Yeah right, I could rent you a Caddy Cimmaron and you would LOVE IT!
And no I dont have one, sorry, not trying to tease.
But since everything GM does is perfect you can go and buy the new GM Lemenko and it will run forever as we all know it has a million horsepower, gets 2000 mpg, and only cost a penny.
When some are being objective about selecting the appropriate colored tie to go with a particular colored shirt, they consider all the color combinations of ties at hand.
Meanwhile, others always select the black tie, regardless of shirt color.
It's the way of the world.
Regarding the rebate, I admit I'm surprised to see them come out so soon with one. It does lend credence to the idea that GM is addicted to incentives, instead of attempting to move away from them.
I assume that was meant to be a bit humorous - it's loyalty cash, so you already have to own a GM to get it, and I seriously doubt that $1000 is going to be the make-or-break on a vehicle that stickers at $54K.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I believe the 'see dealer for details' isn't so much that a loyalty rebate would be a big secret, but that they don't want to say on the website page about offers, "None".
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
So, Edmunds and Automobile are correct, but Chevrolet's own website is wrong? Unlikely. More likely is that Automobile cribbed the info from Edmunds, or made a wild-*** assumption that "ALL Camaros get incentives".
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Unless Chevrolet is using eBay as a marketing channel, it really isn't relevant to how GM is selling vehicles.
You see examples of folks paying $$$$$ on eBay for a piece of toast that looks like what some would call the form of Jesus imprinted on it, but it really isn't relevant to me when I'm purchasing a loaf of bread...
I thought we were discussing current production vehicles that are available at any Chevrolet dealer.
While I agree with your statement, I'm not sure what auctions of out of production vehicles has to do with the price of a new Camaro, or any other new vehicle...
I don't think I would rely too much on what eBay sales are reported to be.... You should watch Jay Leno on the nights he does his "Things we found on eBay" skit. You'll see that there are several "less than savvy dealmakers" out there...
Does it (Chevrolet website) mention sales on eBay?
Come on, now. The point is that people are paying over sticker for a ZL-1--much as I predicted earlier in the ZL-1 'incentive brouhaha' discussion of a few months ago.
I am going to take a break now. Really this time. I came back when I saw that Edmunds' incentives list was being used as an authority here instead of the manufacturer's own site.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Here's an article on an auction of a new zl1 Camaro, but I don't think many would confuse the special results of this auction with the general sales prices the car will generate during the regular dealer sales process.
If you have ever attended any auction, you may have heard of "auction fever".
It's when folks get carried away and spend more than they could normally buy the item, all in the intent to "win" the auction and get the item NOW.
Besides, I don't think it takes a crystal ball to see the first few examples of a special model go for a higher bid price. I used the example of the Chrysler PT Cruiser a few years back. I also saw it in diesel powered Jettas in the last fuel price spike a few years back.
Harley Davidson did it on every model it produced, and was successful for years getting above-list prices in the late 1990-2000's..
As I stated earlier (and this is based upon the assumption the loyalty rebate is valid), I'm surprised GM is starting out the gate with the incentive.
It simply re-enforces the image that GM is addicted to incentives. Personally, I would at least given the car a chance before throwing incentives at it.
Sorry, it's just addictive around here. Don't fight it.
GM & eBay experimented with new car sales for a couple of months back in '09. My guess is that eBay didn't like being the storefront that, unlike the Best Buy kind of situation, took people's online interest and drove them to the dealership, resulting in few online sales.
Frankly, I don't see any advantage by going the eBay route for any carmaker.
Unless the potential buyer could do more (ie, get better pricing) by using eBay than the more direct method of contacting dealers directly via Internet, it would seem to me that the "middleman" feeling would tend to make buyers more wary... And, if I read the article correctly, better pricing wasn't obtainable by using eBay.
After all, how difficult is it to contact the closest 3-4 dealers in your area either via email or dealer web-site to ask for their pricing? Add to that, most new cars are bought locally (a few search high and low to save a buck, an are willing to travel long distances to save said buck), and after 3-4 quotes, I would think the price line being offered pretty much starts to level out.... A little higher at one dealer, a little lower at another, but very few $1000 differences...
