If you read the link, there is no solid news out of the government's auto company that a new Buick Electra is in the works. Only trademarking the name at this point.
A marque large Buick RWD Electra is possible but a long way off at the moment.
Cadillac has not yet released specifics regarding the ATS’s available options or their cost; the company will reveal more as the car’s on-sale date approaches.
Perhaps competitive but too high to gain substantial market share. Wrong pricing strategy as usual, Old GM.
Actually, I think GM is right on target in the ATS pricing.
GM can't exist long term by bargain basement pricing in an attempt to buy market share. IMO, along with many other industry opinions I have read, the only viable way to exist in a market such as the 3-series, Audi, ATS etc. is to build a competitive (both in price AND product) challenger.
The ATS will never succeed as a poor-man's alternative to a BMW 328 or 335. Anyone choosing between a 328/335 or an ATS isn't going to be worried about a $2k price difference. If he can't swing the extra $2K, he really isnt in the BMW market anyway. So, if GM goes after that kind of sale, they have already taken themselves out of the competition.
Even if I'm totally wrong, there isn't anything that would prohibit GM from reducing ATS pricing after product introduction. They sure as hell won't be able to SUCCESSFULLY jack up prices if they hit the market too low...
Pricing exactly the same as the competition when you are the "newbie" gives no edge even if all other things are equal. Customers of BMW and Audi aren't going to switch on price so best to go after new sales. IOW, conquest sales for ATS will be slim pickin's, so to speak. As much as we know about the ATS is that it will be "almost" as good as the 3'er and perhaps a step up on the A4. But I'll bet Merc keeps the C-Series customers on name alone.
Even if I'm totally wrong, there isn't anything that would prohibit GM from reducing ATS pricing after product introduction. They sure as hell won't be able to SUCCESSFULLY jack up prices if they hit the market too low...
Exactly! Price it too high and then pile on the incentives to move the metal. See anything new about that or just Ole GM as usual? That should help resale values.
Well, I guess I do see a possible plus to the ATS... A domestic brand that intentionally ( and is designed to do) competes directly against Audi and BMW and MB.
And, there's some segment of the buying population that would buy domestic over import, all things being relatively equal. Now, how many there are in that group remains to be seen.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how initially pricing the car far below BMW and Audi will enhance resale values, either.
To some extent, new model introductions are always crap-shoots.
At the end of the day, GM is going to do what it's going to do, regardless what any of us posters here think...
And if they priced it lower you would undoubtedly be posting about how that cheapens the brand and prevents Cadillac from being seen as a competitor to the rivals from Germany.
The market will determine the price, as it always does.
How did Lexus do it? Lower priced alternative to the competition. Not saying they were better, but the lower price sold cars and thats what Caddy should do.
That would be a concern for me on a road trip car. Not so much on a city car.
I got a flat in Bridgeville, DE, about half way in to a 3 hour road trip. Luckily that car had a full-sized spare. It was late at night, too, and I had a toddler and another kid in the car. That would have been a nightmare.
Deal killer for my long-distance road trip car, for sure.
I agree. When buying performance oriented vehicles, most buyers are going to be Looking at PERFORMANCE, not how any cylinders the engine has or how many turbochargers are installed.
There'll be some resistance from the old guard, but, as you stated... It's the new reality.
Back in my heyday with performance vehicles, in the 60s and 70s, many would have laughed at a car being referenced as "performance" and having only 6 cylinders, yet a modern BMW 335 would trash just about anything available back then.
Back in my heyday with performance vehicles, in the 60s and 70s, many would have laughed at a car being referenced as "performance" and having only 6 cylinders, yet a modern BMW 335 would trash just about anything available back then.
There's also a much smaller gap these days between the entry-level engines and the high-performance engines.
For instance, back in 1968, your typical domestic compact with a 6-cyl/auto was good for 0-60 in about 14-15 seconds. Some of the bottom feeders, like a 170 Falcon or Dart/Valiant, or a 4-cyl Chevy II, were more like 17-18. But, throw in a half-decent V-8 and you were down to 10-11. A high performance smallblock could cut that to around 6-7 seconds, depending on gearing. And it probably topped out with something like 5 seconds if you went all the way with a Hemi Dart (which, IIRC, wasn't even street legal and was originally intended for the drag strip)
Nowadays, a 4-cyl Accord, Camry, or Altima, I guess is good for 0-60 in around 7.5-9 seconds, depending on who you want to believe and what time of year, temperature, humidity, and elevation they did their test. But then if you spring for the V-6, that probably only gets you down to maybe 6-6.5.
