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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    And I would never buy a car that was subsidized and protected in their business by the government of that country.
    Nor would I buy a car with a radical, aggressive union doing the building.


    Does that mean you won't be buying HynKia or GM? :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Did anyone think this was a good idea?

    Well, apparently the NEW General Motors management did. You know, the reformed, better company.

    Seems like too much of the old rot is still embedded within the company.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Like I'd ever take model name into account when buying a new car. Duh.

    Well regardless of what YOU would do, a lot of people do take that into account. Reputations matter to a lot of the market. So whether that matters to some, it is still important if the goal is to be a successful company. Good brand names are helpful, and tarnished brand names are boat anchors. Most companies don't abandon brand names with very positive market perceptions.

    Hence the Corvette name endures, while Chevette>>Cavalier>>Cobalt>>Cruze march progresses onward. At least the Cruze is clearly the best of that bunch.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    Well regardless of what YOU would do, a lot of people do take that into account

    Thank God I'm not a sheeple.

    Man, they had to bury that Cavalier name fast. Only used it for twenty-four consecutive model years.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    And the Echo replaced the Tercel
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2012
    Sounds like the Malibu is aiming squarely for the woman's market.

    "Our Chevy Malibu customer is very smart, very savvy," said Rebecca Waldmeir, lead creative designer for color and trim for Chevrolet passenger cars including the Malibu. "She doesn't want to sacrifice anything. She wants to indulge a little."

    Waldmeir said she often looks to the fashion industry to help her with colors and trim. She said the interior colors and texture and feel of the Malibu's leather seats were inspired by a luxury handbag.

    "Women play a significant role in who will be purchasing this vehicle," she said. "We just feel that having this collection will connect on a whole other level with them."

    All-new Chevy Malibu drives new clothing collection by Isaac Mizrahi (Detroit News)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    I think the interior of the '13 is better than the '12 and earlier...but I just can't get past the back seat legroom.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds like the ideal business model, pretty much. LOL
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But Cadillac is a luxury DIVISION of GM. Genesis and Equus are models

    Well, we know that they thought about making Genesis a division. Why else would an unrelated coupe and sedan carry the same name?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    GM has to give up on mild hybrids. They've never sold well, and never will.

    Who remembers the Saturn Vue Greenline? Or the Aura mild hybrid? We may be expensive, but at least mileage isn't that good!

    Just give up already.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    edited August 2012
    That is a recall, but thanks for not posting the Toyota recall that was 30 times larger earlier in the week.

    Ah, balance.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Well, we know that they thought about making Genesis a division. Why else would an unrelated coupe and sedan carry the same name?

    Wasn't Mazda going to try a luxury division at one time? I think it was going to be called "Amati" or something like that? IIRC, cars like the Mazda 929 and Millenia were originally slated for that brand.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2012
    Ford had both a huge recall and a sudden acceleration death in the news in the past week, but those are also off topic so why share them here?

    FYI I did share the Toyota recall news ... in the Toyota thread, where it belongs.

    5 days ago:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efda853/15695#MSG15695
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited August 2012
    Yup.

    They axed it but the cars survived.

    Remember the Millenia S' miller cycle engine? Interesting tech but bad mileage and I don't think people understood what it was (a blower).

    GM needs a better name/brand for its DI technology. You hear Ecotec and think of older domestic compacts.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/07/2013-chevrolet-spark-first-drive-review/

    What about stuffing the 1.4T in one and calling it the Spark SS?

    Heck, if they say the 500 is competition, that what it needs to match the 500 Abarth.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited August 2012
    Perhaps you would have been one to consider the Studebaker Dictator in the late 1930's...

    From Wikipedia...

    Consequences of the Dictator name

    In retrospect, the choice of the model name might seem unfortunate. Benjamin L. Alpers begins his history of American perceptions of dictators, Dictators, Democracy, and American Public Culture: Envisioning the Totalitarian Enemy, 1920s-1950s, with the introduction of the Studebaker Dictator: "There were, of course, some political problems connected with the name 'Dictator'. A number of the European monarchies to which Studebaker exported the car were wary of the moniker. Diplomatically, Studebaker marketed its Standard Six as the 'Director' in these countries. In the United States, apparently, the name appears initially to have caused no problems."[2]

    At the time, the only dictator that would have immediately come to an American mind was Benito Mussolini, whose popular image was one of audacity and strength, in spite of well-publicized fascist violence[2]. However the rise of Adolf Hitler in Germany tainted the word dictator. Studebaker abruptly discontinued the name 'Dictator' in 1937, resurrecting the Commander name which had been dropped in 1935. At that time, Raymond Loewy and Helen Dryden were working on new concepts for body design and customer appeal.

