The other thing to realize is that in Korea, this is the WAY business is done. We might not agree, but then we are judging against how OUR economy works. To think that every country should operate OUR way is kind of silly. Whereas government ownership of failed companies is NOT the way the US typically works.
Outstanding Point! Looks like our WAY isn't the Best WAY, either.
You mean Caddy ISN'T the standard of the world?
Caddy is the "Standard in their own Mind". The rest of the world knows better!
Now c'mon guys - isn't this really just a way to say I don't like GM getting gov money, but its OK for Hyundai to get Korean gov money? Seems to me that you should either stay away from all companies that get gov money, or stop selectively criticizing only the American ones. Otherwise, it all just comes off as one giant "copout" that it's really about not liking D3 vehicles rather than gov subsidies...and honestly it all starts to sound like people who got burned by GM once and like to use any angle to slam the company no matter what they do. The BK is over, it won't likely happen again. Going forward, GM either survives or not based on how they perform down the road. The executive suite has been totally changed so history really becomes rather irrelevant going forward. Why keep drudging it up?
Now c'mon guys - isn't this really just a way to say I don't like GM getting gov money, but its OK for Hyundai to get Korean gov money?
I'd say there is *some* point to what you say. But it would be a lot more palatable if the enormous bailout (and loss of taxpayer dollars forever, realistically) was invested in a business that really looked capable of future substantial earnings and success. Propagating the UAW contracts, losing business ventures like the Volt, and continued "it's pretty good, ahhh, they're slowly getting better" is not where I feel warm and fuzzy putting our billions. In that sense, what Hyundai is doing looks a LOT better to me than where GM is at the moment. Nobody likes making poor investments.
What's the best system? With the way it is now, the unfair trade double standard, this nation seems to be being cheated en masse, with nobody doing a thing. Was it Mitten who pined about a "trade surrender"? Might be one of the quotes where he's actually right. And letting that chaebol and similar groups off without a hitch only makes things worse.
Laws in regards to business and finance are what a few people pay for...which is why I didn't only say prosecute... Maybe it's time for some ex-post-facto justice. We did it at Nuremberg, and many people floating around the FIRE industries are just as bad as the sinister figures there.
I'd say the lack of willingness to step up and take responsibility for national security, along with Korean currency issues, sure as hell are Korean problems.
Much better? I don't know about "much". Sounds subjective. Hyunkia has made huge strides and even some admirable policies (direct injection), but falls short in other areas.
If Hyunkia was competent and the best, it wouldn't receive constant coddling to this day.
I was out in my old car today, and talked to a guy in a Sorento, who was eyeing my old ride. He said he likes old cars, as in his words, his new car gets a dent when you sneeze near it :shades:
Well tiong, I fear politics will force a premature sale of GM stock. I don't think they are going to tank again. The Volt, I see it as kind of a testbed toward future technologies (but perhaps with an Obama push!). Not a high volume vehicle, or in the sense of the auto industry economics and finance, a big dollar investment. Besides Fox News and the tea party, I think confidence it GM may be hurt a bit by the low key nature of their CEO, Ackerson. His personality is not Marchione, that's for sure. But I think he is actually pretty competent and has put together a pretty good executive bullpen. Remember, the auto industry has a fairly long lead time due to the literally Billions involved in vehicle development and a rather complex PERT chart for each one. Warren Buffet has put some bucks into GM stock. He was early, so it looks ugly right now, but his long term batting average is pretty darn good. Like anyone else, he sometimes makes mistakes, but I wouldn't want to bat against him. GM has actually done a lot to turn their huge ship around and is making money in the US already (but that doesn't sell newspapers and TV ratings like exaggerating a potential catastrophe). Like Ford, they are getting slammed in Europe. Personally, I'll give GM another five years and I expect the economy is going to take that long to really turn around regardless of who wins in November. Do I think Uncle will get every buck back directly from their stock purchases - Nah, they bought high (but hope they don't sell low). However, the gov works in a more macro sense, so you have to look at the other impacts the bailout provided the economy as well I think. Politics will unfortunately likely keep that from getting out without spin by both sides. I remember when Old man Bush was in office and people were writing Ford off during that recession. I bought some of their stock and made out pretty well - the business cycle man! Cadwell and Poling were low key execs back then just like Whitacre and Ackerson. Oh, and don't forget D3 fanatics were writing Toyota off not long ago. I will say this, the open competition in the US probably means it takes longer to recover from mistakes today, but I sure as hell wouldn't trade places and live in a closed off market like Korea.
If they want to play on OUR soil, they can play by OUR rules. It's that simple. It matters nothing how business is done in Korea.
We either get to give similar aid, or we can penalize them to compensate for it. No other options. Or maybe we can pull out and let the North and maybe the Russians play with them. Might hurt Samsung and Starcraft... They really aren't in a position to hold their way over us.
"Standard of the World" is a 100+ year old marketing slogan, relating to standardized parts. Caddy is misusing it now, and so are those who mock it.
Seems that a lot of our competitors who are kicking our butts in many regards have much more governmental oversight of industry. Not to mention socialized common good programs that make "capitalists" here break into apoplectic fits.
Yup. Times have changed. The GM company is move Forward and like the administration who penned the solution says, it's time to move Forward.
