GM News, New Models and Market Share

circlew

There were actual fires. Yes, BIG WHOOP. :lemon:



Regards,
OW

fezo

My biggest concern with the Cruze is that my daughter's boyfriend's Cruze has now had the engine taken apart twice under warranty. I'm hoping for a third so he start over.

That said I haven't hear a ton of problems. I think he just got the lemon.

uplanderguy

Wow, I thought that photo would have been taken by 'anythingbutgm', the 'Forrest Gump' of the group!

I think this recall is far worse than the Sonic's, simply because the numbers are so much greater. I never did hear if any other Sonic besides the one actually had a missing brake pad.

circlew

Agreed. This recall is one step down from the Toyota accelerator recall.

GM said it had identified about 30 fires that could be related. It said it didn't know of any crashes, injuries or deaths related to the issue.

"Improper engine oil change procedures on these vehicles can result in the spilling or dripping of oil," GM said. "If oil contacts hot engine or exhaust system surfaces, and the engine shield, the shield may ignite and burn, resulting in a possible engine compartment fire."

Free repairs to the Cruze are expected to take 30 minutes at a dealer, GM said.

But the recall is a blemish for GM just two days after it had achieved its best-ever performance on J.D. Power & Associates' Initial Quality Study. Chevrolet narrowly beat the industry average for quality problems in the survey.

Regardless, GM is increasing it's quality as the older models go away. GM remains a few steps back from the top quality manufactures in reality.

Regards,
OW

imidazol97

Have you had oil on your Cobalt's engine after changing the oil filter? Have you ahd oil around the dipstick hole in the engine cover after adding/checking oil?

I just wipe mine with a shop cloth or paper shop rag and clean it up. So simple? The problem here is likely to be that people are using monkey shops rather than dealerships where oil is cleaned up after servicing or is done cleanly to being with.

The Sonic's missing brake pad was just an assembly error. Not repeatable.

I put this recall in the minor category with the floor mat level--where it was used as an idiocentric cause of uncontrolled acceleration, which actually had other causes which have not yet been truthfully explained.

If this is the etymology of a few engine fires for Cruze, it's like the seeping aged valve cover gaskets on 3800s where the oil can flow down the head onto the exhaust. I still don't see how those cause fires. If I get oil on an exhaust, there's a horrible smell. Don't people notice that smell and get it serviced? It's like my service manager at the Buick dealer said long ago about some vehicles and owners--they just drive the car from A to B until something is way past servicing and then wonder why it went bad.

Gotta give GM acclaim for coming right up with acknowledgement of the shop problem and fixing the cover. I'll have to stop by the local Chev dealer to look at the current US cover on the engine. Too bad I don't already have a Cruze in the garage at home so I could just go out and look.

I put the power window switch shorting or overheating and causing fires much above this--that was on the toyota group of products and on a few GM products sourced from two different suppliers, indeed! Like the cruise controls modules that Ford had for a time that might deteriorate and short causing fires.

andre1969

With the Juke and that other small convertible pictured earlier, I don't want to hear anyone mentioned the Aztek in other than respectful terms

Heck, I think we have the Aztek to thank (or blame) for the state of automotive style today! With its odd proportions, thick pillars, tall, clumsy beltline, overstyled headlights, and various components that look like they were styled by different committees who had no communication with each other, it's the very embodiment of modern automotive styling!

Funny thing is, I think the Aztek could have worked, if the stylists had been given more freedom. But, forcing them to work off the minivan platform really hurt them. That's what gave it the odd proportions and high beltline. As I recall, the original concept, while hardly a thing of beauty, was at least slicker looking, and less clunky.

Here's a production Aztek that's been either modified, Photoshopped, or a bit of both. I think it actually looks pretty sharp, considering the source material. Lowering it and rounding off the wheel arches to match with the wheels really helps alot, IMO.

imidazol97

Nicely done Aztek!

I still think in some solid colors the Aztek is fine for the time period. A lady down the road has one in a dark brownish red. It's all one color.

andre1969

it's like the seeping aged valve cover gaskets on 3800s where the oil can flow down the head onto the exhaust. I still don't see how those cause fires. If I get oil on an exhaust, there's a horrible smell.

Just about every old Mopar I've ever owned would drop oil on the exhaust every time I changed the filter. I'd just wipe up what I could, and let the rest burn off. It would pretty much just evaporate, but wouldn't catch fire.