But, that's just me, and seeing as how I don't even do the Facebook thing, maybe I'm living in the past...
Seems like if somebody wants facts, not opinions, then facts are given - we shouldn't call it a downer. It IS facts. There may be counterbalancing facts, and you should post those, too. In that way we get a realistic picture, both beauty AND warts. Isn't that what facts are for?
GE, in a move that can only be described as treacherous, also took advantage of the existing system for generations - then when the heat got hot and bills came due, ran away to a tax haven to avoid accountability. Our executive sector at work, they sure deserve their gold for the tough decisions they make. Certainly none of them should be locked up or worse, that would be class warfare.
Maybe those foreign makers were aided so much because they knew our makers, in this supposed capitalist meritocracy, would never be similarly aided. Heck, we even help them out, look how much has been pumped into Korea over the decades.
Actually GE has been propped up by the US government--their financial division received money and by eliminating light bulbs with filaments from being sold so GE's fluorescent division can sell those. Ford has received monies for "green" car development, IIRC. Bank of America--does that need explainging?, etc.
I'm not saying that foreign governments haven't subsidized their industry at times. And I'm not saying that our government hasn't either. It's history - it can't be changed. I'm saying it needs to stop. If we go by it was okay in the past, so why change, we would still have slavery. If you think it is only "evening" things out, and then the other side evens them out their way, it sounds a lot like the problems in Ireland or the Holy Land.
As I've said before we held and still hold most of the cards in any trade discussion. If we don't think Korean auto manufacturers are on a level playing field, we could threaten to remove our military and nuclear umbrella right? to force Korea to stop subsidizing. We don't like Japan's government involvement - same thing. Japan would basically be defenseless against Chinese desires (no love loss there going back to WWII). So in many cases, the playing-field can be as what We want. Or we stop trade with those countries - neither Japan or Korea buy anywhere near what we do from them.
But back to this countries' internal policies... they must change to stop playing favorites. Whether it is the Tea Party or the 99% there will be growing opposition to the DC and corporate-financial elite writing the rules to favor themselves.
DC did not save GM or AIG, or anyone else to help the common citizen in this country. Our politicians acted to protect their friends - the 1%er's and the status quo of their fortunes and power, and their friends - the unions.
You'd be a fool to believe that the majority of people in DC care about the ordinary person. They will only do enough for the common people to give the appearance they do, to garner enough votes to get reelected.
Exactly. DC is so full of patronage and corruption, that they can't even apply the same sort of laws and ethics as most of us are supposed to follow.
Superpaks to get around donation limits - OK. 40K lobbyists offering subtle deals and bribes - Ok. Congressional insider-trading - allowed. Lavish parties thrown by the rich with "speaking fees" going to politicians - fine. $10K per plate dinners - no problemo. Take a look in the papers at White House dinners and such - many middle class people there? Who gets to meet the POTUS - oh people like Jimmy Hoffa.
There should be no difference to the way GM is treated than to how Borders was treated, to how the plumbing-business down the street is treated. Ban tax breaks. Ban subsidies to foreign companies, and ban doing business with foreign subsidized industries.
Government should enforce fairness rules, not help businesses gain advantages. Pretty simple stuff. The past can not be changed, so stop using the past to justify future inequity.
No. The Cimmaron was a POS and I refuse to even call it a Cadillac. When I say I won't judge any car by the rental, I mean I don't care who the manufacturer is, foreign or domestic. Rental cars are beat to heck, especially in the city.
Every GM vehicle I've owned has been extremely reliable, durable, and dependable. I have no reason to look elsewhere. GM has been good to me. Why mess with a good thing?
One of the two has to happen, or we die. We either aid our team equal to the competition, or we penalize the competing team at the same amount, to level the playing field. Anything else will be failure.
Failure comes from endless tax breaks, other subsidies given to offshorers, allowing the corporate elite to be untouchable, and letting invading competitors operate here without question.
The protection of S. Korea if based on number of troops, ships, and air squadrons kept in the area probably would be 10% - 20% of the U.S. defense budget. So as POTUS I would have no trouble demanding that of the S. Koreans each year, or we leave; and as you said the S. Koreans can hope they can defend themselves - given they have a larger population and economy.
