This is the same tired, old argument that keeps getting rehashed. Believe it or not, not all domestic brands are built in Mexico or Canada and not all imports are made in the U.S.
So then perhaps your phrase "domestic branding" should be replace by "domestically manufactured"? Then we can agree to exclude the Japanese Toyotas, Korean Hyundais, and Mexican and Canadian Fords and GMs.
I see that VW stuck to 6 volts through the 1966 model year. This means my girlfriend's folks had two 6 volt cars back then - a bug and a Karmann Ghia...
You are correct; my first car was a used '66 Bug which was 6v. The 1967 bugs were 12v. You don't even want to know the quirks I put up with on that 6v system....
But the difference, according to CR, wasn't in engine or interior hardware. It's OK to admit that there will be sample error. Most likely even the employees on the line did not change.
UPDATE: I think Andre sums it up well, as usual!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
With hindsight, do you think the Omni/Horizon turned out to be phenomenal cars, like Motor Trend predicted, or would you side with Consumer Reports?
All I know is this, I'd get them for rental cars right up 'til the end, ten years later. I never noticed any handling weirdness compared to any of the many other cars I drove then. They struck me as peppy, cheap-to-buy, and practical. I much-preferred them over whatever variation K-car I'd get other times.
My best-man was a Chrysler zone rep at the time. He said the worst thing about the cars in the latter years were that the dies were wearing out, which meant they were getting more wind-and-water-leak complaints. BTW, I thought it was interesting that he said AMC built Fifth Avenues better in Kenosha than Chrysler had built them previously.
CR's magazine cover then drew criticism for being cheesy. Hey, they gotta sell issues too I guess.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Here's a story about how the government is playing favorites - spending billions and billions of $'s of our taxpayer $ to support 1 company, at the detriment of others.
from the article: "We're pro-Boeing; we're in support of the president's initiative to double exports but we're concerned with any market distortion that creates an unleveled playing field," Lott said.
In the past decade, the bank has provided more than $52 billion in loan guarantees to buy Boeing aircraft, Airlines for America says.
You could insert "GM", or "Chrysler" into that sentence above, for many of us. Or for that matter "ethanol farmers and producers", "banks, Wall Street and insurance companies".
I have 2 simple economic rules to suggest to our Leaders: 1) allow companies to fail or succeed. Then we'll have the most efficient and best methods , companies, people, and business executives. 2) if foreign countries want to subsidize their industries and such, don't do business with them. We set the rules, not Korea, the EU, or Japan. If any of those foreign countries don't like it, we have the ace-in-the-hole: we protect them. If we said we're no longer protecting S. Korea from the North, or Japan from Chinese expansion, or Germany from Russia, they'll be willing to negotiate, and come around to our way of thinking.
My Subie is 5 years old and has about 77k miles on it and still has the original battery... On my 5th New England winter with it and there is still no signs of dying.
So far it's been O/C's, gas and one set of tires at 65k. :shades:
All I know is this, I'd get them for rental cars right up 'til the end, ten years later. I never noticed any handling weirdness compared to any of the many other cars I drove then.
I remember Consumer Reports testing a few mid-priced cars (LeSabre, Newport, Monterrey, etc) around 1965, and one of them tended to lock up a rear wheel on braking, and lose control. They did rate the car lower because of that, but didn't sensationalize it like they did the Omni/Horizon, though.
But, back then, maybe their test drivers were more skilled? I think cars from the late 70's and newer have tended to dumb drivers down. But then, I'm sure people who were accustomed to Model A's and such thought those newfangled Hydra-Matics were dumbing down the masses, as well, back in the old days.
My '67 Catalina used to lock up one of its back wheels every once in awhile in hard braking. It could be a bit scary at first, but I just learned how to deal with it. Should've gotten it fixed right away but instead, I adapted my driving habits, knew it had a tendency to lock up, and reacted accordingly. And, eventually, I did get it fixed! :P
I posted a video from '69 of a test of a new Impala and one wheel locked pretty dramatically. I thought it was a cool video but it drew I believe one response--over in the "I spotted..." section, maybe a week ago.
I don't remember any of my Studes locking up a wheel, but when the wheel cylinders would get old (I don't think anybody before me ever bothered changing those), they'd sure pull to one side.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
He said the worst thing about the cars in the latter years were that the dies were wearing out, which meant they were getting more wind-and-water-leak complaints
It's OK to admit that there will be sample error. Most likely even the employees on the line did not change.