So let's think Forward in what we do.
In fact, those who find the idea of governments having any involvment in private business, probably need to look at a whole lot of goods that they purchase from Japan, China, Korea, usw. If they're going to be purists, choose only US companies and preferably products built in US or at least US/Can/Mex.
Didn't Bush and Obama talk after Obama bought the election and Bush set it up so the auto companies were in the process and Obama could continue it or halt it, whichever the Elected Guy would choose.
The initlal Bush/Paulsen decisions were made long before Obama. What Bush did I believe, is leave the next step up to the next president and Congress (don't forget that the latter were also involved). I once read, I think in the WSJ or Business Week, where Bush was asked about his decision on the bailouts. His reply was essentially that while he didn't like gov bailouts, sometimes you have to make the decision based on the country's needs at the moment. He didn't lay it all on Obama and honestly I don't think he is the type to try and place the blame for everything on someone else. If you've ever spent a lot of time in Texas, you know Texans by nature generally aren't blame passers because they tend to be do'ers.
It looks like if you want all citizens helped, Europe is probably the best current system (but is it sustainable?). If you want a system that produces the most innovation, the US has the best system (but it doesn't coddle as much, and the weak are left behind, and the rich are allowed to be extortionists). No system yet demonstrated has it all.
I'd say the lack of willingness to step up and take responsibility for national security, along with Korean currency issues, sure as hell are Korean problems.
Just like kids, the more you coddle, the more they take. Everybody is willing to be exactly as lazy as they can get away with. The UAW. The GM execs during the boom (and even declining) years. And countries, too. Why should Korea or Japan or Europe worry about paying a lot for defense when their rich uncle is helping out? That's our problem, not theirs. Which is why neither GM, nor the UAW, nor those other countries should be getting handouts.
You know who I think is most uptight about North Korea - China. That's why they placate them . I'm sure China would like to to see South Korea disappear as a business competitor. But China also knows that if war breaks out on the peninsula, it is going to have all kinds of spillover across their borders. China has another problem in my opinion - they are like a bull in a china shop. They are managing to alienate most all of their Asian neighbors. South Korea and China seem to have one similarity; while Japan is great at reverse engineering, China and S. Korea seem to prefer the industrial espionage route for product development.
Or what I described s like people who preach about hard work and success, while giving their own spawn a free ride and endless gifts, because "it's different", and paying for it with gains impossible for their generation-younger equivalents to make in the world today - but will look down upon those unable to reap the same rewards.
I want an egalitarian meritocracy. The Euro nanny-state doesn't have it, but neither does this cronyist/corporatist/borderline fascist devolution either. The former has surpassed us in economic mobility, however, not to mention in virtually every human development indicator.
If we are going to aid those countries and enable them to play here, no better way to get them to start paying back than to hold them accountable in an economic sense. And that's not the only jump they receive. Look into currency manipulation, Korea is experienced.
Well tiong, I fear politics will force a premature sale of GM stock.
In my view, politics has forced a delay in sale of GM stock. Can't show those big losses pointing out a bad investment right before the election!
The Volt, I see it as kind of a testbed toward future technologies (but perhaps with an Obama push!). Not a high volume vehicle, or in the sense of the auto industry economics and finance, a big dollar investment.
I don't agree. GM was doubling down with all their cards for YEARS on advertising this thing. And their projections for this year were 40-60K units - pretty substantial. I believe they hoped to have their own "Prius" in the market with this vehicle. Only it didn't work out that way.
The rest of your points I pretty much agree with. The Volt technology looks good if they can produce it economically. They are definitely improving, and we won't really know how it all turns out for at least 5-10 years.
If the US economy tanks in the nearer term, I wonder if the US Govt will feel compelled to bail GM out again if they get too fragile?
China has an achilles heel - virtually zero innovation for eons. And the culture doesn't encourage it today either - simply buy tech or steal it - uncle sam won't defend itself. And both South Korea and China have been greatly enabled by this nation.
Tiong, if you ever studied warfare, you know that over tolerating and placating countries tends to end ugly. In the end, America needs to take care of itself first or someone else will knock it on its [non-permissible content removed]. I think we are tolerating far too much unequal treatment from places like Korea and China. If you're a history buff, you know that over self indulgence led to the ultimate end of many empires from Greece to Rome. Sometimes I think Americans are getting that way, and that can be dangerous to our long term success I fear.
I want an egalitarian meritocracy. The Euro nanny-state doesn't have it, but neither does this cronyist/corporatist/borderline fascist devolution either. The former has surpassed us in economic mobility, however, not to mention in virtually every human development indicator.
No disagreement on the ideal. I wonder if human nature is fundamentally what keeps us from getting there? It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the basket.
If we are going to aid those countries and enable them to play here, no better way to get them to start paying back than to hold them accountable in an economic sense. And that's not the only jump they receive. Look into currency manipulation, Korea is experienced.
But why not quit aiding them instead? That's our addiction, and it complicates and messes up everything.
The egalitarian meritocracy would have let GM fail, and the good parts of that company (perhaps Caddy, trucks, etc.) would have been sold, restructured, or re-used where it made economic sense. The union would have dissolved and the jobs that weren't necessary would have vanished. And the freed workers would have gone into new companies, new business ventures, etc., and we would have had a deeper fall, but a stronger regrowth than we are now going to have.
