This is REALLY comical: In what The New York Times called a "rare" instance of a company executive expressing frustration with government ownership, Akerson told the newspaper he believes GM has become "a political football." He says he has not gotten a clear message from the Treasury about when it will sell its remaining 26% stake in the automaker.
Akerson argues the Obama Administration doesn't want to sell GM shares at current prices, because it would result in a multi-billion dollar loss, possibly hurting Obama's image in an election year.
Meanwhile, the taint of government ownership is affecting everything from sales of new vehicles to hiring to the ability of top executives to use a corporate jet to fly to remote locations in China.
Now I know why the news regarding Akerson's succession has been flying around. His days are numbered!
Here's the concern I have about the new Malibu. I think they reduced its dimensions and meaningful stats like legroom and trunk capacity a bit to differentiate it more from the upcoming new Impala. That is old timer thinking at GM that buyers will trade up from Malibu to Impala. A lot of the midsized competitors appear more spacious, so buyers will just move over to one of them. Personally, I like the looks of the upcoming Impala, but its a market niche that is dying off to crossovers. As much as I like some of the old land yachts, for the likely upcoming Impala price, I'd probably go with a Highlander or Traverse.
You completely missed the point in what Circle was stating.
It wasn't the brand of vehicle and it's sales, it was the market segment that was being compared.
Don't get hung up on the manufacturer, especially in which numbers aren't available.
Comparing Mustang sales to Camaro is fine if you want to compare the 2 models, and it's entirely possible that in Circle's comparison it might be more appropriate to lump Camaro, Mustang and Dodge Challenger sales for the comparison.
It can get a bit dicey doing such comparisons because of so many permutations possible, such as some potential sporty car buyers refusing to buy a Ford product, or willing to buy a Mustang but deciding to wait for the Camaro or Challenger to come to market (delayed purchases).
That's why these types of comparisons need to be closely examined before jumping to conclusions.
The old "vertical" way of marketing no longer applies, as most car buyers re-evaluate the brand each and every purchase, as compared to 30-40 years ago when a manufacturer got its "hooks" into the young buyer and kept him within the brand for a lifetime, starting with the lower priced/lower optioned vehicles, and them moving him up within the brand over the years... From Chevy Nova, to Malibu, to Impala to Caprice....then, maybe over to Buick, Pontiac or Cadillac.
I definitely remember Pontiac marketing was designed (within the dealer network) to move the Bonneville owner over to the Cadillac brand as the owner became more affluent. That was 50 years ago, though...
I always heard and read about GM's 'vertical integration' concept, but I honestly don't remember that happening in my hometown among our friends. Well, I will say my one Sunday School teacher (male with good job at the local railroad) bought a new Chevrolet Impala each year, and tried to trade his '65 for a Caprice once they came out but couldn't make a deal, and he subsequently bought Buick Electras, then later, Olds Toronados. However, most of the people we knew had Chevrolets for years on end, Pontiacs for years on end, Oldsmobiles for years on end, etc.
I believe people in our small town bought the dealer as much as the brand. Our GM dealers were Chevrolet-Cadillac, Pontiac, and Buick-Olds.
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I would have titled your post 'America dissapoints' The first mention of GM is that their first-quarter profit that surpassed forecasts after saying that America has questions about the strength of it's economy over the next 6 months.
The Kia and Elantra and Sonata are all very nice cars.
A 2012 Cruze 1LT has a TMV of 19,848. With Turbo and 6 spd auto. The Elantra GLS is TMV at 18,048. With $1200 of GM card earnings, I'd have to pay $600 more to get the Cruze with the Turbo. What if the stimulus created about 1/30 of a US job for each extra $600 spent? That would have been 50,000,000 jobs to build 30 cars per job. (Assumes $595440 worth of car sales equals a job for an auto worker and also assumes that at equal pricing Americans would chose American cars).
Well, you accurately described the vertical marketing I was describing.
"Chevrolets for years on end, Pontiac for years on end..."
They stayed within the brand and wouldn't consider buying outside the brand until/if they reached a higher income level bracket, and even then they stayed within the parent manufacturer.
Same thing happened where I grew up in South GA. One could accurately predict the next make car over 98% of the new car buyers were going to buy before they even thought about trading.
If the Bonneville owner was going to move up, you could bet it was to a Caddie. If the Ford owner was going to move up, you could all but guarantee it would be a Lincoln.
I'm sure some of it was due to dealer relationships, but that same buying model was passed onward to the next generation, even though the subsequent generations lived elsewhere and had different dealers.
Even with the "invasion" of the imports, I remember seeing the same process with Toyota. It was a Toyota family... 100%. Toyota still has occasional ads featuring such families.
Today, I can't think of a single friend that doesn't examine multiple brands and manufacturers when new car shopping. It's the car with the looks, options, price and availability that usually gets driven off the lot. Once and a while a longer warranty comes into play, but not often.
Bring the new Impala on! That's the kind of car I can see my wife and I getting next time. We're done with the minivan thing, and even though my wife thought she wanted an Equinox last year, after driving it and the Malibu, she herself liked the Malibu better (which was my hopes as the Equinox could not be had at the slightest 'deal' at that time, plus I don't like the looks of it).