I've agreed with you about sample error. But I still believe it's possible for other variables to pop up. We don't know for sure.
For the 3 years the HHR was built, no one retired, called off or took a vacation or had a bad day? I know that's digging and is a stretch, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Why did some Cruzes get recalled over a possible loose steering wheel or the Sonic for possible missing brake pads. Crap happens and people and processes still make mistakes.
wasn't in engine or interior hardware.
I just checked, and every year those areas weren't ranked the same. The only areas that stayed constant were engine minor, transmission major, and exhaust. Other that those categories, most categories changed from year to year.
CR was also critical of popular Subaru models (Outback) for having the tendency to get the tail loose in their avoidance maneuver. They whined and whined until Subaru made stability control standard.
You gotta take CR for what it's worth ... that handling trait is precisely what makes them fun, if you're a skilled driver.
For the average Joe, stability control is good, but give the rest of us an Off switch, please.
I seem to remember the one Cruze with the steering wheel that fell off had been sent to the repair shop for another steering issue and that 'repairman' at the plant had reinstalled the wheel wrong. I might not have all the issues correct there. Too lazy to check and I'm supposed to be working.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Had lunch with my sis yesterday, and she pulls up in a new ... Malibu!
The outgoing model, though, not the a 2012.
Silver paint, cloth seats, two-tone interior (my favorite feature on those), alloy wheels. Probably a 4 banger but we didn't have time to pop the hood.
Interior was light beige and tan. Isn't there a darker two-tone, mocha and chocolate? I like that better.
Shortages, pricing screw-ups, unwanted products, unintended adverse consequences, and micromanagement of citizens' private lives used to be confined to the old communist bloc. No longer.
Filled the '10 Malibu and got 29.97 from the tank. The DIC said 29.2. the next day gas jumped to 3.68. Searched Autotrader for Impalas within 100 miles for sale privately. 2009, 10, 11, and '12 models were included. 2 were for sale. An '09 LS with 69k miles for $10,900 and a 2012 LTZ with 3k miles for $21 something.
Maybe the UN should take up the issue, doing something useful for once. :P
If I were elected president, and I might have a shot seeing the quality of most of the candidates and their luke-warm support, I would ban the landing of any foreign subsidized aircraft or airlines at U.S. airports after 30 days, unless these countries agreed to stop the subsidies. Boeing's U.S. would be shutdown, and the loans repaid. Korea, Japan, and Europe could also turn around their ships loaded with vehicles.
Any country that didn't like it, is on their own militarily. No U.S. nuclear umbrella, no aircraft carriers groups to the rescue.
Sure these actions might hurt the economy, but we'd be hurt far less than these countries who need us as a customer.
The U.S. is the 600 LB gorilla and should dictate a fair competitive world. Then we would have no excuse to bailout auto and other industries, who might as well pilfer their coffers and take extreme risks. If a company knows it will get bailed out because it is too-big-to-fail, why wouldn't you have high salaries, good benefits, bonuses, and take wild risks? If you Fail you still Win; if wild risks succeed then you succeed more. It's like being at a Craps Table where bad-rolls they don't take your chips, but on good-rolls you do get paid. Just don't forget to lobby the Pit-Boss.
I do find it amusing that it is only a crime when we help our own manufacturing concerns, yet nobody in power will touch any idea of leveling the playing field. It works both ways.
I seem to remember the one Cruze with the steering wheel that fell off had been sent to the repair shop for another steering issue and that 'repairman' at the plant had reinstalled the wheel wrong.
Still, if that happened to be your Cruze, you don't care what caused the problem, only that it was a problem. Whether it's the manufacturers fault or the dealers fault or whomever. Those types of things happen.
My basic opinion of CU is that it generally gives an idea of problem areas. I've yet to own a perfect vehicle, every one has had some type of issue in one of the areas CU reports. Generally, when I compare my ownership experience with the CU results, the areas where I have had problems are represented in CUs data.
Even my Pathfinder which probably was the best vehicle I've owned still had a few repairs from new to 60k miles. The CD changer died at 40k miles which was a known problem and is represented in CU's data with a black circle for sound system. I had two o2 sensors go out and engine minor was rated average. AT 61k when I turned it in (lease) the exhaust pipe broke where it leaves the back of the muffler. CU gave the exhaust system a black dot.
No question there is sample error. I don't think you can avoid it with any owner survey. The only way to solve it is to get each manufacturers service/warranty data and that's not going to happen.
