do you? GM is not #1 because of their OWN effort, marketing, product, warranty or anything else! They are not in the garbage-bin like Saab, because the U.S. taxpayer has given them so much $$$ that they can afford to give rebates, give bonuses to their workers, and go to auto shows.
Yes, here is the garbage-bin nose dive REALITY!
So, therefore, it's really good that GM is #1 in sales, right?
How can you be sure Auto Trader's numbers represent the entire country? Different areas would have different numbers, don't you think? You're using one set of numbers to make YOUR point.
Besides, why all this argument over which car is better or which company is better? If you have had good service from a brand, BUY it.
I've had excellent service from my GM brands, but I'm not going to come on here and demand that some Honda or Toyota owners see thing my way.
"Metro Detroit moved sharply higher in an index of economic growth last year in a worldwide ranking of big-city regions -- thanks to the rebounding domestic auto industry.
The Global MetroMonitor report, released today by the nonprofit Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C., ranked metro Detroit 9th for its 2011 performance among 57 U.S. metro regions studied in the report."
On the third hand, the auto industry is such a small part of the economy and the foreign competition has become much more ingrained in the US automotive industry. As recently as a decade ago, the industry employed about 1 million workers. It then fell into a steady decline that included layoffs of 200,000 workers during the recession. At the low, about 550,000 workers were employed in auto manufacturing.
Hiring started to climb back slowly over the last two years. Now, the research center forecasts employment will top 750,000 in 2015.
One factor is that overseas automakers plan to add factories in the U.S., Lindland said.
Audi executives said they will build a U.S. factory, possibly at the Volkswagen complex in Chattanooga, Tenn.
Nissan also is adding about 1,000 workers in Tennessee as it gears up for production of the Leaf electric vehicle and its batteries, as well as new Pathfinder and Infiniti SUVs.
South Korean automotive siblings Hyundai and Kia also are said to be considering a major expansion in the South.
Automotive employment growth represents a small but important segment of the U.S. economy, said Beth Ann Bovino, senior economist at Standard & Poor's.
"Putting money in people's pockets is good," Bovino said. The comparatively high blue-collar wages offered in the auto factories allow "people to spend on high-ticket items" and generate more economic activity, she said.
But the small size of the auto manufacturing sector — and even manufacturing overall — dampens the effect, she said.
"Manufacturing has shrunk so much. It used to be above 30% of total employment in the mid-1960s, and it has dropped to about 8%," she said.
Comments
Exactly, Honda built a reputation of quality over the course of 30+ years and Honda customers believe/perceive or whatever, that Honda offers high reliability.
But yeah, what I've seen from Honda lately, makes me shake my head.
When my dad bought his '09 Accord, he looked at a Fusion and Malibu, even considered a CTS (though he decided not to spend that much cash), I told him both the Ford and Chevy offered a better warranty. He pretty much responded how I would, that he didn't care, he didn't like the Fusion or Malibu as much. And no he's not biased, the Accord was his first non Ford since 1985.
I've spent over a grand on repairs for my expedition that a 100k powertrain warranty wouldn't do anything for. HVAC controls, window actuators, spark plugs and coil packs aren't covered.
GMC 5-year/100,000-mile Transferable Powertrain Limited Warranty with no deductible2
Right from GM's website. Limited is all I need to know that holes are in the coverage.
GM is certainly not alone, to my knowledge all of the powertrain warranties are limited. It just seems they never cover the crap that fails on my vehicles.
When one buys an expensive item like an automobile, he has certain expectations. If he can get 10 years out of his TV, refrigerator, home heating system, etc., he also expects a reasonable trouble-free lifespan from his car.
Given 2 products to choose from, with one having a stellar reputation for reliability and the other well known for having issues... Both within the same ballpark on price, and both providing the same functions... Which one would you find more appealing?
That's why I think GM may be on to something with the Volt.
A car like that fits perfectly into my driving needs, as 95% or more of my needs are 20 miles or less, yet I occasionally drive longer distances.
