>There was enough money available in the private sector to float GM without getting the union
Can you prove that belief? Would it have been instantaneous--or one of those year-long dragged out debate and negotiation deals while the suppliers as well as the GM (C) plants were idled?
The one thing we can be sure of is that we are all guessing what could have happened. The only thing we know for sure is what DID happen. There were plenty of stories about how the lack of a bailout would have lost us a million or more jobs (mostly put out by the pro-bailout lobby and the union). Alas, we'll never know how real, or ridiculous, those projections were.
Proof of any pain will be when we finally are unable to subsidize our competitors (slimy tax havens included) with cheap or free defense. It's a long ways off, if ever.
Did you hear that Airbus is going to build a plant in Alabama to product up to 40 airliners/month? Tons of direct and indirect jobs and taxes will be paid. Offshoring to the USA! Is that subsidizing of our competitors, or just good business? Our companies offshoring elsewhere is bad, so this must be good. Is Airbus a slimy company, or are we a slimy labor haven without unionization in the south when their European plants have union workers? :confuse:
Perhaps GM should form a subsidiary and offshore manufacturing to non-union in Alabama, too. :P
It's a cynical ploy to gain contracts from the red ink swilling policeman of the world, now that Airbus products will be able to be branded "Made in USA" and be eligible. Has nothing to do with unions or offshoring, in the big picture - it's simply playing by a rule to get a piece of pie. Nice try, but no dice.
Not quite like psuedo-nations where tax dodgers can run and hide after they take advantage of an established and expensive system here, then balk and flee when the maintenance becomes due. Treachery.
And I do wonder how the southern masses who recoil at the thought of socialism, will learn that this new kid on the block is a virtual ward of the state.
In summary, there's no reason to keep whining in a GM discussion about current news, new models, and market share about what a political entity did. That belongs in a political topic somewhere and should affect your vote in the polls in November.
Sure, but you should also stop repeating the political story you were sold that the way the GM bankruptcy was handled was the only legal and morally and finacially best way to handle it. Maybe you're still believing "the WMD in Iraq"? The facts are the Auto Czar could have been created that day, edicts issued, and the courts bypassed, and normal bankruptcy proceedings dismissed. If you need an example consider what was done with Lehman Brothers and the other firms involved in TARP. People and organizations that have political favor and power were unfairly protected, while many with legal claims were "scewed".
With the power of the Federal government today, there really is no law or system they can't dismiss or rewrite, or declare an emergency ... and do as they wish in the short-term. Maybe it all started when we did not challenge the government waging wars without "declaring war", and those "inconveniences".
Despite what I think about GM, the 2014 Corvett does sound mighty interesting. Anyone have any obscure recent information? I've seen the MT and R&T type "sneak-peeks".
>, but you should also stop repeating the political story you were sold that the way the GM bankruptcy was handled was the only legal and morally and finacially best way to handle it. Maybe you're still believing "the WMD in Iraq"?
May I repeat: >>That belongs in a political topic somewhere and should affect your vote in the polls in November.
Sorry that's just pretty hard to do, since politicians have recently and continue thru their bankruptcy tax policies, to influence even GM's current existence! So maybe the Host's need to remove "News" from this forum, as politicians continue to make GM News.
since you don't get the idea. Here it is straight-out: "Don't believe everything or every theory you hear from "experts"". Why? Because many of the experts are bought and paid for, and do as their bosses direct them to.
Wasn't the best expert on GM, and excuse me because I've forced myself to forget his name, that buffoon of an exec. that went in front of Congress with the other Big 2 execs in 2008? Wasn't he the "expert"? What did he tell everyone? "GM was in no danger of failing." Shortly thereafter he's gone, and GM is Chapter 11 (Special).
An expert's opinion and $1 will get you a coffee at McD's.