Greed. It's good, ask people who bank in the Caribbean and Switzerland.
We won't quit aiding because we have a two party system, where those who profit from said aid influence both donkeys and elephants.
No politico embraces an ideal based on merit. Both of the front-runners today are equally as far from merit as is humanly possible. Another question is...could we have survived a deeper fall? Took a world war to get us out of the last one.
I think we are tolerating far too much unequal treatment from places like Korea and China.
In that sense, even Jimmy Carter would have been stronger than recent administrations.
Sometimes I think Americans are getting that way, and that can be dangerous to our long term success I fear.
Totally agree. But that's why I disagree with bailing out failed companies. It's part of the "I don't want any adversity" attitude of the current government and country. If we won't let anything fail, we aren't going to continue the self-pruning and creative destruction that ultimately keeps this country strong.
If the US economy tanks in the nearer term, I wonder if the US Govt will feel compelled to bail GM out again if they get too fragile?
Despite Europe and slowdowns in Asia, I don't think another US recession in the nearer term will be near as severe as what we saw a few years ago. I also think the balance sheets and cash flows in our auto industry are now much stronger. So I think any gov support would be like most other industries - back door supports, loans, etc. I'm thinking the next sectors due for serious problems are 1) state and local infrastructure failures and 2) tranportation. The railroads are pretty much fixed (incidentally, Buffet was an early investor there and initially bought a bit high). But airlines and trucking could be big problems if things don't start turning around faster.
As for the Volt, yes a disappointment for GM I'm sure, but still not a big program scale compared to say regular car or truck segments of the company. I think GM also needed to show some technology to both the gov and the marketplace in supporting its long term viability image.
GM stock sale will be complicated because of its size. Sell too much too fast and you hurt the company. GM is a value stock, so its not going to move with the velocity of a growth stock. Time to get nervous is if Buffet dumps it. While as a value investor he tends to hold for longer periods, history shows he can be quick on the trigger if the situation deteriorates.
In that sense, even Jimmy Carter would have been stronger than recent administrations.
Wow, now that might be a rather bold statement buddy (o:
Don't get me wrong, tactically I don't like bailing out companies either, but strategically sometimes you have to bailout an economy or key segment thereof. I guess that's why I really look at the GM bailout more as a jobs issue than a business segment one. That's also why I don't see a repeat for them anytime soon and I think Ackerson knows that. Also, transplant expansion is going to lessen the impact of a future GM failure a few years more down the road - but I really don't see this either because it seems to me that GM is becoming global.
I think you are underestimating the decline of the fiscal strength of this country. A country can not continue to run high deficits in the name of "stimulus" without that stimuli working at some point. The stimuli that we have seen over the last number of years under BOTH Rep. and Dem administrations has been ineffective. Maybe it has to do with trying to fight economic malaise caused by debt, by increasing debt?
So the stimulus is coming to an end, the Fed is low on ideas, the belt-tightening starts on Jan. 2, and frankly I wouldn't bet 2-cents on the global economy and companies like GM.
The hurricane warnings are out (Spain's lending rate is >7% again despite the short-term bump of the aid-promises). The global economic/financial/aging-population problems haven't been solved. Unemployment in the developed world is a huge problem that no one has an answer for. The way I see it - wealth has been transferred over the years from the U.S. and Europe to other areas of the world; a little more evenly distributed. That's still occurring.
The jobs and wealth are in decline here in the U.S. and the only thing keeping the decline right now to a minimum, is the unsustainable stimuli. Thus I guess it was good business strategy for GM to have China as it's #1 customer.
As for the Volt, yes a disappointment for GM I'm sure, but still not a big program scale compared to say regular car or truck segments of the company.
A world expo or car show is a good place to showcase technology that may not be ready for prime-time marketing. The Volt is in that category. Now actually building a factory and planning on selling 40K+ of a $40K+ vehicle that's main purpose is to save someone $10/week in energy, is "out of touch". I don't know many people who would pay an extra $20K for a Volt, over getting a Prius.
But one might also underestimate the creative potential of the US, even in this atmosphere, compared to the competition. It's not like our allies nor our foes are really in any better condition.
Wealth has moved from the developed world to the less developed world, but in that move has also moved from the working/"middle" class upwards. In terms of socio-economics here, the distribution is devolving. Trickle up economics. How long can it last?
Relying on China will come back to haunt GM, given the insane concessions demanded to operate in that market, and the shakiness of the place in general.
Creativity is all well-and-good in a stable environment. But the basic math of the 21st century and going forward (what other choice do we have!) is that population growth combined with globalization and the redistribution of wealth, and the facts of our limited resources - means that the U.S. and Europe are entering a unique set of circumstances.
Of course throw in all the secondary changes such as an aging population, more automation and less emphasis on actual labor, and you have the current situation.
Thus you have a situation where governments can't afford to give their populations what they're used to, the economy is only supported by going deeper into debt, and the usual stimulus theories of decades past have no lasting positive effect. How likely it is that 1/2 of the stimulus $ from years past probably went into Indian, Chinese, or OPEC pockets.