So, when the Honda CR-V's started catching on fire awhile back, because of that "double-gasketing" issue with the oil filters, I didn't understand it at first. I think what happens though, is that if the oil squirts out at high pressure, in a thin enough stream, it can ignite, rather than just burn off, like on my old Mopars.

Once, on my '68 Dart, when the motor mount on the passenger side collapsed, the engine tilted over and the oil filter actually touched the exhaust. It burned a hole in it, and started leaking oil. But, it simply smoked and burned off.

busiris

Certainly, from a $$$$ point of view, the Sonic recall pales in comparison.

And, because the Sonic was so new, it appears it got, to a large extent, a "free pass" on the brake recall.

For anyone serious about purchasing a Cruze, I doubt this recall had much effect. The fix is finite and simple. However, if fires continue to be reported on cars after they have been modified, all bets are off.

The vast majority of folks like simple, easy to understand fixes. When the fixes start to get complicated, they start losing confidence.

fintail

Wow,the wheelarches do a lot. GM designers (bean counters, marketers) should be ashamed of themselves - on the cusp of success once again.

fezo

I remember when Lutz came in and started hacking away at designs and improving current stuff as much as he could. He took the cladding off of pretty much all the Pontiacs. The no cladding Aztek looked way better. I knew several people that had them.

ab348

When I owned my '85 Toyota MR2, every time I had the oil changed at the dealer they would spill some on the exhaust manifold. The first time it happened I noticed this cloud of smoke in the rearview mirror coming through the vents of the engine cover and brought it right back to them. I thought my engine was on fire. They paid it no great mind and wiped it down, then sent me on my way. But it happened every single time they did it after that as well. Why, I dunno. On that same car there was a large pipe plug threaded into the exhaust manifold to block a hole that was apparently for some kind of sensor my car did not have, and that thing came loose every 6 months or so. The sound was pretty awful when it did. They never could fix it permanently.

fintail

Avalanche eventually lost its cladding too. I bet the same person signed off on both - and that same person is still employed by GM with a healthy 6 figure salary and benefits that could choke an ox.

Aztek was homely, but the idea wasn't bad - just the execution. I find many other cars much easier to hate.

fezo

Back in I want to say 01 I won an Edmunds contest along with a bunch of other folks and they took us to the NY Auto Show. This was when the Aztek was out but the Rendezvous wasn't yet - they were showing off at the show.

Pontiac made the best of a bad situation and had several Azteks out there including one with the tent which I actually liked. When I went over to Buick and asked if you could get the tent with a Rendezvous he had a whole canned speech about how the Rendezvous had nothing to do with the Aztek. Yeah. OK. Fine....

ab348

I had an Aztek for a rental once back in '01. You might remember that since they were stacked up like cordwood on dealer lots, GM unloaded thousands of them onto the rental fleets. It actually wasn't a bad drive but I remember getting numerous stares from people in other cars while in traffic - they were still pretty new then. I can only imagine what they were thinking.

I was, I am ashamed to admit, a participant in the Edmunds Aztek forum back then and joined in with the piling on for this poor vehicle. But I was proud of this post I made, discussing the positives about Aztek ownership:

So I got to thinking, what are the advantages to Aztek ownership? I found a surprising number. Maybe you can add more. But if you own an Aztek you enjoy:

1. No problem finding your vehicle in crowded parking lots. Not only is it visually obvious, but no one will park within 3 spots of you.
2. Theft insurance premium waived by insurance company.
3. Pontiac dealer not only adds you to Christmas card list, but will be eternally grateful for taking it off the lot as long as you don't try to trade it in a few years down the road.
4. No need for costly washing, waxing and maintenance to protect resale value, since there is none.
5. No need for costly Viper anti theft security system.
6. You can explain away door dings and minor accident damage as factory "styling" feature.

fezo

I remember that forum!

My contribution was "You're the only person pulling into the parking lost that doesn't have to look at that Aztek!"

fintail

I find the Rendezvous just as offensive as the Aztek, maybe even more as it has no point. I remember had one as a rental on a work trip once...nothing really went wrong, just ugly aesthetics.

imidazol97

>out how the Rendezvous had nothing to do with the Aztek.