Although I went and bought a new Chevy in Feb 2010, not caring that they were in BK, or at least willing to take a risk, it turned out that GM collected political favor from the politician who gives to and receives from unions. Now my risk taken amounts to nothing and the warranty that I once doubted stands firm. Sometimes acting in opposite direction to what is mainly preached on this forum (to avoid GM) works out fine. The car also gets awesome gas mileage which is highly averse to many commenters on this forum's claims to GM vehicles being so thirsty. DIC record range to date is 620 miles from a 16 gallon tank. EPA hwy is 88 fewer miles.
And I do wonder how the southern masses who recoil at the thought of socialism, will learn that this new kid on the block is a virtual ward of the state.
That wasn't the question. We can either let the coddled nearly-failed companies compete here while we coddle our own, or we can penalize them to equalize the coddling. Which is it?
Just like Hyunkia. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Is Hyunkia currenly a ward of the Korean state like GM is of the USA? Do you have a link for that? Or is this just a slimy treacherous ill-gotten comment that is mentioned by the few? :P
"Currently" is irrelevant, the group needed to be aided and essentially taken over to survive, and you know it. It was allowed to reform itself after it made too much garbage, and then succeeded.
As a successful high earner capitalist, you no doubt have ample time and skill to do the research yourself. Study the coddling Hyunkia has received since birth, the bailout after the group virtually failed ~15 years ago, and the state capitalism that benefits the chaebol to this day. It is about as self-made as Romney or Dubya. And it is even better as the parent nation has been heavily aided by debt-created US taxpayer largesse for decades.
WOW-----The WMD issue smells of a political side which is GM "front and center"...100%..
At my age the current USA direction is not my worry for I lived in the "best of times," which will never be duplicated..It would be easy to pinpoint the beginning of the end, but it's a waste of time and politics is getting somewhat boring..
In closing we should understand that what happens in the immediate future to January 20, 2013 is critical to life in the USA..
I followed a "Karma" yesterday, that $100,000+, hot-looking car for the affluent crowd interested in "saving the planet".. Driven by someone in the medical profession based on the parking lot of the hospital which I pass every day.. The electrical generator in "Karma" is the old 260hp 4 banger engine that powered the Chevy Cobalt SS...
Back to cars, okay???? Just finished my "Starbucks", I realize they are the 100% liberal leaning, but diversity is paramount...
No bumper sticker on my cars--reason---certain elements of the public can be bad actors..a simple keying of the car is a pain..
After 34 GM cars, it was a fun trip and 90% were okay and the 10% were dealt with quickly..
"Currently" is irrelevant, the group needed to be aided and essentially taken over to survive...
The original post was about GM being a ward of the state. Currently. Is Hyunkia STILL a ward? That was the question I was trying to get answered. Otherwise, a ward "back then" is not equal to a ward "right now". That's relevant to me, perhaps not to you.
As a successful high earner capitalist, you no doubt have ample time and skill to do the research yourself.
Yes, but I didn't bring up Hyunkia's past subsidies. Which I'm sure exist. We just don't have any evidence of that other than some anonymous post in an auto forum. Perhaps there is other documentation somewhere out on the net. :P
No seriously. I am not going to spend time finding a pile of links to then have them ignored or dismissed...you know, like names of slimy tax haven pseudo-nations.
Research it yourself. You have the skills that have earned (heh) a pile of gold, right? Are you actually presenting anything, or just playing devils advocate to distract? And it doesn't even touch on the problem of aided and coddled firms - either through bailouts, massive perpetual aid, or currency manipulation, should be allowed to play on a level playing field here.
Hyunkia made mostly garbage before nearly going over the edge, Kia formally went bankrupt, and the group needed a bailout to get back on their feet. This is not an item for debate. Then they shaped up. Others could do this too - especially if they had the other backing that the South Korean government affords its industries.
Be unlike the typical middle aged manager, and do something :shades:
Look at Hyunkia products shortly after the bailout and after still receiving endless help from a government that has always subsidized its industry (and in a direct way, with our tax dollars as well). Any better?
At least you didn't buy a Sonata, arguably the most overstyled hot mess on wheels.