    Sorry, I just couldn't pass that one by... Lol!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Chrysler marketed a car called the DeSoto Diplomat in many export markets so I guess when it came to naming their cars they were, well, a bit more diplomatic about it!

    But then, there was the Dodge Crusader. Wonder if that got anyone's panties in a knot?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    I saw a beautiful Studebaker Dictator or two at least week's International Studebaker Drivers' Club meet. The name didn't bother me a bit ;).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    And the old time Chevy Confederate would offend the oversensitive today...although it might sell well in a few areas, as it likely did back in the day :shades:
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Dodge also reused the Diplomat name, not so long ago...1977-1989.

    I think it sold fairly well...
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    They sold pretty well in 1977-79, as an upscale compact/midsized car. But in 1980-81 sales took a serious dip. For 1982-89 they were mainly popular as taxis and police cars, and in that timeframe I think they only sold around 20-30,000 per year. But, because they were popular as police cars and taxis, you always saw them around.

    They were sturdy, durable cars that could take a lot of abuse, and were fairly cheap to fix. But on the down side, they were really too big and heavy for a 6-cyl engine, so for 1984 Chrysler gave up and made the V-8 standard. Fuel economy wasn't so hot, rated something like 16/22 in an era when something like a Caprice with the V-8 was more like 17/25. And they required premium fuel. One reason fuel economy was low was that they never offered an overdrive transmission. The plus side of that though, is that if the transmission needed to be rebuilt, it often cost about 1/3 that of what a Ford or GM 4-speed would cost, or even less.

    I had an '89 Gran Fury ex-copcar from 1998-2003. It wasn't a bad car. Pretty sturdy, although it tended to chew up the lightweight little starters they were using by that time, and the rebuilds just didn't last.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    Ford had both a huge recall and a sudden acceleration death in the news in the past week, but those are also off topic so why share them here?

    Other cars are routinely mentioned here. If folks think those manufacturers are vastly superior to GM, if a recall shows they are not, why not post that here as well?

    My post was directed at anythingbutgm...a balanced source if there ever was one. :)

    I was going to tell him that I had a photo of rear suspension breakage on a couple Toyotas that I just happened to drive by, but I didn't have the heart. :)

    Although at over 700K units, that seriously might not be that much of a stretch in this case!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    If you live in or near Philly and have a 50+ mile commute (one way or RT), please email PRedmunds.com before Friday, August 17, 2012 to be interviewed by a reporter.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If it adds to the discussion, it should be fine. I brought up the Greenline vehicles and suggested GM pursue a different strategy. The recall was brought up to show their costs were high as well.

    Sure it's old but it was a current topic. GM still makes mild hybrids, but getting few takers.

    Let's see the regular Malibus and how they do. The smaller back seat was a mistake.

    We have to wonder how good the Malibu could have been if GM didn't waste their efforts getting the Eco model to market first.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Don't know about how well the Eco model is selling, but it's being advertised somewhat heavily on the NBC evening shows during the Olympics...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,427
    When I was a little kid, back around maybe 1983-84 or so, I lived in a subdivision where some houses didn't have finished lawns yet. I remember a few doors down from us, someone had one of those early 80s Diplomats, and for whatever reason they always parked it on the unfinished lawn, near the house. I still think of yard parking whenever I see an old Mopar of that stye.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Regardless the name, Chevy economy cars were third class for the last few decades.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited August 2012
    Regardless. You can't compare a loosing luxury DIVISION of GM with 2 models from another company. Period. :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    Best-value, IMHO. And buying one helped keep thousands in my general area employed.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    "Mild Hybrid" strikes me as something designed by committee, not something that's going to take the marketplace by storm. You can't win by being risk adverse.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited August 2012
    That is a recall, but thanks for not posting the Toyota recall that was 30 times larger earlier in the week.

    Ah, balance.


    I wouldn't expect balance in a GM forum any more than I would in a Toyota forum. Duh. (Isn't that the saying around here? :blush: )
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    And the old time Chevy Confederate would offend the oversensitive today...although it might sell well in a few areas, as it likely did back in the day

    Do you think the rebadge of the Volt for Buick should be called the Buick Bolt? (ducks) :P
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Sure it's old but it was a current topic. GM still makes mild hybrids, but getting few takers.

    I just don't see GM's hybrid strategy doing very well. While Toyota has one technology, GM went and invested in 3 at a time they were going bankrupt. The mild hybrids are a joke and not worth it. The two-mode hybrid (do they sell any of those any more?) were way too expensive on Caddy SUVs that got terrible mileage and made it a bit better. Then there's the Volt - the best technology but of course in no way competitive in the marketplace.