Truth be told, many base engines are good enough these days, if I were getting a new car I'd probably just go with the 4-cyl in a mainstream intermediate, and the V-6 if it was something like a Charger. But, I'll admit there's still an allure to those big engines. Heck, the other week I found an '08 Lucerne with the Northstar for something like $12K, and gotta admit, I was tempted!
A V-8 Lucerne for $12K? Hmmm, the Grand Marquis IS getting a little tired...
I just checked the website, and unfortunately, it's gone. :sick: Anyway, it was www.sheehy.com. Same dealer group that I bought my Intrepid from, my buddy bought his Xterra, Dad bought his used '03 Regal, and my uncle bought his '97 Silverado. Actually, Mom bought her '86 Monte Carlo from the same place, although I don't think it was Sheehy back then.
Supposedly, the Pontiac OHC-6 was pretty quick, but troubleprone. And it wasn't anywhere near the power of the high-output V-8's. And Mopar fiddled around with their slant six in the early years, putting a 4-bbl carb on, hotter cam, etc. That boosted the little 170-6 from 101 hp to 148, and the bigger 225 went from 145 to 197. Pretty impressive for the time, but still, hardly musclecar territory.
If they priced it lower, it would build sales faster and thus earn new customers faster. If it is, indeed, as good as the competition, the customers keep coming back. Why buy the newcomer when the leaders have been tested and deliver?
Agreed the market will determine the price....always does and that's why GM's pricing always ends up on the higher end of invectives.
My daughter has a 08 2.5 Altima SL and for anyone who isn't looking at a vehicle for a "performance" ride, which is probably 99.99% of the Altima/Camry market segment, the kind of performance her car offers is far more than acceptable.
And,seeing as those 2 models are typically in the top two/three sales rankings, that's a pretty popular market to be in nowadays...
Lexus topped J.D. Power's 2012 U.S. Initial Quality Study for the second year in a row with 73 problems reported per 100 models tracked, the same as in 2011.
Consumers are picky...to them it's an issue, sure.
Ford took a hit, but people were complaining left and right until they got that simplified update distributed. JDP said it wasn't out early enough to affect these results.
Cars in general are remarkably reliable nowadays. 0.78 problems more for the worst car vs. the best. That's less than 1 problem per car!
Lemko, I think I just found the next car for you or your wife. Returned a Toyota Avalon rental. This car out Buick's a LaCrosse. Reminded me of a past LeSabre or 88, but with today's mechanicals and technology. Quiet, smooth and pretty quick. I've always appreciated a nice land yacht. I saw some very good deals in the newspaper for the outgoing Avalon as well.
A huge amount of 2012 Avalons have been bought by the National/Enterprise/Alamo group. For this last model year of the old style, it is a huge GM style fleet dump indeed.
In the JD Power Initial Quality Study for 2012 cars my take is:
out of 35 brands Cadillac is #4 ahead of all Asian brands except Lexus which was #1
Chevrolet> Audi/Hyundai/Kia/Subaru
Gm did very well, but I think the most important conclusion is that if you bought a Honda, which is the 5th best your chance of experiencing a problem with your car is 83%. However if you bought a Mitsubishi, which is the 5th worst brand your chance would be 125%
Both of those percentages are pretty close to 100% meaning that almost any car you buy will likely have on average about one problem in the first few months after you buy it.
I think initial quality ratings can be misleading since it doesn't necessarily mean that longer term durability and reliability are the same. Rather, its more like how tight the dashboard is screwed in off the line. If you follow IQS, I think a spead of 42 individual percentage points in the swing is probably meaningful statistically. I read the Mitsu number as meaning you have a 1 out of 4 chance of exceeding only 1 problem (or 100%). But compared to vehicles a decade ago, all of those numbers are still pretty good. Too bad the tradespeople can't get anywhere near that when building a new house!
I think initial quality ratings can be misleading since it doesn't necessarily mean that longer term durability and reliability are the same.
I think in the JD Power survey, "quality" has the narrow meaning of "problems". It doesn't cover quality as in "the interior is full of cheap plastic" or "the engine thrashes during acceleration". Does it even cover "the body panels don't line up very well"?
Ironically enough, if I was to consider a Toyota-branded car, the Avalon would be it...at least the outgoing one. My wife and I liked the one we saw at the last Philly auto show. I don't care for the weird two-tier grille on the upcoming 2013 Avalon. Looks like they juxtaposed a Camry grille with a huge barbecue grille rack:
> "cranks" that insist on the hot water tap being on the left and the cold water
OR the bathtub drain actually being connected instead of draining into the crawl space? Details. Details.