I totally agree with you that companies like GM should not be relying on China. I would argue that GM should not be allowed to sell any product into China that has technology newer than 10 years old. Anyone who has ever picked up a history book, should know that today's friend is tomorrow's potential war (and vice versa).
I would argue that GM should not be allowed to sell any product into China that has technology newer than 10 years old.
Similar to our sales of fighter aircraft. US companies do not sell latest technology planes to other countries. Could be easily decreed by our present administration in Washington DC.
How likely it is that 1/2 of the stimulus $ from years past probably went into Indian, Chinese, or OPEC pockets.
Or a European country to build an electric car. Wasn't that the car that had a big failure during a Consumer Reports test?
Despite all the anti immigration talk, that and a rising birthrate are going to be necessary to maintain our country in the future. Also, while we have the members of Congress who signed this multimillionaire lobbyist Norquist's pledge not to raise taxes (wonder how much payola he's funneling them), trickle down hasn't worked for quite awhile (including the past extension of Bush tax cuts); revenue, cost cutting and growth are all going to have to be part of the ultimate solution - don't believe all these idle political promises otherwise. You'll probably see some sloppy backdoor dealing after the elections. The lack of ethics, integrity and accountability in Washington is hurting this country badly. Unfortunately, I don't see either of the presidential candidates having the media skills like Clinton and Reagan did to raise the population up against these weenies in Congress and make something happen. It won't get fixed until there is a big crisis and retroactive solutions are usually less than stellar in results. But I still think America will pull itself through it "despite" Washington. Look for business leaders down the road taking the lead.
But nobody else with the same creative potential is any more stable. Where else is better when it comes to real progress or innovation? The real redistribution of wealth I am seeing right now is from the upper-lower through the middle, 95% of it going to the upper-upper. Some corporate shills running for office might not agree, but they aren't honest people.
I bet 1/2 of the stimulus went to China alone, via our trade policies.
Today's "most favored trading partner" (yeah, what a partnership) will be tomorrow's foe - if not in a real war, in a new cold war. The huge amount of sacrifice needed to reap short term profit there is mindblowing. Enter our idiotic executive/managerial class...
Immigration is fine when based on quality rather than quantity. Otherwise, there are other birthrate solutions.
Trickle down has handicapped the country at least as much as unproductive social programs. It's going to take a revolution in popular brainwashed thought to move away from it.
Now c'mon guys - isn't this really just a way to say I don't like GM getting gov money, but its OK for Hyundai to get Korean gov money? Seems to me that you should either stay away from all companies that get gov money, or stop selectively criticizing only the American ones. Otherwise, it all just comes off as one giant "copout" that it's really about not liking D3 vehicles rather than gov subsidies...and honestly it all starts to sound like people who got burned by GM once and like to use any angle to slam the company no matter what they do. The BK is over, it won't likely happen again. Going forward, GM either survives or not based on how they perform down the road. The executive suite has been totally changed so history really becomes rather irrelevant going forward. Why keep drudging it up?
Hey Circlew , it's OK to just admit you just don't like GM and I can admit I'm not fond of Hyunkia. It is a free market in our country open to our individual choices, unlike Korea.
Thanks to our Asian and European friends, I think GM's chances of returning to it's past greatness are slim to none.. The remaining shares that the Govt needs to dump are beginning to look like a bad joke for the taxpayers...Another smoke and mirror job laid on the public by our "money printing White House"...Maybe the Federal Reserve will buy up the remaining shares at $50.00 a share and the libs can tell us "GM was saved" by the swift action of our POTUS..
Ford doesn't look too healthy with it's European sales tanking and with Chyrsler's boss, Sergio Marchionne, not doubt a capable leader, however with the overseas marriage encompassing Fiat, Alfa Romeo, and Maserati makes one a little queasy..
Sitting at the stoplight this morning waiting for the light to change, I counted 7 cars of which 6 were Camrys, and my lone Grand Prix GT, somewhat of a rarity among the Japanese appliance-cars... I shouldn't complain for my 3rd garage stall houses one, not mine, only the gas, insurance, and upkeep is mine, it is overdo on oil change, 14mos/4k mi..Love to go to the Toyota dealer in Venice, beautiful layout, and they always fly spec the car for problems, last visit 14 mos. ago they spotted an estimated $875 potential problems, leaking water pump, valve cover oil leak and fan belt..Fantasy world !!!! In fourteen months I had the battery replaced and the a/c relay for $200 at my independent auto shop 2 blocks away..
Once again the Toyota dealership is a delight to visit, everything is new, clean, and they are eager to fix....Maybe my senior appearance makes me the "mark"..
I also thought my gray hair made some think I was an easy mark. I had them tell me struts were bad, brake pads were worn, front tie rod ends were loose, and a hub bearing (it was worn).
I put the struts on myself at home. I have the tie rod ends to replace when I get around tuit. The front bearing I changed at home after they pointed it out. It was just barely worn using GM's test specified in the factory service many. I suspect the service guys in the bays would be surprised I did all that myself. The service manager of the store knows me.
I also thought my gray hair made some think I was an easy mark. I had them tell me struts were bad, brake pads were worn, front tie rod ends were loose, and a hub bearing (it was worn).