Plus, I think the idea that CU subscribers are a bunch of import loving Birkenstock wearing hippies is ridiculous.
No question there is sample error. I don't think you can avoid it with any owner survey. The only way to solve it is to get each manufacturers service/warranty data and that's not going to happen.
Very true. Something no one has touched on here--is, can CR rely on non-car guys (unlike us here, we'll agree on that!) to report exactly what went wrong, as opposed to 'there was an engine problem' or 'a thingy in the steering was broken'?!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
can CR rely on non-car guys (unlike us here, we'll agree on that!) to report exactly what went wrong, as opposed to 'there was an engine problem' or 'a thingy in the steering was broken'?!
Suggestion for GM diehards. Forget about CR. Nobody is forcing you to buy or read it.
Instead, simply go to your GM dealership and ask your salesperson to give you all info on features, quality, reliability, etc. , look at and examine vehicle of interest, test drive it, then come back and sign on dotted line. Trust implicitly in your salesperson. No need for CR, Edmunds, etc.
Also, maybe seek out the sales guy at the dealership who looks like Santa Claus. This guy will probably REALLY take care of you.
I can't rely on a car salesperson to know as much about the product as I do by the time I walk in there! Seems like they're here and gone in no time flat.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I heard sometime back that Mercedes was going to introduce 43-volt electrical systems to deal with all the electronic do-dads now on modern cars. Don't know what developed.
Infiniti was always something of an also-ran to Lexus. They kind of blew it coming out of the gate with their silly "rocks and trees" ads that failed to show the cars. Then, they went through this ten-year period when they were pretty much anonymous. The Q45 became such a rare bird you'd be more likely to encounter a T-Rex. They started becoming noticed with the M45 and the G35 and such, but they now seem to again be receding into the background.
That's cool, Lemko. I remember seeing an overhead view of it a year or two ago where you could see where the 2.5 mile track was, and they were building houses there. Studebaker buffs are lucky in that the Proving Ground (singular) property outside of South Bend is virtually unchanged. The 'mansion' or 'clubhouse' (I've seen it referred as both) is still there--it's where president Sherwood Egbert and his family lived in the early '60's-- as are the big wrought-iron gates, and the various garage buildings. Once you're inside, the big "S" in the capstones are still there...the ones that face Route 2, have been covered over. I've seen VW products being tested there when I've been there before. It's a 3-mile oval.
The Stude Administration Building in downton South Bend is largely unchanged inside. I know the Packard office building on E. Grand hasn't seen the same fate. It was scary when I was there in the late '80's, and I can't believe it's much better now, sadly.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I now see that that was your point...you can't rely on a salesperson.
I look online, but I tend to also talk to people and trust my personal past experiences with the make and dealer.
CR is OK, but it always cracks me up that people treat it like the Bible. Wonder what those '71 Vega owners felt a few years down the road who said, "CR said it's reliable, let's buy one!".
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I've watched motor week since I was a kid. I bet they've been on for 30 years. I dvr the episodes on PBS I think. I'll watch a few episodes at a time and skip the commercials.
The fact that stuff like that makes it to the radio is bizarre, must be like living on another planet. Oh well, at least they buy lots of GM fleet cars, although who knows if a profit is made.
I remember getting Encores and Alliances as rental cars around beautiful Newark, NJ. Truly the worst rentals I got at that time...un-Godly slow acceleration. One Encore I had, upon opening the rear hatch, the right prop rod was laying in the channel on that side. I also hated any K-car variant rental at the time.
"The One to Watch", indeed.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Comments
So then perhaps your phrase "domestic branding" should be replace by "domestically manufactured"? Then we can agree to exclude the Japanese Toyotas, Korean Hyundais, and Mexican and Canadian Fords and GMs.
In 1978 the Rabbit was out as well.
You are correct; my first car was a used '66 Bug which was 6v. The 1967 bugs were 12v. You don't even want to know the quirks I put up with on that 6v system....
UPDATE: I think Andre sums it up well, as usual!
All I know is this, I'd get them for rental cars right up 'til the end, ten years later. I never noticed any handling weirdness compared to any of the many other cars I drove then. They struck me as peppy, cheap-to-buy, and practical. I much-preferred them over whatever variation K-car I'd get other times.
My best-man was a Chrysler zone rep at the time. He said the worst thing about the cars in the latter years were that the dies were wearing out, which meant they were getting more wind-and-water-leak complaints. BTW, I thought it was interesting that he said AMC built Fifth Avenues better in Kenosha than Chrysler had built them previously.