I watch Holmes on Homes on HGTV some Sundays. I'm appalled at the quality of homes he ends up repairing. At least that's the case in Canada. I wonder if it's better in the US? Holmes should give the names of the builders who did those messes--at least we get the names of car brands with bad transmissions historically or with bad electronics and runaway accelleration or with strange brakes like Prius owners are commenting on or giant numbers of recalls like toyota just had, another 1,400,000 IIRC.
Also, as mentioned above, IQ does not mean long-term durability, in fact they also have a different Dependability study that looks at 3 year old. To me that's far more important - how's the car once it's out of warranty?
Still, it's a good indicator for GM that their new vehicles have shown improvement.
Comments
A marque large Buick RWD Electra is possible but a long way off at the moment.
Regards,
OW
I bet he'd find it pretty cool if they brought the name back in a traditional RWD sedan.
No pricing yet, though.
Cadillac Prices 2013 ATS Sedan From $33,990; Top-Spec V-6 Model Rings in at $42,090
Cadillac has not yet released specifics regarding the ATS’s available options or their cost; the company will reveal more as the car’s on-sale date approaches.
Perhaps competitive but too high to gain substantial market share. Wrong pricing strategy as usual, Old GM.
Regards,
OW
GM can't exist long term by bargain basement pricing in an attempt to buy market share. IMO, along with many other industry opinions I have read, the only viable way to exist in a market such as the 3-series, Audi, ATS etc. is to build a competitive (both in price AND product) challenger.
The ATS will never succeed as a poor-man's alternative to a BMW 328 or 335. Anyone choosing between a 328/335 or an ATS isn't going to be worried about a $2k price difference. If he can't swing the extra $2K, he really isnt in the BMW market anyway. So, if GM goes after that kind of sale, they have already taken themselves out of the competition.
Even if I'm totally wrong, there isn't anything that would prohibit GM from reducing ATS pricing after product introduction. They sure as hell won't be able to SUCCESSFULLY jack up prices if they hit the market too low...
Even if I'm totally wrong, there isn't anything that would prohibit GM from reducing ATS pricing after product introduction. They sure as hell won't be able to SUCCESSFULLY jack up prices if they hit the market too low...
Exactly! Price it too high and then pile on the incentives to move the metal. See anything new about that or just Ole GM as usual? That should help resale values.
Regards,
OW
And, there's some segment of the buying population that would buy domestic over import, all things being relatively equal. Now, how many there are in that group remains to be seen.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how initially pricing the car far below BMW and Audi will enhance resale values, either.
To some extent, new model introductions are always crap-shoots.
At the end of the day, GM is going to do what it's going to do, regardless what any of us posters here think...
The market will determine the price, as it always does.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Looks like they announced pricing less than 1 hour after I posted!
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/business/la-fi-autos-spare-tires-2011062- 0
I got a flat in Bridgeville, DE, about half way in to a 3 hour road trip. Luckily that car had a full-sized spare. It was late at night, too, and I had a toddler and another kid in the car. That would have been a nightmare.
Deal killer for my long-distance road trip car, for sure.
This is the shocking new reality.
The Caddy will be well equipped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8FBxS-00xU&feature=player_embedded
The first 2 sentences he heard after the accident...
Are you OK?
You gonna keep that deer?
There'll be some resistance from the old guard, but, as you stated... It's the new reality.
Back in my heyday with performance vehicles, in the 60s and 70s, many would have laughed at a car being referenced as "performance" and having only 6 cylinders, yet a modern BMW 335 would trash just about anything available back then.
yep, it's called the Buick Verano.
I think the Cruze, in LTZ trim, can be optioned up to $26-27K.
There's also a much smaller gap these days between the entry-level engines and the high-performance engines.
For instance, back in 1968, your typical domestic compact with a 6-cyl/auto was good for 0-60 in about 14-15 seconds. Some of the bottom feeders, like a 170 Falcon or Dart/Valiant, or a 4-cyl Chevy II, were more like 17-18. But, throw in a half-decent V-8 and you were down to 10-11. A high performance smallblock could cut that to around 6-7 seconds, depending on gearing. And it probably topped out with something like 5 seconds if you went all the way with a Hemi Dart (which, IIRC, wasn't even street legal and was originally intended for the drag strip)
Nowadays, a 4-cyl Accord, Camry, or Altima, I guess is good for 0-60 in around 7.5-9 seconds, depending on who you want to believe and what time of year, temperature, humidity, and elevation they did their test. But then if you spring for the V-6, that probably only gets you down to maybe 6-6.5.