I recall that pulling up behiind an Aztek and Rendezvous the rear suspensions looked different. I don't remember what those were now. The goldfish have gone around the bowl too many times for me to remember.

lemko

Wow, that almosts looks presentable. I like what the customizer did with the exhaust. Still, I wouldn't be caught dead in it or any other manufacturer's crossover. I hate minivans, crossovers, and SUVs in that order.

lemko

Shoot, just about EVERY old car has old seeping somewhere. Look at how many have oil seeping near the valve covers.

lemko

Yecch! For a couple of years, Buick had two other vehicles that most definitely had no business having a Buick tri-shield on them! The Rainier and the Terraza immediately come to mind. A Buick minivan? Vomitrocious!

fintail

Just more rebadged junk that made people loathe GM a little more. The overpaid suits there don't understand brand equity, how it can be damaged, and how repairs can take eons. Not just a Buick minivan, but one that wasn't particularly good in any way.

uplanderguy

Shoot, just about EVERY old car has old seeping somewhere. Look at how many have oil seeping near the valve covers.

Matter of fact, my '66 Stude's Chevy 283 is pooling oil in the crevasses of the manifold on top, after a run. It's only on the left side. I've got to tighten the valve cover bolts before I take it to a meet about 75 miles away in a week or so. I hope that's all it is, as I want to drive it to South Bend (4 1/2 hrs.) in a little over a month for the Studebaker Drivers' Club International Meet. The fellow from Australia who bought my '63 and '64 Daytonas last year will be there and I'd like to meet him.

ateixeira

Even Saab got one. GM was unstoppable with bad rebadges.

At least now the Enclave doesn't look or feel the other Lambdas.

busiris

If minor oil leaks by themselves caused vehicle fires, the nation's interstates would be lined with burned out hulks from Maine to Florida.

It isn't that engines leak oil, but rather what the oil gets onto.

In the Cruze case, I highly suspect it's the catalytic converter that ignited the oil that caused the cars to burn. That's the hottest component under the hood that is exposed to some degree, and that's why they are shielded.

In the early days of catalytic converters, it wasn't unusual for cars to have inadequate heat shielding, and I personally have seen many burned cars destroyed because the driver parked in a grassy area and the grass came into contact with the converter, igniting it, and the car.

It happened to my dad, in a new 1978 Grand Prix. Fortunately, he was standing next to the car and was able to immediately hop in and move it, thereby saving it. Had he not stopped to talk with a friend when he got out, his car would have been toast... Quite literally!

fezo

I was going to say that if your Studie is seeping oil you should take it back to the manufacturer but I see you are already doing that....

uplanderguy

I have a dear friend who was the Studebaker dealer in our hometown...his father ran the agency from '26 'til his death in early '63 and my friend ran it the last few years. When we both get back toour hometown in the summer, I'll drive a Stude to the potluck dinner he and his wife throw at the VFW pavilion in town for old friends. I'll yell, "Hey buddy, know where I can get somebody to work on this thing?" and he'll yell back, "No idea at all"! You probably would have to be there but it makes me smile.

ray80

'Here's a production Aztek that's been either modified, Photoshopped, or a bit of both. I think it actually looks pretty sharp, considering the source material. Lowering it and rounding off the wheel arches to match with the wheels really helps alot, IMO. '

I believe that is the 'Aztek from H*LL' 650HP V8, rear wheel drive ,roll cage, single side exhaust and a bunch of other stuff. Not a real street machine

busiris

Something you might be interested in...

Coming back from lunch about an hour ago, I passed a 1953 Nash Rambler 2-door station wagon. White cream exterior paint. Couldn't get a good look at the interior, and by the time I got to where I could turn around and try to catch him, he was gone.

From what I could tell, the car, at least on the outside, was in mint condition.

ateixeira

http://www.totalcarscore.com/car-reviews/news-stories/total-car-score-top-10-bes- t-american-cars-for-2012

Though I'm not sure why they count CTS and CTS-V separately.

2 Lambdas also made the list.

tjc78

My car made #2!! Woo Hoo.... :shades:

imidazol97

The totalscore info was done by a Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Total Car Score.
Edmunds had or has a Karl Brauer. Any connection?

stever

The same. Karl left, oh, a year or so ago to start Total Car Score.

circlew

IMO, you need to change the valve cover gaskets. Tightening only goes so far.