I wouldn't buy one today, though... Not due to the price, but due to my local Chevroler dealer. He's not the employer of Mr. Goodwrench. He hired Mr. Goodpliers and Mr. Goodvicegrips.
I can only imagine how they would butcher-up a repair of any kind on a Volt!
I would bet that you would see the word 'limited' somewhere in Hyundai's warranty too (which is not transferable BTW).
Thank the legal profession for that modification.
Uplander, I think you are missing my point. The market doesn't react to the GM power train extended coverage because its "limited" and it covers areas that aren't likely to fail. If GM engines and trannies are failing in any significant numbers before 100K then they are toast before this decade is over (But I don't think that is the case). I don't care what Ford or Toyota are offering, I think GM, given its large base of former dissatisfied owners as shown by their market share swoon, needs to go over and above to regain their interest and confidence that they are a changed company and product, rather than focus on their dealer's parochial self interests selling service and extended warranties. Greater market share in the consumer segment will already enhance the dealer business situation.
I would bet that you would see the word 'limited' somewhere in Hyundai's warranty too (which is not transferable BTW).
GM is certainly not alone, to my knowledge all of the powertrain warranties are limited. It just seems they never cover the crap that fails on my vehicles.
I mentioned that in my post. They are all limited in some form, and that's why I buy the vehicle I like that fits my needs the best for the price I want to spend. The warranty isunlikely to sway me one way or another.
When I bough my Expedition I seriously considered a Yukon XL and Suburban. Well I test drove and looked at them anyway. GM's powertrain warranty never entered the equation. I skipped on a Denali because I didn't think it was worth the money (plus lower towing capacity vs Suburban and Expedition) and I skipped on the Suburban due to not having a 6 speed trans at the time (and horrible experience with the Suburban I had), plus the Expedition had a higher tow rating and I got an excellent deal on the Expedition.
Pickups and big SUV's are an interesting segment because there seems to be tremendous ownership or brand loyalty for some reason. Also, Ford's seem to cost less than Chevy's out the door in that market and on the used lot as well. I wonder if Dodge Ram will be able to hold on to its gains long term there?
Sure, if it's a toss up between two vehicles, then something like a warranty could be the deciding factor.
Pickups and big SUV's are an interesting segment because there seems to be tremendous ownership or brand loyalty for some reason. Also, Ford's seem to cost less than Chevy's out the door in that market and on the used lot as well.
Particularly with pickups. I guess I'm strange, I don't like the same thing over and over. But for a serious truck buyer you really only have 3 choices, though the configurations and options seem almost endless.
Of course no car company is going to do that - even for a limited amount of time or miles.
In the end, even if you are correct about dealer profit assistance or not, the same holds true.
If GM came out with an industry leading warranty, say 5-50,000 bumper to bumper, it would clearly show their confidence in their products.
By the way, I traded in the Hyundai Accent after 5 years for 48% of the purchase price on a used Ranger.
I usually post in Stories From the Sales Frontlines but a fellow poster over there told me about this discussion so I came over here to tell my story about Hyundai’s warranty.
Dumping your Hyundai after 5 years was a smart move. Hyundai refused to honor their 100K mile engine warranty when our ’05 XG350 threw a rod with less than 45K miles on it in November of 2011.
I do my own oil changes for the most part and only 2 of them were done by someone other than me on that car. That engine had 15 oil changes on it when the rod went through the block. The dealer did the last oil change on it in October of 2011 and the windshield sticker said they put 5W20 oil in it but they said that the “tech” knew better than to do that so he put 10W30 in it which is the prescribed oil.
They got me on a technicality. When they did warranty work in March of 2010 they noted the mileage. The very next month when I did an oil change I recorded the mileage on my oil log sheet showing it was less than what they showed the previous month. When I said that they could have made the mistake when they recorded the mileage they said they don’t make mistakes. Yet as I pointed out above, the windshield sticker was wrong but that didn’t mean a thing to them.