I'd guess that if S. Korea had to pay their defense bill then they wouldn't have any $ left to subsidize industry, and thus would not have any artificially low cost advantage.
But our leaders seem to be okay with subsidizing the world, opening our universities, and allowing U.S. companies and universities to transfer knowledge. That doesn't benefit our country, doesn't benefit the middle or working classes here. Who do you think most of the benefit goes to? I would guess the people who have bought and paid for the representatives in our government.
GM wasn't kept as GM for the good of the 99%, unless you were the UAW and members in the 99%.
That was a crazy suit to begin with. One source stated the obvious - the $10,000 she won (and now lost) was far more than the additional fuel cost she experienced.
This country is so litigious no wonder businesses set up shop in other places.
Well, don't forget that the claimant in the suit also happened to be an attorney by trade, so it isn't surprising the won the first round (attorneys aren't allowed to represent either side in the court level where she originally won).
But, you're correct. It's why your wife's hair dryer has a warning label telling you not to use it in the shower...
But, you're correct. It's why your wife's hair dryer has a warning label telling you not to use it in the shower...
Yeah, but if that label is only in English, that company still has a problem. My company has started putting inserts with its products written in 20-some different languages (a mini book).
Please press "1" to electrocute yourself in English, press "2" to electrocute yourself in Spanish, press "3" to electrocute yourself in .....
Amazing... Simply amazing that we (our society in general) have reached such a low level of intelligence and such a high level of blaming others for our ignorance in the US.
Agreed. It was pretty obvious the judgment wasn't going to stand.
Contrary to what she thinks, I really doubt the event will have much negative impact on Honda or hybrids, as most drivers readily understand that mpg is pretty much a crapshoot, and highly dependent on driving patterns.
USA has an article about some folks getting hyper mpg in a diesel VW, but I doubt I or you would be able to do the same...
That's just it - the manufacturer doesn't promise X mpg. They conduct a test on a dyno under controlled circumstances and share what they got, and a range.
Comments
ZL-1 Rebates
FACT! Take a peek. (I just took a shot and whadya know!). :P
Regards,
OW
Check back to see any news you missed from time to time. By the way, never any negativity pointed at you personally in the least from my keystrokes.
Go Chevy!
Best Regards,
OW
And no I dont have one, sorry, not trying to tease.
But since everything GM does is perfect you can go and buy the new GM Lemenko and it will run forever as we all know it has a million horsepower, gets 2000 mpg, and only cost a penny.
Such high demand when can I get one?
Meanwhile, others always select the black tie, regardless of shirt color.
It's the way of the world.
Regarding the rebate, I admit I'm surprised to see them come out so soon with one. It does lend credence to the idea that GM is addicted to incentives, instead of attempting to move away from them.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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Review your vehicle
Regards,
OW
I believe the 'see dealer for details' isn't so much that a loyalty rebate would be a big secret, but that they don't want to say on the website page about offers, "None".
Regards,
OW
Found this on "Automobile":
2012 Chevrolet ZL1 Coupe Rebates & Incentives
Rebate Cash Max Rebate Cash Bonus Cash Internet Price
N/A N/A $1,000 Click & Save
24 Month Lease Rate 36 Month Lease Rate 48 Month Lease Rate Internet Price
1.0% 2.1% 3.8% Click & Save
24 Month Finance Rate 36 Month Finance Rate 48 Month Finance Rate Internet Price
1.9% 1.9% 1.9% Click & Save
This must've just popped up. Anyway, just consider it at face "value".
Regards,
OW
http://motors.completed.shop.ebay.com/Cars-Trucks-/6001/i.html?MotorsShowItems&_- sadis=200&_ipg=50&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_from=R40&_samihi=&_samilow=&_fpos=&_udhi=&- _oexkw=&_udlo=&_adv=1&_sop=12&_nkw=2012+Camaro+Zl1&_okw=&_dmd=1&LH_Complete=1&_f- sct=&guest=1
That's what I would call it, and I suspect that's what most would call it.
But I agree, it's technically not a rebate.
You see examples of folks paying $$$$$ on eBay for a piece of toast that looks like what some would call the form of Jesus imprinted on it, but it really isn't relevant to me when I'm purchasing a loaf of bread...