Ironically, last week in Harrisburg with my three coworkers (37.7 mpg at 75-80 mph and a trunk full of luggage in my Cobalt), my boss had rented a mahogany-colored Avalon and I thought it was the best-looking (least 'Asian' looking; not 'insectoid') Japanese car I'd seen in awhile and the interior looked inviting.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Our local Chev/Caddy dealer back home (one family owned for 55 years), ran a newspaper ad one time that had "Cadillac" written about two inches about "Chevrolet", and in between, the ad copy read, "There's really nothing in-between". What a slam at the local Pontiac and Buick-Olds dealers!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I still think they should offer a column shift with fold-down center armrest, but with the shape of that instrument panel, I'm quite certain that won't happen!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Well in order for the Corvette to drive showroom traffic there has to be at least 1 Corvette on the lot. What I find is that most dealers don't have a Corvette sitting on the showroom floors. Why? Because so few are made during the year, there really aren't many at any one time that are unsold, relative to the number of dealers. And as I've seen thru web searches it seems there are some major Corvette dealers in each area of the country. So, these major Corvette dealers actually make the chance of walking into your small city Chevy dealer and finding a Corvette there.
Dollar-for-dollar, I'd buy a used Corvette before springing a new Camaro.
And no offense to you, but dopey to you, sensible to a lot of others. My guess is that you have not so much as sat in a Malibu. I own one, we love it, and I have driven comparable vehicles.
Well, I did sit in one at the auto show, and I did rent and drive a G6 based upon the same platform. And I have also owned cars from US, German, and Japanese manufacurers. I could argue that people who haven't owned many makes can't really talk about what makes are better, or worse. Individuals who criticize other makes without a variety of experiences with those makes seems pretty dopey to me, but to each his own.
It is priced so much less than other cars, that it's a great value--the 2012--which is no doubt why AOL Autos called it just a few weeks ago 'the best value in America'.
Of course, that's all lost on you.
I agree with your comments on value. It's obvious that you can't accurately discuss what is "lost on me" given that I agree with your comments. There's no reason to criticize points of view, as the facts that I posted are just that, facts. I know you don't care if a car sells well or not (per previous posts), but if we are looking for the survival and success of GM (which I assume might be the case for those posting here), it's not looking to me that GM is extremely strong, and the market share numbers seem to bear that out.
I agree with you in that it's difficult to effectively evaluate car makes unless you have actually gone through the ownership experience.
Also, I agree that the term "best value" suffers from the interpretation of the describing individual.
Living very close to the BMW plant, I know several employees that are originally from Germany and have transferred here, for various time periods. What sticks in my mind is a conversation I had a couple of years ago with one of them.
He was joking that, in selling the features of a car to a prospective buyer, the seller could demonstrate a car with the ability to go 100 mpg, withstand a head on collision with a 100 mph freight train, and go 100,000 miles between oil changes, yet many American buyers would ask how many cup-holders were in the car...
Indeed, the cup-holder issue has been a tough one for all German manufacturers to grasp, but it does clearly demonstrate the different ways "value" can be defined.
I suspect Kia and Hyundai vehicles are pretty good values, but I've never owned one, so all I can do is guess. I do know that if you paid $50,000 for a car that sells for $100,000, and the car isn't what you like or wanted, then it isn't much of a value to you.
Wow. I got 37mpg with 4 in the car and 75-80mph in my SX. Trunk full of luggage, cooler and all! Went to Harrisongurg, VA and back. Passed a ton of Malibus like they had boulders in their trunk.
if we are looking for the survival and success of GM (which I assume might be the case for those posting here), it's not looking to me that GM is extremely strong, and the market share numbers seem to bear that out.
Too big to fail has it's upsides and downsides. It all ain't "smellin' like roses" at the moment. Size slows progress and GM is not growing.
Some can see this others look away for that "Old Time Feelin'". Ain't gonna happen.
GM had it's day in the sun. They blew it. They are still the biggest but hardly the best. Time to go to 2 divisions and admit the 4 just bleeds when even greater focus is needed.
Chevy Caddy. Period. ....or get in line for another bailout. :shades:
What I find is that most dealers don't have a Corvette sitting on the showroom floors
Well, that didn't occur to me. But I've never been one to visit showrooms for the fun of it. I suppose some people go to Chevy.com to check out Vettes and wind up pricing Camaros when they figure out what their payment is going to be. Or they'll admire one on the street and decide on something else instead of ordering one, when they realize the low supply.
> people who haven't owned many makes can't really talk about what makes are better, or worse. Individuals who criticize other makes without a variety of experiences with those makes
You can't argue what other people "know" based on their experiences. Those are their experiences and opinions. They may have owned, ridden in, experienced more vehicles than you think, as well.
That reminds me - tomorrow's Mon. and I have got to go to work. That's the way my managers think - always quick with an answer, even if it is a stretch like Mr. Fantastic (Fantastic 4).
Often it doesn't matter what the answer is, just so long as you make a quick decision. The faster you screw up the faster you'll be able to backpedal or shift blame. And for the 50% of the time you're right, you're golden. :shades:
I've driven a G6. It may be similar underneath, but I think the driving experience, seating position, controls, etc., were nothing like a Malibu. I do believe the Saturn Aura is more similar.