I think this is a problem will all auto dealers (or at least all makes, perhaps not all dealers). Some of them try to get more work by wanting to repair marginal items, or by adding all kinds of nonstandard "services" to the mfr recommended service. I found out the hard way at a Mercury dealer back in the day - I asked for the 90K service and when I got the vehicle back, they had done a radiator flush (not in the recommended service) but had NOT done the air cleaner replacement! Gee, I thought the reason we had higher-priced-than-independent mechanic dealers was their expertise and "factory certification". You need to always specify the exact service needed, even if it means listing everything that's already printed in the owner's manual - and nothing else!
"Buyers of model year 2012 or 2013 Chevrolet branded vehicles can return their purchases within 60 days, for any reason, under the new "Love it or Return it" offer running through Sept. 4. Vehicles must be driven fewer than 4,000 miles and undamaged. At the same time, GM is offering what it calls "no haggle pricing" on 2012 Chevrolet models it wants to clear off dealer lots by the fall."
Too bad this move is too late for my daughter's boyfriend's Cruze. They had to open the engine twice now. If it happens a third time it's lemon law time.
If it will behave itself from here on in that's fine, too....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I went to Chevy's website yesterday when I saw this, and I priced a few of their vehicles with the no-haggle price. Well, unless you're used to paying MSRP, there's no reason to get excited about this offer. You get somewhere between $500 and $1,000 off most models - a few %. And I don't see mention where you get a rebate or specail financing with this.
So if anything, this would actually be a price increase, if that's all there is to it.
And then you ahve the fact that no-haggle pricing never worked well for Saturn. Even when Saturn had decent products, they weren't selling many vehicles.
I really don't think many car buyers are going to be fooled by this supposed discount, which really is an attempt to get rid of the rebates and get a HIGHER transaction price.
My last new car bought in early '08 - a Mazda, stickered for $28K+change. The discount was over $2K and the rebate was $4,500, so the car was basically $22K.
That's the sort of discounts that would get me to look, to buy.
My last new car bought in early '08 - a Mazda, stickered for $28K+change. The discount was over $2K and the rebate was $4,500, so the car was basically $22K.
That's the sort of discounts that would get me to look, to buy.
I too got over $6000 off the sticker of my wife's 2008 Saturn Aura. I also bought a new 2006 Silverado work truck for $14K. Unfortunately those kind of deals are gone forever. It might be possible on $40k+ pickups & SUVs but not on mainstream vehicles in the $20K-$30K range.
Auto manufacturers cannot afford to sell them for less than what it cost to make them, and I don't think we'll see any more bailouts.
Well I read a lot of the stories on Marketwatch (CBS financial site), and it sure sounds like GM's #1 market is slowing down in general. Also I was reading yesterday that many local Chinese governments had bought large fleets of new vehicles on borrowed $ from the Central government. Well the central government in China is asking to be repaid now - loans are due, and many of those local governments are dumping 85% of their vehicles into the market. So that means that not only won't those governments be buying vehicles, but that there will be a lot of newer used vehicles in their market.
Things also continue to deteriorate in Europe. Peugeot is closing 1 plant and laying off 8,000 workers. I'd suggest to GM to get ahead of this issue, and act quickly with Opel and any other exposure they have. If GM had been liquidated, then the New GM that could have been formed from the ashes, would have been able to get rid of these issues that will plague them currently.
GM should have liquidated, the U.S. government helped provide the backing to create a New GM the next week, minus any of the issues. The New GM could have been free of the UAW, free of excess dealers, free of divisions they didn't want, and generally free to reinvent itself. It was a missed opportunity in my opinion; one that was rejected because of the interests of those in power.
GM should have liquidated, the U.S. government helped provide the backing to create a New GM the next week, minus any of the issues. The New GM could have been free of the UAW, free of excess dealers, free of divisions they didn't want, and generally free to reinvent itself. It was a missed opportunity in my opinion; one that was rejected because of the interests of those in power.
That just about says my feelings as well, very well put.
Instead of being happy we "saved jobs" I lament the enormous costs and what might have been had we done this correctly.
I think most of the Peugeot production is coming from Iran..We have a liberal running France since the last election, POTUS is probably planning a long vacation for his family on the French Rivera..and wanted to pave the way with a few 'Greenbacks."
Welfare Reform was gutted by POTUS, so it's mating season in Detroit...
Few words about GM, looking for a 2006-2008 STS, under 20k miles w/sunroof, Fla car, and always garaged..Tired of waiting on the Mustang GT..
Comments
Outstanding Point! Looks like our WAY isn't the Best WAY, either.
You mean Caddy ISN'T the standard of the world?
Caddy is the "Standard in their own Mind". The rest of the world knows better!
Regards,
OW
I'd say there is *some* point to what you say. But it would be a lot more palatable if the enormous bailout (and loss of taxpayer dollars forever, realistically) was invested in a business that really looked capable of future substantial earnings and success. Propagating the UAW contracts, losing business ventures like the Volt, and continued "it's pretty good, ahhh, they're slowly getting better" is not where I feel warm and fuzzy putting our billions. In that sense, what Hyundai is doing looks a LOT better to me than where GM is at the moment. Nobody likes making poor investments.