Long story short, Hyundai did not replace the engine (even after an appeal to their “claim denial”) although the service manager, when I asked him if the engine was clean, said and I quote him exactly “the engine is VERY clean. In fact the whole car is VERY clean”. Apparently cleanliness is trumped by a “documentation discrepancy” instead of the reverse.
FWIW, it made no difference to them that I have owned 3 Hyundai’s. The ’05 XG350 that blew up and an ’06 Sonata LX that I traded in for an ’09 Genesis, which I still own. I’m holding my breath with the Genny until I decide to get rid of it although it has been a good car so far (less than 37K miles as of ths post). Then again so was the XG350 with that mileage.
Given how Hyundai handles a major problem they have given me good reason to be very untrusting of their vaunted warranty claims.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Here's some useful advice. Whenever you can, use a debit or credit card at the gas station. Always get a printout. If I hadn't, 3 years ago, I would have been paying to get my gas-tank drained due to bad gas. Other people had the same problem, but without that receipt I would have had a hard time proving my issue was part of that station's problem.
Get everything in writing and review it for clarity and accuracy. Verbal contracts are not so good, and people will frequently say - "you must have misunderstood". People screwup all the time, and unless you have written records and agreements you will have a hardtime proving your case; I don't care what business it is.
They got me on a technicality. When they did warranty work in March of 2010 they noted the mileage. The very next month when I did an oil change I recorded the mileage on my oil log sheet showing it was less than what they showed the previous month. When I said that they could have made the mistake when they recorded the mileage they said they don’t make mistakes. Yet as I pointed out above, the windshield sticker was wrong but that didn’t mean a thing to them.
Long story short, Hyundai did not replace the engine (even after an appeal to their “claim denial”) although the service manager, when I asked him if the engine was clean, said and I quote him exactly “the engine is VERY clean. In fact the whole car is VERY clean”. Apparently cleanliness is trumped by a “documentation discrepancy” instead of the reverse.
I guess I'm not clear on why you were denied warranty service.
The oil weight should not have been an issue, and in any case, it would be difficult to prove that 5W20 oil caused a rod to release. If anything, the incorrect oil would have caused bearing damage, not a "rod exiting the block".
Did they claim you had doctored the odometer reading?
There's something not right here...
We'll never know, but that's what a dealer in trouble may have done to increase revenue. I wouldn't buy a Hyundai on a bet after hearing this story.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
One or two bad experiences do not make a case pro or con, as one or two points on a graph don't necessarily translate into a trend.
I'll say it again...
A poor dealer can destroy one's confidence and satisfaction in the best made car, and a great dealer can make a mediocre car experience feel wonderful.
I've experienced both, although I can't honestly say I ever owned the "best made" car.
Would you have if I told you that when my 2000 Elantra wagon developed a cracked exhaust manifold at just over 135K miles they replaced it immediately with no cost to me because 7 years earlier they got a bad run of them.
Not sure how many makes would have done that type of warranty work after 135K miles.
They proven themselves with me.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sorry, no. Reason being I was the "friend-advisor" to my buddy who was buying a Hyundai for his daughter about 10 years ago at the same dealership jmonroe bought his XG350. (something Hyundai in Monroeville, Pa).
That car lasted her maybe 3 years. It needed more oil than gas. Not necessarily Hyundai's fault as she had a boyfriend who had a hand in the destruction of that car. Hyundai was no help at all! However, I felt some small semblance of responsibility because of my recommendation that he get his daughter "one with a 100k warranty". My mistake. Won't happen again. The XG350 problem just makes it come full circle.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
I’m not going to go so far as to say that but that is a possibility. What I do know is that I got $2800 for it as it sat with a busted engine. They dropped a new engine in it then put it on their lot for just a few dollars shy of $10K and it sold in less than a week. I doubt that they got all of that $10K but they probably got real close to $8K.