Oh heck, the transplants have all sucked up multi-millions in local and state subsidies for their new facilities over here as well. D3 is more limited in that respect because of their already fixed asset structure here. Personally, I try to stay away from Korean products for the simple reason that I think that country, like some others, is a leech on the American taxpayers. We provide a huge chunk of their defense, while they actively prohibit or interfere with US imports to them. Meanwhile, the Korean citizens stage anti-American protests and burn our flag (except when they are having a problem with North Korea or China). Ask some of the military who served over there (off the record) what they really think of Korea. It might make you think twice about buying Samsung, Hyundai and Kia.
Now you know how I feel about the lack of desired information :shades:
Hyunkia has tried harder than GM lately, for sure. Maybe harder than anyone. Maybe even in some areas, tried too hard. But that doesn't discount the FACT - it has been a heavily subsidized and bailed out group from a nation that both practices questionable currency management and has benefited directly from our tax dollars. It's not a self-made success story.
Oh heck, the transplants have all sucked up multi-millions in local and state subsidies for their new facilities over here as well. D3 is more limited in that respect because of their already fixed asset structure here.
Yes, but the transplants' tax benefits are not due to them being foreign, but due to them being in expansion mode and not encumbered by the UAW. I'm sure the southern states would give tax breaks to anybody who was willing to build a new plant and bring many new jobs to the area. So really we should look at why GM isn't getting the same tax subsidies:
1 - They aren't building new plants 2 - They are stuck in union states and with union agreements
The criticism shouldn't be aimed at the tax subsidies, it should be aimed at why our US nameplates have allowed themselves to get into the position where THEY can't be getting those subsidies through expansion and job growth.
Personally, I try to stay away from Korean products for the simple reason that I think that country, like some others, is a leech on the American taxpayers. We provide a huge chunk of their defense, while they actively prohibit or interfere with US imports to them.
You may be correct - so shouldn't we be blaming our own government policies? I like the idea of weaning all the dependent states (Korea, Japan, Europe) off our military support. But it seems that our administrations, whether D or R, seem to find overseas interference a destiny of this country.
First, thanks for providing actual links - great job!
I did read those links and they all appear to reference parts of the Hyundai congomerate that are not auto manufacturing - ship building, heavy construction, and securities as an example. The bailouts appear to be separated to each unit, so the auto portion was not mentioned in any of the articles as far as I could see.
I know that their companies are structured differently than our own, so it's a bit hard to decipher. Also interesting was that for they Hyundai Securities, it was the Korean government balking while the US AIG was ready to help.
FACT - it has been a heavily subsidized and bailed out group from a nation that both practices questionable currency management and has benefited directly from our tax dollars.
It's funny that in some of robr's LINKED articles, the Bush admin was very unhappy about one of the Hyundai conglomerate companies (but not the auto unit) being SUBSIDIZED by the Korean government - that was considered unfair! Funny what 7 more years brought to GM - the same situation, initiated by Bush himself.
I did read those links and they all appear to reference parts of the Hyundai congomerate that are not auto manufacturing - ship building, heavy construction, and securities as an example. The bailouts appear to be separated to each unit, so the auto portion was not mentioned in any of the articles as far as I could see.
As you noted, the auto manufacturing wasn't mentioned specifically. But with the bailouts for the other parts of the company, it most likely allowed Hyundai to devote resources to the auto part since they didn't have to invest in the bailed out industries.
Asian companies/industries are structured very differently. If a company is facing difficult times, very often their competitors will defer business to them in order to keep them afloat. If one part of the conglomerate is facing hard times, their sister companies jump in to help them.
Hyundai spun off a number of subsidiaries including auto during their last financial crisis, restructuring, etc. several decades ago. However all of the Hyundai's are still connected through their chaebol system, which is similar to in Japan where companies have all kinds of inside, informal connections and dealings. If they operated like that in this country it would be collusion and restraint of trade.
I'm sure the southern states would give tax breaks to anybody who was willing to build a new plant and bring many new jobs to the area
Agree. But my point was that some slam GM for taking tax dollars but seem to overlook all of the local tax dollars being put into other manufacturers. Government subsidies are government subsidies to my way of thinking.