Laws in regards to business and finance are what a few people pay for...which is why I didn't only say prosecute... Maybe it's time for some ex-post-facto justice. We did it at Nuremberg, and many people floating around the FIRE industries are just as bad as the sinister figures there.
I'd say the lack of willingness to step up and take responsibility for national security, along with Korean currency issues, sure as hell are Korean problems.
"isn't this really just a way to say I don't like GM getting gov money, but its OK for Hyundai to get Korean gov money?"
That's the mentality of the American "capitalist". Double standards, hypocrisy.
If Hyunkia was competent and the best, it wouldn't receive constant coddling to this day.
I was out in my old car today, and talked to a guy in a Sorento, who was eyeing my old ride. He said he likes old cars, as in his words, his new car gets a dent when you sneeze near it :shades:
We either get to give similar aid, or we can penalize them to compensate for it. No other options. Or maybe we can pull out and let the North and maybe the Russians play with them. Might hurt Samsung and Starcraft... They really aren't in a position to hold their way over us.
"Standard of the World" is a 100+ year old marketing slogan, relating to standardized parts. Caddy is misusing it now, and so are those who mock it.
Seems that a lot of our competitors who are kicking our butts in many regards have much more governmental oversight of industry. Not to mention socialized common good programs that make "capitalists" here break into apoplectic fits.
So let's think Forward in what we do.
In fact, those who find the idea of governments having any involvment in private business, probably need to look at a whole lot of goods that they purchase from Japan, China, Korea, usw. If they're going to be purists, choose only US companies and preferably products built in US or at least US/Can/Mex.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The initlal Bush/Paulsen decisions were made long before Obama. What Bush did I believe, is leave the next step up to the next president and Congress (don't forget that the latter were also involved). I once read, I think in the WSJ or Business Week, where Bush was asked about his decision on the bailouts. His reply was essentially that while he didn't like gov bailouts, sometimes you have to make the decision based on the country's needs at the moment. He didn't lay it all on Obama and honestly I don't think he is the type to try and place the blame for everything on someone else. If you've ever spent a lot of time in Texas, you know Texans by nature generally aren't blame passers because they tend to be do'ers.
It looks like if you want all citizens helped, Europe is probably the best current system (but is it sustainable?). If you want a system that produces the most innovation, the US has the best system (but it doesn't coddle as much, and the weak are left behind, and the rich are allowed to be extortionists). No system yet demonstrated has it all.
I'd say the lack of willingness to step up and take responsibility for national security, along with Korean currency issues, sure as hell are Korean problems.
Just like kids, the more you coddle, the more they take. Everybody is willing to be exactly as lazy as they can get away with. The UAW. The GM execs during the boom (and even declining) years. And countries, too. Why should Korea or Japan or Europe worry about paying a lot for defense when their rich uncle is helping out? That's our problem, not theirs. Which is why neither GM, nor the UAW, nor those other countries should be getting handouts.
That's the mentality of the American "capitalist". Double standards, hypocrisy.
Isn't the converse of that something like "the neighbors beat their kids, so it's ok if we beat our kids, too?".
In this example, the opposite of hypocrisy is excusing your own bad behavior because others are doing it.
Or what I described s like people who preach about hard work and success, while giving their own spawn a free ride and endless gifts, because "it's different", and paying for it with gains impossible for their generation-younger equivalents to make in the world today - but will look down upon those unable to reap the same rewards.
If we are going to aid those countries and enable them to play here, no better way to get them to start paying back than to hold them accountable in an economic sense. And that's not the only jump they receive. Look into currency manipulation, Korea is experienced.
In my view, politics has forced a delay in sale of GM stock. Can't show those big losses pointing out a bad investment right before the election!
The Volt, I see it as kind of a testbed toward future technologies (but perhaps with an Obama push!). Not a high volume vehicle, or in the sense of the auto industry economics and finance, a big dollar investment.
I don't agree. GM was doubling down with all their cards for YEARS on advertising this thing. And their projections for this year were 40-60K units - pretty substantial. I believe they hoped to have their own "Prius" in the market with this vehicle. Only it didn't work out that way.
The rest of your points I pretty much agree with. The Volt technology looks good if they can produce it economically. They are definitely improving, and we won't really know how it all turns out for at least 5-10 years.
If the US economy tanks in the nearer term, I wonder if the US Govt will feel compelled to bail GM out again if they get too fragile?
No disagreement on the ideal. I wonder if human nature is fundamentally what keeps us from getting there? It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the basket.
If we are going to aid those countries and enable them to play here, no better way to get them to start paying back than to hold them accountable in an economic sense. And that's not the only jump they receive. Look into currency manipulation, Korea is experienced.
But why not quit aiding them instead? That's our addiction, and it complicates and messes up everything.
The egalitarian meritocracy would have let GM fail, and the good parts of that company (perhaps Caddy, trucks, etc.) would have been sold, restructured, or re-used where it made economic sense. The union would have dissolved and the jobs that weren't necessary would have vanished. And the freed workers would have gone into new companies, new business ventures, etc., and we would have had a deeper fall, but a stronger regrowth than we are now going to have.
We won't quit aiding because we have a two party system, where those who profit from said aid influence both donkeys and elephants.
No politico embraces an ideal based on merit. Both of the front-runners today are equally as far from merit as is humanly possible. Another question is...could we have survived a deeper fall? Took a world war to get us out of the last one.