CR's magazine cover then drew criticism for being cheesy. Hey, they gotta sell issues too I guess.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-01-11/export-import-bank-repu- blicans-airlines/52523426/1
from the article: "We're pro-Boeing; we're in support of the president's initiative to double exports but we're concerned with any market distortion that creates an unleveled playing field," Lott said.
In the past decade, the bank has provided more than $52 billion in loan guarantees to buy Boeing aircraft, Airlines for America says.
You could insert "GM", or "Chrysler" into that sentence above, for many of us. Or for that matter "ethanol farmers and producers", "banks, Wall Street and insurance companies".
I have 2 simple economic rules to suggest to our Leaders:
1) allow companies to fail or succeed. Then we'll have the most efficient and best methods , companies, people, and business executives.
2) if foreign countries want to subsidize their industries and such, don't do business with them. We set the rules, not Korea, the EU, or Japan. If any of those foreign countries don't like it, we have the ace-in-the-hole: we protect them. If we said we're no longer protecting S. Korea from the North, or Japan from Chinese expansion, or Germany from Russia, they'll be willing to negotiate, and come around to our way of thinking.
My Subie is 5 years old and has about 77k miles on it and still has the original battery... On my 5th New England winter with it and there is still no signs of dying.
So far it's been O/C's, gas and one set of tires at 65k. :shades:
I remember Consumer Reports testing a few mid-priced cars (LeSabre, Newport, Monterrey, etc) around 1965, and one of them tended to lock up a rear wheel on braking, and lose control. They did rate the car lower because of that, but didn't sensationalize it like they did the Omni/Horizon, though.
But, back then, maybe their test drivers were more skilled? I think cars from the late 70's and newer have tended to dumb drivers down. But then, I'm sure people who were accustomed to Model A's and such thought those newfangled Hydra-Matics were dumbing down the masses, as well, back in the old days.
My '67 Catalina used to lock up one of its back wheels every once in awhile in hard braking. It could be a bit scary at first, but I just learned how to deal with it. Should've gotten it fixed right away
I don't remember any of my Studes locking up a wheel, but when the wheel cylinders would get old (I don't think anybody before me ever bothered changing those), they'd sure pull to one side.
Lobbyist capital of the world, though I'm not in that industry at all, just work near them. I guess if I was I would not be stuck driving a minivan.
To be fair, isn't that the AMG demographic? Buying new, I mean.
Either that or they are chauffeur-driven.
Nowadays they sell those old dies to China.
Edit: this TOTALLY deserves a pic:
http://images.theage.com.au/2010/04/22/1372258/copyCat1_600-600x400.jpg
Maybe they are leveling the playing field...
I've agreed with you about sample error. But I still believe it's possible for other variables to pop up. We don't know for sure.
For the 3 years the HHR was built, no one retired, called off or took a vacation or had a bad day? I know that's digging and is a stretch, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Why did some Cruzes get recalled over a possible loose steering wheel or the Sonic for possible missing brake pads. Crap happens and people and processes still make mistakes.
wasn't in engine or interior hardware.
I just checked, and every year those areas weren't ranked the same. The only areas that stayed constant were engine minor, transmission major, and exhaust. Other that those categories, most categories changed from year to year.
You gotta take CR for what it's worth ... that handling trait is precisely what makes them fun, if you're a skilled driver.
For the average Joe, stability control is good, but give the rest of us an Off switch, please.
The outgoing model, though, not the a 2012.
Silver paint, cloth seats, two-tone interior (my favorite feature on those), alloy wheels. Probably a 4 banger but we didn't have time to pop the hood.
Interior was light beige and tan. Isn't there a darker two-tone, mocha and chocolate? I like that better.
I'll try to check it out more closely next time.
Filled the '10 Malibu and got 29.97 from the tank. The DIC said 29.2. the next day gas jumped to 3.68.
Searched Autotrader for Impalas within 100 miles for sale privately. 2009, 10, 11, and '12 models were included. 2 were for sale. An '09 LS with 69k miles for $10,900 and a 2012 LTZ with 3k miles for $21 something.
Why isn't anybody selling theirs?
AMG demographic around here, when new anyway, seems to be old boomer businessmen cashing out while they can, or sketchy newly arrived wealth.