I think you are right about Detroit being slow on the change button. Ford is certainly changing right now. I think GM and Chrysler are too, but they have a much bigger hole to dig out of thanks to their prior management (and I use that term loosely!).
I guess I just have a "personal" problem buying from a country where their citizens openly display a loathing toward us, except then pretend to love us when they get in a jam.
I'm not sure that over time you will see the opposite as Fiat becomes a mix of US and eastern European. Marchione has been very candid that Italy is not business friendly.
Because Obama asked him to about a month before he took office
I'm not sure I buy that one. People may like or dislike George W, but one thing I admired about him (even if I didn't always agree) was that he was very strong on his convictions and he always put America first. He and Paulson did what they had to do (banks and auto industry) to preserve jobs and keep the economy from spiraling into a possible depression. It wasn't about GM, nor was it about Goldman Sachs, it was about American jobs. What Obama did in my opinion was prostituting the BK process in favor of the UAW over creditors.
>Because Obama asked him to about a month before he took office >I'm not sure I buy that one
Didn't Bush and Obama talk after Obama bought the election and Bush set it up so the auto companies were in the process and Obama could continue it or halt it, whichever the Elected Guy would choose.
Of course he chose giving the UAW the golden fruit and giving GM bondholders, including many pension funds and 401Ks the loss. UAW over the law. But then we had payback for all those folks who passed out campaign materials and walked the streets to knock on doors for Obama. I wonder how many of the Delphi folks and IUE workers here in Ohio who lost out and got the shaft felt after that process hurt them and how they feel now that they are needed to once again be the little people electioneering?
I'm all in favor of having saved GM and it hurt Ohio enough especially this area as it was handled. I realize that people in some other area have no empathy for folks here since it didn't affect your areas but saving GM was necessary to protect other jobs. However, GM could have been saved and UAW have had to reestablish themselves as representatives of the new workers in the GM plants, e.g. And UAW didn't need to have been given ownership and a place ahead of bondholders. AFter Reagan's handling of PATCO, I suspect Bush would have taken a harder line with UAW than did BO. Too bad Bush wasn't up for a third term to handle the problem.
Look at Hyunkia products shortly after the bailout and after still receiving endless help from a government that has always subsidized its industry (and in a direct way, with our tax dollars as well). Any better?
Agreed again. However, in terms of NOW, GM is behind, as usual. I wouldn't blame GM's problems on the rest of the World...would you??
To say we should subsidize failure at GM/C like Korea did with HyunKia is hardly any answer for the USA. Bottom Line: Make the best before you say you are the best.
I wouldn't blame Hyunkia's old problems on the rest of the world either. Both it and GM made a lot of bad decisions that put them in a hole, and both have received federal aid to help them survive. Just funny that it is evil for one, but OK for the other. Socialism is socialism, no matter who funds it (and in a way, we enable the Koreans to fund it)....either you support it or you don't, no special cases.
If subsidized companies are allowed to compete here on a level playing field, then we can be free to give similar aid to our own companies. It's either that or make the playing field not level. Those are the only two ways about it.
But you see, the group is connected. Subsidizing one subsidized them all. If they can do it, we can do it too. Double standards do not create sustainable economics. I am against corporate welfare and for the prosecution and persecution of errant executives...but barring any of that, we either have to compete in the aid industry, or create trade penalties for those who do not play by our rules on our soil.
And Hyunkia subsidized by us too, via our defense of the region, not to mention the developmental aid given for years. The group is not some kind of self-made success story, not anymore so than Mitten or Dubya.
The Germans help their companies too. We'd rather aid the top few so-called "earners", and wait for it to "trickle down".....30 years later, still hasn't happened.
To say we should subsidize failure at GM/C like Korea did with HyunKia is hardly any answer for the USA. Bottom Line: Make the best before you say you are the best.
The other thing to realize is that in Korea, this is the WAY business is done. We might not agree, but then we are judging against how OUR economy works. To think that every country should operate OUR way is kind of silly. Whereas government ownership of failed companies is NOT the way the US typically works.