In that sense, even Jimmy Carter would have been stronger than recent administrations.
Sometimes I think Americans are getting that way, and that can be dangerous to our long term success I fear.
Totally agree. But that's why I disagree with bailing out failed companies. It's part of the "I don't want any adversity" attitude of the current government and country. If we won't let anything fail, we aren't going to continue the self-pruning and creative destruction that ultimately keeps this country strong.
Despite Europe and slowdowns in Asia, I don't think another US recession in the nearer term will be near as severe as what we saw a few years ago. I also think the balance sheets and cash flows in our auto industry are now much stronger. So I think any gov support would be like most other industries - back door supports, loans, etc. I'm thinking the next sectors due for serious problems are 1) state and local infrastructure failures and 2) tranportation. The railroads are pretty much fixed (incidentally, Buffet was an early investor there and initially bought a bit high). But airlines and trucking could be big problems if things don't start turning around faster.
As for the Volt, yes a disappointment for GM I'm sure, but still not a big program scale compared to say regular car or truck segments of the company. I think GM also needed to show some technology to both the gov and the marketplace in supporting its long term viability image.
GM stock sale will be complicated because of its size. Sell too much too fast and you hurt the company. GM is a value stock, so its not going to move with the velocity of a growth stock. Time to get nervous is if Buffet dumps it. While as a value investor he tends to hold for longer periods, history shows he can be quick on the trigger if the situation deteriorates.
Wow, now that might be a rather bold statement buddy (o:
Don't get me wrong, tactically I don't like bailing out companies either, but strategically sometimes you have to bailout an economy or key segment thereof. I guess that's why I really look at the GM bailout more as a jobs issue than a business segment one. That's also why I don't see a repeat for them anytime soon and I think Ackerson knows that. Also, transplant expansion is going to lessen the impact of a future GM failure a few years more down the road - but I really don't see this either because it seems to me that GM is becoming global.
So the stimulus is coming to an end, the Fed is low on ideas, the belt-tightening starts on Jan. 2, and frankly I wouldn't bet 2-cents on the global economy and companies like GM.
The hurricane warnings are out (Spain's lending rate is >7% again despite the short-term bump of the aid-promises). The global economic/financial/aging-population problems haven't been solved. Unemployment in the developed world is a huge problem that no one has an answer for. The way I see it - wealth has been transferred over the years from the U.S. and Europe to other areas of the world; a little more evenly distributed. That's still occurring.
The jobs and wealth are in decline here in the U.S. and the only thing keeping the decline right now to a minimum, is the unsustainable stimuli. Thus I guess it was good business strategy for GM to have China as it's #1 customer.
A world expo or car show is a good place to showcase technology that may not be ready for prime-time marketing. The Volt is in that category. Now actually building a factory and planning on selling 40K+ of a $40K+ vehicle that's main purpose is to save someone $10/week in energy, is "out of touch". I don't know many people who would pay an extra $20K for a Volt, over getting a Prius.
Wealth has moved from the developed world to the less developed world, but in that move has also moved from the working/"middle" class upwards. In terms of socio-economics here, the distribution is devolving. Trickle up economics. How long can it last?
Relying on China will come back to haunt GM, given the insane concessions demanded to operate in that market, and the shakiness of the place in general.
Of course throw in all the secondary changes such as an aging population, more automation and less emphasis on actual labor, and you have the current situation.
Thus you have a situation where governments can't afford to give their populations what they're used to, the economy is only supported by going deeper into debt, and the usual stimulus theories of decades past have no lasting positive effect. How likely it is that 1/2 of the stimulus $ from years past probably went into Indian, Chinese, or OPEC pockets.
I totally agree with you that companies like GM should not be relying on China. I would argue that GM should not be allowed to sell any product into China that has technology newer than 10 years old. Anyone who has ever picked up a history book, should know that today's friend is tomorrow's potential war (and vice versa).
Similar to our sales of fighter aircraft. US companies do not sell latest technology planes to other countries. Could be easily decreed by our present administration in Washington DC.
How likely it is that 1/2 of the stimulus $ from years past probably went into Indian, Chinese, or OPEC pockets.
Or a European country to build an electric car. Wasn't that the car that had a big failure during a Consumer Reports test?
I bet 1/2 of the stimulus went to China alone, via our trade policies.
Today's "most favored trading partner" (yeah, what a partnership) will be tomorrow's foe - if not in a real war, in a new cold war. The huge amount of sacrifice needed to reap short term profit there is mindblowing. Enter our idiotic executive/managerial class...
Trickle down has handicapped the country at least as much as unproductive social programs. It's going to take a revolution in popular brainwashed thought to move away from it.
Now c'mon guys - isn't this really just a way to say I don't like GM getting gov money, but its OK for Hyundai to get Korean gov money? Seems to me that you should either stay away from all companies that get gov money, or stop selectively criticizing only the American ones. Otherwise, it all just comes off as one giant "copout" that it's really about not liking D3 vehicles rather than gov subsidies...and honestly it all starts to sound like people who got burned by GM once and like to use any angle to slam the company no matter what they do. The BK is over, it won't likely happen again. Going forward, GM either survives or not based on how they perform down the road. The executive suite has been totally changed so history really becomes rather irrelevant going forward. Why keep drudging it up?