Hope your fix works short term.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Exactly. If it's designed correctly, no fires are possible.

Regards,
OW

kernick

Hey, if you want to support "baseball, apple-pie, and Chevrolet for the 4th" get on your broker's website and buy some GM stock. The stock is near it's year-low.

Also a report out today, is that U.S. manufacturing has ended its small recovery, and we're now back in contraction mode. I don't see the issues in Europe solved, or the problems in DC being solved anytime soon. So if you do buy some GM stock, remember that these are the "Good Times" right now, and the stimulus is wearing off and the budget cuts are yet to come.

motorcity6

With the Govt running the auto company it's really a mystery as to the stock pricing spread..Very hard to believe anything run by the jackals in Washington..The Asian and European transplants in the USA are quickly devouring the pure American car..The remaining shares held by the government are rumored that $50/share is needed for the taxpayer to exit the GM buyout without losing on the takeover...Clever accounting and lots of snake oil will be the answer to "GM's Worth".

Ford is starting to bled on it's European operations and Chrysler is an unknown with it's Italian ownership..I've exited the auto industry in 2002 as a parts supplier and have witnessed the demise of the supply base, however most of the Asian assembly plants obtain their parts from suppliers in the US owned by Asian companies..

One thing we know is that the car pricing will continue to rise and the product offered will be an "electronic gadget" requiring a different approach to debugging whereas within a year after purchase the upgrades will obsolete your one year old car which one still owes $25,000 on..

I see the new Caddy XTS shares the 2013 Impala body and the 3.6 engine, with pricing starting $44k to $61k.. The new ATS will have a 270 hp turbo-4banger probably starting around 40k..maybe using the Malibu structure..

Maybe the car warranty will be altered to 15yr/200,000 miles ?????, financing to 10yrs????? The whole game is up for grabs....

imidazol97

>The new ATS will have a 270 hp turbo-4banger probably starting around 40k..maybe using the Malibu structure..

Is the Malibu going rear wheel drive? I thought the ATS uses the alpha platform which is REAR wheel drive.

>new Caddy XTS shares the 2013 Impala body

The XTS uses an ENLARGED version of the Epsilon platform, so I don't know if sharing is the right connection. As for the engines, there are many variations of engines of the same displacement, so that might be true. With a little research I find the XTS and Impala both get the same high feature version of the 3.6. Of course for the Impala that's a high option engine, with a 4-cyl being the beginning point.

I have read elsewhere that all GM's engines would be DI in 2013 or 2014. Is that true here?

berri

There's another way of looking at that stock price I think - it becomes an acquisition target for someone entering, or expanding into the US market. You don't necessarily need the plants, but the dealership and distribution network, as well as knowledge of the US market ( finance, sales, advertising, legal, etc.) may be desirable assets at the right price.

tjc78

I have read elsewhere that all GM's engines would be DI in 2013 or 2014. Is that true here

I haven't heard that, but it really surprises me they still put the NON-DI 3.6 in the CTS. It doesn't make much to me. Wouldn't having just one V6 simplify things? How much would the DI add to the base price?

RE:XTS. I couldn't get a definitive answer by searching. Is it the same platform as the current LaCrosse or not? I always thought the LaCrosse was a stretched Epsilon (Malibu) as well.

andre1969

RE:XTS. I couldn't get a definitive answer by searching. Is it the same platform as the current LaCrosse or not? I always thought the LaCrosse was a stretched Epsilon (Malibu) as well.

That's my perception of it, that the XTS is essentially Cadillac's version of the LaCrosse (I looked up some specs a couple weeks ago, and most dimensions were very similar), while the Malibu (and Regal) are shortened versions.

So, I dunno where that leaves the Impala. I found some specs of it here.

The wheelbase and overall length and width suggest that it could still be based on the LaCrosse/XTS and Regal/Malibu.

tjc78

The new Impala has to be LaCrosse based. Heck, two of the powertrains are from the LaCrosse as well. It certainly appears bigger than the Malibu.

Some of the features mentioned aren't available on the LaCrosse. I wonder if they will be coming. (laser cruise, forward collision alert)

It looks like it could be a winner for Chevy. I like it.

motorcity6

The 3.6 is the high option in 2012 Impala of 300+hp, low end touring tires and junk suspension..I saw several used 12s selling for 10k less than MSRP..