We'll never know, but that's what a dealer in trouble may have done to increase revenue. I wouldn't buy a Hyundai on a bet after hearing this story.
As I mentioned over in the Stories from the Sales Frontlines forum, Mrs. jmonroe is now driving a 2012 Legacy Limited 6 cylinder. I have no plans to ever own another Hyundai after this experience. If being the owner of three Hyundai’s over a period of 7 years meant nothing to Hyundai why should I ever do business with a company that treats its customers like they treated me.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I’m also very particular about work that is done on my cars. That’s why I do my own oil changes. When I had the first oil change done on my ’09 Genny in the summer of ’09, I went to this same dealership that refused my claim for a blown engine on my ’05 XG350. When I saw how the clown there was doing it I had to point out several steps that he was doing ALL wrong. They couldn’t even do a simple oil change. That episode just further enforced why I don’t want someone touching my car/s if I can do the work myself.
If I had a good dealer I don’t think I would have had this problem, but like I have said before in another forum, the Hyundai factory rep went along with the claim denial so they are not innocent in this matter as far as I’m concerned.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Very important after oil change to open the hood and check dipstick in dealer or other servicer parking lot before moving. Many years ago, had oil changes at dealer other than where bought our car. Once it was way overfilled, another time the oil had not even been changed.
In this case, the oil didn't even register on the dipstick. Turns out the "mechanic" got "distracted" during the oil change.
As for unscrupulous dealers, if I remember correctly, someone posted on the Nissan forum recently about having to pay for the repair/replacement of a CVT, even though Nissan extended the warranty to 10 years/120,000 miles.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f16e08e/209!make=Nissan&model=Altima&ed_m- - akeindex=.f16e08e
# 209
I was there watching him do the oil change so I didn’t have to check before I left.
This so called expert-oil-changer started to put 10W30 oil into my ’09 Genny. I’m guessing that he probably put in a pint before I stopped him by saying, “WHOA, look at the fill cap it says 5W20 not 10W30”. Curious thing here, they put 5W20 into my XG350 not 10W30 like it calls for; at least the windshield sticker said they put 5W20 in. Maybe they just like to jerk me around by putting the wrong oil into my cars, who knows? Anyway, then this clown has to go get the individual bottles of the 5W20 because their bulk system didn’t have 5W20. He puts 5 quarts in and is going to start the engine to check for leaks. At least he got that part of doing an oil change right. BUT, I had to stop him again because the V8 Genny takes 6.8 quarts of oil not 5. Do you see now why I don’t trust people when they touch my car, even for the simple stuff?
I live in PA and we have an annual state safety inspection here so they check brakes, glass, all originally installed safety equipment, exhaust system, do an emissions test, pretty much everything. Because they have to pull the wheels to check the brakes, I don’t leave an inspection garage’s parking lot without first checking that the lug nuts are properly tightened. Sometimes they are too loose and sometimes they are too tight. I know, I’m paranoid, but I’m the one that will suffer the consequences when simple stuff is done wrong.
I’m too old to change my ways now. I’m so bad at this that I’ve passed this paranoia onto my two sons.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Agreed; if we enforce the balanced trade, in theory we would not lose jobs to anyone.
Well, to quote the managerette on duty at the one of the local Firestone tire/oil change stores that I no longer go to... "LOOK, we don't have time to memorize the oil weight requirement of every single car out there!"
I had gotten into it with them because they were trying to put 10W-30 in my '89 Gran Fury ex copcar, which actually called for heavier 15W-40.
Needless to say, that was the last time I went to them.
I used to change the oil myself, but lately have gotten lazy. These days, I just pay the mechanic at the local garage to do it. And it's a real, live professional mechanic who does it, and not some high-school kid who might have his mind on other things like sexting and such.
A reader, not a follower. I form my own opinions by test driving as many cars as I can. I use them as a resource, though, sure.