Because it ain't over! Duh!
Regards,
OW
look like a bad joke for the taxpayers...Another smoke and mirror job laid on the public by our "money printing White House"...Maybe the Federal Reserve will buy up the remaining shares at $50.00 a share and the libs can tell us "GM was saved" by the swift action of our POTUS..
Ford doesn't look too healthy with it's European sales tanking and with Chyrsler's boss, Sergio Marchionne, not doubt a capable leader, however with the overseas marriage encompassing Fiat, Alfa Romeo, and Maserati makes one a little queasy..
Sitting at the stoplight this morning waiting for the light to change, I counted 7 cars of which 6 were Camrys, and my lone Grand Prix GT, somewhat of a rarity among the Japanese appliance-cars... I shouldn't complain for my 3rd garage stall houses one, not mine, only the gas, insurance, and upkeep is mine, it is overdo on oil change, 14mos/4k mi..Love to go to the Toyota dealer in Venice, beautiful layout, and they always fly spec the car for problems, last visit 14 mos. ago they spotted an estimated $875 potential problems, leaking water pump, valve cover oil leak and fan belt..Fantasy world !!!! In fourteen months I had the battery replaced and the a/c relay for $200 at my independent auto shop 2 blocks away..
Once again the Toyota dealership is a delight to visit, everything is new, clean, and they are eager to fix....Maybe my senior appearance makes me the "mark"..
I also thought my gray hair made some think I was an easy mark. I had them tell me struts were bad, brake pads were worn, front tie rod ends were loose, and a hub bearing (it was worn).
I put the struts on myself at home. I have the tie rod ends to replace when I get around tuit. The front bearing I changed at home after they pointed it out. It was just barely worn using GM's test specified in the factory service many. I suspect the service guys in the bays would be surprised I did all that myself. The service manager of the store knows me.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You mean I actually have to admit it? After all I've posted?
Here's a picture that depicts the huge path GM built leading to the competition over the lost decades. It's not about me!
Hard to close that gap! Global or not!
Regards,
OW
I think this is a problem will all auto dealers (or at least all makes, perhaps not all dealers). Some of them try to get more work by wanting to repair marginal items, or by adding all kinds of nonstandard "services" to the mfr recommended service. I found out the hard way at a Mercury dealer back in the day - I asked for the 90K service and when I got the vehicle back, they had done a radiator flush (not in the recommended service) but had NOT done the air cleaner replacement! Gee, I thought the reason we had higher-priced-than-independent mechanic dealers was their expertise and "factory certification". You need to always specify the exact service needed, even if it means listing everything that's already printed in the owner's manual - and nothing else!
GM Tries 'No-Haggle' Prices (Wall St. Journal)
If it will behave itself from here on in that's fine, too....
So if anything, this would actually be a price increase, if that's all there is to it.
And then you ahve the fact that no-haggle pricing never worked well for Saturn. Even when Saturn had decent products, they weren't selling many vehicles.
I really don't think many car buyers are going to be fooled by this supposed discount, which really is an attempt to get rid of the rebates and get a HIGHER transaction price.
That's the sort of discounts that would get me to look, to buy.
That's the sort of discounts that would get me to look, to buy.
I too got over $6000 off the sticker of my wife's 2008 Saturn Aura.
I also bought a new 2006 Silverado work truck for $14K. Unfortunately those kind of deals are gone forever. It might be possible on $40k+ pickups & SUVs but not on mainstream vehicles in the $20K-$30K range.
Auto manufacturers cannot afford to sell them for less than what it cost to make them, and I don't think we'll see any more bailouts.
Well I read a lot of the stories on Marketwatch (CBS financial site), and it sure sounds like GM's #1 market is slowing down in general. Also I was reading yesterday that many local Chinese governments had bought large fleets of new vehicles on borrowed $ from the Central government. Well the central government in China is asking to be repaid now - loans are due, and many of those local governments are dumping 85% of their vehicles into the market. So that means that not only won't those governments be buying vehicles, but that there will be a lot of newer used vehicles in their market.
Things also continue to deteriorate in Europe. Peugeot is closing 1 plant and laying off 8,000 workers. I'd suggest to GM to get ahead of this issue, and act quickly with Opel and any other exposure they have. If GM had been liquidated, then the New GM that could have been formed from the ashes, would have been able to get rid of these issues that will plague them currently.
GM should have liquidated, the U.S. government helped provide the backing to create a New GM the next week, minus any of the issues. The New GM could have been free of the UAW, free of excess dealers, free of divisions they didn't want, and generally free to reinvent itself. It was a missed opportunity in my opinion; one that was rejected because of the interests of those in power.
That just about says my feelings as well, very well put.
Instead of being happy we "saved jobs" I lament the enormous costs and what might have been had we done this correctly.
These clowns continue to take the taxpayers for fools... :sick:
Whew, good to see that 2 billion $$$ infusion is being put to good use. :sick:
Welfare Reform was gutted by POTUS, so it's mating season in Detroit...
Few words about GM, looking for a 2006-2008 STS, under 20k miles w/sunroof, Fla car, and always garaged..Tired of waiting on the Mustang GT..