I know it wasn't you who said it, but "Go Kia!" is ridiculous to me. His Korean-built auto, by a Korean company...wow, let's root for that. Sheesh.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
The EX Turbo and SX get a 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder that produces 274 hp and 269 lb-ft of torque. These Optima Turbo models returned a quick 0-60-mph time of 6.5 seconds, along with an EPA-estimated fuel economy of 22/34/26.
It's rated 34 and I get 37 on long highway trips every time. :shades:
The ownership experience is the best thing to base an opinion on, of course, but one gets opinions also based on repeated, recent rental car experience.
I find that it is routine that people with absolute opinions on cars most often base them solely on what they've read in (fill in the blank) magazine, and not on ownership or rental experiences.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
You can't argue what other people "know" based on their experiences. Those are their experiences and opinions. They may have owned, ridden in, experienced more vehicles than you think, as well.
No doubt. But certainly the experience of renting, or driving a friend's car, is not the same as owning a vehicle for a number of years, which is the point that I was making.
How many times have all of us test-driven a car (new or used), decided it was appealing, decided to buy it, and inevitably while we might still like it, we find certain characteristics that annoy us, or could be much better - characteristics that we didn't notice upon a more superficial examination?
Oh I have no problem with immigration, it just needs to be somewhat selective. Some places haven't been very selective, and are going to be a firestorm in due time. Some crying about Switzerland and Japan isn't very informed IMNSHO...especially as Cameron, Sarko, and Merkel have all declared the multicultural ideals of their respective nations to have failed.
We need more population to pay for SS to keep boomer entitlements coming, so they can buy GM cars into their sunset years :shades:
We need more population to pay for SS to keep boomer entitlements coming, so they can buy GM cars into their sunset years.
I sure don't care if they buy GM rigs I just want them to pay for their Social Security so it is there for me when I retire. That's all.
And I'll buy another Mitsubishi, not a Dodge, not a GM, not a Ford. I'll buy another Japanese-built Mitsubishi product. I love my wife and I's 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS more today than the day we bought it. That day was March 21, 2007. It's motor, HVAC, transmission, stereo and electronics, seats, steering, handling and ride and interior and exterior look and feel are just plain fantastic. I can't imagine a better compact car than this.
So I won't. Rock to some stellar Foghat, Tragically Hip, Guess Who, Drive-By Truckers and Robin Trower right now. Don't wait and please...don't delay.
The tires are 35 psi, cruise control used and the mileage is strictly highway. Over 300 miles highway in top gear. Avg for the trip with about 5% local miles is 34 mpg.
I typically get 23 mpg around town, no highway in Eco mode.
I wouldn't even look at a Kia in 2008. Funny how the competition keeps sneaking up for GM. How'd that happen?
Cobalt = 2,730 lbs. Optima SX = 3,450
Cobalt = yesterday technology, good economy, low aesthetics.
The Malibu will catch up to the Optima by the fall in engine technology. Sadly, bankruptcy stunted GM quite a bit.
Here's a little blip about the Cobalt back in 2008:
The opinions of those who desperately want to believe in something are exceptionally malleable. How else to explain GM fans' short-term memory loss re: the Cobalt's already-broken promises? And now, once again, the Next Big– I mean, small thing are dangled before them..
When the Chevrolet Cruze arrives in 2011, it'll no doubt compare well with the generations of Civic and Corolla on sale during its gestation, just as the Cobalt did in 2005.
This is the other shot they had, once again with either the outdoorsy background or a plain beige backdrop. Again, this is the \"Sport\" model, not the LS.But will the General fail to lead a moving target, benchmarking rivals that already have one foot in the grave? "Time will tell," the faithful grumble. Trouble is, time's told this tale before.
When a blog-writer (gee, guess I can be one, too!) writes within two lines about the "GM Kool-Aid club", objectivity wouldn't be in question, would it? That's a lame link for sure.
I am as convinced today as I was in 2008 that I bought the best-all-around car for me that my $9,900 would buy, and it actually helped people who live around me too. As I've said, there's no bad in any of that.
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>GM Kool-Aid club", objectivity wouldn't be in question
At first, I thought you were linking from one of many posts in this forum! :sick:
The arrogant, one-sidedness of many bloggers, "experts," car fan mags, etc. so often talk up their favorite perfect car and rag everything else as lesser. Right now that would have to be the BMWs. It's the pipers leading the followers to the cliff.
The idea that someone who owns a car and drives it everyday doesn't know anything about it and can't evaluate it because they don't currently own one of the perfect cars from the authority's opinion is silly. I would think the followers would spend their time on their discussions telling everyone there how great their vehicle choice was.
In your case, your purchase probably was the best deal for you. You like the car, and certainly, the price was right.
How much that purchased helped the people who live around you more than any other manufacturer's product is debatable. It definitely helped the local dealer and anyone locally who services you vehicle, or sells products that you use to maintain it.
At that $9900.00 price, it certainly didn't do much for GM's profits, and a low to no profit vehicle doesn't do much to encourage continued production of any product, or to continue maintaining a workforce.... Much less, expansion of said workforce.
But, since I believe you stated in a previous comment that you don't really care how much profit a company makes, but instead more about what the vehicle costs you, that shouldn't be of too much concern.