Does it (Chevrolet website) mention sales on eBay?
While I agree with your statement, I'm not sure what auctions of out of production vehicles has to do with the price of a new Camaro, or any other new vehicle...
I don't think I would rely too much on what eBay sales are reported to be.... You should watch Jay Leno on the nights he does his "Things we found on eBay" skit. You'll see that there are several "less than savvy dealmakers" out there...
Regards,
OW
Come on, now. The point is that people are paying over sticker for a ZL-1--much as I predicted earlier in the ZL-1 'incentive brouhaha' discussion of a few months ago.
I am going to take a break now. Really this time. I came back when I saw that Edmunds' incentives list was being used as an authority here instead of the manufacturer's own site.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/09/first-camaro-zl1-sells-for-250000-at-- barrett-jackson-auction.html
I have to admit, if I won the lottery, I'd probably place an order for one... Talk about being nostalgic for me...
It's when folks get carried away and spend more than they could normally buy the item, all in the intent to "win" the auction and get the item NOW.
Besides, I don't think it takes a crystal ball to see the first few examples of a special model go for a higher bid price. I used the example of the Chrysler PT Cruiser a few years back. I also saw it in diesel powered Jettas in the last fuel price spike a few years back.
Harley Davidson did it on every model it produced, and was successful for years getting above-list prices in the late 1990-2000's..
As I stated earlier (and this is based upon the assumption the loyalty rebate is valid), I'm surprised GM is starting out the gate with the incentive.
It simply re-enforces the image that GM is addicted to incentives. Personally, I would at least given the car a chance before throwing incentives at it.
But, that's just me...
I am going to take a break now. Really this time.
Sorry, it's just addictive around here. Don't fight it.
GM & eBay experimented with new car sales for a couple of months back in '09. My guess is that eBay didn't like being the storefront that, unlike the Best Buy kind of situation, took people's online interest and drove them to the dealership, resulting in few online sales.
GM, eBay end joint online sales experiment (sfgate.com)
Unless the potential buyer could do more (ie, get better pricing) by using eBay than the more direct method of contacting dealers directly via Internet, it would seem to me that the "middleman" feeling would tend to make buyers more wary... And, if I read the article correctly, better pricing wasn't obtainable by using eBay.
After all, how difficult is it to contact the closest 3-4 dealers in your area either via email or dealer web-site to ask for their pricing? Add to that, most new cars are bought locally (a few search high and low to save a buck, an are willing to travel long distances to save said buck), and after 3-4 quotes, I would think the price line being offered pretty much starts to level out.... A little higher at one dealer, a little lower at another, but very few $1000 differences...
But, that's just me, and seeing as how I don't even do the Facebook thing, maybe I'm living in the past...
Seems like if somebody wants facts, not opinions, then facts are given - we shouldn't call it a downer. It IS facts. There may be counterbalancing facts, and you should post those, too. In that way we get a realistic picture, both beauty AND warts. Isn't that what facts are for?
Maybe those foreign makers were aided so much because they knew our makers, in this supposed capitalist meritocracy, would never be similarly aided. Heck, we even help them out, look how much has been pumped into Korea over the decades.
I'm not saying that foreign governments haven't subsidized their industry at times. And I'm not saying that our government hasn't either. It's history - it can't be changed. I'm saying it needs to stop. If we go by it was okay in the past, so why change, we would still have slavery. If you think it is only "evening" things out, and then the other side evens them out their way, it sounds a lot like the problems in Ireland or the Holy Land.
As I've said before we held and still hold most of the cards in any trade discussion. If we don't think Korean auto manufacturers are on a level playing field, we could threaten to remove our military and nuclear umbrella right? to force Korea to stop subsidizing. We don't like Japan's government involvement - same thing. Japan would basically be defenseless against Chinese desires (no love loss there going back to WWII). So in many cases, the playing-field can be as what We want. Or we stop trade with those countries - neither Japan or Korea buy anywhere near what we do from them.
But back to this countries' internal policies... they must change to stop playing favorites. Whether it is the Tea Party or the 99% there will be growing opposition to the DC and corporate-financial elite writing the rules to favor themselves.