I'm aware of the issues with the Focus, and the Fiesta too. A co-worker had her whole trans replaced on a Fiesta, but Ford did give her a 7/100 warranty and it's been OK since.
The Fusion looks more like an Explorer inside than a Focus/Fiesta, though.
Let's see how their transmissions do with the new EcoBoost powertrains.
A few years ago, the Ford dealer serviced the trans on my Expedition. For months afterwards I'd occasionally hear a rattle that sounded like a bad heat shield over the exhaust. I finally looked underneath and found a Snap-on LED flashlight sitting on top of a heat shield next to the transmission. It was quite damaged from the heat, but it still worked.
I also had a marina leave the oil fill/dipstick unscrewed on the outdrive of my boat. Thankfully I checked it before putting it in the water or I would have had a drive with water in the oil.
Compare the costs of extending whatever factory warranty a car has to the same threshold, maybe 7/100k bumper-to-bumper.
That levels the playing field.
You don't necessarily find the cars with already-longer warranties cost less to get up to that same threshold. The companies that sell warranties must be researching out-of-warranty repair costs, so for me that would be more significant than debating the length of whatever factory warranty.
Would be fun to see prices from the same 3rd party warranty re-seller for the Malibu, Fusion, Altima, Sonata, Passat, etc.
We can talk all we want, but these guys put their money where their mouth is.
I haven't read that Ford will be using the dual clutch trans (powershift) trans that's used in the Fiesta and Focus in the new Fusion. I read they will be using the 6speed auto which I believe will be a conventional auto, it's rated to handle the torque of the ecoboost 4cylinders.
:sick:
They do have several new engines, though, right? At least new here in the US. So a little v1.0 in there.
I'd risk that over a made-in-China eAssist unit.
That’s the most pathetic answer that I’ve ever heard. In my case all the wizard had to do was look at the filler cap. It clearly says 5W20. The manufacture went through the work of taking the guess work out of it for these nitwits but that ain’t enough for some I guess. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
My local shop did that to my Expedition during my last OC. It calls for 5/20 and on the receipt is shows 5w30. I'm not worried about it. But it is irritating.
Who says you can't get something for nothing nowadays!
Lol...
Even then, I suspect these companies "equalize" the offers, so that the price offered on all of the models is the same, given how the cars are equipped (NAV .vs. no NAV as an example)... Just as long as the MSRP is relatively the same.
Since these things are often pushed by "boiler room" sales organizations, equalizing the pricing makes it much easier to push, since the sales personnel really aren't "into" the product they are selling.
Still, I'd like to see the results...
"Read the oil cap, dude!"
"Uh...we don't have any 710 weight oil in stock right now."
"Read?!?"
"If I could read, I'd still be in school, instead of working at this joint!"
'08-'13 cars for sale including dealers
Impala 205 one every 10 sq miles
Fusion 128 one every 15 sq miles
Accord 121
Malibu 116
Chevy 1500 113
F-150 109
Dodge RAM 50
Impala for sale by owner 0
Accord FSBO 0
Fusion fsbo 1
GM's warranty seems good enough to get GM to remain #1 in sales. If other warranties are so much better, why are sales not topping the chart?
"Uh...we don't have any 710 weight oil in stock right now."
GM is putting their adveritising behind excellent automotive shows. The Autoweek weekly show is on Direct TV channel Velocity and features excellent, outstanding reporting by their Courtney Hansen. Do NOT miss her features and reporting. You will not be disappointed.
'08-'13 cars for sale including dealers
Impala 205 one every 10 sq miles
Fusion 128 one every 15 sq miles
Accord 121
Malibu 116
Considering the Accord has higher retail sales (non fleet sales) of any vehicle on that list it looks like Accord owners don't want to give them up.
GM's warranty seems good enough to get GM to remain #1 in sales. If other warranties are so much better, why are sales not topping the chart?
Do you really believe that? GM was number one in sales when they didn't have the best warranty. GM sale have improved for a few reasons. The warranty might have some effect, but it's mainly due to having more competitive products.