Still, if it makes you feel better to think you did the "right" thing, then that's what you should think, but you would have done a much more "righter" thing by buying a domestically manufactured domestically owned company vehicle with a much higher $$$ profit. Buying anything at a fire sale price usually gives much more advantage to the buyer than anyone else.
I can testify to the quality of BMW automobiles, because I own and drive them, and I've owned all domestically made brand cars as well.
I don't think a BMW is for everyone, just as I don't think any car is for everyone.
I do think that car magazines get caught up in the aspects of a car that don't really matter to the majority of buyers, regardless of make.
Most Corvette owners don't drive like the magazine testers/drivers do... Nor do BMW drivers. Yet, no one wants to read about a "milk toast" experience in a Corvette. Bland doesn't sell excitement, in magazines or in TV ads.
I think the magazines are attempting to appeal to the folks most likely to buy their rag, and that would be the car enthusiasts, not the run of the mill car buyer.
I may read the magazines, but the don't have much influence in MY purchased, since I don't drive to the corner store like I'm at the Indy 500...
I think it's quite clear to those who want to think about it, that buying a car built in a nearby plant, which employs people and suppliers both in my hometown and also the town I grew up in, helps people around me more than having bought a Kia Rio, for example. I think that's pretty basic. I recorded a sale for the local plant.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
The arrogant, one-sidedness of many bloggers, "experts," car fan mags, etc. so often talk up their favorite perfect car and rag everything else as lesser. Right now that would have to be the BMWs. It's the pipers leading the followers to the cliff.
And for those who whine about GM's black dots in CR, BMW has not much to crow about.
Although I've succeeded in my job more than my Dad would ever have imagined, I'm still a simple guy with simple tastes, and I care about people around me. Those are "Mayberry" qualities I picked up from growing up where I did.
Saying that a sale of an inexpensive local car didn't really help the locals much, is sort of like saying your vote doesn't count much because it's only one vote. I doubt you'd say that to too many folks.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I have seen lots of BMW's sold in the last few years in our area. I suspect they will be gone before the 4-year warranty inclusive of services will be expired. There's a price to owning a car like BMW. I see quite a few what appear to be used BMW's purchased by some other buyers. Posts sound like they will have high maintenance costs--higher than they expect.
> Yet, no one wants to read about a "milk toast" experience in a Corvette.
Prezactly. Everytime I drive my leSabre on a longer trip, I enjoy the comfort of not feeling the individual stones on the road and having a car that goes straight down the road. I enjoy driving my Cobalt on a trip but it's a little different. It's so agile for my drives on backroads into Indiana back to the area where I grew up. Why not have a car built by a US-based company and better by US plants in my case. Why buy a car from a company that when the media show up at the headquarters in Japan, the company folks come out wearing face masks so they don't get germs inhaled from the heathen dawgs from the "other" country where they peddled their cars. Remember those videos from the days of the unwanted acceleration problems?
>I do think that car magazines get caught up in the aspects of a car that don't really matter to the majority of buyers, regardless of make.
And yet they are quoted along with questionable data on mileage, e.g., they synthetize by some as authority. I recall sitting in a waiting room and the car mag had two cars pitted against each other in an alleged side-by-side test (I doubt they were within a hundred miles of each other at any time) and they were names like Lamborghini Essentiallissimo Grandiante Bellante vs. a Ferrari Testosterone Enhancing Sympatico Durante. Both were special models. AND they were tests at a frozen lake in Europe. Just the driving experience I wanted.
I recall a local Ford store having a GT Ford on their showroom. I asked the salesman, as I sat in a Fusion, 500, and Focus, how the GT did in snow. And did it have snow tires available. Why anyone would buy a Ford because Ford made a GT is beyond me. A standard Corvette is driveable in winter. A nurse who lived up the road from me did just that. For other days she had a Civic. Her father had worked for the Chev/Honda store after he retired as a policeman. It was interesting to see a Vette that never burped the gas pedal. She'd go by at 25 mph.
> since I don't drive to the corner store like I'm at the Indy 500...
My big concern is buying a car with tires on it that can absorb a bump or pothole impact. I may have to buy a lesser model to get a talled sidewall these days; or buy a higher model and buy tires and rims that can actually be driven. I've long given up on getting a 55-45 bench front seat as in my leSabres.
> but the don't have much influence in MY purchased, since I don't drive to
Popular Science, Mechanix Illustrated, used to do real car reviews about driving ordinary vehicles, along with some special interest cars. Where's Tom Cahill?
>Saying that a sale of an inexpensive local car didn't really help the locals much, is sort of like saying your vote doesn't count much because it's only one vote
In the Stories from the Sales Frontlines discussion here on Edmunds, An ex car sales manager talked about the marginal costs of a car company being paid for by the low profit sales, such as leasing and rental companies. Of course, that's why so many complain about GM on, but those car sales put cars out the door.
Some guys just stick with what they like. My Grandpop stuck with Chevrolet from 1964 on for the rest of his life though he easily could've afforded a Buick Electra or a Cadillac DeVille. He was a lot more sensible than me I guess. My wife's father who was the same age as my Grandpop never drove a car fancier than a Ford Galaxie or a Chevrolet Impala though he lived in a huge house in an upscale suburb.