The 3.6 engine has been stuffed into alot of bodies, both ends of the spectrum, corporate engine drifting across the entire GM lineup.

The Caddy "Northstar" and the Olds version "Shortstar" V-6 are gone..The Olds version was a winner but too expensive to build..Had 2 of them, 75k on a 1999 and 120k on a 2002..zero engine problems in either case..loved the 6.5 oil capacity in the Olds version..

Had 2 Northstar Caddies, not too bad, but Caddies are prone too many other problems, but a used low-mileage DTS w/sunroof may be a good buy with the cheapening of the Caddy line..

Gas mileage between a V-8 Northstar and a 3.6 is no big deal..

motorcity6

$35,000,000,000 !!!!!!!!!!

It's just money...No big deal, print some more...

imidazol97

And your point?

Would you rather have had a full depression with all the jobs of the suppliers and the other manufacturing plants for autos in the US shut down for 6 months while the bankruptcy reorganization worked its way through?

Hmmmm. How much would that have cost?

I recommend taking up the share price and the methodology of the reorganization with BO's reelection team. Ask why UAW is still involved and even owns part of it.

fintail

Probably 6 months of our policeman of the world spending account, or maybe a year worth of aid to parasitic ungrateful nations. Meh.

tlong

Would you rather have had a full depression with all the jobs of the suppliers and the other manufacturing plants for autos in the US shut down for 6 months while the bankruptcy reorganization worked its way through?

Not so sure we actually know what would have happened had the bailout not have occurred. Might have been the difference between short vs. long-term pain. We're in long-term pain mode now, instead.

In general, propping up failed companies may not be the best use of our tax dollars.

I wonder what other innovations we missed out on due to lack of creative destruction in the auto industry?

motorcity6

There was enough money available in the private sector to float GM without getting the union any ownership, but then again the bond holders were shafted in favor of the unions..The auto czar assigned to watch the govt. auto deals was an admitted socialist and besides the Volt was available for their "Green BS" and we will never ever ever know what the whole GM and Chrysler fiasco cost.......!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would make the "Solar Panel" losses look like "chump change"..

Since I worked the auto supplier game for many years and watched a few suppliers go down the tube, and watched the Big3 cave to the unions every 3 yrs, it was predictable...Our Federal Govt made it easy for the offshore auto guys to invade our country, handed them new plants and luckily the unions got screwed to the wall with the foreigners..Recent development with the aircraft industry involving the French company "Airbus" building a plant in Alabama, a payback for the Boeing plant in the N. or S. Carolina which I believe is a non-union plant for the NLRB lost the case and that didn't set too well with the Democrats, so let's give Boeing some grief and help our socialist friends in France..

Do you miss your "firecrackers" this 4th?????? Now the left-hand is concerned about scaring the birds..

It's 99% political and shaping the country to their beliefs..At my age it really isn't going to harm me, however the under 55 population will lose liberty and rights at an alarming rate..

For you young ones it looks scary...

imidazol97

>There was enough money available in the private sector to float GM without getting the union

Can you prove that belief? Would it have been instantaneous--or one of those year-long dragged out debate and negotiation deals while the suppliers as well as the GM (C) plants were idled?

While I agree about the UAW's having been given a sweetheart deal, I don't believe the rest of your thinking that it would have occurred smoothly and efficiently enough. As for the political mishmash involved, the IUE workers here in Ohio got the shaft along with their salaried folks from Delphi: workers didn't get the UAW treatment nor could they transfer to other GM plants and the salaried lost much of their pension. I hope they won't be out donating time and money for the current auto Czar-in-chief's reelection like they did in 2007/8!!! I didn't vote for him. They really got thrown under the bus. I hope they learned.

In summary, there's no reason to keep whining in a GM discussion about current news, new models, and market share about what a political entity did. That belongs in a political topic somewhere and should affect your vote in the polls in November. It seems pointless in a current GM discussion.

fintail

Proof of any pain will be when we finally are unable to subsidize our competitors (slimy tax havens included) with cheap or free defense. It's a long ways off, if ever.

If propped up failed companies (hello, Hyunkia) are allowed here with a level playing field, and others receive endless public help, either we get to do so, or we get to close the doors to our playground. Which do you choose?