From Wikipedia, re the corporate/government workings:
"Government-chaebol cooperation was essential to the subsequent economic growth and astounding successes that began in the early 1960s. Driven by the urgent need to turn the economy away from consumer goods and light industries toward heavy, chemical, and import-substitution industries, political leaders and government planners relied on the ideas and cooperation of the chaebol leaders. The government provided the blueprints for industrial expansion; the chaebol realized the plans. However, the chaebol-led industrialization accelerated the monopolistic and oligopolistic concentration of capital and economically profitable activities in the hands of a limited number of conglomerates."
You watch, that same government involved concentration of jobs and industries will be an Achilles heel for Korea -- just as too much government involvement will be in our U.S. industries as well.
You mean Caddy ISN'T the standard of the world? :surprise:
Double standards do not create sustainable economics.
I'd argue that the best system (and yes, we don't have it all right, either) makes the best economy. Running a race to see which country can out cheat each other isn't sustainable, either.
I am against corporate welfare and for the prosecution and persecution of errant executives...
But to prosecute you need to prove the breaking of LAWS, not just behavior we might find morally reprehensible. Laws are supposed to be the basis of our judicial system, although recent US government behavior certainly challenges that assertion.
And Hyunkia subsidized by us too, via our defense of the region, not to mention the developmental aid given for years.
No arguments there, but that's a US problem, not a Korean problem.
BTW, never said GM was evil, just incompetent as an auto manufacturer. If GM cars and operations were "The Best" over those lost decades, no need for taxpayer support.
Comments
Can you prove that belief? Would it have been instantaneous--or one of those year-long dragged out debate and negotiation deals while the suppliers as well as the GM (C) plants were idled?
The one thing we can be sure of is that we are all guessing what could have happened. The only thing we know for sure is what DID happen. There were plenty of stories about how the lack of a bailout would have lost us a million or more jobs (mostly put out by the pro-bailout lobby and the union). Alas, we'll never know how real, or ridiculous, those projections were.
Did you hear that Airbus is going to build a plant in Alabama to product up to 40 airliners/month? Tons of direct and indirect jobs and taxes will be paid. Offshoring to the USA! Is that subsidizing of our competitors, or just good business? Our companies offshoring elsewhere is bad, so this must be good. Is Airbus a slimy company, or are we a slimy labor haven without unionization in the south when their European plants have union workers? :confuse:
Perhaps GM should form a subsidiary and offshore manufacturing to non-union in Alabama, too. :P
Not quite like psuedo-nations where tax dodgers can run and hide after they take advantage of an established and expensive system here, then balk and flee when the maintenance becomes due. Treachery.
And I do wonder how the southern masses who recoil at the thought of socialism, will learn that this new kid on the block is a virtual ward of the state.
Sure, but you should also stop repeating the political story you were sold that the way the GM bankruptcy was handled was the only legal and morally and finacially best way to handle it. Maybe you're still believing "the WMD in Iraq"? The facts are the Auto Czar could have been created that day, edicts issued, and the courts bypassed, and normal bankruptcy proceedings dismissed. If you need an example consider what was done with Lehman Brothers and the other firms involved in TARP. People and organizations that have political favor and power were unfairly protected, while many with legal claims were "scewed".
With the power of the Federal government today, there really is no law or system they can't dismiss or rewrite, or declare an emergency ... and do as they wish in the short-term. Maybe it all started when we did not challenge the government waging wars without "declaring war", and those "inconveniences".
May I repeat:
>>That belongs in a political topic somewhere and should affect your vote in the polls in November.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
WMD sounds off topic to me. I certainly don't see any connection. Too much caffeine?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Wasn't the best expert on GM, and excuse me because I've forced myself to forget his name, that buffoon of an exec. that went in front of Congress with the other Big 2 execs in 2008? Wasn't he the "expert"? What did he tell everyone? "GM was in no danger of failing." Shortly thereafter he's gone, and GM is Chapter 11 (Special).
An expert's opinion and $1 will get you a coffee at McD's.