I think so much of what one likes is a function of their age and I think you're a few years younger than me at least, lemko. That said, that '70 is a very sharp Chevy, and I can clearly remember the first '70 Caprice I saw before introduction day..a light blue Sport Sedan with the color-keyed wheelcovers like above. The old salesman said, "Never thought I'd see the day a Chevy cost five grand"!
I think that interiors of Chevys got 'less nice' after '70--very little visible plastic inside those cars, compared to the '71 and later. I think the '71, they spent so much money on the exterior, there wasn't much left for the interior!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
It isn't that bad! Now, the 1997-generation Malibu, that was BAD!!! My wife had a 1999 Olds Cutlass sedan - the Malibu's uglier sister. That car was the very personification of mediocity! It was not an Oldsmobile as I knew them! I had a 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency with the 403 V-8 and my Dad had a 1955 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Starfire convertible. THEY were Oldsmobiles - not that crappy piece of rental fodder.
Good God, if Chevrolet could make something as nice as that '70, I wouldn't even need to look at a Cadillac or Buick! My Uncle Daniel had a drop-dead gorgeous dark blue 1970 Chevrolet Impala Custom two-door hardtop. That dark blue metallic was so rich it looked like you could reach your hand into it!
I don't eat or drink in any of my cars and forbid others to do so as well!
I have fond memories of going to the drive-in with my dad in his '53 Buick before I was 10, riding shotgun, and getting to open the glove box door. It had two indentions for our milk shakes. Ned Nickles knew that cars were for eating in.
And some days we'd finish up and then take a drive out into the country to the bootleggers.
Kids had performances this weekend and Criswell Chevy sponsored the event, so they had a bunch of new Chevys, and a few from other brands.
First car was one of those bright orange Sonics. Interesting little car. Less space then I remember in the Fit, but it sure has personality. I kinda like the motorcycle inspired gauge cluster.
I thought my kid would like the flashy color, but he actually liked the black/dark gray Cruze LT next to it. It was loaded up with moonroof, leather, 18" rims. EIGHTEEN?! Holy moly. Sticker was $27 and change but I'm sure you could get it for a bunch less than that. I liked it minus the price and the rubber bands for tires.
Surprisingly, no Malibu Eco. Big miss on the dealer's part. Maybe supply is short? I can't imagine they can't get a single one...
Equinox was also there. It was facing a new CR-V and a new Acura RDX. I guess the dealer also has those franchises. The 'nox is roomy and looks better outside, though I liked the CR-V better inside. My kid liked the RDX but they had the A/C cranked and it was a hot day, plus it was playing music he liked. Cost was $38 something, yikes. Remember when that money got you an MDX?
They also had a Camaro convertible that got its share of attention. My kid loved it.
Also had a Fiat 500C. Disappointing how closed it feels. Doesn't feel like a convertible at all. It's way too enclosed for me. Crossed it off my list as a replacement for my roadster.
They brought a dealer-modded Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, it had a lift kit, big wheels and tires, fender flares, and a $43k sticker price. LOL.
C'mon guys the best Jeeps are built not bought. $43k should buy 2 Jeeps not one.
They really should have had a Malibu there. They were locked at the auto show so believe it or not I haven't even sat inside one yet.
Comments
In what The New York Times called a "rare" instance of a company executive expressing frustration with government ownership, Akerson told the newspaper he believes GM has become "a political football." He says he has not gotten a clear message from the Treasury about when it will sell its remaining 26% stake in the automaker.
Akerson argues the Obama Administration doesn't want to sell GM shares at current prices, because it would result in a multi-billion dollar loss, possibly hurting Obama's image in an election year.
Meanwhile, the taint of government ownership is affecting everything from sales of new vehicles to hiring to the ability of top executives to use a corporate jet to fly to remote locations in China.
Now I know why the news regarding Akerson's succession has been flying around. His days are numbered!
Regards,
OW
It wasn't the brand of vehicle and it's sales, it was the market segment that was being compared.
Don't get hung up on the manufacturer, especially in which numbers aren't available.
Comparing Mustang sales to Camaro is fine if you want to compare the 2 models, and it's entirely possible that in Circle's comparison it might be more appropriate to lump Camaro, Mustang and Dodge Challenger sales for the comparison.
It can get a bit dicey doing such comparisons because of so many permutations possible, such as some potential sporty car buyers refusing to buy a Ford product, or willing to buy a Mustang but deciding to wait for the Camaro or Challenger to come to market (delayed purchases).
That's why these types of comparisons need to be closely examined before jumping to conclusions.
The old "vertical" way of marketing no longer applies, as most car buyers re-evaluate the brand each and every purchase, as compared to 30-40 years ago when a manufacturer got its "hooks" into the young buyer and kept him within the brand for a lifetime, starting with the lower priced/lower optioned vehicles, and them moving him up within the brand over the years... From Chevy Nova, to Malibu, to Impala to Caprice....then, maybe over to Buick, Pontiac or Cadillac.
I definitely remember Pontiac marketing was designed (within the dealer network) to move the Bonneville owner over to the Cadillac brand as the owner became more affluent. That was 50 years ago, though...
I believe people in our small town bought the dealer as much as the brand. Our GM dealers were Chevrolet-Cadillac, Pontiac, and Buick-Olds.