    Toyota = 1 technology = market leader
    GM = 3 technologies = 3 market failures

    Not a good use of R&D capital. Heck, they could have just copied Toyota and done a lot better.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    The Tercel and Echo were always known as also-rans from Toyota. Not on the same playing field as excellent bullet proof Corollas and Camry's.

    The Cruze most definitely replaced the Cobalt, which most definitely replaced the Cavalier.

    24 years to change a name.... I guess that's how long it took GM to make a decision back then.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    is that if the transmission needed to be rebuilt, it often cost about 1/3 that of what a Ford or GM 4-speed would cost, or even less.

    The '95 Neon 3 speed auto cost me a bit over $1,000 to rebuild at about 60,000 miles.

    I suppose that if my DSG transmission in the Audi costs 3X as much to repair, it'll have to last me 180,000 to match Chrysler's "value." I'm over halfway there, and haven't had a single rebuild yet.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    edited August 2012
    I wouldn't expect balance in a GM forum any more than I would in a Toyota forum. Duh. (Isn't that the saying around here? )

    I don't know. I'm not a fan of Toyotas, so I don't post there. And I don't have a handle of 'anythingbuttoyota'. I wonder if he posted the Toyota recall there?

    I've said it before, but I think it's a real thing deserving of psychoanalysis when somebody breezes in just to post something negative, on a board for a product which they absolutely disdain (his handle says it all).

    But, as he indicated here earlier, guess I'm just a racist, "Buy 'Murican" purchaser of recent GM models.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    The '95 Neon 3 speed auto cost me a bit over $1,000 to rebuild at about 60,000 miles.

    Well, in my case, it was a matter of around $650 for a rebuilt RWD Torqueflite versus around $1800 to re-do one of those Ford or GM 4-speed automatics. And to add insult to injury, the Torqueflite was a sturdier transmission, anyway. The place I bought the Gran Fury from specialized in refurbishing old police cars, and the owner said that if the transmission went out, good used ones were common enough that they could just throw in another one (versus a ~$650 rebuild) for around $350-400, total.

    Somehow, I have a feeling that an Audi transmission is going to cost a lot more than just $3,000. I think a lot of these more complex transmissions can easily cost $4-6,000, if not more.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Somehow, I have a feeling that an Audi transmission is going to cost a lot more than just $3,000. I think a lot of these more complex transmissions can easily cost $4-6,000, if not more.

    I can live with that cost, because I likely won't ever incur it. Not to mention, a transmission change-out or rebuild isn't exactly a lunch hour in and out type job. Your likely going to be without vehicle for a week (or renting one).

    I do remember them saying that not all rebuilds were created equal in cost. That it depended on how many "hard" parts were shot and had to be replaced/repaired. When I got mine rebuilt, it was still driveable, so it couldn't have been at its worst yet.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    but I think it's a real thing deserving of psychoanalysis when somebody breezes in just to post something negative, on a board for a product which they absolutely disdain

    Here's the psychoanalysis:

    All it takes is a manufacturer selling you garbage and calling it a vehicle. Charging you thousands when it was worth pennies.

    Not standing behind the product and leaving you holding the bag. Losing your business for life and then stealing your money by taxing you to death and using those tax funds to fund their incompetent company.

    I'm shocked we don't have more shooting rampages targeted at these bailed-out companies offices and assembly plants. Instead movie theaters and churches get targeted.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I do remember them saying that not all rebuilds were created equal in cost. That it depended on how many "hard" parts were shot and had to be replaced/repaired. When I got mine rebuilt, it was still driveable, so it couldn't have been at its worst yet.

    It might be better to just get the whole thing rebuilt though, because if you replace just the completely worn out parts with new parts, I think that might cause the older parts to fail that much faster.

    One of my friends used to have a 1998 Tracker. It had a 5 year, 60K mile warranty. I remember the transmission went out around 20K, 40K, and just before 60K. Each time it went in for what they called an "overhaul". I'm convinced that they did just the bare minimum to get it running again, to limp it through the warranty period.

    Well, at 86,000 miles it failed again. I had him get it towed to a local transmission shop that I trusted (they rebuilt my '79 Newport, my uncle's '97 Silverado, and have serviced some of my other cars). They got it running again for about 60 bucks, but the mechanic said it probably wasn't long for this world.

    And, of course, it failed again, around the 92,000 mile mark. At that point, we found a shop that was willing to replace it with a used transmission that had 55,000 miles on it, for around $1100, with a 90 day warranty. I think the GM dealer wanted about $3,000 for a new one, which is crazy because it was just a 3-speed automatic. But a Japanese 3-speed automatic, so I guess that's why it was so expensive?