The car also gets awesome gas mileage which is highly averse to many commenters on this forum's claims to GM vehicles being so thirsty. DIC record range to date is 620 miles from a 16 gallon tank. EPA hwy is 88 fewer miles.
Regards,
OW
Oh, just like GM is a ward of the state!
Understood!!!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Is Hyunkia currenly a ward of the Korean state like GM is of the USA? Do you have a link for that? Or is this just a slimy treacherous ill-gotten comment that is mentioned by the few? :P
"Currently" is irrelevant, the group needed to be aided and essentially taken over to survive, and you know it. It was allowed to reform itself after it made too much garbage, and then succeeded.
As a successful high earner capitalist, you no doubt have ample time and skill to do the research yourself. Study the coddling Hyunkia has received since birth, the bailout after the group virtually failed ~15 years ago, and the state capitalism that benefits the chaebol to this day. It is about as self-made as Romney or Dubya. And it is even better as the parent nation has been heavily aided by debt-created US taxpayer largesse for decades.
Regards,
OW
That's what it is.
Regards,
OW
At my age the current USA direction is not my worry for I lived in the "best of times," which will never be duplicated..It would be easy to pinpoint the beginning of the end, but it's a waste of time and politics is getting somewhat boring..
In closing we should understand that what happens in the immediate future to January 20, 2013 is critical to life in the USA..
I followed a "Karma" yesterday, that $100,000+, hot-looking car for the affluent crowd interested in "saving the planet".. Driven by someone in the medical profession based on the parking lot of the hospital which I pass every day.. The electrical generator in "Karma" is the old 260hp 4 banger engine that powered the Chevy Cobalt SS...
Back to cars, okay???? Just finished my "Starbucks", I realize they are the 100% liberal leaning, but diversity is paramount...
No bumper sticker on my cars--reason---certain elements of the public can be bad actors..a simple keying of the car is a pain..
After 34 GM cars, it was a fun trip and 90% were okay and the 10% were dealt with quickly..
One that answers the question?
"Currently" is irrelevant, the group needed to be aided and essentially taken over to survive...
The original post was about GM being a ward of the state. Currently. Is Hyunkia STILL a ward? That was the question I was trying to get answered. Otherwise, a ward "back then" is not equal to a ward "right now". That's relevant to me, perhaps not to you.
As a successful high earner capitalist, you no doubt have ample time and skill to do the research yourself.
Yes, but I didn't bring up Hyunkia's past subsidies. Which I'm sure exist. We just don't have any evidence of that other than some anonymous post in an auto forum. Perhaps there is other documentation somewhere out on the net. :P
And thanks! I am enjoying the Optimum "Ward of the State" car immensely! Waxed the puppy this morning and it looks phenomenal! :shades:
Regards,
OW
Ford (Kansas City Assembly Plant in Claycomo, MO) - 460,338
Ford (Dearborn Truck Plant, Dearborn, MI) - 342,162
Hyundai (Hyundai Motor Manufacturing Plant, Montgomery, AL) - 342,162
Nissan (Nissan North America, Smyrna, TN) - 333,392
Toyota (Georgetown, KY) - 315,889
General Motors (Fort Wayne, Roanoke, IN) - 307,454
Honda (Marysville Auto Plant, Marysville, OH) - 285,258
Kia/Hyundai - (Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia, West Point, GA) - 282,316
General Motors - (Lordstown Complex, Warren, OH) - 279,674
General Motors - (Fairfax Assembly Plant, Kansas City, KS) - 279,250
General Motors - (Lansing Delta Township, Lansing, MI) - 277,277
BMW (BMW Manufacturing Co., Spartanburg, SC) - 277,074
General Motors (Arlington, TX) - 269,624
Honda - (Honda Manufacturing of Alabama, Lincoln, AL) - 264,324
Ford - (Chicago Assembly Plant, Chicago) - 262,730
Regards,
OW
Research it yourself. You have the skills that have earned (heh) a pile of gold, right? Are you actually presenting anything, or just playing devils advocate to distract? And it doesn't even touch on the problem of aided and coddled firms - either through bailouts, massive perpetual aid, or currency manipulation, should be allowed to play on a level playing field here.