The first mention of GM is that their first-quarter profit that surpassed forecasts
after saying that America has questions about the strength of it's economy over the next 6 months.
The Kia and Elantra and Sonata are all very nice cars.
A 2012 Cruze 1LT has a TMV of 19,848. With Turbo and 6 spd auto. The Elantra GLS is TMV at 18,048. With $1200 of GM card earnings, I'd have to pay $600 more to get the Cruze with the Turbo. What if the stimulus created about 1/30 of a US job for each extra $600 spent? That would have been 50,000,000 jobs to build 30 cars per job. (Assumes $595440 worth of car sales equals a job for an auto worker and also assumes that at equal pricing Americans would chose American cars).
"Chevrolets for years on end, Pontiac for years on end..."
They stayed within the brand and wouldn't consider buying outside the brand until/if they reached a higher income level bracket, and even then they stayed within the parent manufacturer.
Same thing happened where I grew up in South GA. One could accurately predict the next make car over 98% of the new car buyers were going to buy before they even thought about trading.
If the Bonneville owner was going to move up, you could bet it was to a Caddie. If the Ford owner was going to move up, you could all but guarantee it would be a Lincoln.
I'm sure some of it was due to dealer relationships, but that same buying model was passed onward to the next generation, even though the subsequent generations lived elsewhere and had different dealers.
Even with the "invasion" of the imports, I remember seeing the same process with Toyota. It was a Toyota family... 100%. Toyota still has occasional ads featuring such families.
Today, I can't think of a single friend that doesn't examine multiple brands and manufacturers when new car shopping. It's the car with the looks, options, price and availability that usually gets driven off the lot. Once and a while a longer warranty comes into play, but not often.
Ironically, last week in Harrisburg with my three coworkers (37.7 mpg at 75-80 mph and a trunk full of luggage in my Cobalt), my boss had rented a mahogany-colored Avalon and I thought it was the best-looking (least 'Asian' looking; not 'insectoid') Japanese car I'd seen in awhile and the interior looked inviting.
http://www.chevrolet.com/culture/article/2014-impala-sports-sedan/
I still think they should offer a column shift with fold-down center armrest, but with the shape of that instrument panel, I'm quite certain that won't happen!
Dollar-for-dollar, I'd buy a used Corvette before springing a new Camaro.
And no offense to you, but dopey to you, sensible to a lot of others.
My guess is that you have not so much as sat in a Malibu. I own one, we love it, and I have driven comparable vehicles.
Well, I did sit in one at the auto show, and I did rent and drive a G6 based upon the same platform. And I have also owned cars from US, German, and Japanese manufacurers. I could argue that people who haven't owned many makes can't really talk about what makes are better, or worse. Individuals who criticize other makes without a variety of experiences with those makes seems pretty dopey to me, but to each his own.
It is priced so much less than other cars, that it's a great value--the 2012--which is no doubt why AOL Autos called it just a few weeks ago 'the best value in America'.
Of course, that's all lost on you.
I agree with your comments on value. It's obvious that you can't accurately discuss what is "lost on me" given that I agree with your comments. There's no reason to criticize points of view, as the facts that I posted are just that, facts. I know you don't care if a car sells well or not (per previous posts), but if we are looking for the survival and success of GM (which I assume might be the case for those posting here), it's not looking to me that GM is extremely strong, and the market share numbers seem to bear that out.
Also, I agree that the term "best value" suffers from the interpretation of the describing individual.
Living very close to the BMW plant, I know several employees that are originally from Germany and have transferred here, for various time periods. What sticks in my mind is a conversation I had a couple of years ago with one of them.
He was joking that, in selling the features of a car to a prospective buyer, the seller could demonstrate a car with the ability to go 100 mpg, withstand a head on collision with a 100 mph freight train, and go 100,000 miles between oil changes, yet many American buyers would ask how many cup-holders were in the car...
Indeed, the cup-holder issue has been a tough one for all German manufacturers to grasp, but it does clearly demonstrate the different ways "value" can be defined.
I suspect Kia and Hyundai vehicles are pretty good values, but I've never owned one, so all I can do is guess. I do know that if you paid $50,000 for a car that sells for $100,000, and the car isn't what you like or wanted, then it isn't much of a value to you.
How very ironic. Go Kia!
Regards,
OW
Too big to fail has it's upsides and downsides. It all ain't "smellin' like roses" at the moment. Size slows progress and GM is not growing.
Some can see this others look away for that "Old Time Feelin'". Ain't gonna happen.
GM had it's day in the sun. They blew it. They are still the biggest but hardly the best. Time to go to 2 divisions and admit the 4 just bleeds when even greater focus is needed.
Chevy Caddy. Period. ....or get in line for another bailout. :shades:
Regards,
OW
Well, that didn't occur to me. But I've never been one to visit showrooms for the fun of it. I suppose some people go to Chevy.com to check out Vettes and wind up pricing Camaros when they figure out what their payment is going to be. Or they'll admire one on the street and decide on something else instead of ordering one, when they realize the low supply.
Enough of a stretch for you?
You can't argue what other people "know" based on their experiences. Those are their experiences and opinions. They may have owned, ridden in, experienced more vehicles than you think, as well.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Mine was 36, and I got 37. Far more believable.