The Cruze, Corolla and Civic all sold in similar numbers for 2011.
On Autotrader there are 1,206 used 2011 Corollas vs 1,512 2011 Civics and 5,301 used Cruzes. That's quite a difference. I don't think the 2011 Civic was available at the beginning of the year. But still, there are twice as many used Cruzes on the market than Civics and Corollas combined. Seems like the superior warranty didn't seem to keep them from being dumped so quick.
2011 Honda CRV 729 total vs 2011 'Nox 2,363. Sure seems like GM vehicles find their way to the used market pretty quick.
You still don't get it do you? GM is not #1 because of their OWN effort, marketing, product, warranty or anything else! They are not in the garbage-bin like Saab, because the U.S. taxpayer has given them so much $$$ that they can afford to give rebates, give bonuses to their workers, and go to auto shows.
If the U.S. government gives me, you, or anyone else on this board a whole bunch of $$$, and then we don't have to pay income tax on our profits for years, all of us could run a #1 business in our area!
Any success GM has, can directly be tied to the welfare it received. GM should be very, very humble; not some arrogant welfare bum. :mad:
Even though General Motors (GM, Fortune 500)' headquarters is in downtown Detroit, the automaker doesn't even rank among the city's top 10 largest employers. Chrysler Group, the sole auto company in the top 10, operates the only assembly line inside city limits.
So Detroit has seen little benefit from the auto industry's return to profitability.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/18/news/economy/detroit_bankruptcy/index.htm?iid=HP- _LN
Yes, here is the garbage-bin nose dive REALITY!
So, therefore, it's really good that GM is #1 in sales, right?
Regards,
OW
Besides, why all this argument over which car is better or which company is better? If you have had good service from a brand, BUY it.
I've had excellent service from my GM brands, but I'm not going to come on here and demand that some Honda or Toyota owners see thing my way.
The numbers I posted were total cars listed. It wasn't based on my area. I used unlimited miles from my house.
Besides, why all this argument over which car is better or which company is better? If you have had good service from a brand, BUY it.
True, but it would make for a boring forum;)
"Metro Detroit moved sharply higher in an index of economic growth last year in a worldwide ranking of big-city regions -- thanks to the rebounding domestic auto industry.
The Global MetroMonitor report, released today by the nonprofit Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C., ranked metro Detroit 9th for its 2011 performance among 57 U.S. metro regions studied in the report."
As auto industry rebounds, metro Detroit sees economic gains (Detroit Free Press)
As recently as a decade ago, the industry employed about 1 million workers. It then fell into a steady decline that included layoffs of 200,000 workers during the recession. At the low, about 550,000 workers were employed in auto manufacturing.
Hiring started to climb back slowly over the last two years. Now, the research center forecasts employment will top 750,000 in 2015.
One factor is that overseas automakers plan to add factories in the U.S., Lindland said.
Audi executives said they will build a U.S. factory, possibly at the Volkswagen complex in Chattanooga, Tenn.
Nissan also is adding about 1,000 workers in Tennessee as it gears up for production of the Leaf electric vehicle and its batteries, as well as new Pathfinder and Infiniti SUVs.
South Korean automotive siblings Hyundai and Kia also are said to be considering a major expansion in the South.
Automotive employment growth represents a small but important segment of the U.S. economy, said Beth Ann Bovino, senior economist at Standard & Poor's.
"Putting money in people's pockets is good," Bovino said. The comparatively high blue-collar wages offered in the auto factories allow "people to spend on high-ticket items" and generate more economic activity, she said.
But the small size of the auto manufacturing sector — and even manufacturing overall — dampens the effect, she said.
"Manufacturing has shrunk so much. It used to be above 30% of total employment in the mid-1960s, and it has dropped to about 8%," she said.
The hiring binge comes as sales continue to rebound and firms increase the output of U.S. factories to avoid currency troubles overseas.
Regards,
OW