Hyunkia made mostly garbage before nearly going over the edge, Kia formally went bankrupt, and the group needed a bailout to get back on their feet. This is not an item for debate. Then they shaped up. Others could do this too - especially if they had the other backing that the South Korean government affords its industries.
Be unlike the typical middle aged manager, and do something :shades:
At least you didn't buy a Sonata, arguably the most overstyled hot mess on wheels.
I didn't think I'd see a link. :P
Claims with no link to facts, I'm not going to waste my time on it, either.
Regardless of "ward of the state" status, looks to me like Hyundai is trying harder than GM. Just my opinion.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/international/2001/04/25/12877.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1148407.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/05/business/international-business-hyundai-unit-t- hreatens-to-close-as-bailout-fails.html
http://121.253.25.110/2003/02/10/2003021004.pdf
http://www.obj.ca/Other/Archives/2001-03-29/article-2131344/Hyundai-bailout-appr- oved-by-banks/1
Hyunkia has tried harder than GM lately, for sure. Maybe harder than anyone. Maybe even in some areas, tried too hard. But that doesn't discount the FACT - it has been a heavily subsidized and bailed out group from a nation that both practices questionable currency management and has benefited directly from our tax dollars. It's not a self-made success story.
Yes, but the transplants' tax benefits are not due to them being foreign, but due to them being in expansion mode and not encumbered by the UAW. I'm sure the southern states would give tax breaks to anybody who was willing to build a new plant and bring many new jobs to the area. So really we should look at why GM isn't getting the same tax subsidies:
1 - They aren't building new plants
2 - They are stuck in union states and with union agreements
The criticism shouldn't be aimed at the tax subsidies, it should be aimed at why our US nameplates have allowed themselves to get into the position where THEY can't be getting those subsidies through expansion and job growth.
Personally, I try to stay away from Korean products for the simple reason that I think that country, like some others, is a leech on the American taxpayers. We provide a huge chunk of their defense, while they actively prohibit or interfere with US imports to them.
You may be correct - so shouldn't we be blaming our own government policies? I like the idea of weaning all the dependent states (Korea, Japan, Europe) off our military support. But it seems that our administrations, whether D or R, seem to find overseas interference a destiny of this country.
First, thanks for providing actual links - great job!
I did read those links and they all appear to reference parts of the Hyundai congomerate that are not auto manufacturing - ship building, heavy construction, and securities as an example. The bailouts appear to be separated to each unit, so the auto portion was not mentioned in any of the articles as far as I could see.
I know that their companies are structured differently than our own, so it's a bit hard to decipher. Also interesting was that for they Hyundai Securities, it was the Korean government balking while the US AIG was ready to help.
It's funny that in some of robr's LINKED articles, the Bush admin was very unhappy about one of the Hyundai conglomerate companies (but not the auto unit) being SUBSIDIZED by the Korean government - that was considered unfair! Funny what 7 more years brought to GM - the same situation, initiated by Bush himself.
As you noted, the auto manufacturing wasn't mentioned specifically. But with the bailouts for the other parts of the company, it most likely allowed Hyundai to devote resources to the auto part since they didn't have to invest in the bailed out industries.
Asian companies/industries are structured very differently. If a company is facing difficult times, very often their competitors will defer business to them in order to keep them afloat. If one part of the conglomerate is facing hard times, their sister companies jump in to help them.
Agree. But my point was that some slam GM for taking tax dollars but seem to overlook all of the local tax dollars being put into other manufacturers. Government subsidies are government subsidies to my way of thinking.
I think you are right about Detroit being slow on the change button. Ford is certainly changing right now. I think GM and Chrysler are too, but they have a much bigger hole to dig out of thanks to their prior management (and I use that term loosely!).
I guess I just have a "personal" problem buying from a country where their citizens openly display a loathing toward us, except then pretend to love us when they get in a jam.