I believe you've talked up the 274 hp, so I'll assume you have the Turbo. Here's where C/D got 20 mpg:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2011-kia-optima-sx-turbo-test-review
I know it wasn't you who said it, but "Go Kia!" is ridiculous to me. His Korean-built auto, by a Korean company...wow, let's root for that. Sheesh.
It's rated 34 and I get 37 on long highway trips every time. :shades:
Regards,
OW
Did Kia offer a car that would do that mileage in 2008, and available for purchase for $9,900? That's what I've got.
I find that it is routine that people with absolute opinions on cars most often base them solely on what they've read in (fill in the blank) magazine, and not on ownership or rental experiences.
No doubt. But certainly the experience of renting, or driving a friend's car, is not the same as owning a vehicle for a number of years, which is the point that I was making.
How many times have all of us test-driven a car (new or used), decided it was appealing, decided to buy it, and inevitably while we might still like it, we find certain characteristics that annoy us, or could be much better - characteristics that we didn't notice upon a more superficial examination?
We need more population to pay for SS to keep boomer entitlements coming, so they can buy GM cars into their sunset years :shades:
Anyway, they probably do sell a fair amount of Vettes to that sector.
I sure don't care if they buy GM rigs I just want them to pay for their Social Security so it is there for me when I retire. That's all.
And I'll buy another Mitsubishi, not a Dodge, not a GM, not a Ford. I'll buy another Japanese-built Mitsubishi product. I love my wife and I's 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS more today than the day we bought it. That day was March 21, 2007. It's motor, HVAC, transmission, stereo and electronics, seats, steering, handling and ride and interior and exterior look and feel are just plain fantastic. I can't imagine a better compact car than this.
So I won't. Rock to some stellar Foghat, Tragically Hip, Guess Who, Drive-By Truckers and Robin Trower right now. Don't wait and please...don't delay.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Wow.
I typically get 23 mpg around town, no highway in Eco mode.
I wouldn't even look at a Kia in 2008. Funny how the competition keeps sneaking up for GM. How'd that happen?
Cobalt = 2,730 lbs. Optima SX = 3,450
Cobalt = yesterday technology, good economy, low aesthetics.
The Malibu will catch up to the Optima by the fall in engine technology. Sadly, bankruptcy stunted GM quite a bit.
Here's a little blip about the Cobalt back in 2008:
2008 Cobalt
The opinions of those who desperately want to believe in something are exceptionally malleable. How else to explain GM fans' short-term memory loss re: the Cobalt's already-broken promises? And now, once again, the Next Big– I mean, small thing are dangled before them..
When the Chevrolet Cruze arrives in 2011, it'll no doubt compare well with the generations of Civic and Corolla on sale during its gestation, just as the Cobalt did in 2005.
This is the other shot they had, once again with either the outdoorsy background or a plain beige backdrop. Again, this is the \"Sport\" model, not the LS.But will the General fail to lead a moving target, benchmarking rivals that already have one foot in the grave? "Time will tell," the faithful grumble. Trouble is, time's told this tale before.
Regards,
OW
I am as convinced today as I was in 2008 that I bought the best-all-around car for me that my $9,900 would buy, and it actually helped people who live around me too. As I've said, there's no bad in any of that.
At first, I thought you were linking from one of many posts in this forum! :sick:
The arrogant, one-sidedness of many bloggers, "experts," car fan mags, etc. so often talk up their favorite perfect car and rag everything else as lesser. Right now that would have to be the BMWs. It's the pipers leading the followers to the cliff.
The idea that someone who owns a car and drives it everyday doesn't know anything about it and can't evaluate it because they don't currently own one of the perfect cars from the authority's opinion is silly. I would think the followers would spend their time on their discussions telling everyone there how great their vehicle choice was.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
How much that purchased helped the people who live around you more than any other manufacturer's product is debatable. It definitely helped the local dealer and anyone locally who services you vehicle, or sells products that you use to maintain it.
At that $9900.00 price, it certainly didn't do much for GM's profits, and a low to no profit vehicle doesn't do much to encourage continued production of any product, or to continue maintaining a workforce.... Much less, expansion of said workforce.
But, since I believe you stated in a previous comment that you don't really care how much profit a company makes, but instead more about what the vehicle costs you, that shouldn't be of too much concern.
Still, if it makes you feel better to think you did the "right" thing, then that's what you should think, but you would have done a much more "righter" thing by buying a domestically manufactured domestically owned company vehicle with a much higher $$$ profit. Buying anything at a fire sale price usually gives much more advantage to the buyer than anyone else.
I don't think a BMW is for everyone, just as I don't think any car is for everyone.
I do think that car magazines get caught up in the aspects of a car that don't really matter to the majority of buyers, regardless of make.
Most Corvette owners don't drive like the magazine testers/drivers do... Nor do BMW drivers. Yet, no one wants to read about a "milk toast" experience in a Corvette. Bland doesn't sell excitement, in magazines or in TV ads.
I think the magazines are attempting to appeal to the folks most likely to buy their rag, and that would be the car enthusiasts, not the run of the mill car buyer.
I may read the magazines, but the don't have much influence in MY purchased, since I don't drive to the corner store like I'm at the Indy 500...