If I were elected president, and I might have a shot seeing the quality of most of the candidates and their luke-warm support, I would ban the landing of any foreign subsidized aircraft or airlines at U.S. airports after 30 days, unless these countries agreed to stop the subsidies. Boeing's U.S. would be shutdown, and the loans repaid. Korea, Japan, and Europe could also turn around their ships loaded with vehicles.
Any country that didn't like it, is on their own militarily. No U.S. nuclear umbrella, no aircraft carriers groups to the rescue.
Sure these actions might hurt the economy, but we'd be hurt far less than these countries who need us as a customer.
The U.S. is the 600 LB gorilla and should dictate a fair competitive world. Then we would have no excuse to bailout auto and other industries, who might as well pilfer their coffers and take extreme risks. If a company knows it will get bailed out because it is too-big-to-fail, why wouldn't you have high salaries, good benefits, bonuses, and take wild risks? If you Fail you still Win; if wild risks succeed then you succeed more. It's like being at a Craps Table where bad-rolls they don't take your chips, but on good-rolls you do get paid. Just don't forget to lobby the Pit-Boss.
I do find it amusing that it is only a crime when we help our own manufacturing concerns, yet nobody in power will touch any idea of leveling the playing field. It works both ways.
Nice Chinese copycars too.
Still, if that happened to be your Cruze, you don't care what caused the problem, only that it was a problem. Whether it's the manufacturers fault or the dealers fault or whomever. Those types of things happen.
My basic opinion of CU is that it generally gives an idea of problem areas.
I've yet to own a perfect vehicle, every one has had some type of issue in one of the areas CU reports. Generally, when I compare my ownership experience with the CU results, the areas where I have had problems are represented in CUs data.
Even my Pathfinder which probably was the best vehicle I've owned still had a few repairs from new to 60k miles. The CD changer died at 40k miles which was a known problem and is represented in CU's data with a black circle for sound system. I had two o2 sensors go out and engine minor was rated average. AT 61k when I turned it in (lease) the exhaust pipe broke where it leaves the back of the muffler. CU gave the exhaust system a black dot.
No question there is sample error. I don't think you can avoid it with any owner survey. The only way to solve it is to get each manufacturers service/warranty data and that's not going to happen.
Plus, I think the idea that CU subscribers are a bunch of import loving Birkenstock wearing hippies is ridiculous.
Very true. Something no one has touched on here--is, can CR rely on non-car guys (unlike us here, we'll agree on that!) to report exactly what went wrong, as opposed to 'there was an engine problem' or 'a thingy in the steering was broken'?!
Because few buy new retail Impalas. 70% are bought by fleets then are sold through auctions and end up on used car lots.
I did just selected used 09-11 within 25 miles of my house and 50 Impalas came up. And I don't live in a densely populated area.
Bragger! I tip my hat to you on this one.
Company A: Our satellite is awesome and doesn't take US government money!
Company B: They suck, they take other government's money, plus jobs go overseas!
Company C: They all lie! A and B are crooks, give us the contract! We can see Russia from our house!
If you suggest a car and they don't like it ... it's gonna be a looong winter!
I was watching motorweek the other day and they said over 60% of new vehicle sales are decided by women.
Suggestion for GM diehards. Forget about CR. Nobody is forcing you to buy or read it.
Instead, simply go to your GM dealership and ask your salesperson to give you all info on features, quality, reliability, etc. , look at and examine vehicle of interest, test drive it, then come back and sign on dotted line. Trust implicitly in your salesperson. No need for CR, Edmunds, etc.
Also, maybe seek out the sales guy at the dealership who looks like Santa Claus. This guy will probably REALLY take care of you.
Also watch autoweek on the same cable channel with name starting with "V". Last Tuesday's episode was fantastic.
The Stude Administration Building in downton South Bend is largely unchanged inside. I know the Packard office building on E. Grand hasn't seen the same fate. It was scary when I was there in the late '80's, and I can't believe it's much better now, sadly.
I look online, but I tend to also talk to people and trust my personal past experiences with the make and dealer.
CR is OK, but it always cracks me up that people treat it like the Bible. Wonder what those '71 Vega owners felt a few years down the road who said, "CR said it's reliable, let's buy one!".
Unintentionally.
That's not really fair...
First off, it was a forecast. I bet other Chevy models at the time were reliable, so they gave them the benefit of the doubt.
Also, it was a forecast, an educated guess.
Just how bad it was surprised every one.
I like the Encore name better, in fact Opel Encore had a nice ring to it.
"The One to Watch", indeed.
A used one. I eased her into it.
Once she put the whip down, I got a new one.