    Anyway, the torque converter lockup switch needed to be replaced, almost immediately, but the repair shop did that for free. And then, it was trouble-free for the remainder of the time he had it, from 92,000 miles on up to around 134,000. That was when he traded it for a 2006 Xterra.

    FWIW, when my uncle's '97 Silverado's transmission went out, it lost two of its four forward gears (I forget which two, I want to say second and fourth?) and reverse. So, it was still driveable, as long as you didn't have to back up! Or at least parked on a slope so you could let gravity do its job.

    When my '79 Newport's transmission failed, I was able to just put more fluid in it and that worked for awhile, but eventually it left me stranded. And thinking back, when the transmission on my '82 Cutlass Supreme went bad, it didn't fail completely, but started holding the lower gears too long, and getting reluctant to upshift.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,872
    Wow. Wouldn't your energy be better-served posting over on the Audi boards? It's bad to carry all that bitterness inside over a twenty-year old Neon.

    BTW, since when did Audi become a bastion of reliability?
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    >when did Audi become a bastion of reliability?

    VW has never been great, has it? Audi is VW.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Since never! Shame that A8 is so pretty and well-built of high quality materials. One major mechanical malady will instantly turn it into high-quality scrap since it won't be cost-effective to repair.

    Nothing is a bigger white elephant than a German luxury car out-of-warranty. Shady used car lots in marginal Lower NE Philly neighborhoods sell these cars to suckers trying to look rich for cheap. Hey, they do look pretty when they're broken-down outside your run-down rowhome or in the cratered parking lot of your low-rent apartment complex until the local hoodlums vandalize and steal parts off them! Sorry, but your assistant manager job at Staples isn't going to pay for a tune-up on a Teutonic tranny!
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    Shame that A8 is so pretty and well-built of high quality materials

    I remember reading a while ago about the state of the art Audi A8 aluminum body and how Audi would only allow around 15 Body shops in the entire country to do body work on them.

    I found it hilarious when Inside Line got their A8 back from an Audi certified body shop to repair a scratched door and the color was mismatched so badly it was easily seen on the online photo. I forgot what the bill was but it was ridiculously high.

    Good luck with that aluminum body. I know a collision shop that does work for a Chrylser dealer that is always repainting parts of aluminum bodied Prowlers. I've seen quite alot of paint bubbling on the vehicles he gets in.
    I know also that there are quite a few complaints about aluminum hoods and tailgates on Fords, Subarus and others.

    I read that the next Ford 150 will have an all aluminum body. I don't think
    that is a good idea.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I read that the next Ford 150 will have an all aluminum body. I don't think
    that is a good idea.


    You heard wrong.

    Ford is looking at using more aluminum in the F150 but all aluminum body isn't the plan.
  • greg128greg128 Member Posts: 546
    edited August 2012
    here is a $2785 repair for a minor scratch on a A8 passenger door.

    Audi mismatched door

    Apparently IL accepted that work. I don't think the average vehicle owner would have accepted that on a $10K vehicle let alone one with the sticker of the A8
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited August 2012
    A lot of manufacturers use aluminum body panels now. In fact, I believe the Nissan Altima sedan has been using aluminum hoods and trunk lids for several years, at least since 2008, and they don't seem to be having any unusual paint issues... At least, as far as I know...

    Heres a partial listing of makes using aluminum panels...

    Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Chrysler, BMW, Honda, Mercedes... Well, you get the idea...
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    As long as the part is something that you can just unbolt and throw away and replace, like a hood, door, fender, or trunklid, I don't think aluminum is too big of a deal. But, I guess if it's more structural, like the rear quarters, roof, cowl, rocker panels, etc, then that could get expensive.

    Chrysler experimented with aluminum on the 1975 Plymouth Feather Duster and Dodge Dart Lite. I think they made the underside bracing of the trunklid and hood out of aluminum, although the outer sheetmetal was still steel. They used aluminum in a few other places, and were able to shave something like 187 pounds off of the curb weight of the car.

    I don't know how much the aluminum helped, but with all the weight/fuel saving tricks they used on those cars, according to wikipedia at least, they managed a rating of 24 city/36 highway. Now, those are the old raw, unadjusted numbers, so they're not directly applicable to today's numbers. But, I imagine that adjusting for the way they rate cars today, that might come out to around 19/30?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    BTW, since when did Audi become a bastion of reliability?

    Since about the year 2000, as long as you do the proper maintenance.

    And twenty years, is it 2015 already, I must of missed a few years???

    I wouldn't have to have carried the bitterness inside for the last few years if they were allowed to go bankrupt already. I would have been able to celebrate the inevitable outcome for a company that does business the way GM and Chrysler do.

    Absent the bailouts, I'd of been able to let go already. The bailouts just doubled the resentment.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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