And for those who whine about GM's black dots in CR, BMW has not much to crow about.
Although I've succeeded in my job more than my Dad would ever have imagined, I'm still a simple guy with simple tastes, and I care about people around me. Those are "Mayberry" qualities I picked up from growing up where I did.
Saying that a sale of an inexpensive local car didn't really help the locals much, is sort of like saying your vote doesn't count much because it's only one vote. I doubt you'd say that to too many folks.
I have seen lots of BMW's sold in the last few years in our area. I suspect they will be gone before the 4-year warranty inclusive of services will be expired. There's a price to owning a car like BMW. I see quite a few what appear to be used BMW's purchased by some other buyers. Posts sound like they will have high maintenance costs--higher than they expect.
> Yet, no one wants to read about a "milk toast" experience in a Corvette.
Prezactly. Everytime I drive my leSabre on a longer trip, I enjoy the comfort of not feeling the individual stones on the road and having a car that goes straight down the road. I enjoy driving my Cobalt on a trip but it's a little different. It's so agile for my drives on backroads into Indiana back to the area where I grew up. Why not have a car built by a US-based company and better by US plants in my case. Why buy a car from a company that when the media show up at the headquarters in Japan, the company folks come out wearing face masks so they don't get germs inhaled from the heathen dawgs from the "other" country where they peddled their cars. Remember those videos from the days of the unwanted acceleration problems?
>I do think that car magazines get caught up in the aspects of a car that don't really matter to the majority of buyers, regardless of make.
And yet they are quoted along with questionable data on mileage, e.g., they synthetize by some as authority. I recall sitting in a waiting room and the car mag had two cars pitted against each other in an alleged side-by-side test (I doubt they were within a hundred miles of each other at any time) and they were names like Lamborghini Essentiallissimo Grandiante Bellante vs. a Ferrari Testosterone Enhancing Sympatico Durante. Both were special models. AND they were tests at a frozen lake in Europe. Just the driving experience I wanted.
I recall a local Ford store having a GT Ford on their showroom. I asked the salesman, as I sat in a Fusion, 500, and Focus, how the GT did in snow. And did it have snow tires available. Why anyone would buy a Ford because Ford made a GT is beyond me. A standard Corvette is driveable in winter. A nurse who lived up the road from me did just that. For other days she had a Civic. Her father had worked for the Chev/Honda store after he retired as a policeman. It was interesting to see a Vette that never burped the gas pedal. She'd go by at 25 mph.
> since I don't drive to the corner store like I'm at the Indy 500...
My big concern is buying a car with tires on it that can absorb a bump or pothole impact. I may have to buy a lesser model to get a talled sidewall these days; or buy a higher model and buy tires and rims that can actually be driven. I've long given up on getting a 55-45 bench front seat as in my leSabres.
> but the don't have much influence in MY purchased, since I don't drive to
Popular Science, Mechanix Illustrated, used to do real car reviews about driving ordinary vehicles, along with some special interest cars. Where's Tom Cahill?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In the Stories from the Sales Frontlines discussion here on Edmunds, An ex car sales manager talked about the marginal costs of a car company being paid for by the low profit sales, such as leasing and rental companies. Of course, that's why so many complain about GM on, but those car sales put cars out the door.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think that interiors of Chevys got 'less nice' after '70--very little visible plastic inside those cars, compared to the '71 and later. I think the '71, they spent so much money on the exterior, there wasn't much left for the interior!
Fixed it for ya!
You are right.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have fond memories of going to the drive-in with my dad in his '53 Buick before I was 10, riding shotgun, and getting to open the glove box door. It had two indentions for our milk shakes. Ned Nickles knew that cars were for eating in.
And some days we'd finish up and then take a drive out into the country to the bootleggers.
First car was one of those bright orange Sonics. Interesting little car. Less space then I remember in the Fit, but it sure has personality. I kinda like the motorcycle inspired gauge cluster.
I thought my kid would like the flashy color, but he actually liked the black/dark gray Cruze LT next to it. It was loaded up with moonroof, leather, 18" rims. EIGHTEEN?! Holy moly. Sticker was $27 and change but I'm sure you could get it for a bunch less than that. I liked it minus the price and the rubber bands for tires.
Surprisingly, no Malibu Eco. Big miss on the dealer's part. Maybe supply is short? I can't imagine they can't get a single one...
Equinox was also there. It was facing a new CR-V and a new Acura RDX. I guess the dealer also has those franchises. The 'nox is roomy and looks better outside, though I liked the CR-V better inside. My kid liked the RDX but they had the A/C cranked and it was a hot day, plus it was playing music he liked. Cost was $38 something, yikes. Remember when that money got you an MDX?
They also had a Camaro convertible that got its share of attention. My kid loved it.
Also had a Fiat 500C. Disappointing how closed it feels. Doesn't feel like a convertible at all. It's way too enclosed for me. Crossed it off my list as a replacement for my roadster.
They brought a dealer-modded Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, it had a lift kit, big wheels and tires, fender flares, and a $43k sticker price. LOL.
C'mon guys the best Jeeps are built not bought. $43k should buy 2 Jeeps not one.
They really should have had a Malibu there. They were locked at the auto show so believe it or not I haven't even sat inside one yet.
Where did you grow up?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,