I'm not sure I buy that one. People may like or dislike George W, but one thing I admired about him (even if I didn't always agree) was that he was very strong on his convictions and he always put America first. He and Paulson did what they had to do (banks and auto industry) to preserve jobs and keep the economy from spiraling into a possible depression. It wasn't about GM, nor was it about Goldman Sachs, it was about American jobs. What Obama did in my opinion was prostituting the BK process in favor of the UAW over creditors.
>I'm not sure I buy that one
Didn't Bush and Obama talk after Obama bought the election and Bush set it up so the auto companies were in the process and Obama could continue it or halt it, whichever the Elected Guy would choose.
Of course he chose giving the UAW the golden fruit and giving GM bondholders, including many pension funds and 401Ks the loss. UAW over the law. But then we had payback for all those folks who passed out campaign materials and walked the streets to knock on doors for Obama. I wonder how many of the Delphi folks and IUE workers here in Ohio who lost out and got the shaft felt after that process hurt them and how they feel now that they are needed to once again be the little people electioneering?
I'm all in favor of having saved GM and it hurt Ohio enough especially this area as it was handled. I realize that people in some other area have no empathy for folks here since it didn't affect your areas but saving GM was necessary to protect other jobs. However, GM could have been saved and UAW have had to reestablish themselves as representatives of the new workers in the GM plants, e.g. And UAW didn't need to have been given ownership and a place ahead of bondholders. AFter Reagan's handling of PATCO, I suspect Bush would have taken a harder line with UAW than did BO. Too bad Bush wasn't up for a third term to handle the problem.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Agreed again. However, in terms of NOW, GM is behind, as usual. I wouldn't blame GM's problems on the rest of the World...would you??
To say we should subsidize failure at GM/C like Korea did with HyunKia is hardly any answer for the USA. Bottom Line: Make the best before you say you are the best.
Regards,
OW
If subsidized companies are allowed to compete here on a level playing field, then we can be free to give similar aid to our own companies. It's either that or make the playing field not level. Those are the only two ways about it.
Neither are making the "best".
And Hyunkia subsidized by us too, via our defense of the region, not to mention the developmental aid given for years. The group is not some kind of self-made success story, not anymore so than Mitten or Dubya.
The Germans help their companies too. We'd rather aid the top few so-called "earners", and wait for it to "trickle down".....30 years later, still hasn't happened.
The other thing to realize is that in Korea, this is the WAY business is done. We might not agree, but then we are judging against how OUR economy works. To think that every country should operate OUR way is kind of silly. Whereas government ownership of failed companies is NOT the way the US typically works.
From Wikipedia, re the corporate/government workings:
"Government-chaebol cooperation was essential to the subsequent economic growth and astounding successes that began in the early 1960s. Driven by the urgent need to turn the economy away from consumer goods and light industries toward heavy, chemical, and import-substitution industries, political leaders and government planners relied on the ideas and cooperation of the chaebol leaders. The government provided the blueprints for industrial expansion; the chaebol realized the plans. However, the chaebol-led industrialization accelerated the monopolistic and oligopolistic concentration of capital and economically profitable activities in the hands of a limited number of conglomerates."
You watch, that same government involved concentration of jobs and industries will be an Achilles heel for Korea -- just as too much government involvement will be in our U.S. industries as well.
You mean Caddy ISN'T the standard of the world? :surprise:
I'd argue that the best system (and yes, we don't have it all right, either) makes the best economy. Running a race to see which country can out cheat each other isn't sustainable, either.
I am against corporate welfare and for the prosecution and persecution of errant executives...
But to prosecute you need to prove the breaking of LAWS, not just behavior we might find morally reprehensible. Laws are supposed to be the basis of our judicial system, although recent US government behavior certainly challenges that assertion.
And Hyunkia subsidized by us too, via our defense of the region, not to mention the developmental aid given for years.
No arguments there, but that's a US problem, not a Korean problem.
But one is making much better.
BTW, never said GM was evil, just incompetent as an auto manufacturer. If GM cars and operations were "The Best" over those lost decades, no need for taxpayer support.
I support the better product.
Regards,
OW
So, we need C-11 II for GM and C! :shades:
Regards,
OW