DC did not save GM or AIG, or anyone else to help the common citizen in this country. Our politicians acted to protect their friends - the 1%er's and the status quo of their fortunes and power, and their friends - the unions.
You'd be a fool to believe that the majority of people in DC care about the ordinary person. They will only do enough for the common people to give the appearance they do, to garner enough votes to get reelected.
Superpaks to get around donation limits - OK. 40K lobbyists offering subtle deals and bribes - Ok. Congressional insider-trading - allowed. Lavish parties thrown by the rich with "speaking fees" going to politicians - fine. $10K per plate dinners - no problemo. Take a look in the papers at White House dinners and such - many middle class people there? Who gets to meet the POTUS - oh people like Jimmy Hoffa.
There should be no difference to the way GM is treated than to how Borders was treated, to how the plumbing-business down the street is treated. Ban tax breaks. Ban subsidies to foreign companies, and ban doing business with foreign subsidized industries.
Government should enforce fairness rules, not help businesses gain advantages. Pretty simple stuff. The past can not be changed, so stop using the past to justify future inequity.
+1000. This, in a nutshell is exactly how a lot of people, including myself feel about the whole situation...
Government Motors doesn't make the US economy go around... :sick:
Every GM vehicle I've owned has been extremely reliable, durable, and dependable. I have no reason to look elsewhere. GM has been good to me. Why mess with a good thing?
Failure comes from endless tax breaks, other subsidies given to offshorers, allowing the corporate elite to be untouchable, and letting invading competitors operate here without question.
I'd guess that if S. Korea had to pay their defense bill then they wouldn't have any $ left to subsidize industry, and thus would not have any artificially low cost advantage.
But our leaders seem to be okay with subsidizing the world, opening our universities, and allowing U.S. companies and universities to transfer knowledge. That doesn't benefit our country, doesn't benefit the middle or working classes here. Who do you think most of the benefit goes to? I would guess the people who have bought and paid for the representatives in our government.
GM wasn't kept as GM for the good of the 99%, unless you were the UAW and members in the 99%.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/05/honda-hybrid-owners- -gas-mileage-claim-win-overturned/1#.T6v8sBB5mSM
I was surprised to see the Nissan Juke listed as best wagon...
People see the Juke and get out of the way, or drive in the other direction.
Can't hit a car you don't get close to, so low insurance rates..
That's my conspiracy theory, anyway. :shades:
This country is so litigious no wonder businesses set up shop in other places.
Sad but true. How 'bout some common sense reform?
But, you're correct. It's why your wife's hair dryer has a warning label telling you not to use it in the shower...
As for the Juke, I like your analysis.
Thing is she got greedy. Honda had to fight a $10,000 claim because otherwise every single Civic hybrid ever sold would suffer the same fate.
If she's won $500 or less they may have let it slide.
Yeah, but if that label is only in English, that company still has a problem. My company has started putting inserts with its products written in 20-some different languages (a mini book).
Just buy an XTS...
Actually it's a neat idea. Should help them provide top notch service if they implement it well.
Amazing... Simply amazing that we (our society in general) have reached such a low level of intelligence and such a high level of blaming others for our ignorance in the US.
And, I'd bet the average owner age would decrease substantially, too!
It would certainly cement my decision to buy one.
Boy we sound like geezers now. LOL
Business do need some tort reform to stop frivilous lawsuits from increasing their cost of doing business here in the USA.
Contrary to what she thinks, I really doubt the event will have much negative impact on Honda or hybrids, as most drivers readily understand that mpg is pretty much a crapshoot, and highly dependent on driving patterns.
USA has an article about some folks getting hyper mpg in a diesel VW, but I doubt I or you would be able to do the same...
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/05/84-mpg-couple-drive- - s-vw-passat-diesel-record-chevrolet-cruze-/1#.T6wp5xB5mSM
Notice the last two bullet points in the article that are 180 degrees from verified research.
Then they did a reflash of the computer and many owners' mpg went from 50 to 30. And the reflash wasn't reversible.
And if they had such clean hands, why did they settle the class action suit and give the owners $100 and the attorneys $8 million?
Honda's hybrid rep has always lagged below Toyota. People never were too thrilled with the Insight.