Truth be told, many base engines are good enough these days, if I were getting a new car I'd probably just go with the 4-cyl in a mainstream intermediate, and the V-6 if it was something like a Charger. But, I'll admit there's still an allure to those big engines. Heck, the other week I found an '08 Lucerne with the Northstar for something like $12K, and gotta admit, I was tempted!
A V-8 Lucerne for $12K? Hmmm, the Grand Marquis IS getting a little tired...
I just checked the website, and unfortunately, it's gone. :sick: Anyway, it was www.sheehy.com. Same dealer group that I bought my Intrepid from, my buddy bought his Xterra, Dad bought his used '03 Regal, and my uncle bought his '97 Silverado. Actually, Mom bought her '86 Monte Carlo from the same place, although I don't think it was Sheehy back then.
Supposedly, the Pontiac OHC-6 was pretty quick, but troubleprone. And it wasn't anywhere near the power of the high-output V-8's. And Mopar fiddled around with their slant six in the early years, putting a 4-bbl carb on, hotter cam, etc. That boosted the little 170-6 from 101 hp to 148, and the bigger 225 went from 145 to 197. Pretty impressive for the time, but still, hardly musclecar territory.
Agreed the market will determine the price....always does and that's why GM's pricing always ends up on the higher end of invectives.
Regards,
OW
GM still has that pricing ego, however, and then panics with incentives.
Regards,
OW
They don't want to cheapen the brand.
I know, your and my logic is not their logic.
Replaces a series I XK-E 3.8 L with this Pontiac 6 & 4-speed.
- Ray
Interesting exercise...
One mag took the new 4 banger/CVT to 60 in 7.1 seconds.
I know some people want the throttle response of a V6, but that's quick enough that you really don't need one.
And,seeing as those 2 models are typically in the top two/three sales rankings, that's a pretty popular market to be in nowadays...
Lexus fell asleep just like Acura as their parents were on a trip of some kind for the last few years....
Regards,
OW
Lexus topped J.D. Power's 2012 U.S. Initial Quality Study for the second year in a row with 73 problems reported per 100 models tracked, the same as in 2011.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120620/OEM/120629993#ixzz1yMDCSvtf
Back on topic - GM showed a nice improvement.
Ford took a hit, but people were complaining left and right until they got that simplified update distributed. JDP said it wasn't out early enough to affect these results.
Cars in general are remarkably reliable nowadays. 0.78 problems more for the worst car vs. the best. That's less than 1 problem per car!
Remember when it was 3?
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Several gas stations are battling it out over regular, with the price battle currently at the $2.85/gallon level.
How low will it go?
It's the last thing high dollar hybrids need...
out of 35 brands Cadillac is #4 ahead of all Asian brands except Lexus which was #1
Chevrolet> Audi/Hyundai/Kia/Subaru
Gm did very well, but I think the most important conclusion is that if you bought a Honda, which is the 5th best your chance of experiencing a problem with your car is 83%. However if you bought a Mitsubishi, which is the 5th worst brand your chance would be 125%
Both of those percentages are pretty close to 100% meaning that almost any car you buy will likely have on average about one problem in the first few months after you buy it.
Statistically that is pretty insignificant.
So people are SOOOO picky!
Lol!!
I think in the JD Power survey, "quality" has the narrow meaning of "problems". It doesn't cover quality as in "the interior is full of cheap plastic" or "the engine thrashes during acceleration". Does it even cover "the body panels don't line up very well"?
Regards,
OW
Ahh yes, the 1961 DeSoto syndrome strikes again!
Looks like rear headroom may suffer compared to the old Avalon, too. Just a guess, though.
OR the bathtub drain actually being connected instead of draining into the crawl space? Details. Details.
I watch Holmes on Homes on HGTV some Sundays. I'm appalled at the quality of homes he ends up repairing. At least that's the case in Canada. I wonder if it's better in the US? Holmes should give the names of the builders who did those messes--at least we get the names of car brands with bad transmissions historically or with bad electronics and runaway accelleration or with strange brakes like Prius owners are commenting on or giant numbers of recalls like toyota just had, another 1,400,000 IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You should say Volt.
With gas so cheap it stands no chance, at least until the next price spike.
Hybrids demand has been strong, so they can rebuild inventories. Volts are stockpiled so GM will feel it far more.
Yup, I said the same thing.
Also, as mentioned above, IQ does not mean long-term durability, in fact they also have a different Dependability study that looks at 3 year old. To me that's far more important - how's the car once it's out of warranty?
Still, it's a good indicator for GM that their new vehicles have shown improvement.